The Meereenese Knot started at the Tower of Joy in 2005

[kissdbyfire]

2 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Separating the Twins will make it harder to find them...just like Luke & Leia...and just like Bran & Rickon in ACOK.

A dying Maester Ludwin suggested to separate Stark siblings after the Winterfell sack.........and also........Meera happened to be in that same party.

This was another R+L=J&M foreshadowing I discovered in ACOK.

Harder to find? There's no one looking.

 

[The Map Guy]

15 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

George Lucas is a crappy writer. Luke and Leia were supposed to be the romantic couple as of A New Hope in 1977, but afterward, focus groups (pre internet poll techniques to judge the popularity of things) overwhelmingly wanted Leia to get with Han so Empire Strikes Back in 1980 was re-written for Leia and Han to get together. 

Agreed

Perhaps with Chaos Theory/Butterfly Effect, George Lucas is responsible for the ASOAIF delays and why we have too much time in our hands

[The Map Guy]

13 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Harder to find? There's no one looking.

 

Ehh........Maester Ludwins and Osha's words

[Megorova]

Meera is daughter of Howland Reed and Ashara Dayne. And she is younger than Jon. Howland impregnated Ashara, when he was at Starfall, looking for Lyanna. Though at that time Lyanna and Rhaegar has already departed from Starfall, and went north. Though Lyanna got stuck in Dornish mountains, because of her pregnancy, and Rhaegar had to leave her there. The place where Jon was born, was named by Rhaegar, the Tower of Joy, because that's where Rhaegar and Lyanna realised, that she's pregnant.

When Lyanna gave birth to Jon, there were other people there - Ashara, wet nurse Wylla, and maester Marwyn (who performed cesarean section on Lyanna, when she was unable to give birth to Jon on her own).

[kissdbyfire]

24 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

Ehh........Maester Ludwins and Osha's words

Yes, they were talking about Bran and Rickon. Splitting up Lyanna's "twins" (they're not though) because they'd be harder to find implies there'd be someone - anyone! - looking for them, and we know there's no one looking for Lyanna's kids or Rhaegar's kids. 

[The Map Guy]

20 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yes, they were talking about Bran and Rickon. Splitting up Lyanna's "twins" (they're not though) because they'd be harder to find implies there'd be someone - anyone! - looking for them, and we know there's no one looking for Lyanna's kids or Rhaegar's kids. 

Its a 'just in case' thing.

If Robert found out, best believe he will turn every rock over in Westeros to smash the twin children of Lyanna & Rhaegar.

If Robert found out just only about Ned & Jon, Robert would kill Jon.....but he wouldn't know about Meera at least.

 

Anyways, my significance of Maester Ludwin saying to split the Stark siblings was that he said it in the presence of Meera...who would had gone through the same thing if R+L=J&M was true.

[The Map Guy]

29 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Meera is daughter of Howland Reed and Ashara Dayne. And she is younger than Jon. Howland impregnated Ashara, when he was at Starfall, looking for Lyanna. Though at that time Lyanna and Rhaegar has already departed from Starfall, and went north. Though Lyanna got stuck in Dornish mountains, because of her pregnancy, and Rhaegar had to leave her there. The place where Jon was born, was named by Rhaegar, the Tower of Joy, because that's where Rhaegar and Lyanna realised, that she's pregnant.

When Lyanna gave birth to Jon, there were other people there - Ashara, wet nurse Wylla, and maester Marwyn (who performed cesarean section on Lyanna, when she was unable to give birth to Jon on her own).

....i think there is too much speculation here with inconsistent timelines.

Also, I do not believe the Howland we know can get it on with Ashara.

I would rather believe Howland, small and cowardly like a hobbit, would indirectly cause chaos in the world, but would eventually find redemption in a Tolkienesque way.

[Davjos]

4 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

....i think there is too much speculation here with inconsistent timelines.

 

You’ve got to see the irony behind this comment. I do appreciate your approach to the Mereenese knot, but sadly it is supported by a theory/pot so cracked it might as well be a sieve 

[Kandrax]

Maybe Martin planned for Jon to have twin sister, but abandoned because of physical characteristics of cragnogmen.

