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Marcus

Westeros M2:TW mod- Alpha Map

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Yh. The kill_character command should hopefully work in 1.2 though. Not tried it though. I think Westeros:TW should start around end of book 1 - balon greyjoy's crowning sort of time period. Ned Stark is just too hard to implement. I am sorry. He could still be attacked and killed by an enemy faction while he was there so i don't know how Marcus could implement this. Eddard may have to stay dead. I'm sorry.

BTW, we should create another thread about what we want in the first release. I'd be happy for a vanilla-like clone before we put in all the fancy features.

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As long as the command work in 1.2, what MY is suggesting is quite feasible, if simply difficult and long to do. As for what you want in the first release, you can ask for whatever you like however I'm not guaranteeing what will or will not appear in the first release. Also, post it in the Suggestions thread, don't start a new topic.

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Some things we need to think about:

What the percentages should be for Eddard's events.

For example:

Release: 20%

Wall:30%

Behead:50%

Or whatever. The percents need to be worked out.

Also, we should start thinking about campaign events. The wildling invasion will be one, another should be the start of winter. Any other ideas?

I'm going to begin the port-over from 1.1 to 1.2 tomorrow. I have some scripts to test to see if we can get lengthened seasons and so on. We'll see how everything goes. So just some food for though for the next little bit. All input is welcome, as usual.

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Percentages on the Eddard Stark issue:

On further reflection, I'm not certain how likely it would be for Eddard to have been released back to the Starks. Unless we can create more complex triggers that rely on the Starks defeating the Lannisters/Crownlands in the field (and you guys have put enough time into this particular project already), then I'd put the odds of release to the Starks *very low*, say around 2-5%. Release to the Night's Watch, however, would be fairly likely... as that was the original plan. Had Cersei been a bit smarter (in itself, unlikely), then it'd have been a done deal. As such, I'd put the odds of release to the Night's Watch at 40%. This leaves the odds of Joffrey exhibiting his nuttiness at 45-48%. This feels right to me, as the Stark player (and the Lannister player) will want to open a bit more tentatively towards the other side... as there's a chance they don't have to be so antagonistic towards each other, which would allow them to focus on other targets (i.e., Greyjoys and Baratheons). However, should the beheading occur, they've got to be ready for war.

Other possible events...

- Bloody Mummers/Rape of the Saltpans - If the Bloody Mummers are a recruitable mercenary unit (that brings along Vargo Hoat as a retinue), then if that unit is ever lost/disbanded/destroyed/goes rebel, and Vargo Hoat disappears, then there should be an event where a large mass of 'broken men', some rather well trained (though perhaps not well-equipped), should proceed from town to town, capturing them and putting them to the sword.

- Beric Dondarrian and the BWB - From game start, there should be an active NPC army based in the Riverlands. I don't think they should start with a town, though that's a possibility. In any case, should Beric be killed in battle, we should have a script that generates a *new* general, with the same name and stats... thus reflecting his 'resurrection' by Thoros. We should have a limit on the number of times this happens before Beric is killed completely. Additionally, should Catelyn Stark (who should start as a retinue attachment for Robb Stark) be lost, we should have a script generate her as a 'general' for the BWB, with the trait 'secretly female'. (With BBB's ability to trade retinue, we may need to refine the trigger... if Catelyn Stark is north of the neck when she is lost, she shouldn't reappear in the riverlands with the BWB)

... I'll add more as I think of 'em.

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Those percentages seem reasonable. One thing to note though, we don't actually have to make the events happen on a single, predetermined turn. It could happen within a range of time, like from turn 2~5, in which case we should tune down the percentages because at these rates they're still bound to happen at the first possible chance. The advantage for this is, we won't start every campaign with the same random lots at exactly turn two, so we have more time to prepare and scheme. We might even script it so if Stark and Lannister got an alliance going before the events launch, they could outrule the possibility of beheading...(realism? discuss) will have to look into that later.

