Westeros M2:TW mod- Alpha Map

[Marcus]

Okay, about 15 new screenshots with the updated maps. Tell us if everything's been fixed properly I think Craster's is a bit off, but you decide

[Werthead]

The King's Landing debate basically boils down to:

KL should be a city because it's a city in the books and is a major (major) economic force in Westeros, namely it's most important administrative, economic and population centre.

KL should be a castle because KL is dominated by the Red Keep (and cities - even Huge Cities - don't have keeps within them on the TW map) and it is massively well-fortified.

Take your pick whichever you feel is more accurate. It may be possible (eventually) to individually 'sculpt' cities with their own features (I know someone was working on doing this for Rome), such as the Dragonpit or the Great Sept of Baelor, but I do not believe it is possible to do this in Medieval 2 (if it was, I'd have assumed they would made London or Rome or Venice look more individual in the game itself).

Marcus, is it be possible to individually alter building properties for one structure and not another? Could King's Landing be made a castle that could build all (or most) city structures whilst other castles wouldn't be able to do so? And if castles can build city structures, will those city structures appear inside the castle walls on the battle map? Or is that unknown as yet?

I took 224 turns to complete Medieval 2 as the English. One of my friends, playing as the French, completed the game in about 115-120 turns. In Rome the best I did was 90 turns (but Rome was a much faster game when you played as the Romans because they had a substantial technological edge over the other factions).

I would favour a gradual reduction in provinces once we work more stuff out (although the screens posted suggest lots of territory for each castle, and I am not in favour of having too many vast, gargantuam provinces with only one castle hidden away somewhere in them). It should be pointed out that there are at least two bugs in the game (not fixed yet) which make city fighting extremely tedious. The first is that performance drops massively inside cities. The second is that units sometimes 'spread out' as they fight in city streets, preventing other units from aiding them (this was actually done to avoid the preposterous-looking 'sea of people' swarming down city streets steamrollering over anything in its path in Rome, but frankly that was preferable), making taking a city an absolute bloodbath of horrific proportions.

[Werthead]

The Planky Town is in Dorne (obviously), on the River Greenblood. It is where the Orphans of the Rhoyne (the hardcore Dornish of Rhoynar descent who follow Rhoynish customs) trade with the rest of Dorne. It would be between Godsgrace and Lemonwood, I believe.

[Marcus]

Is it worth including? And isn't Ghaston Grey a penitentiary? As for your other questions, I'd have to ask the map guy, or at least go digging in the code.

[Werthead]

Is the Planky Town notable? Certainly, as the meeting point between two of Dorne's indiginous races and a site of trade between them. Also, it's the only confirmed 'town' there is in Dorne apart from the shadow town/city of Sunspear.

Ghaston Grey? Not so notable. To be honest, I just thought it would be cool to have another island-fortress on the map, but yeah, if we are are province overload then it's not essential. I would say that Coldmoat is a pretty important location to have though. It did have a whole novella set around it, after all.

[Gorn]

I think Skagos should be a single rebel province. Three provinces are too many.

[Werthead]

I could be wrong, but I believe House Magnar of Kingshouse is the most important of the three locations. 'Magnar' seems to be a northerly term of rulership (as in Magnar of Thenn) and Kingshouse suggests it is the capital, or the nearest thing the Skagans have.

[Marcus]

Done. Now, a few things left before resources.

Snow line. This *does* need to be figured out. Also, mercs.

If you want an unconquerable eastern continent for mercenary purposes, a named character will have to sail there in order to recuit. We know Stannis, etc never sailed to Tyrosh to hire sellswords. Would allowing sellswords to be bought at large port settlements (King's landing, Dragonstone, to a lesser extent Lannisport) be a fair compromise?

Also a last call for big issues. Location problems, settlements to be added/removed, rivers, mountains, etc wrong. Any of those? I'd like to start region resources tomorrow or Monday, and it'd be nice if we didn't have to come back to change things all the time.

Thanks for your input so far, you guys are an excellent asset.

[Ran]

GRRM has remarked on where it snows during the winter, generally speaking, here.

Of course, given the particular events of the series, I suspect this Winter will be one of those where it does, indeed, snow in Oldtown and Dorne.

I'll try and find some time to continue my look at the map. I haven't gotten past the North yet.

[Marcus]

Good, we shall wait for yout to finish Looking it over, I saw we still have a few problems. Particularily the mountains in the Vale, around Ashemark in the Westerlands, and Kingsgrave should probably be added to the Prince's Pass...

[Werthead]

Is it possible to have a 'creeping snow' effect? So that when winter does come, it starts north of the Wall, then the North and eventually creeps down to say Riverrun and stay there? Or is it just on and off?

[Marcus]

There are climate regions, but I dont know if that's possible. Perhaps, perhpas not. Have to ask around.

[Werthead]

It's not a game-killer, but it would be seriously odd to play 100-odd turns with the snowline running through say Winterfell (or even not existing at all), then suddenly it shifts south to Riverrun and the rest of the game is played like that. If that is the only way of doing it, I'd be tempted to say not to include the arrival of winter and just have the snowline running through Winterfell or perhaps a bit further south for the whole duration of the game. It would be a shame if we lost that element from the books though.

