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The danger of Gerold Dayne


Son of Man

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On 8/12/2018 at 10:42 PM, Megorova said:

Lots of speculations ahead.

I think, that Gerold Dayne is working for Varys, and Varys is a descendant of Saera Targaryen, Aerion Brightflame Targaryen, Calla Blackfyre and Aegor Bittersteel Rivers (founder of Golden Company).

Varys promised to Gerold, that he will be given possition of general-commander of fAegon's and Varys' united armies, 250.000 soldiers. Varys probably knows, that Dawn of Daynes' is Azor Ahai's Lightbringer. And only Daynes can wield that sword (Jon Snow is 1/8 Dayne, thru his great great grandmother Queen Dyanna Dayne). So Varys is going to present Gerold, as new Azor Ahai. And Gerold's role is to steal Dawn from Starfall (though the sword, most likely, isn't there, since 283, it's in crypts under Winterfell), and lead Blackfyre army against whoever in Westeros won't support fAegon as new King of 7K. Probably Varys is also planning to marry Gerold to Arianne, and then to get rid of Doran, and to seize control over Dorne. Arianne has already rebelled against her father, so when she will be again given an opportunity to become ruler of Dorne, instead of obeying to Doran and doing nothing, then she will take that opportunity, even if it will mean, that she will have to marry with Gerold Dayne.

I love this idea. 

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 8/15/2018 at 2:59 AM, Leo of House Cartel said:

@Son of Man

Good question!

I'm pretty sold on the idea of The Daynes of High Hermitage being from Aerion Brightflame's line.

When little Maegor was passed over for the Throne, I reckon his nuncle Egg sent him to be raised by his maternal grandmother's family at Starfall.

As a compassionate individual, one can imagine Aegon V wanting to protect his brother's son from any potential mistreatment-or-manipulation - better to have the boy raised at Starfall by the honourable Daynes, than to risk him being growing up in the Red Keep, surrounded by politicians who might want to influence or harm Maegor.

Being the rightful heir, before he was passed over, Maegor could be a highly valuable tool for any power players who want to take the Throne - imagine him spending his youth hearing whispers about being "The Rightful King". Such a scenario could have spelled great trouble for Aegon The Unlikely's reign, especially considering the Blackfyres were still causing trouble.

As a big part of the reason that Maegor was passed over as king was the fear he may have inherited his father's madness, there's a strong chance that Aegon was advised to not allow him to be raised Targaryen. While it may sound cruel, Aerion Brightflame's son beign raised as a Dayne could do a lot to curtail the possibility of him "breaking the fingers of dragon lampooning puppeteers"or "trying to turn himself into a dragon by drinking wildfyre".

Going by this logic, I think High Hermitage was gifted to Maegor, who grew up as a Dayne, the public being convinced that he was a "child of a second son", or such. I've often said, the name "High Hermitage" implies a long wait, something that resonates well with Maegor being the rightful King.

As Maegor grew, there's also the possibility he was matched up with other Dayne females, to add a bit of dragon blood into the already powerful Dayne stock. Perhaps Maegor had daughters with a Dayne woman, with one of those daughters going on to marry the next heir to Starfall.

Flash forward a few generations and I reckon this is part of the reason Doran considers Gerold Dayne so dangerous. Whether or not Darkstar is aware of his own lineage is another question, however, I do think his bloodline also contains Martell DNA.

With the widow's peak, black streak in his hair and venom weaning, Darkstar might very well be the son of either the Red Viper, or the paramour loving Llewyn Martell.

Considering the current outrage amongst Dornish smallfolk, mainly due to the death of the beloved Oberyn, a skilled warrior like  Darkstar being revealed as a half-Martell could lead to some trying times for the Lords of Sunspear.

That said, I'm convinced Darkstar and Doran are working together.

 

 I really like this

funny how if in line of unbroken succession that technically would make "Dayne's" of High Hermitage the best claimants to the Throne via Targaryen succession  and have been lowkey living under Robert's reign

 

I'm not sure about them allowing Dayne's to marry Dayne's.. ,the Faith already tried going to war over Targaryens blatant incest, and we get to know they are the exception to the rule when they are permitted to do this. Could be Maegor was tacitly known to be Targaryen so could provide a match-up with a Dayne, but more likely they would've just found him a suitable non-incest wife if they successfully passed him off as a Dayne.