If Meera isn't cragnogman, that would more obvious than R+L=J.

1 hour ago, The Map Guy said:

George Lucas is responsible for the ASOAIF delays

So this is all about it. George Lucas bashing.

[The Map Guy]

44 minutes ago, Davjos said:

You’ve got to see the irony behind this comment. I do appreciate your approach to the Mereenese knot, but sadly it is supported by a theory/pot so cracked it might as well be a sieve 

Well I just listed half my R+L=J&M foreshadowing clues in my original post with consistent timelines. I still got one big one left, but I am testing the water to see how people feel about J&M so far.

Remember, my point is this theory is obsolete in AFFC & ADWD. If you don't want to believe it was possible in AGOT, ACOK, ASOS, so be it.

[The Map Guy]

26 minutes ago, Kandrax said:

Maybe Martin planned for Jon to have twin sister, but abandoned because of physical characteristics of cragnogmen.

If Meera isn't cragnogman, that would more obvious than R+L=J.

So this is all about it. George Lucas bashing.

I see your point, but what if Meera's smaller than average appearance was the result of her environment + female Stark shortnish DNA (lika Arya & Lyanna)?

What if crannogmen were just regular people raised in a malnourished swamp? Because they are malnourished, they are smaller and shorter than your average person. This point was actually brought up in TWOIAF.

[Ser Leftwich]

12 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

Well I just listed half my R+L=J&M foreshadowing clues in my original post with consistent timelines. I still got one big one left, but I am testing the water to see how people feel about J&M so far.

Why not just present a whole theory?

People should base opinion on how solid the theory is from the evidence/clues, not how they "feel" about it.

[Seams]

There are many references to twins after you say Meera's hidden twin symbolism disappears from the books:

• obviously, the growing conflict between Jaime and Cersei, in spite of being twins.
• every reference to the seat of House Frey at The Twins.
• Horas and Hobber Redwyne
• Maelys the Monstrous

Granted, those don't relate to Jon and Meera directly, but I think that's a major reason the theory you present doesn't add up. If Jon and Meera were part of the larger twin motif, there would be more connections between them (even subtle, symbolic connections) and the overt twin stuff that continues throughout the books. I have also wondered whether Meera and Jon might be secret twins, but I just don't see any of the usual symbolism that would link the two of them or link either of them to the ongoing symbolism of twins.

It's possible that GRRM is keeping things on the down low, but I've gotten pretty good at spotting symbols - I can't always decode them, but I can often find them. I just don't see these characters having any links. The evidence you cite is not what GRRM usually offers as hidden clues, in my experience. The torch getting brighter because of the icy wind - I think you're saying that the ice and fire are combined, right? But Jojen comes in the door with Meera. Does this mean there are R + L triplets? There are also many fires in ASOIAF and many wind and ice references. It would be difficult to say that this particular interaction of wind and flame introduces one of two R + L offspring if none of the other hundreds of references to flames and wind or cold carry the same meaning.

If GRRM started a twin motif with Jon and Meera in the first two or three books, it would be almost impossible for him to drop it in the later books. His symbols are woven together so tightly that the fabric would unravel completely if he decided to drop something. We would see the loose ends.

I was a little confused by your Star Wars timeline, as I remembered that Luke and Leia were revealed as siblings back in the 80s trilogy. I checked and Return of the Jedi was released in 1983. You put a lot of stock in the May 2005 date of Revenge of the Sith, apparently because the identity of Luke and Leia's mother is revealed in that film. I don't think people in 2005 would have accused GRRM of plagiarizing George Lucas. As with 2018 people, I think 2005 people would enjoy the similarities as well as the differences between the two sagas. Since the "secret sibling" twist was revealed in 1983, I don't think the details of the mother's death would have suddenly created a major parallel that GRRM felt he had to avoid.

GRRM has said in an interview that he thought about changing the ending of the books because some people guessed the outcome in comments in a forum. He decided to go ahead with his plan, though, in spite of the correct guess in some forum somewhere. Most people assume that this remark from GRRM means that readers have guessed the R + L = J twist. I think it could refer to any of a dozen or more plot twists. But I do think GRRM's remarks about this are indication that he has not made major changes in the plot he had in mind. (I'm not talking here about the letter to the publisher - he has said he departed from his very early, sketchy outline.)

