Mance Rayder's background story?

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

On ‎9‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 3:02 AM, Asshai Backward said:

Since hundreds of black brothers must be aware of Mance's orphan upbringing at the wall, why not one account?

I don't really understand the question. Quorin gives us a good deal of Mance's backstory. He was his friend at Shadow Tower. Why do we need anyone else to do so? We don't really meet many characters who are old rangers from the Shadow Tower, and narratively we don't need multiple characters describing Mance's upbringing to get the story.

On ‎9‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 3:02 AM, Asshai Backward said:

Maybe Donal Noye referencing some story of Lil' Mance making a wall of building blocks and toppling it with a stick giant.

Or maybe Mallister gets out his iPhone and shows us baby pictures?

In all seriousness, there's no need to do that. We have his backstory, from Quorin and Mance. I don't need it repeated several times.

On ‎9‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 3:02 AM, Asshai Backward said:

What, specifically, was in Mance's character to make him go from freewheeling skirt chaser to the self-ordained savior of the wildlings?  Skirt chasing Mance would've/could've hightailed it for Braavos and life would have been a lot easier.

Because he was a wildling at heart. According to Quorin. And from what we see of Mance, that's confirmed.

[kleevedge]

I finally solved why Mance Rayder is Arthur Dayne.

If you take the name Mance Rayder, with the letters you can spell DAYNE

So with the leftovers you now have Dayne Mace Rr
Out of Mace Rr you can spell Rearm

Now we have something! Rearm Dayne with the letter C leftover

C is the 3rd letter of the alphabet - 3

there were 3 kingsguard at the tower of joy

So now you have Rearm Dayne 3 - Which is obviously saying to Rearm Dayne with Dawn and recreate the 3 members of the kingsguard defending the tower of Joy (possibly with Tormund and Jon) to stop the long night!

Goddamn am I impressive... 

[The Commentator]

On 8/31/2018 at 6:58 PM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

At this point, I'm more inclined to believe that Mance is one of Craster's son than this stuff about him being one of the KG t the ToJ. There are people on the Wall who would recognize them.

I don't believe Mance Rayder was one of the men at the Tower of Joy but there is a mystery about his past.  I love the idea that he fathered Jon Snow.  They are very much alike.  

[Dorian Martell's son]

This thread now has two pages it does not need 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

16 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

but there is a mystery about his past

No. There. Isn’t. There are witnesses, present in the books, to him growing from a baby to becoming King-beyond-the-Wall. His past is one of the most known about and developed of any of the secondary characters we have.

[dmfn]

On 8/31/2018 at 11:09 PM, Legitimate_Bastard said:

The rhyme and the reason would be preparation for the PTWP etc., pre-directed by Rhaegar. If you can imagine for a moment that is was true, there would be no more than a few people who knew would there?

Aren't leading Rangers usually from a noble house? Waymar, Benjen etc.

I've never liked the Dayne/Rayder theory, but it would help explain why Ned so willingly and easily let the rightful heir to the Iron Throne take the Black like a shithead 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

26 minutes ago, dmfn said:

I've never liked the Dayne/Rayder theory, but it would help explain why Ned so willingly and easily let the rightful heir to the Iron Throne take the Black like a shithead 

Ned didn’t want Jon on the throne, he wanted to keep him safe, like he promised Lyanna he would. Pressing Jon’s claim to the throne would be the fastest way to put him in danger. Even when Robert died and Ned knew his children were bastards, he never once considered pressing Jon’s claim, he pressed Stannis’s. Ned made up his mind long ago to support the Baratheon claim, and adopt Jon as his own bastard.

Allowing Jon to take the black would mean that Rhaegar’s line died out, and Jon would be far away from the politics of the South and essentially forgotten by anyone who mattered.

[dmfn]

30 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Ned didn’t want Jon on the throne, he wanted to keep him safe, like he promised Lyanna he would. Pressing Jon’s claim to the throne would be the fastest way to put him in danger. Even when Robert died and Ned knew his children were bastards, he never once considered pressing Jon’s claim, he pressed Stannis’s. Ned made up his mind long ago to support the Baratheon claim, and adopt Jon as his own bastard.

Allowing Jon to take the black would mean that Rhaegar’s line died out, and Jon would be far away from the politics of the South and essentially forgotten by anyone who mattered.

You're probably right about all that. I'm not necessarily thinking he had to push Jon toward the throne, but it just seems like protecting him didn't need to mean shipping him off to a frozen wasteland to die a virgin in a fallen order of once proud warriors surrounded by dungeon scumbags without giving the boy ANY kind of closure in his life. 

Pirate, sellsword, hedge knight, something... especially knowing Jon had romanticized the Watch and was going to feel like even more of a discarded bastard. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

15 minutes ago, dmfn said:

ou're probably right about all that. I'm not necessarily thinking he had to push Jon toward the throne, but it just seems like protecting him didn't need to mean shipping him off to a frozen wasteland to die a virgin in a fallen order of once proud warriors surrounded by dungeon scumbags without giving the boy ANY kind of closure in his life. 