 

Which leads back to me thinking they wouldn't hide Maegors identity from him and he would have married into the Dayne family line which is why they look so much like Targs. I do know a lot of people speculate Valyrians and Dayne's sharing common ancestry back to before Battle Island when dragons were known to roam free in Westeros, which can be used adequately to explain Dayne's purple eyes, Valyrian hair, looks & features. 


When we start bringing in Martell DNA and Oberyn / Llewyn being potential fathers i think you are definitely heading in the wrong direction. Darkstar looking nothing like a Martell, Llewyn being KG & being all the way up in Kings Landing and reportedly having a paramour there has no reason to be around High Hermitage unless it was before he became KG.

 

Then Oberyn lamenting about how dangerous he is & that he should've killed him, surely he'd want to keep his only son close, (and wouldn't want to kinslay lol)? That & Darkstar is in his late twenties which doesn't give Oberyn much (if any?) time to have fathered him.

 

I'm one of those that does not think Doran is working with our  Gerold "Dayne" ..I do wonder how much manpower he can muster as Lord (knight?) of High Hermitage, we don't get to know how much land, income & revenues come with the castle, though we can deduce from how far away it is from Starfall that there would seem to be some holdings & towns that come along with it

 

in summarizing, the danger Doran sees in Darkstar is his ability to rouse the smallfolk against the impotent weak looking Prince Martell, and his fighting skill & cunning. A user earlier referenced him as a possible parallel to the Vulture King, which Darkstar definitely has the ability to do living in the same place (Red Mountains) as he did. All he needs to do is cross the Torrentine to his west where he can promptly lead forces into the Reach and start a war.

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On 8/14/2018 at 9:59 AM, Leo of House Cartel said:

@Son of Man

Good question!

I'm pretty sold on the idea of The Daynes of High Hermitage being from Aerion Brightflame's line.

When little Maegor was passed over for the Throne, I reckon his nuncle Egg sent him to be raised by his maternal grandmother's family at Starfall.

GRRM has already gone on record saying the daynes are not of Valyrian descent. However that was pre AFFC, so it is possible. That said I'm pretty certain that someone would have brought that up in the fiftyish years after the Great Council, especially during or after RR.

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Darkstar is definitely a secret Targ or descendant of a Targaryen. He has silver hair with a black streak. The only other characters we know of to possess a similar trait are Elaena Targaryen (silver hair with gold streak, interestingly she also had a dragon egg the same colour of her hair which also matches the description of one of Dany's dragon eggs) and Valarr Targaryen (brown hair with a silver/gold streak) 

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4 hours ago, Stuart Littlefinger said:

Darkstar is definitely a secret Targ or descendant of a Targaryen. He has silver hair with a black streak. The only other characters we know of to possess a similar trait are Elaena Targaryen (silver hair with gold streak, interestingly she also had a dragon egg the same colour of her hair which also matches the description of one of Dany's dragon eggs) and Valarr Targaryen (brown hair with a silver/gold streak) 

with GRRM confirming they're not of old Valryian stock,  I definitely agree Aerion's son being sent to his mothers house at Starfall has credence to it. It would explain Ashara & Darkstars purple eyes after Maegor being married into House Dayne. traditional Dayne's may have had blue eyes like Edric.

I don't have the written source at hand but i remember Gerold Dayne being described as having a cruel mouth and that bad stories are told about him but Arianne can't believe they are true because he's so attractive. Brightflame was known to be a bad person but very good looking, and  the son he had was named after Maegor "the cruel"

 

Something i came along the other day.. a Sword of the Morning called 'Davos Dayne'. apparently when Nymeria's Martell husband died she took an Uller from Hellholt as her spouse then a Dayne Sword of the Morning for her 3rd husband & had a son by him (who did not inherit as a Prince of Dorne due to Rhoynish primogeniture) but probably was the successor of House Dayne & Dawn. point being the Daynes & perhaps the Uller's have Nymeria as an ancestor.

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On 8/13/2018 at 7:20 AM, Bael's Bastard said:


That is not to say that there is no Targaryen ancestry somewhere in the ancestry of Ser Gerold or/and Lord Edric, but there is no basis for the theory that they are some secret or hidden son of Aerys or some other Targaryen.

