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Marcus

Westeros M2:TW mod- Alpha Map

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Okay... I'm continuing the resource thread here, as it's a mapping issue. The main discussion follows:

Resource info:

The North

* Wool is one important trade item from the North (II: 200)

* There are silversmiths at White Harbor (III: 837)

The Iron Islands

* Iron ore is the chief commodity of the Iron Islands, along with tin and lead (II: 122, 124)

* The sea is harsh around the islands, the soil is poor, and the mines turn out nothing but base metals (II: 125)

* Ships from the Port of Ibben trade at the Iron Islands (II: 126)

* Fish from the sea are abundant enough to sustain the ironborn even in winter (IV: 20)

The Riverlands

* In times of peace fisherfolk in skiffs, grain barges poled downstream, merchants on floating ships, and even brightly painted mummer's boats with quilted sails of many colors could be found on the rivers (III: 20)

* With so much trade on the rivers, villagers will haul their grain and other goods to it to see it sold and carried elsewhere by the merchants (III: 126)

The Vale

* Wheat, corn, and barley. Not even in Highgarden do the pumpkins grow any larger nor is the fruit any sweeter (I: 303)

The Westerlands

* The westerlands are rich with goldmines (I: 260, 680. II: 408. SSL: 25)

* There are skilled goldsmiths at Lannisport (II: 93)

The Reach

* Many fruits are grown in the Reach such as melons, fireplums, peaches, apples, and grapes (I: 34, etc.)

* Oldtown woodharps are desirable (II: 127)

* The Arbor is said to make the finest of wines, from dry fruity reds to a rich golden vintage (I: 493. II: 423)

The Stormlands

***

Dorne

* Dornish summerwine and red wines are well known (I: 492. II: 91)

* Lemons, olives, and pomegranates come chiefly from Dorne (III: 149)

* Dornish yew is used to make longbows (III: 616)

* Dornish plums (III: 743)

* Strong Dornish wine (III: 747)

So...

amber, chocolate, coal, cotton, dyes, fish, furs, gold, grain, iron, ivory, marble, silk, silver, sugar, sulfur, textiles, timber, tin, tobacco, wine, wool

Well, assuming that these are fixed, I'd leave out chocolate, coal, amber, ivory, marble, silk, sugar, sulfur, and tobacco.

That leaves cotton, dyes, fish, furs, gold, grain, iron, textiles, timber, tin, wine, and wool. Of these, there is only specific mention of fish, furs, gold, grain, iron, timber, tin, and wine.

So, of the specific mentions: furs in the North (and presumably beyond the Wall), fish around the Iron Isles, gold in the Westerlands, grain in the Vale, iron in the Iron Isles, timber in Dorne, tin in the Iron Isles, and wine in Dorne and the Reach.

Further, the assumption is that these represent special resource availabilities... i.e. tradeable commodities. Not just *any* timber, but highly sought after timber... thus, sparse timber resources in Dorne to represent Dornish Yew (highly sought after for bows and such). Normal timber (pines and oaks) seem to be available just about anywhere in Westeros, so no limitations there.

As for the others, we know that wool is available in Westeros, and likely cotton as well. I'd place some wool production in the north, as we know from Bran that the Umbers, Liddles, and other holdings tend to keep sheep in the high valleys and meadows. Other likely locations for wool production would be the Stormlands... land doesn't seem to be used for much else, so might as well graze sheep. *If* cotton is to be found, I'd imagine it'd be in the Reach.

Silks are likely imported from abroad... and the only references we have to fine textiles are from the free cities: Myrish lace.

Fish are likely also to be found in the waters near the Stormlands, King's Landing, the North, the Westerlands, the Reach... pretty much everywhere. But the *special* tradeable concentrations appear to be near the Iron Islands... I might place some near King's Landing as well, given the size of the fishmarket that caused Tyrion such headaches in ACoK.

There's no mention of dyes in the books, but the Riverlands aren't noted as having any tradeable resources, but they are apparently fond of bright colors... given their red mud and diverse flora, I'd imagine that dyes could be found there....

That leaves us with chocolate, coal, amber, ivory, marble, silk, sugar, sulfur, and tobacco. *If* it's possible to alter resources and customize them to Westeros, then perhaps a few of these could be modified...

Since the Vale is apparently the breadbasket, I'd make the Reach the fruit basket. Give them fruit resources... a bit more valuable than wheat.

Dragonstone could be rich in Obsidian... though it's not apparently a desired resource (...yet...), so at this point, it doesn't make sense as a tradeable commodity.

Any other possible resources come to mind?

