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The Map Guy

The Meereenese Knot started at the Tower of Joy in 2005

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Hi everyone, I am new here and I want to share a big theory I discovered years ago. I was eventually disappointed until I discovered a big coincidence involving the year 2005.
 
It's a very long theory, its a fun theory, but it requires some patience in you as readers, but here is the TL;DR summary for the lazy readers:
 
Basically GRRM wrote R+L=J&M twins for AGOT, ACOK & ASOS.
A bigger story from a bigger author came out in 2005 that is almost identical to the R+L=J&M story, and GRRM was put in a bad position.
2005 AFFC omitted Meera related-chapters to buy some time, and the twins story disappeared six years later in 2011 ADWD.
 
Meera Reed's plot was the Meereenese Knot. The R+L=J&M knot was cut in half, leaving us just R+L=J. The story of Howland protecting Meera Reed from should of been a "mirrored read" to the story of Ned protecting Jon.
 
 
Now for the details..........
 
For the sake of this post, lets just assume R + L = J is true.
My question is, why can't R + L = J & M twins be true as well?
Why can't Meera Reed be a Stark-Targaryen like Jon Snow?
 
Ned Stark & Howland Reed were the only survivors of ToJ, and Meera & Jon are the same age. Timeline wise...it is very possible.
Appearance & personality...Bran had compared Meera to Arya Stark, and Arya Stark had been compared to Lyanna Stark.
 
Most people will argue:
A: Lack of foreshadowing
B: She has green eyes
C: It's too Star Wars....Luke & Leia
 
I will address all of them.
 
A: Lack of foreshadowing?
Not in AGOT 1996, ACOK 1998, ASOS 2000
 
Here are examples of some foreshadowing, (I have others, but not as convincing as these):
 
1996 AGOT
Quote

"They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it."

- Eddard I, AGOT
Let's try this:
"[Ned & Howland] had found [Jon] still holding [Meera's] body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken [Meera's] hand from [Jon's]. Ned could recall none of it [at the moment because he was standing next to Robert in the Winterfell crypts]." 
This was Ned's brief flashback to ToJ while talking to Robert. Note word-arrangement that Howland took "her" hand from his, not "his" hand from her...quick symbolism that he took Meera.
I know this is taken out of context, but I can get more technical if you want me to in regards to this line...but I don't want to make my post longer than needed.
 
1998 ACOK
Quote

"At the foot of the hall, the doors open and a gust of cold air made the torches flame brighter for an instant "

- Bran III, ACOK

No, this is not a Jon Stark-Targaryen's foreshadowing....but it is Meera Reed's very FIRST introduction.
 
Also in ACOK, Meera wields Rickard Stark's sword in the crypts, which would be her grandfather.
 
2000 ASOS
GRRM reminds us that Meera still has Bran's grandfather's sword...which would also be her grandfather.
 
Knight of the Laughing Tree
Let's assume the theory is true where the Knight of the Laughing Tree is how Rhaegar and Lyanna fell in love. This means Howland Reed's cowardice at the Tourney of Harrenhal was the "butterfly effect" to: the R+L tragic love story, a rebellion that cost thousands of lives including Rhaegar, the birth of Jon & Meera, and the death of Lyanna. How fitting for GRRM to write a story about a puny cowardly man, whose his lack of action caused major indirect reactions. Wouldn't GRRM give this man a more important role than just being a witness at ToJ? Wouldn't it be a better redemption story arc if he protected and raised the orphan princess of the woman that saved his life and defended his honor...which eventually & indirectly led to a war and her passing? I think so.
 
2005 AFFC 
Bran & Jon Chapters were omitted, no Meera as well
 
2011 ADWD
GRRM stops writing R+L=J&M, no more twins foreshadowing clues, doesn't even remind us that Meera still has Rickard Stark's sword. No hints from Bloodraven in the cave.
 
 
B: She has Green Eyes
There is one far-fetch theory in ADWD that may address Meera Stark having green eyes.
Bran, with Stark blood, won the lottery of being one in a thousand wargs to also be a green seer.
Stark blood has some magic from the blood of the Children of Forest.
Perhaps Meera, with Stark blood, won the lottery of having green eyes, which is rare case that some Children of the Forest had. The Children typically had golden eyes, with rare cases of green or red.
 
The following is not hard proof, but I have a concept that puts it in question.
Jon is a proven Stark and a questionable Targaryen. If he had purple eyes, this would give away R+L=J immediately, so he was given grey eyes to hide the Targaryen feature.
Meera is a questionable Stark and a questionable Targaryen. GRRM cannot give her purple or grey eyes. GRRM gives her green eyes and represents her from Greywater Watch.
Greywatch Watch is arguably the most mysterious place south of the Wall in Westeros with humans. Its a magical place where green seers exist or use to exist.
Note the word play:
Greywater Watch ~ Grey eyes
Green-seers ~ Green eyes
Doesn't that seem suspicious? I'll give you a better one.
 