I think he is Aerion's son Maegor's grandson. He is dangerous because of who he is, not because of his skill with a sword. Arianne practically shouts out his Targaryen ancestry when we first meet him. Doesn't he even have Valarr's bicolored hair in reverse? And there is that crazy sadistic streak that is straight out of Aerion's playbook.

The idea goes like this: if you where Egg and had the responsibility to place such a child when they grew up, where would you marry him off to? How about mom's family? Cousins you can trust to see he doesn't make trouble and try to cultivate those unhappy with Aegon V on the throne. Plenty of those types of little and big lords wandering around Westeros. High Hermitage is a great spot. Needs to have a daughter to lose the Targaryen name, so the move to Dorne may come in the next generation, but it is a solid plan to control and isolate a dangerous relative.

I just think Ser Gerold got the idea that by starting a new war between the Lannisters and the Martells he might cause enough chaos to reopen his claim to the throne. Another thought exercise from the past.

So, no, not hidden or secret in the way you mean. Just the crazy relative that no one talks about.

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1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

I think he is Aerion's son Maegor's grandson. He is dangerous because of who he is, not because of his skill with a sword. Arianne practically shouts out his Targaryen ancestry when we first meet him. Doesn't he even have Valarr's bicolored hair in reverse? And there is that crazy sadistic streak that is straight out of Aerion's playbook.

The idea goes like this: if you where Egg and had the responsibility to place such a child when they grew up, where would you marry him off to? How about mom's family? Cousins you can trust to see he doesn't make trouble and try to cultivate those unhappy with Aegon V on the throne. Plenty of those types of little and big lords wandering around Westeros. High Hermitage is a great spot. Needs to have a daughter to lose the Targaryen name, so the move to Dorne may come in the next generation, but it is a solid plan to control and isolate a dangerous relative.

I just think Ser Gerold got the idea that by starting a new war between the Lannisters and the Martells he might cause enough chaos to reopen his claim to the throne. Another thought exercise from the past.

So, no, not hidden or secret in the way you mean. Just the crazy relative that no one talks about.

In Feast, Darkstar has no idea about [fake] Aegon at this point, so these actions seem consistent if he were to make a play. If Dorne & the Lannisters head to war, by the time Daenerys gets to Westeros everyone will be pretty weak on their knees. I don't think he can make a claim by himself but he could (past tense) convince Dany of his ancestry pretty easily on his looks alone & let her know they should carry on the Targaryen line together, or something obnoxious to that effect.

 

We know Dany is susceptible to being seduced by an irresistible badass like Darkstar. But as it is now in the story with Aegon's invasion I like this pet idea of him doing a Vulture King. Coming down out of the Red Mountains by crossing the Torrentine to the west with Dayne men-at-arms, then sweeping in on the Reach where they should have no ready fighters, instigating a war. This leads to him linking up with the Golden Company &  Aegon. Even if Mathis Rowan defects to Aegon's cause the Tyrells still have at least 2 armies, one under Garlan & the other under Mace, with the ability to raise more men from the Reach.

 

I don't count the Hightowers or Redwynes or their vassals in those forces under Tyrell as i'm pretty sure neither sent men with Mace or Renly and clearly have their own problems dealing with Euron's potential conquest of the Arbor and Oldtown. Cersei had the Redwyne twins hostage so they never sent men to Mace, and Hightower didn't send troops with Renly

 

I think it's possible he could also form an alliance with Euron if this all pans out. They would be in the same vicinity

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On 8/13/2018 at 4:46 AM, Son of Man said:

So why is this guy dangerous?  Because of who he is.  One man skilled at swords is not too dangerous.  What about this man make him the most dangerous man in Dorne?  The only way he can be this dangerous is having a claim, if he is the secret son of Aerys.

I agree he is dangerous because of his claim, but not because he is bastard of Aerys. I am almost sure Gerold Dayne is descendant of Maegor, son of Brightflame. Dyanna Dayne was Aerion‘s and Egg‘s mother, so house Dayne was simply obvious choice for rising and hiding baby Maegor.

 

On 8/14/2018 at 5:59 PM, Leo of House Cartel said:

As Maegor grew, there's also the possibility he was matched up with other Dayne females, to add a bit of dragon blood into the already powerful Dayne stock. Perhaps Maegor had daughters with a Dayne woman, with one of those daughters going on to marry the next heir to Starfall. 