In fairness, Ned genuinely thinks the NW is a noble vocation, even if he does know of its decline. He's also sending him off with Benjen, and he'd still be within reasonable distance of Winterfell, to come home for Christmas's and boys' days out to behead people.

Ned was hesitant to send Jon to the Wall, as he knew it was hard, but his options were limited. Cat basically vowed to make Jon's life a living hell if he left him at Winterfell, and he couldn't take him to court.

It's interesting to speculate about whether Ned ever intended to tell Jon about his parentage. I doubt he would have, but he must have known that sooner or later Jon would demand some answers.

[dmfn]

19 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

In fairness, Ned genuinely thinks the NW is a noble vocation, even if he does know of its decline. He's also sending him off with Benjen, and he'd still be within reasonable distance of Winterfell, to come home for Christmas's and boys' days out to behead people.

Ned was hesitant to send Jon to the Wall, as he knew it was hard, but his options were limited. Cat basically vowed to make Jon's life a living hell if he left him at Winterfell, and he couldn't take him to court.

It's interesting to speculate about whether Ned ever intended to tell Jon about his parentage. I doubt he would have, but he must have known that sooner or later Jon would demand some answers.

Again right. It's not like Ned knew he was going off to King's Landing to die. Even if he rarely went back North he left Jon with an uncle and in reasonable proximity to a brother and sister he cared for. 

Speaking of which, what circumstances warrant a brother of the watch to get a field trip? I can see Ben getting permission to go home when Robert came. And obviously the recruiter guys get to travel, but what about anyone else? It'd be pretty risky to let some of those guys off the Wall. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

25 minutes ago, dmfn said:

Speaking of which, what circumstances warrant a brother of the watch to get a field trip? I can see Ben getting permission to go home when Robert came. And obviously the recruiter guys get to travel, but what about anyone else? It'd be pretty risky to let some of those guys off the Wall. 

I doubt NW men are just allowed to wander off. It seems the only excursions are those required for duty, and those allowed to go off on their own are those that can be trusted to return (such as Yoren).

My guess would be that nobles and officers would have a bit more ley-way to visit family for special occasions, particularly those from the North. If anything an excuse to visit on official duty could be come up with, and keeping close links with those houses is important.

[Tagganaro]

2 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I doubt NW men are just allowed to wander off. It seems the only excursions are those required for duty, and those allowed to go off on their own are those that can be trusted to return (such as Yoren).

My guess would be that nobles and officers would have a bit more ley-way to visit family for special occasions, particularly those from the North. If anything an excuse to visit on official duty could be come up with, and keeping close links with those houses is important.

This is an interesting question, especially in light of this discussion of Mance.  I certainly don't buy that Mance is anything more than his background suggests he is (born a wildling, raised at the Wall, etc.) but it is interesting that the LC would take someone with such a background to visit the Starks at Winterfell...seems a bit dangerous and risky no?

But yeah, obviously any nobles have more freedom to leave and visit their families, especially on a special occasion.  I believe it would easily be spun by the LC and the NW command that noble family members can go and visit and have a better chance of recruiting.  Plus the family members are actually even less likely to desert while visiting family since the family would never allow such shame to come back to them.  

[Frey family reunion]

My favorite theory is that Mance is Lord Commander Qorgyle's unacknowledged bastard.  Which might explain why Lord Commander Qorgyle chose Mance to take with him when he visited Lord Eddard and his sons. 

It might also explain why Mance's torn and sewn cloak was the driving factor in him leaving the Night's Watch.  The black cloak with the three sewn, red tears might be an allusion to the inverse/bastard sigil of House Qorgyle, three black scorpions on a red field. 

I think George tends to add detail when necessary.  We first hear of the existence of a Lord Commander Qorgyle after we are introduced to Mance Rayder.  And after we hear about Mance Rayder's fondness of his old black cloak with three red sown tears, we are given a chapter where the Sigil of House Qorgyle is described.

This might also explain why Jon's story of being a bastard of a powerful lord seemed to resonate so strongly for Mance.

[LynnS]

19 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

My favorite theory is that Mance is Lord Commander Qorgyle's unacknowledged bastard.  Which might explain why Lord Commander Qorgyle chose Mance to take with him when he visited Lord Eddard and his sons. 

It might also explain why Mance's torn and sewn cloak was the driving factor in him leaving the Night's Watch.  The black cloak with the three sewn, red tears might be an allusion to the inverse/bastard sigil of House Qorgyle, three black scorpions on a red field. 

I think George tends to add detail when necessary.  We first hear of the existence of a Lord Commander Qorgyle after we are introduced to Mance Rayder.  And after we hear about Mance Rayder's fondness of his old black cloak with three red sown tears, we are given a chapter where the Sigil of House Qorgyle is described.

This might also explain why Jon's story of being a bastard of a powerful lord seemed to resonate so strongly for Mance.

I would add that Qorgyle (a Dornishman) was part of the expedition to retrieve Mance from the Wildling raiders and the LC is the subject of the song the Dornishman's Wife sung from the POV of the wildling.  The Dornishman's "wife" could also refer to the sword used to dispatch the offenders.  This is the song that comes to Jon when he witnesses the burning of 'Mance' by Melisandre.   