Greywater Watch is a mystical swamp land with green swamp water...why is it not call Greenwater Watch?
The city's name is inconsistent with the rest of Westeros city names, where it would have a geographical reference (like Riverrun), a climate reference (Winterfell), or a historical reference (Casterly Rock).
I know Greywater may be a reference to an older work of GRRM, but its a green swamp...add the color 'green' to its name or don't name it a color at all. GRRM is doing something intentional here by hiding something in plain sight, but I can't pinpoint it...but Meera has green eyes, instead grey eyes, which would make R+L=J&M too obvious.
 
C: Its too Star Wars
Yes....yes it is.
A noble person falls in love with a royal person and starts a tragic love story. The mother dies giving birth to a set of twin prince and princess. The twins are separate and protected by heroes from the wrath of a new empire. The twins have a big destiny to fulfill.
 
Is this Luke & Leia...or Jon & Meera?
 
Meera appeared in 1998 ACOK, 2000 ASOS, 2011 ADWD...but not 2005 AFFC.
When do we find out Luke & Leia's mother died giving to birth to them? In Star Wars - Revenge of the Sith.......2005.
Just a big coincidence in 2005? I'll do you one better, how about 10 days?
May 19th, 2005 - Revenge of the Sith
May 29th, 2005 - GRRM issues an announcement about omitting characters in AFFC
When AFFC came out later in 2005, no Jon, no Bran...and no Meera.
GRRM claims ADWD will come out pretty soon after, but it didn't come out until 2011. 
 
What I said above in Part C are FACTS.
With all these coincidences, my theory is that GRRM, who was not as popular as George Lucas in 2005, did not want to put himself in a position where he is accused of plagiarizing Lucas.
In AFFC, he omits characters that are related to R+L=J&M, to buy some time on how to proceed with the twin stuff...and eventually chose to abandon it.
In 2011, he blames all the years of publication delay on the Meereenese Knot.
Not everyone was happy with the explanation and the results in Meereen.
I believe this explanation and his writing for Meereen was just a secondary response.
The primary response of the Meereenese Knot is Meera's Reed plot (clever word play btw).
He solved the burdensome knot of R+L=J&M, by cutting it in half, leaving us with just R+L=J now.
He could not give the real reason for the knot because it would reveal R+L=J prematurely.
 
But I personally don't think GRRM would of made Meera the third head of the dragon, but I feel like she was originally one of probably four other secret Targaryens in Westeros, including Jon, Jaime & Cersei (another set of twins).
 
If R+L=J&M was truly possible from 1996 to 2005, then this could be the cause of the publication delays. Maybe if he stuck with the twins story, he could of finished ASOIAF by now instead of scrambling everything to avoid it.
 
I have another theory of how GRRM had twins his head since 1991...that one needs a more open mind, but it will be a fresh new way to look at ASOIAF. I'll save that one for another time. 
 
So what you guys think? And before you give me shade of why R+L=J&M is impossible and use only ADWD as reference........well, that was my point.
 
Fun fact:
Meera's supposedly mother was not given backstory or even mention until the appendix of October-2005 AFFC.
Her mother's name in the appendix is...........Jyana.

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32 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:
Basically GRRM wrote R+L=J&M twins for AGOT, ACOK & ASOS.
A bigger story from a bigger author came out in 2005 that is almost identical to the R+L=J&M story, and GRRM was put in a bad position.
2005 AFFC omitted Meera related-chapters to buy some time, and the twins story disappeared six years later in 2011 ADWD.
 
Meera Reed's plot was the Meereenese Knot. The R+L=J&M knot was cut in half, leaving us just R+L=J. The story of Howland protecting Meera Reed from should of been a "mirrored read" to the story of Ned protecting Jon.

Nope. not at all. The Mereneese Knot, while building in 2005, is about Meereen and Dany's plot. I get it, we are pushing a decade since the last book, but just because Mereen and Meera are similar does not mean they are related. At all. In any way. 

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I know...but what I am saying in my post is that the stuff in Meereen is secondary.

The primary was to cover up R+L=J&M twins.

If I can convince everyone that R+L=J&M was possible before 2005, I think I have a point here.

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1 hour ago, The Map Guy said:

I know...but what I am saying in my post is that the stuff in Meereen is secondary.

The primary was to cover up R+L=J&M twins.

If I can convince everyone that R+L=J&M was possible before 2005, I think I have a point here.

First of all, George has been quite clear that the Meereenese knot is about Meereen and Dany's plot there. That is literally it. End of Story.
The Jon and Meera being twins is crackpot though and has zero hints in the books as opposed to R+L=J which has tons of hints. 

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11 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

First of all, George has been quite clear that the Meereenese knot is about Meereen and Dany's plot there. That is literally it. End of Story.
The Jon and Meera being twins is crackpot though and has zero hints in the books as opposed to R+L=J which has tons of hints. 