This is probably most plausible scenario. Gerold is both Dayne and descendant of Aerion Targaryen.

On 8/14/2018 at 5:59 PM, Leo of House Cartel said:

Whether or not Darkstar is aware of his own lineage is another question, however, I do think his bloodline also contains Martell DNA.

It seems Darkstar knows about his claim. I think that is exactly what he means when he talks about „weaning on venom“. Venom is Maegor‘s grudge against Aegon and his descendants who have deposed him. Btw, in 300AC Maegor can be still alive, he is only 68 years old.

There was also a hint Gerold was thinking about himself as a ruler:

Quote

"Prince Oberyn was full of stories." Garin had been with them as well that day; he was Arianne's milk brother, and they had been inseparable since before they learned to walk. "He told about Prince Garin, I remember, the one that I was named for."

"Garin the Great," offered Drey, "the wonder of the Rhoyne."

"That's the one. He made Valyria tremble."

"They trembled," said Ser Gerold, "then they killed him. If I led a quarter of a million men to death, would they call me Gerold the Great?" He snorted. "I shall remain Darkstar, I think. At least it is mine own."

It seemed like Gerold was thinking about his claim, but realized he couldn‘t achieve it without massive bloodshed. It seemed he didn‘t find his ambition worthy of thousands of deaths.

It seems the guy has a conscience in contrary what Martells say about him. I even doubt he maimed Myrcella, more likely Doran has framed him.

On 8/13/2018 at 5:42 AM, Megorova said:

I think, that Gerold Dayne is working for Varys, and Varys is a descendant of Saera Targaryen, Aerion Brightflame Targaryen, Calla Blackfyre and Aegor Bittersteel Rivers (founder of Golden Company).

I think there are pretty good chances that Varys is descendant of Aerion. Aerion was described as promiscuous, so he likely sired bunch of bastards during his exile in Essos (here).

Gerold could be useful to Varys as claimant.  Gerold's claim challenges claims of all Egg's descendants. On the other hand, Gerold‘s claim is worthless without supporting military force, but I can‘t see how he could rise an army on his own.

Nevertheless, Gerold was thinking about leading an army (quote above). Why? Maybe someone made him an offer? Varys could be the one who could promise army to Darkstar. At least I can‘t think of anybody else. The problem is, Varys already has a claimant, fAegon. Maybe Gerold is Varys‘es plan B or C?

On 9/14/2018 at 10:35 PM, lrresistable said:

That & Darkstar is in his late twenties which doesn't give Oberyn much (if any?) time to have fathered him.

I don‘t really believe Darkstar is Red Viper‘s son, but Oberyn‘s age is not a problem. Obara is probably even older than Gerold. She was born when Oberyn was 14 or 15.

There was also a paramour of lord Yronwood, whom Oberyn bedded when he was 16. If she has a child by him, he has to be 26-27 years old in 300bc.

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One more wild thought:

1 hour ago, Pukisbaisals said:

Varys could be the one who could promise army to Darkstar. At least I can‘t think of anybody else.

Maybe it was not Varys, but Doran who pressed Gerold to pursue his claim to the Iron throne? And when Gerold refused because he wanted "to remain Darkstar" he was condemned, framed for maiming Myrcella and  targeted by Areo Hotah and Balon Swan.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 8/14/2018 at 7:44 AM, kleevedge said:

I always had a feeling Darkstar was a descendant of the Vulture king 

 

On 8/14/2018 at 10:00 AM, kleevedge said:

I don't really know, I don't have any solid reasons just small similarities. Both being half mad, Vulture king slicing off dondarrions nose and Darkstar slicing off Myrcellas ear, both starting an uprising or at least darkstar trying to. It's not very convincing but just a feeling I got when a read about him. While he may or may not be the blood of the vulture king i feel like he'll play a similar role

fun fact to add, a king vulture is described as being mainly white, with black streaks, and dark eyes, so Gerold Dayne kinda looks like a King Vulture

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On ‎8‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 10:42 PM, Megorova said:

Lots of speculations ahead.

I think, that Gerold Dayne is working for Varys, and Varys is a descendant of Saera Targaryen, Aerion Brightflame Targaryen, Calla Blackfyre and Aegor Bittersteel Rivers (founder of Golden Company).