I also think he wouldn't play that kind of game with his readers - he tries to be straightforward when he decides to share information. The information he has provided indicates that the Meereenese Knot had to do with Dany's adventures in Essos. I believe him.

I do think that we will see overlapping plot lines from the Star Wars series and ASOIAF but that is because they are both based on ancient mythology and archetypes.

[The Map Guy]

1 hour ago, Ser Leftwich said:

Why not just present a whole theory?

People should base opinion on how solid the theory is from the evidence/clues, not how they "feel" about it.

I will, and it won't take 6 or 7 years lol

It would of made my original post x3 bigger and I doubt people will take it seriously if it was thrown in altogether.

This new clue is much easier to digest if forum readers got a chance to think about R+L=J&M a little bit first.

 

[Ser Leftwich]

5 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

I will, and it won't take 6 or 7 years lol

It would of made my original post x3 bigger and I doubt people will take it seriously if it was thrown in altogether.

This new clue is much easier to digest if forum readers got a chance to think about R+L=J&M a little bit first.

 

How could any one 'clue' take more than 5 sentences to explain/outline?

"3X bigger than the original post" is not a 'clue,' it would be rambling speculation.

[The Map Guy]

31 minutes ago, Seams said:

There are many references to twins after you say Meera's hidden twin symbolism disappears from the books:

• obviously, the growing conflict between Jaime and Cersei, in spite of being twins.
• every reference to the seat of House Frey at The Twins.
• Horas and Hobber Redwyne
• Maelys the Monstrous

Granted, those don't relate to Jon and Meera directly, but I think that's a major reason the theory you present doesn't add up. If Jon and Meera were part of the larger twin motif, there would be more connections between them (even subtle, symbolic connections) and the overt twin stuff that continues throughout the books. I have also wondered whether Meera and Jon might be secret twins, but I just don't see any of the usual symbolism that would link the two of them or link either of them to the ongoing symbolism of twins.

It's possible that GRRM is keeping things on the down low, but I've gotten pretty good at spotting symbols - I can't always decode them, but I can often find them. I just don't see these characters having any links. The evidence you cite is not what GRRM usually offers as hidden clues, in my experience. The torch getting brighter because of the icy wind - I think you're saying that the ice and fire are combined, right? But Jojen comes in the door with Meera. Does this mean there are R + L triplets? There are also many fires in ASOIAF and many wind and ice references. It would be difficult to say that this particular interaction of wind and flame introduces one of two R + L offspring if none of the other hundreds of references to flames and wind or cold carry the same meaning.

If GRRM started a twin motif with Jon and Meera in the first two or three books, it would be almost impossible for him to drop it in the later books. His symbols are woven together so tightly that the fabric would unravel completely if he decided to drop something. We would see the loose ends.

I was a little confused by your Star Wars timeline, as I remembered that Luke and Leia were revealed as siblings back in the 80s trilogy. I checked and Return of the Jedi was released in 1983. You put a lot of stock in the May 2005 date of Revenge of the Sith, apparently because the identity of Luke and Leia's mother is revealed in that film. I don't think people in 2005 would have accused GRRM of plagiarizing George Lucas. As with 2018 people, I think 2005 people would enjoy the similarities as well as the differences between the two sagas. Since the "secret sibling" twist was revealed in 1983, I don't think the details of the mother's death would have suddenly created a major parallel that GRRM felt he had to avoid.

GRRM has said in an interview that he thought about changing the ending of the books because some people guessed the outcome in comments in a forum. He decided to go ahead with his plan, though, in spite of the correct guess in some forum somewhere. Most people assume that this remark from GRRM means that readers have guessed the R + L = J twist. I think it could refer to any of a dozen or more plot twists. But I do think GRRM's remarks about this are indication that he has not made major changes in the plot he had in mind. (I'm not talking here about the letter to the publisher - he has said he departed from his very early, sketchy outline.)