....I just made a post with just half the hints I know of for R+L=J&M

The twins theory is something everyone over looked but NEVER fully researched. If you do a re-read of ASOIAF and actually looked for the Meera Stark-Targaryen clues in AGOT, ACOK & ASOS, you'll be surprised. It's not in AFFC & ADWD because of the Meereenese Knot.

Here is an example of a R+L=J&M clue, Meera Reed's very first introduction:

Quote

"At the foot of the hall, the doors open and a gust of cold air made the torches flame brighter for an instant "

-Bran III, ACOK

The Meereenese Knot has two meanings: the stuff with Dany & Meereen (secondary)...and Meera at the Tower of Joy (primary).

GRRM cannot confess to Meera at TOJ because it will also reveal R+L=J before it is officially written in the books.

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There is no basis in the books for the theory that Jon and Meera are twins, or that Meera is descended from Lyanna or Rhaegar. Meera is a short crannogwoman who, despite being a woman grown, is no taller than her thirteen year old brother Jojen, who is himself no more than two or three inches taller than nine year old Bran.

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So I don't wanna dismiss you idea out right buuut why would Howland take Meera in as his trueborn daughter instead of Ned taking her to Winterfell?

If Ned is going to deal with all the fallout from presenting Jon as his bastard why not bring Meera too? Cat is going to be, given the culture, reasonable pissed. Having twins won't make her that much more angry with him. Compared to the peace of mind of having both of Lyanna's kids around to keep safe.

Also if Ned is willing to give away Meera to Howland to deal with he might away give away Jon and have a happy trout to come home to.

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Separating the Twins will make it harder to find them...just like Luke & Leia...and just like Bran & Rickon in ACOK.

A dying Maester Ludwin suggested to separate Stark siblings after the Winterfell sack.........and also........Meera happened to be in that same party.

This was another R+L=J&M foreshadowing I discovered in ACOK.

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12 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

Here is an example of a R+L=J&M clue, Meera Reed's very first introduction:

That quote requires quite the leap to make it about Jon and Meera being twins. I get that it is far easier to make those leaps after nearly a decade between books, but they are still dead wrong 

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The issue is that I have yet to see ONE single piece of evidence/foreshadowing for Meera being a secret Targ.  None of the things quoted in the OP are remotely indicative of being foreshadowing for Meera being a Targ IMO- the theory basically boils down to Howland being present at the TOJ and Meera being a similar age to Jon.

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17 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

So I don't wanna dismiss you idea out right buuut why would Howland take Meera in as his trueborn daughter instead of Ned taking her to Winterfell?

If Ned is going to deal with all the fallout from presenting Jon as his bastard why not bring Meera too? Cat is going to be, given the culture, reasonable pissed. Having twins won't make her that much more angry with him. Compared to the peace of mind of having both of Lyanna's kids around to keep safe.

Also if Ned is willing to give away Meera to Howland to deal with he might away give away Jon and have a happy trout to come home to.

/thread 

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14 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

There is no basis in the books for the theory that Jon and Meera are twins, or that Meera is descended from Lyanna or Rhaegar. Meera is a short crannogwoman who, despite being a woman grown, is no taller than her thirteen year old brother Jojen, who is himself no more than two or three inches taller than nine year old Bran.

Meera is short like Arya Stark, and Arya Stark was described similarly to Lyanna Stark.

In TWOIAF, people from Greywater Watch are described to be malnourished....which probably shorten Meera's already innate short-height.

Perhaps if Meera was raised in Winterfell, she would be a little bit taller? I dunno, its speculation.

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11 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

The issue is that I have yet to see ONE single piece of evidence/foreshadowing for Meera being a secret Targ.  None of the things quoted in the OP are remotely indicative of being foreshadowing for Meera being a Targ IMO- the theory basically boils down to Howland being present at the TOJ and Meera being a similar age to Jon.

My intentions are to show that the twin clues in AGOT, ACOK, & ASOS.

My whole post was based on how the twin stuff died out with the Meereenese Knot in AFFC & ADWD.

I personally feel like its a lot of clues for twins in just three books, esp. since Meera does not get the same screen time as Jon Snow. 

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10 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

That quote requires quite the leap to make it about Jon and Meera being twins. I get that it is far easier to make those leaps after nearly a decade between books, but they are still dead wrong 

I am wrong.

My intentions are to show that the twin clues are in AGOT, ACOK, & ASOS.

My whole post was based on how the twin stuff died out with the Meereenese Knot in AFFC & ADWD.

I personally feel like its a lot of clues for twins in just three books, esp. since Meera does not get the same screen time as Jon Snow. 

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Just like most crackpot theories it's certainly fun to look into, but I personally don't see it. Alot of the things you pointed out seem like quite a stretch. 

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1 minute ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

well,  articulated why this crackpot would not work with what we know of Ned so yeah.

If one sibling is found and killed, the blood line survives with the other one. Didn't something like this happened in a TV show we know?

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