Varys promised to Gerold, that he will be given possition of general-commander of fAegon's and Varys' united armies, 250.000 soldiers. Varys probably knows, that Dawn of Daynes' is Azor Ahai's Lightbringer. And only Daynes can wield that sword (Jon Snow is 1/8 Dayne, thru his great great grandmother Queen Dyanna Dayne). So Varys is going to present Gerold, as new Azor Ahai. And Gerold's role is to steal Dawn from Starfall (though the sword, most likely, isn't there, since 283, it's in crypts under Winterfell), and lead Blackfyre army against whoever in Westeros won't support fAegon as new King of 7K. Probably Varys is also planning to marry Gerold to Arianne, and then to get rid of Doran, and to seize control over Dorne. Arianne has already rebelled against her father, so when she will be again given an opportunity to become ruler of Dorne, instead of obeying to Doran and doing nothing, then she will take that opportunity, even if it will mean, that she will have to marry with Gerold Dayne.

This is more than speculation.  This is you rewriting George R.R. Martin's story. 

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On 8/14/2018 at 10:59 AM, Leo of House Cartel said:

@Son of Man

Good question!

I'm pretty sold on the idea of The Daynes of High Hermitage being from Aerion Brightflame's line.

When little Maegor was passed over for the Throne, I reckon his nuncle Egg sent him to be raised by his maternal grandmother's family at Starfall.

As a compassionate individual, one can imagine Aegon V wanting to protect his brother's son from any potential mistreatment-or-manipulation - better to have the boy raised at Starfall by the honourable Daynes, than to risk him being growing up in the Red Keep, surrounded by politicians who might want to influence or harm Maegor.

Being the rightful heir, before he was passed over, Maegor could be a highly valuable tool for any power players who want to take the Throne - imagine him spending his youth hearing whispers about being "The Rightful King". Such a scenario could have spelled great trouble for Aegon The Unlikely's reign, especially considering the Blackfyres were still causing trouble.

As a big part of the reason that Maegor was passed over as king was the fear he may have inherited his father's madness, there's a strong chance that Aegon was advised to not allow him to be raised Targaryen. While it may sound cruel, Aerion Brightflame's son beign raised as a Dayne could do a lot to curtail the possibility of him "breaking the fingers of dragon lampooning puppeteers"or "trying to turn himself into a dragon by drinking wildfyre".

Going by this logic, I think High Hermitage was gifted to Maegor, who grew up as a Dayne, the public being convinced that he was a "child of a second son", or such. I've often said, the name "High Hermitage" implies a long wait, something that resonates well with Maegor being the rightful King.

As Maegor grew, there's also the possibility he was matched up with other Dayne females, to add a bit of dragon blood into the already powerful Dayne stock. Perhaps Maegor had daughters with a Dayne woman, with one of those daughters going on to marry the next heir to Starfall.

Flash forward a few generations and I reckon this is part of the reason Doran considers Gerold Dayne so dangerous. Whether or not Darkstar is aware of his own lineage is another question, however, I do think his bloodline also contains Martell DNA.

With the widow's peak, black streak in his hair and venom weaning, Darkstar might very well be the son of either the Red Viper, or the paramour loving Llewyn Martell.

Considering the current outrage amongst Dornish smallfolk, mainly due to the death of the beloved Oberyn, a skilled warrior like  Darkstar being revealed as a half-Martell could lead to some trying times for the Lords of Sunspear.

That said, I'm convinced Darkstar and Doran are working together.

 

His lineage does not even have to be this complicated, meaning this is no need for a secret identity or name switch in this situation.

If Maegor married A Danye woman who was already the Lady of High Hermitage, any children they may have had would be Daynes, not Targs, whether there father changed his own name or not.

I agree with you that darkstar is dorans spy, simply because I can't think of who else in Arrianes group that it could be.

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3 hours ago, Back door hodor said:

His lineage does not even have to be this complicated, meaning this is no need for a secret identity or name switch in this situation.

If Maegor married A Danye woman who was already the Lady of High Hermitage, any children they may have had would be Daynes, not Targs, whether there father changed his own name or not.

I agree with you that darkstar is dorans spy, simply because I can't think of who else in Arrianes group that it could be.