The Dornishman's wife was as fair as the sun,

and her kisses were warmer than spring.

But the Dornishman's blade was made of black steel,

and its kiss was a terrible thing.

The Dornishman's wife would sing as she bathed,

in a voice that was sweet as a peach,

But the Dornishman's blade had a song of its own,

and a bite sharp and cold as a leech.

As he lay on the ground with the darkness around,

and the taste of his blood on his tongue,

His brothers knelt by him and prayed him a prayer,

and he smiled and he laughed and he sung,

"Brothers, oh brothers, my days here are done,

the Dornishman's taken my life,

But what does it matter, for all men must die,

and I've tasted the Dornishman's wife!"

 

 

 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

On ‎9‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 4:17 PM, Tagganaro said:

This is an interesting question, especially in light of this discussion of Mance.  I certainly don't buy that Mance is anything more than his background suggests he is (born a wildling, raised at the Wall, etc.) but it is interesting that the LC would take someone with such a background to visit the Starks at Winterfell...seems a bit dangerous and risky no?

Not from his perspective. Mance was raised on the Wall, and a trusted ranger. I doubt anyone would have thought him too dangerous to take to Winterfell. We have no indication they had any suspicions of him at all.

 

[Legitimate_Bastard]

On 9/28/2018 at 11:31 AM, Frey family reunion said:

My favorite theory is that Mance is Lord Commander Qorgyle's unacknowledged bastard.  Which might explain why Lord Commander Qorgyle chose Mance to take with him when he visited Lord Eddard and his sons. 

It might also explain why Mance's torn and sewn cloak was the driving factor in him leaving the Night's Watch.  The black cloak with the three sewn, red tears might be an allusion to the inverse/bastard sigil of House Qorgyle, three black scorpions on a red field. 

I think George tends to add detail when necessary.  We first hear of the existence of a Lord Commander Qorgyle after we are introduced to Mance Rayder.  And after we hear about Mance Rayder's fondness of his old black cloak with three red sown tears, we are given a chapter where the Sigil of House Qorgyle is described.

This might also explain why Jon's story of being a bastard of a powerful lord seemed to resonate so strongly for Mance.

Wicked

[Tagganaro]

On 9/28/2018 at 11:31 AM, Frey family reunion said:

My favorite theory is that Mance is Lord Commander Qorgyle's unacknowledged bastard.  Which might explain why Lord Commander Qorgyle chose Mance to take with him when he visited Lord Eddard and his sons. 

It might also explain why Mance's torn and sewn cloak was the driving factor in him leaving the Night's Watch.  The black cloak with the three sewn, red tears might be an allusion to the inverse/bastard sigil of House Qorgyle, three black scorpions on a red field. 

I think George tends to add detail when necessary.  We first hear of the existence of a Lord Commander Qorgyle after we are introduced to Mance Rayder.  And after we hear about Mance Rayder's fondness of his old black cloak with three red sown tears, we are given a chapter where the Sigil of House Qorgyle is described.

This might also explain why Jon's story of being a bastard of a powerful lord seemed to resonate so strongly for Mance.

wow, this is the most interesting theory on Mance's background I've ever heard.  I don't agree with it, but it is certainly much more compelling than Mance/Secret Targ/etc. theories.  Here's why I don't agree with it though:  Mance's story is already interesting enough and compelling enough without adding the secret identity bit to it.  I think Jon's bastard story resonates with Mance because Mance has lived it.  Mance was the son of at least one wildling and born a wildling- I would think there was maybe a certain stigma attached to that by his NW brothers for which Mance felt mistreated and a lack of identity to accompany that.  Mance can thus identify with Jon's own feelings of being restricted due to his birth status.  And I'd venture that's really what the cloak story is also about- Mance wants to be his own person, which is part of the wildling ethos that Mance was born into and loved.

8 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Not from his perspective. Mance was raised on the Wall, and a trusted ranger. I doubt anyone would have thought him too dangerous to take to Winterfell. We have no indication they had any suspicions of him at all.

Well, as I said above a lot of inference here, but I think it's probable people did have suspicions of him and not trust him.  We don't know whether it is common knowledge that Mance was born a wildling, but we do know what Qhorin says about him, which to me relays a certain amount of mistrust and suspicion towards Mance.  Qhorin, for example, knows that Mance was wildling born.  He says he loved the wild more than the Wall, often sang of Bael the Bard, and when Jon asks whether Mance was a good ranger Qhorin replies that Mance "was the best of us and the worst as well."

Now we know that Qhorin and Mance were friends, possibly even really good friends, but we also know that Qhorin has a very progressive attitude towards wildlings that Jon inherits from him.  Qhorin says that only fools like Thoren Smallwood hate the wildlings- but we know that Smallwood's attitude is pretty prevalent among the NW.  Assuming that it is somewhat common knowledge that Mance was wildling-born, which Qhorin's knowledge of makes it seem like it is so, and furthermore we know that Mance's own actions relayed a passion for wildlings and wildling music, etc., I think it's certainly probable Mance encountered some prejudice among his brothers.