As for mercs, being able to hire them at White Harbour (Ibbenese), Gulltown (Braavosi), King's Landing (Pentos?), Dragonstone (Tyroshi forces), Duskendale, perhaps Saltpans (Braavosi) and Sunspear (Volantene, possibly Myrish and Tyroshi) would be a good idea, maybe limiting them to 1-2 units apiece to reduce workload? We could only realistically include the Free Cities, even in an unconquerable form, if we got hold of a map of them from George before ADWD is released, and the chances of that are slim to non-existent.

On the question of the North being able to invade the Lands Beyond the Wall, if we make the Shivering Sea deep ocean and uncrossable, won't that adversely effect Hardhome, preventing its port from doing anything? Personally I think ensuring that none of the Northern settlements apart from White Harbour has a port at the start is the best way of reducing the problem. If the Northern player decides to listen to Wyman Manderly and build a huge fleet to attack the wildlings they should have the freedom to do so. Of course, it would mean diverting resources away from the war with the Lannisters, which should be the Northern player's first priority.

Do we know how the Stark armies-in-Tully-territory thing is going to work? Will Stark and Tully start off already allied and already with military access in place? Even with military access, will the Stark armies be able to move through the Twins settlements to cross the river?

On the subject of the Twins, having them as two seperate settlements may be accurate to the books, but seems a bit odd in game terms, and increases the province count (if only by one). Would it be possible to create a gap in the river and plump a single castle over the top to make it more accurate (so no bridge, but armies have to physically go through the castle to reach the other side)? Or would this cause the very problem I asked about above?

[Marcus]

They will be allied, and have military access. They will be able to cross the river, as Twins registers as a friendly settlement. Now if you make one castle and split the river, it would in effect block passage. Even with military access, castles block passage if there is no way around. For example, it's impossible to get North of the Wall without attack the Night's Watch (this'll have to be fixed, perhaps a small pass the to the side of Castle Black) Same with the Vale. Noone but House Arryn can get past the bloody gates. So if Robb is to get back and forth across the river, the Twins should be left as they are. If his crossing should be blocked, it should be made one.

Edit: I realize there should be no "blocked" areas. I think passes will have to be added so a unit can squeeze by the castle without having to take it, however having to pass that close to the castle still retains the defensibilty of those settlements. Or we can leave ti as it is and none by the House holding the pass will be allowed through, but this may spark many wars...

[chewietobbacca]

Made some changes:

-Coldmoat and Planky Town added

-House Stane and House Crowl provinces removed

-Moat Cailin, Castle Black, and The Bloody Gate have paths around it so they don't block the way entirely

-Changed country names to proper house names for all but the Baratheons (for instance, 'French Castle' should now read 'Tyrell Castle'

-Changed leader and heir titles (For instance, leader of House Lannister is titled Lord while leaders and heirs of House Martell are titled Prince)

-Changed religions:

Catholic -> The Faith

Islam -> The Drowned God

Orthodox -> The Lord of Light

Pagan -> The Old Gods

Heretic is still Heretic

[Maester Yobjascz]

Might I also suggest adding a village/town... Mole's Town. Just a little south of the Wall... should be the equivalent of 3-4 hours' ride, I believe. My guess, is that, on Map 40, it would be at the road junction due south of Castle Black, and southeast of Queenscrown.

There's a small, permanent population there, along with some tradesmen, and, of course, 'buried treasure'... Allows recruiting of smallfolk levies, in a pinch (as was done in ASoS in anticipation of Mance's attack). Should probably be considered part of the Watch's territory.

[Gorn]

Might I also suggest adding a village/town... Mole's Town. Just a little south of the Wall... should be the equivalent of 3-4 hours' ride, I believe. My guess, is that, on Map 40, it would be at the road junction due south of Castle Black, and southeast of Queenscrown.

There's a small, permanent population there, along with some tradesmen, and, of course, 'buried treasure'... Allows recruiting of smallfolk levies, in a pinch (as was done in ASoS in anticipation of Mance's attack). Should probably be considered part of the Watch's territory.

I think it should replace Queenscrown as the main settlement in the Gift. I mean, Queenscrown isn't actually inhabited, so it makes more sense to put Mole's Town instead.

[Maester Yobjascz]

I think [Molestown] should replace Queenscrown as the main settlement in the Gift. I mean, Queenscrown isn't actually inhabited, so it makes more sense to put Mole's Town instead.

Hmmm... which leads to an interesting thought...

Modder's: Is it possible to start with abandoned castles/villages on map? If so, there might be a few worth adding (Queenscrown, additional Night's Watch castles (? - though doesn't appear necessary), Castamere, and Tarbeck Hall come to mind).

[Marcus]

We *could*, they would be rebel settlements. But that increases our province count..

[Maester Yobjascz]

Then I'd leave them out... however, any comment on introducing Mole's Town? (Either as Queenscrown, or as a replacement?)