BTW, Jaime is in the field alright, but what about Tyrion? I'm guessing he already escaped the Mountains of the Moon?

The events with broken men are concentrated around the Riverlands in the books. We could follow that, but Tully doesn't necessarily have to be beaten up in our game. What happens if the fighting takes to the Westerlands? I'm not sure if we can script rebel events for districts that have seen much war, or maybe just ones that have had hostile armies devastating the countryside...another idea to experiment.

If broken men can be spawned anywhere fighting goes, I'm not sure where BwB will go...we could still concentrate them around the Riverlands, but it would probably cripple the already weak and badly positioned Tullys. And another thing, we probably can't simulate fighting between BwB and the brigands, since they're both effectively rebels in the game. At the very least they should not spawn while one another is still in the area, or they might merge... :bang: The limited spawning from Beric sounds nice and real, but unCat's debut would need some heavy scripting...

Great ideas, keep them coming!

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We might want to make Eddard's beheading even less likely. Otherwise, it'll be very hard for the Lannister or Joffrey factions to ever win. In the books it took a series of lucky events to happen for the Lannisters to end up on top: Stannis killed Renly allowing the Lannisters to make a deal with the Tyrells, Robb married Jeyne losing the Frey alliance, Cat released Jaime losing the Karstarks, none of Renly, Stannis or Stark were able to come to any sort of agreement. If Eddard dies, Lannister/Joffrey will have to fight Stark, Stannis, Renly, Tyrell, and maybe even Greyjoy all on different fronts. With Eddard alive, they may be able to have a ceasefire with the Starks while they deal with Renly and Stannis.

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AJ - The question, then, is whether we're trying to create a balanced game or not. Looking at it from the evidence in the books, it seems rather likely that Eddard was going to be beheaded... Joffrey was a loose cannon, Cersei had no real way of controlling him, but Littlefinger did, and Littlefinger wanted war. Based on this, I think the odds of Eddard being beheaded were pretty even. If this makes it more difficult for the Lannister player to win, tough luck... It becomes more of a challenge.

If, on the other hand, if we're trying to create a balanced game where every faction has similar odds of success, then yeah, it's a problem. But I don't think that's what we're aiming for... The Martells or Tullys shouldn't have as good a shot of 'winning' as the Tyrells. They're in really bad locations, with bad resources and political environments.

That said, I should rework the values a bit on Eddard's beheading, to create a 30% chance of 'roll again next turn'... which adds some variability to *when* the event actually takes place. As for politics, the Starks and Lannisters should be at pretty *bad* relations. If, however, they somehow manage to improve relations, we'd ideally be able to alter the percentages. If relations simply improve, then we up the odds of Eddard's release to the Night's Watch a bit, and really jack up the odds of delaying a decision. If relations actually become 'good', the odds of Eddard being released to the Starks should go up slightly, same with release to Night's Watch, and still with delaying... the Lannisters would still want to hold Eddard hostage. If they form an Alliance, odds of Eddard being released to Starks immediately go way up. *However*, as Joffrey's a loose cannon, there will *always* be a chance, even if it becomes very slight, that Eddard gets beheaded.

As for Tyrion, we could do something similar to Eddard, but with the Tully's holding Tyrion hostage... However, the situation is different enough that I'd be more inclined to simply have Tyrion appear a random number of turns later (2-6) on the border of the Vale, with himself, a Bronn retinue, and a few units of Mountain Clansmen. If we wanted to mirror Eddard, the odds would look like: 35% Delay, 10% Make him Fly, 5% Take the Black, 50% Release to Lannister.

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We want this to be a what if? game. I personally am not in favour of heavy scripting. DLV and EB (RTW), while great mods, lag some, as they are overrun with scripts.