I think he could've used darkstar as a spy, but darkstar is not loyal to the Martell's. I believe him attacking Myrcella was an attempt to start a feud between Lannister and Martell. I feel his ultimate goal is control of Dorne.

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6 hours ago, kleevedge said:

I think he could've used darkstar as a spy, but darkstar is not loyal to the Martell's. I believe him attacking Myrcella was an attempt to start a feud between Lannister and Martell. I feel his ultimate goal is control of Dorne.

I dont disagree, he has higher ambitions.....to add to my original posts...I though of another possibility for the spy, Arys Oakheart, so basically I could see a situation where his conscience gets the better of him.

I also could totally she Doran lieing to Arriane and telling her Arys is his spy, even if he isn't,  as like a lesson to trust no one

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On 8/14/2018 at 12:00 PM, kleevedge said:

I don't really know, I don't have any solid reasons just small similarities. Both being half mad, Vulture king slicing off dondarrions nose and Darkstar slicing off Myrcellas ear, both starting an uprising or at least darkstar trying to. It's not very convincing but just a feeling I got when a read about him. While he may or may not be the blood of the vulture king i feel like he'll play a similar role

Agreed.  The Vulture King phenomenon has occurred over multiple generations and Martin has confirmed that people holding the title have come from different houses within the Red Mountains.  Its not hereditary, but cultural within the Red Mountain Stony Dornish.  My personal tinfoil is that their is a vulture flavored Old God up in the mountains able to convince worshipers to lead a mob in battle every couple generations.  I see parallels between the face slicing and limb chopping of the Vulture King to that of Vargo Hoat who wore a goat helm in the fashion of the Black Goat which is worshiped in his home town of Qohor.  I would also consider Myrcella as having kings blood, so if Darkstar was drawing blood as a sacrifice, then he may have an idea of how to use it.

With Areo Hotah heading into the Red Mountains looking for Darkstar, I am one of the few who is looking forwards to those chapters in Winds.

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  • 5 months later...
On 8/13/2018 at 10:20 AM, Bael's Bastard said:

Ser Gerold Dayne's identity is not a mystery to be revealed. He wasn't "given the Dayne name to hide his real identity." He is a Dayne, a cousin of Ser Arthur Dayne, a knight of Starfall whose castle is High Hermitage.

With Ser Arthur and his lord brother dead, Ser Gerold is the only known living Dayne other than the preteen Lord Edric, who has disappeared into the Riverlands after having spent the years before that in the Stormlands with Lord Beric Dondarrion.

With Lord Edric missing with Lord Beric, Ser Gerold could very well attempt to claim Starfall for himself, and could perhaps even claim the last surviving sibling of Ser Arthur, Lady Allyria.

Aside from his possible claim to Starfall, he exists in the context of a Dorne that has been in a volatile state for over fifteen years since the Lannisters murdered Princess Elia and his children Aegon and Rhaenys.

Prince Doran is barely holding Dorne together against pressure from many to go to war against the Iron Throne, and Ser Gerold has just attempted to murder Princess Myrcella, and force Dorne into a war against the Iron Throne.

There is no need for some convoluted and baseless theory about Ser Gerold's identity to explain why Doran thinks or states that he is the most dangerous man in Dorne.

That is not to say that there is no Targaryen ancestry somewhere in the ancestry of Ser Gerold or/and Lord Edric, but there is no basis for the theory that they are some secret or hidden son of Aerys or some other Targaryen.

The second Daenerys Targaryen wed Prince Maron Martell a little over a century before the present time, and her children and descendants no doubt found their way into other Dornish houses.

And it's not inconceivable that Maekar (I)'s wife Dyanna Dayne already had Targaryen ancestry from some other source from before Maron wed Daenerys, such as a descendant of the daughters of Garmund Hightower and Princess Rhaena.

it is possible he will claim Starfall. most people probably think Edric dead anyway

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On 9/14/2018 at 6:14 PM, Stuart Littlefinger said:

Darkstar is definitely a secret Targ or descendant of a Targaryen. He has silver hair with a black streak. The only other characters we know of to possess a similar trait are Elaena Targaryen (silver hair with gold streak, interestingly she also had a dragon egg the same colour of her hair which also matches the description of one of Dany's dragon eggs) and Valarr Targaryen (brown hair with a silver/gold streak) 

Didn't Baelor have the same hair color pattern?  He was part Dornish.  

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