I also think he wouldn't play that kind of game with his readers - he tries to be straightforward when he decides to share information. The information he has provided indicates that the Meereenese Knot had to do with Dany's adventures in Essos. I believe him.

I do think that we will see overlapping plot lines from the Star Wars series and ASOIAF but that is because they are both based on ancient mythology and archetypes.

Thank you for your time in replying.
I will do my best to reply to all of them. But, a reminder, as of 2018, I don't think Meera Reed is a Stark-Targaryen anymore. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and I don't take to heart if people disagree with this theory.

Meera & Jojen did come through the door together, but it was Meera that got the first intro. While Jon & Meera are the same age, Jojen is younger...therefore he was not at the ToJ.

If you do a re-read of ACOK & ASOS, you'll be surprise to find R+L=J&M clues at least once in every Bran chapter. You probably didn't spot it because you were not looking for it, and forum people never talked about it.

1980s Star Wars did reveal that Luke and Leia are twins, but they never revealed that their mother died giving birth to them. That was only in the 2005 movie. From the 1980's to 2005, everyone assumed Leia's mother was still alive when Leia was a child. This was plot hole in the Star Wars universe that fans complained about. GRRM did not rewrite R+L=J&M because of twins in general, it was because their mother died giving birth to twins during the change of a new empire.

GRRM cannot confess to Meera Reed plot's of the Meereense Knot because it would of at least revealed R+L=J. The stuff with Dany & Meereen is just the half truth. GRRM created his own mess in Meereen, where as the R+L=J&M mess was forced by Lucas.

[The Map Guy]

Timeline wise...Meera was seen in 2000 ASOS, and then in 2011 ADWD....11 years.

Is it not possible for Meera to have her story changed?

Is it not possible between 2005 and 2011, GRRM came up with the clever excuse of the Meereenese Knot, that actually has two meanings?

[The Map Guy]

13 minutes ago, Ser Leftwich said:

How could any one 'clue' take more than 5 sentences to explain/outline?

"3X bigger than the original post" is not a 'clue,' it would be rambling speculation.

It will take more than 5 sentences.

If it is a rambling speculation, that I guess I was correct that people won't take me seriously if I posted it.

I feel its better to let R+L=J&M to digest a little bit before I "ramble" about the next part.

[Nevets]

The decision to split AFFC was made well before 2005, about 2 years or so, I believe, so Meera wasn't going to appear in it in any event, given that she was well to the North, and AFFC is in the South.  And AFFC was an instant best-seller, and the show was developed sometime afterwards, and was broadcast before the publication of ADWD.  Soo Martin was sufficiently well-established he could do whatever he pleased by that point.  No need to change anything.

Also, mom dying and her child being hidden to keep him safe from the parents' enemies is a plot so commonplace it is practically cliché, especially in fantasy circles.  Adding a twin is a logical extension, and one that nobody would think is plagiarism.

Plus there is nothing to connect the two.  And the Meereenese Knot is adequately explained as being the difficulties of coinciding events in Meereen, and finding POVs to cover them.  Nothing more.

[Ygrain]

5 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

George Lucas is a crappy writer. Luke and Leia were supposed to be the romantic couple as of A New Hope in 1977, but afterward, focus groups (pre internet poll techniques to judge the popularity of things) overwhelmingly wanted Leia to get with Han so Empire Strikes Back in 1980 was re-written for Leia and Han to get together. 

If only present-day Lucasfilm listened to their fans...

3 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

I see your point, but what if Meera's smaller than average appearance was the result of her environment + female Stark shortnish DNA (lika Arya & Lyanna)?

Zero textual support anywhere for Arya or Lyanna being notably short.

3 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

What if crannogmen were just regular people raised in a malnourished swamp? Because they are malnourished, they are smaller and shorter than your average person. This point was actually brought up in TWOIAF.

Malnourished or not, such a profound height difference doesn't occur in a single lifetime. Even if thousands generations of crannogmen did produce an average height of a ten-year-old, a child brought from somewhere else wouldn't shrink like that.

BTW, what exactly does TWOIAF state about malnourishment? A diet of fish and frogs, though certainly uncommon for an average Westerosi, is not exactly lacking in proteins.