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Other resources:

Ran has noted that there's the Rogers of Amberly, which suggests that amber does exist... though I have no idea where...

Ran has also noted the presence of marble in Westerosi construction. Given the geological processes, I'd think that likely locations for marble would be mountainous regions with some old volcanic activity... we don't know much about Westeros' geologic past, but likely spots would be the foothills of any large mountain chain... thus scattering a *few* marble resources throughout Westeros.

A lot of resources seem to be concentrated in Dorne (wine, some fruit like lemons and oranges, yew, spices, etc.)... though they do seem to be less valuable ones. This plays out well, as Dorne isn't particularly wealthy. These resources should also be pretty sparse. Perhaps a marble resource in the mountains.

The Vale and the Reach, by contrast, should be full to bursting with grain and fruit resources... the Reach also having a number of wine resources around the Arbor and Highgarden. Also, if anywhere is likely to have cotton, it's the Reach. They may have a marble resource each, along the Dornish mountains and in the Mountains of the Moon.

The Crownlands likely have a few food resources (grain/fruit), but that's it... perhaps some fish near King's Landing.

The Stormlands have wool... and perhaps a marble resource... and I think that's it.

Dragonstone has obsidian, *if* we decide to include it as a resource. Perhaps it's present, but with near-zero value... if we decide to expand later to include the Others, the value of Obsidian can shoot through the roof. Dragonstone is too active for marble...

The Iron Islands have iron, tin, and fish.

The Riverlands have roads and river trade... However, they likely may have a few fish resources along the Trident... and perhaps a few grain resources. I'd give them a few dyes as well.

The North has silver near White Harbor (I don't actually recall hearing of silver mines... just accomplished silversmiths... just as good, I suppose). They also have wool to the north in the high valleys and meadows, and furs scattered throughout the wolfswood.

The Westerlands has gold mines clustered around Casterly Rock. Perhaps a marble resource near the foothills, and a couple of grain resources elsewhere.

Beyond the Wall are furs... lots of furs. Not aware of anything else they've got... perhaps ivory from mammoths, but I don't recall those ever being harvested or traded.

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Well, since the PMs seem to be broken, likely a result of the forum update/change, I guess I'll have to talk to Chewie here:

So I was able to narrow down the problem that was causing the error+crash down to the heights file, which is bizarre considering it's simplicity. Anyhow, it's still booting to the campaign screen, and here are the log entries:

20:11:46.788 [system.rpt][always] CPU: SSE2

20:11:46.788 [system.rpt] [always] ==== system log start, build date: Dec 5 2006 version development ===

20:11:46.804 [system.io] [always] mounted pack packs/data_0.pack20:11:46.804 [system.io] [always] mounted pack packs/data_1.pack

20:11:46.804 [system.io] [always] mounted pack packs/data_2.pack

20:11:46.804 [system.io] [always] mounted pack packs/data_3.pack

20:11:46.819 [system.io] [always] mounted pack packs/data_4.pack

20:11:46.819 [system.io] [always] mounted pack packs/localized.pack

20:11:50.600 [script.err] [error] Script Error in ASOIAF/data/export_descr_buildings.txt, at line 1729, column 95

unit(GR Ballista) does not match up to the ownership for faction(byzantium)

20:11:50.600 [script.err] [error] Script Error in ASOIAF/data/export_descr_buildings.txt, at line 1749, column 95

unit(GR Catapult) does not match up to the ownership for faction(byzantium)

20:11:50.600 [script.err] [error] Script Error in ASOIAF/data/export_descr_buildings.txt, at line 1754, column 95

unit(GR Ballista) does not match up to the ownership for faction(byzantium)

...

(etc for many more siege units)...

...

20:12:05.163 [script.err] [error] Script Error in ASOIAF/data/world/maps/campaign/imperial_campaign/descr_strat.txt, at line 59, column 12

could not create settlement at script line 59.

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Balerion -

Why would that be the case? Tommen isn't the Lord of the Rock, he's the King of Westeros and the Seven Kingdoms... The Lord of the Rock after Tywin died was either to be Jaime Lannister, Tyrion Lannister, or Cersei, as Lady of the Rock... Kevan was an option for Castellan, IIRC. The King holds no lands directly except for the Crownlands...

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Why don't you eliminate the Crownlands as a faction altogether? Once Robert eats it, the throne is for all practical purposes a Lannister possession (it would be really odd if Joffrey went to war with his granddad). To convey the importance of the Iron Throne, make possession of King's Landing give a public order boost (since you are seen as the legitimate king), in addition to its obvious use as an enormous city. That makes more sense to me, at least.

