Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Marcus

Westeros M2:TW mod- Alpha Map

Recommended Posts

I agree with Bazzle on this one, the Crownlands simply have too few generals and family members, while throwing Jaime/Tyrion out from the Lannister tree avoids the heritage trouble. Tyrion was the Hand, and Jaime Kingsguard, both positions directly under the Crown. And they didn't help their daddy much in the books anyway, the bannermen and lesser Lannisters did most of Tywin's work IIRC.

Well, you might not call getting half your army crushed in the Whispering Wood 'help', but Jaime was playing the role of a general until that point :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Jaime should definitely be with the Lannisters, because he commanded Lannister armies in the field. Lannisters should also have Stafford and Daven as family members. Tyrion can be in either one of the factions (although it would work better if he's with Joffrey).

What about other nobles? Can we add Boltons, Umbers and the rest of Northern lords as Stark generals? That way, we can add the Mountain as general for the Lannisters, Royces as Arryn generals, Tarly, Rowen and Redwyne as Tyrell generals, etc.

We might have a potential problem with the fact that Arryns have no adult male family members (unless we make Littlefinger head of House Arryn). Any thoughts on that?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Robert will have to do, else arryn can't be a faction.

Now, yes, we will get to generals. We've trying to figure out trees first, as they have to be coded. Generals we just need to plop on the map at the right spot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

STARK :

Eddard (dead) & Catelyn (33)

Robb (15)

Sansa (12)

Arya (10)

Brandon (8)

Rickon (4)

ARRYN :

Jon (dead) & Lysa (31)

Robert (8)

TULLY :

Lord Tully (dead) & Lady Tully (dead)

Hoster (old) & Minissa (dead)

Brynden (?)

Edmure (less than 31...)

GREYJOY :

Quellon (dead) & Lady Sunderly (dead)

Balon Greyjoy (?) & Allanys Harlaw (?)

Euron (?)

Victarion (?)

Damphair (?)

Rodrik (dead)

Maron (dead)

Asha (?)

Theon (20)

TYRELL :

Luthor (dead) & Olenna (?)

Mace (?) & Alerie (?)

Mina (?) & Paxter Redwyne (?)

Janna (?)

Willas

Garlan

Loras (16 (agot) or 17 (asos))

Margaery (15)

Hobber (Redwyne)

Horas (Redwyne)

Desmera (Redwyne)

MARTELL :

Princess Martell (dead) & ? (dead)

Doran (?) & Mellario (?)

Mors (dead)

Olivar (dead)

Elia (dead)

Oberyn (?)

Arianne (22) (23 in affc)

Quentyn

Trystane (11)

LANNISTER :

Tytos (dead)

Tywin (?) & Joanna (dead)

Kevan (?) & Dorna

Genna (?) & Emmon

Tygett (dead) & Darlessa

Gerion (dead)

Jaime (32) or for JOFFREY ?

Tyrion (24) or for JOFFREY

Lancel () (Kevan's children)

Willem ()

Martyn ()

Janei ()

(Genna's children are Frey... Do you want them ?)

Tyrek (Tygett's child)

Do we put Tywin's cousin in the family tree, or just as generals ?

JOFFREY BARATHEON :

Robert (dead) & Cersei (32)

Joffrey (13)

Myrcella (9)

Tommen (8)

STANNIS BARATHEON :

Stannis (34) & Selyse (?)

Shireen (10)

RENLY BARATHEON :

Renly (21)

Or maybe :

Steffon (dead) & Cassana (dead)

Robert (dead)

Renly (21)

Edric Storm (12)

THE NIGHT'S WATCH :

Mormont (?)

Benjen (28)

Jon Snow (15)

THE WILDLINGS :

Mance Raider (?) & Dalla (?)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thoughts on family trees:

If Robert Arryn is sufficient to be considered a faction heir for the Arryns, I'd include Rickon as one for the Starks. Catelyn sees them both, and despite Robert being older than Rickon, Rickon is physically and emotionally more mature. I'd more easily believe the North following a young Rickon than the Vale following a young Robert Arryn.

On Jaime Lannister... is it possible for generals to change allegiance? It's true that Jaime was effectively a Lannister general prior to his capture... but after his release, he was committed to the Kingsguard. If generals can shift allegiance, I'd start with Jaime as a Lannister general, but have him shift to Joffrey if he is captured and released. If that's not possible (and I doubt that it is), then I'd say it depends on how you want to characterize Jaime. Prior to his capture, de-handing, and release, Jaime was very much a Lannister. Afterwards, he began his 'redemption', and functioned as the LC of the Kingsguard... putting him in Joffrey's. In either case, I'd leave him as a general, and *not* put him in any inheritance scheme. He refused becoming Lord of the Rock, and there's *no* way he'd inherit the Iron Throne, so he's just a kick-ass general, and that's it.