Eddard being released = 10% chance or lower (remember the effect isn't cumulative, we want the what if Ned lives? scenario too =P ! )

Eddard dies = 40%

Eddard -> Night Watchsmen = 40%

My take on it anyway. And the BwB should exist (not sure if this is possible) if there is high devestation in the area, as that probably means there is a war there (probably script it just in the Riverlands, Crownlands, Westerlands and the Reach as the North, Dorne and the Vale are hard to get past (Neck, Boneway and The Bloody Gate)). And maybe have the BwB as a faction. I'm not sure if two rebel-type factions are possible. Marcus, Aeleron?

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Faction balancing is probably ahead of time, we'll need to beta test to really find out how they'll fare. Personally I think the Lannister position and wealth should make up for the number of foes they'll face, and like the books the anti-Lannisters don't always work together. Victory conditions can also be adjusted so Lannisters won't be faced with so much opposition...Kingslanding is more of a concern since most of the Kings want Joff gone.

I'm agreeing with too many scripts causing lag, as a previous victim myself I must say they really drag down the gameplay. ATM our main scripts are pretty compact, and if we do implement rebel spawn scripts they'll be kept to a minimum.

BwB...the fear is Dondarrion might get too ambitious and start carving out his own empire if we made them a faction. And there really aren't that many BwB people to justify making a new faction for them.

Tyrion as a separate dynamic event might not be necessary, he did have the right to trial by combat and after all Bronn won with ease. Eddard however counted entirely on the unpredictable Joff. We could have an event pop out saying he was released and spawns him somewhere on the Kingsroad with the clansmen.

Some other ideas for events from Marcus:

Wildling invasion, good ol' TW style

Nightswatch asking for help

Oldtown calling Conclave

Religion Arming, unlocks the religious guilds offering special units but comes with unrest

Stannis' declaration of Lannister Incest

Tournaments and etc...

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It might not be the right topic to post this but i'm asking for details about the campaign here. I've been reading in many posts about Eddard Stark. Isn't the war of the five kings supposed to start after he's beheaded? When exactly will Westeros TW campaign start? I haven't been able to find out about it on the boards. Thanks in advance and sorry for disturbing.

Edit: i have found my answer in another topic, it seems there will be different possible events for Eddard Stark, like beheaded, going to the wall, and so forth. That's a very good idea indeed. Sorry again.

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Sorry, no. The game only lets us zoom out so far. The screens will have to be taken in big chunks. Takes about 50 to do the whole map.

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Maybe this should be in the units section but what the heck, are you planning on diversing the General Units or will you stick with every general having 20+ elite knights? Seeing as how the armies in the books usually have what... 7-12 of the generals mentioned here? They would pretty much make a mockery of most other units on the field. In vanilla M2 i think i went around half of europe with 12 Portugese family members slaughtering every other army simply because the General's unit is kind of overpowered, 2hp's and all. Perhaps making the General unit smaller (5?)

And are there any plans to give us another show of the map? I'm really exited about this mod but from what I'm reading here is that some of the details could be.. hindering in actually playing it or developing it? Anyone that played R:Total Realism knows what I'm talking about. I just had the feeling when i first heard about this that it would be ,,What would you have done if you could command in Westeros" instead of ,,Follow the books in every aspect", just a speculation not criticism.

But still keep up the good job, from the old map photos and what I'm reading here it looks very promising.

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Yes, there's plans to release shots of our 1.2 map sometime in the near future. As for the generals, we're definitely removing the 2hps from the unit, however the general himself will retain the second hitpoint, if only because gaining new generals or family members will be hard to gain in this mod, and if you're playing someone like Arryn where you only have Robert...well, losing the campaign because he was clipped by a random arrow would suck.

As for following the book, we'e trying the make the environment as close to the book as possible. What you actually do in it is totally up to you. Aside from a few scripted events like Eddard's outcome and possibly a few others, there will be little intrusion to what you can and cannot do with your faction.

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Random, can you elaborate on what details you think might hinder the mod? I haven't had much experience with RTR myself. Most of the mod is still in concept, more suggestions and advice are certainly welcome.

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