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Okay. Curious is now working on putting the family trees ingame, we'll leave resources for Chewie when he gets back. After the family trees are done, the offshoot of that is doing generals. So, I suppose we now need to generate a list of generals for each faction. Good luck? I suppose that's all I need to say.

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Ok... how full a list do we want? ... how many generals are we looking for?

Also, are we just needing names now, or are we getting to the point that we need to start considering traits and stats?

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We'll do traits and stats when we do ancilliaries. No point doing them, implementing new traits then having to redo them. Names will be fine now. And I haven't a clue about numbers....Anything more than 15-20 is excessive for sure. We can gauge a good numbers as we go along.

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15-20 per faction? That sounds pretty high. Then again, I'm used to campaigns that start with the user holding two or three provinces and having 1-2 family members and 1 general, ala vanilla. I guess the idea here is each house already has all their holdings and generals in place.

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Well then... since it appears that family members are already taken care of...

Roose Bolton

Ramsay Snow

Greatjon Umber

Smalljon Umber

Maege Mormont

Dacey Mormont

Rickard Karstark

Harrion Karstark

Wyman Manderly

Wyllis Manderly

Halys Hornwood

Robett Glover

Galbart Glover

Helman Tallhart

Leobald Tallhart

Rodrik Cassel

Medger Cerwyn

I included the lords of the major northern houses that responded to Robb's banner call. I've also included some of the heirs to those houses (for the Tallharts and Glovers, the younger brothers), to fill in the ranks some. I'm torn on whether to include Howland Reed here. Although he's a major northern lord, he didn't respond to Robb's call, and we know desperately little about the man... so I'm leaning towards leaving him out.

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Stark Generals, before any of them rebelled:

Roose Bolton, Lord of the Dreadfort

Jon Umber, called the Greatjon, Lord of Last Hearth

Rickard Karstark, Lord of Karhold

Galbart Glover, of Deepwood Motte

Maege Mormont, Lady of Bear Island

Robett Glover, of Deepwood Motte

Wyman Manderly, Lord of White Harbor

Howland Reed, of Greywater Watch

Lord Medger Cerwyn

If you want more, there are his sword companions, such as the Smalljon, Dacey Mormont, Ser Wendel Manderly, etc. I left out any lords whose allegiance came via the Riverlands since Tully will be a seperate faction.

ETA: MY beat me to it. I like his choices on using heirs over sworn swords and I agree on leaving Howland Reed out...he's something of a phantom, not a battle commander.

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Thanks Baz...

I agree with you completely... certain generals of Robb's would have to be 'stolen' away... Like Brynden Tully. He's gonna be a difficult one, as his loyalty to Lysa Arryn is quite low, but in general he's quite honorable. Perhaps there's a way to do a specific "Disloyal to Lysa Arryn" trait?

Along those lines, is there perhaps some way we can represent the strong ties between the North and the Riverlands by making it more likely that the Riverlands would accept vassal status to the North? That would probably be the best way to represent what happened in the books... the Riverlands accepted Robb as King... and then one of the Riverlands houses (the Freys) along with two of the Northern houses (Karstarks & Boltons) rebelled... taking their troops with them, and with two (Bolton and Frey) pulling their troops and fighting a battle with Robb's host...

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Continuing on...

Lord Sawane Botley of Lordsport

Harren Botley

Lord Dunstan Drumm of Old Wyk

Denys Drumm

Lord Gorold Goodbrother of Hammerhorn

Gormond Goodbrother

Lord Rodrik Harlaw of Harlaw

Lord Meldred Merlyn of Pebbleton

Lord Waldon Wynch of Iron Holt

Ralf Kenning of Harlaw

Jon Myre of Harlaw

Gyles Farwynd of Lonely Light

Donnor Saltcliffe of Saltcliffe

The Sparr of Great Wyk

Steffarion Sparr

Okay, for the Iron Islands, I had to reach pretty far down... as there aren't that many lords really mentioned... a lot of captains in the Iron Fleet though... so I included some of them that have houses of their own. Of course, if we need more captains, we can get them...

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If they're more apt to be on a fleet, we can include them as Admirals instead of generals. And I believe I said 15-20 would be excessive, so if you're reaching to find generals, you can probably cut those out. We should have more generals than family members, but not a Freyish amount...

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I'd imagine that we'll likely need more generals for the Iron Islands, given the amount of fleet they'll want to build out... and yes, Dagmar and the other Captains (Ralf the Limper, Andrik the Unsmiling, etc.) should be listed as full generals as well... I can't find a good source for them though... Tower of the Hand limits itself to Houses...

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