As for Tyrion, he's a Lannister. He may have served as Joffrey's Hand, but so did Tywin... and I'd imagine Tywin is still in the Lannister army. Moreover, Tyrion also fought at the Green Fork with Tywin's army... he's definitely a Lannister. And had Robb's plan worked, and resulted in Tywin's death with Tyrion still in good standing (and as Hand of the King), I'd imagine Tyrion would've become the Lord of the Rock, as it was legally his...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You see, it's done by age. The Arryns have no other male member, and thus require Robert to continue as a faction. That makes boys "mature" and become characters on the map at age 8. If we allow Rickon to do this, we would have to lower this to four. It wouldn't make any sense at all to have four-year olds running around commanding armies. Even eight is pushing it, but we can't help that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I guess I'm confused as to the difference between heirs and generals in the game... I'm under the impression that there is a difference, and that you can have faction heirs who aren't commanding armies in battle, and likewise that you can have generals who aren't in the line of succession at all. Am I wrong in this?

... I mean, we don't expect to see Lysa Arryn or Cersei Lannister commanding armies, right? Nor Tommen 'Baratheon'?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I guess I'm confused as to the difference between heirs and generals in the game... I'm under the impression that there is a difference, and that you can have faction heirs who aren't commanding armies in battle, and likewise that you can have generals who aren't in the line of succession at all. Am I wrong in this?

... I mean, we don't expect to see Lysa Arryn or Cersei Lannister commanding armies, right? Nor Tommen 'Baratheon'?

In the game, children (in our case, anyone under eight) and married women only exist as portraits in the family tree. Unmarried princesses are "agents", similar to spies, assasins or diplomats, while every adult male family member (including in-laws) is a general.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes and no. Generals are just that, generals with traits and etc that lead armies and govern settlements. No connection to the family tree. Now, female members do nothing after marriage except produce children, and are juts a picture on the tree. Princesses roam around like diplomats trying to suduce generals into marrying them, along with diplomatic skills.

Male family members, once they come of age, can govern settlements, lead armies in battle, pretty much anything except diplomacy. So yes Robert & Tommen would be able to lead armies to battle. If we disallow that to them, they no longer have any political influence until they come of age.

So, example. King is oh, Aelfgar. He's 60. His only son, is, say Stephen. He's 12. He is not the heir until he comes of age at 16. So if Aelfgar dies before his son hits 16, faction is dead, as underage boys have no power.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I take it, then, that 'princesses' do not keep a faction alive if there are no male adults?

... also, does the game allow taking generals (or princesses) hostage/prisoner?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No. No males, no faction.

Also, no. Generals will either escape the battle, or die.... Perhpas you cuold get an ancilliary "Stark prisoner" but the character you "captured" would still be free to move on the map...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmmm, lack of prisoners/hostages is unfortunate... Oh well... I suppose this is why Eddard Stark begins the game dead, as opposed to captured in King's Landing.

If possible, I'd start with Arya and Sansa Stark headed north by boat from King's Landing en route to Winterfell... There's support for that, at least, in the books, as opposed to having them begin in Winterfell. If that's not possible, then I suppose it's not really that major an issue.

As an additional question, can widows remarry? If a princess marries a general, and the general dies, can the princess marry again?

If that's the case, I guess it makes sense to have Robert Arryn be 'of age', in order to keep the Arryn's a viable faction. I'd suggest trying to make Lysa Arryn a 'princess' in the game, so that she might wed and bring additional blood into the ruling line... That seems to be her role in the books, as she is clearly in the market, bringing Lyn Corbray, and the other single men to the Eyrie... and eventually wedding Lord Baelish.

As for Asha Greyjoy, I'd make her a prince... make her character male. It makes more sense than having her as a 'princess', incapable of doing more than marry another general. However, if the Pope in the game can be 'Secretly Female', perhaps that's a trait that can be given to a Male faction leader? If not, is it possible to make her a Greyjoy general not in the succession? This would allow her to be a 'Secretly Female' general, command troops, but not let her gain succession of the line before Theon, Victarion, or Euron...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I still stick with my opinion that Tyrion and Jaime should be in the King Joffrey faction instead of Lannister. First, it gives that faction a little more blood, but secondly, it better represents where they officially serve Westeros -- Hand and Kingsguard to Joffrey.. I admit could see Jaime going either way, as long as he is not available to succeed Tywin, as he was leading Lannister forces at the Whispering Wood. Until he lost his hand, Lannister affairs were more interesting to him than the Iron Throne.

But Tyrion's greatest influence in the overall story of Westeros, by far, was his service as Joffrey's Hand and his defence of King's Landing against Stannis -- much more important than the one battle he fought in for Tywin. King's Landing would have fallen without his efforts building its defenses and seeing to the battle plan. So he should be a Joffrey general.

Either way, it should be arranged that neither Jaime nor Tyrion could inherit Casterly Rock. Jaime refuses it, and Tywin refuses Tyrion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know that Tywin refused to name Tyrion his heir to the Rock, but was Tyrion ever *removed* from any hereditary succession? If Tywin had died on the Green Fork, for example, or had Robb's plan succeeded, and Tywin died in the West, would Cersei have become the Lady of the Rock, or would Tyrion take control? Tywin's preferences matter while he lives... but once dead, I don't see how they control... unless he specifically disinherited Tyrion in a writing that someone (like Cersei or Kevan) could display and enforce. That's my main reason for putting Tyrion in the Lannister faction.

That said, if generals switching factions can't be coded, I'd make Jaime an Iron Throne general outside of the succession. Even at the Whispering Wood where he commands Lannister forces, he's still a member of the Kingsguard, fighting rebels to the throne of King Joffrey.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
As an additional question, can widows remarry? If a princess marries a general, and the general dies, can the princess marry again?

No, they can't. Never seen that in TW games.

As for Asha Greyjoy, I'd make her a prince... make her character male. It makes more sense than having her as a 'princess', incapable of doing more than marry another general. However, if the Pope in the game can be 'Secretly Female', perhaps that's a trait that can be given to a Male faction leader? If not, is it possible to make her a Greyjoy general not in the succession? This would allow her to be a 'Secretly Female' general, command troops, but not let her gain succession of the line before Theon, Victarion, or Euron...

1. She can marry capable general and if it's possible to add that as a trait or as a retainer, it could be the solution.

2. I'm pretty sure, we cannot control heritage. Sometimes it goes really weird.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I dont know what you mean by "he can marry capable general and if it's possible to add that as a trait or as a retainer, it could be the solution."

As for heirs, it can go really weird. My King had three capable sons upon gaining the crown, and the game gave his brother the heir trait, not his children.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I mean, when you get "A Suitable Husband" and click "yes". Then the lucky guy gets "Married to Asha Greyjoy", or something like that, trait.

Or he gets Asha Greyjoy as a retainer (sound weird) and gets additional stars. The question: is it possible to keep it under control, that nobody else would have it.

Edit. I guess, it's way more easier to make her a male and add as many reducing "chances to have children" traits as possible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No way to create a trait called "female commander" or something for Asha? Give her +1 to valor, +1 to command, -1 to morale or some such, as well as making her infertile (and somehow, we need to stop her from marrying princesses...)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
No way to create a trait called "female commander" or something for Asha? Give her +1 to valor, +1 to command, -1 to morale or some such, as well as making her infertile (and somehow, we need to stop her from marrying princesses...)

Ill look into whether it is completely hardcoded or not to have female generals. It is possible we can get around it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I know that Tywin refused to name Tyrion his heir to the Rock, but was Tyrion ever *removed* from any hereditary succession? If Tywin had died on the Green Fork, for example, or had Robb's plan succeeded, and Tywin died in the West, would Cersei have become the Lady of the Rock, or would Tyrion take control? Tywin's preferences matter while he lives... but once dead, I don't see how they control... unless he specifically disinherited Tyrion in a writing that someone (like Cersei or Kevan) could display and enforce. That's my main reason for putting Tyrion in the Lannister faction.

That said, if generals switching factions can't be coded, I'd make Jaime an Iron Throne general outside of the succession. Even at the Whispering Wood where he commands Lannister forces, he's still a member of the Kingsguard, fighting rebels to the throne of King Joffrey.

To my knowledge, there is no deliberate, codable way to ensure a general will change sides. Usually, they only change sides when bribed (and turn traitor) or 'convinced' to marry a different faction's princess. And while Joffrey and Lannister will be allied factions, if Tyrion served Lannister he wouldn't hang out in King's Landing and he couldn't govern Joffrey's defences in King's Landing. But if he was a Joffrey General he could. I think that's more important than having him in the family tree, especially since he's essentially cut out of it.

And I'm guessing that Tywin, an consumate organizer, had already taken whatever steps necessary to ensure Tyrion would never inherit the Rock no matter how or when he died. And Cersei would help.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×