Heresy 212 The Wolves

[Matthew.]

14 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

 And how is it not ominous that the Faceless Men might be eating human flesh? I actually think the reference to eating human flesh has a double meaning or metaphor here.

I'm speaking specifically of the structure of the sentence. 

"Many a night his sister's pack gorged on the flesh of sheep and cows and horses, the prey of men, and sometimes even on the flesh of man himself."

Translated into symbol, this is "The Faceless Men exploit/feed upon people, people, people, the prey of people, and sometimes even people." One can go a step further and describe what sorts of people each animal symbolizes (the followers, the placid, the exploited laborer) but that whole "even" still becomes inelegant prose--a flaw that is not, at least to me, irrelevant. The medium is the message. 

The signs that this is a wolf dream are not just in relation to the straightforward alignment of plot circumstance - eg, the qualities of the 'little sister' fit the description of reports of Nymeria's near the Trident - but through the author's usage of language, the prose shift that the author uses to create the atmosphere of a wolf dream.

For example, Ghost interprets the Wall distinctly from Jon:

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The white wolf ran from it, racing toward the cave of night where the sun had hidden, his breath frosting in the air. On starless nights the great cliff was as black as stone, a darkness towering high above the wide world, but when the moon came out it shimmered pale and icy as a frozen stream. The wolf's pelt was thick and shaggy, but when the wind blew along the ice no fur could keep the chill out. 

I would also observe the consistency of language, of "wolf thought."
Bran-in-Summer:

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He could smell his brother too, a familiar scent, strong and earthy, his scent as black as his coat. His brother was loping around the walls, full of fury.

...

He had a pack as well, once. Five they had been, and a sixth who stood aside. Somewhere down inside him were the sounds the men had given them to tell one from the other, but it was not by their sounds he knew them. He remembered their scents, his brothers and his sisters. They all had smelled alike, had smelled of pack, but each was different too.

...

His angry brother with the hot green eyes was near, the prince felt, though he had not seen him for many hunts. Yet with every sun that set he grew more distant, and he had been the last. The others were far scattered, like leaves blown by the wild wind.

...

Steam is rising off the hot pools, and the red leaves of the weirwood are rustling. The smells are richer than here, and before long the moon will rise and my brother will sing to it.

Jon-in-Ghost:
 

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Far off, he could hear his packmates calling to him, like to like. They were hunting too. A wild rain lashed down upon his black brother as he tore at the flesh of an enormous goat, washing the blood from his side where the goat's long horn had raked him.

...

In another place, his little sister lifted her head to sing to the moon, and a hundred small grey cousins broke off their hunt to sing with her. 

...

That was where his brother was, the grey brother who smelled of summer.

Describing the brothers by their fur color, their unique scent, singing to the moon, prey and the hunt--this is the world as Ghost experiences it, and the siblings in these moments are the direwolves. There is a certain amount of overlap between each wolf and their corresponding Stark, but each wolf also has their own distinct characteristics--and in particular, Shaggydog is the most feral, the dominant personality of his pairing, and his 'characterization' is constantly reinforced in the wolf dreams.

(as a slight aside on the above, while Rickon will surely become savage in time as a consequence of his bond, reading all of the above passages as relating more to Rickon's actions and circumstances rather than Shaggydog's seems a stretch--Rickon is five years old at the beginning of ADWD)

[Brad Stark]

I think Rikon dies but his wolf lives.  We've established what happened to a wolf less Stark in Sansa, GRRM will want to write about the inverse.  We already have clues about Shaggy being wild, he'd be even more so without Rikon. 

[Melifeather]

7 hours ago, JNR said:

OK, let's go about this another way.

What is it, from Jon's thoughts from the most recent ASOIAF novel, that tells you Jon can sense Bran and Rickon are still alive? 

"Murdered," "beheaded," and "dead" all seem to me to establish that Jon thinks they are dead.

Can you cite any different passage in ADWD in which Jon demonstrates, contradicting the above, that he knows Bran and Rickon are still alive?

In his dream he senses their connections through their wolves, but when he’s awake he’s unsure if his dreams are truth. He’s confused about what he’s sensing and concludes it must be the wolves, because the ravens brought news that they were dead.

 

4 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I'm speaking specifically of the structure of the sentence. 

"Many a night his sister's pack gorged on the flesh of sheep and cows and horses, the prey of men, and sometimes even on the flesh of man himself."

Translated into symbol, this is "The Faceless Men exploit/feed upon people, people, people, the prey of people, and sometimes even people." One can go a step further and describe what sorts of people each animal symbolizes (the followers, the placid, the exploited laborer) but that whole "even" still becomes inelegant prose--a flaw that is not, at least to me, irrelevant. The medium is the message. 

The signs that this is a wolf dream are not just in relation to the straightforward alignment of plot circumstance - eg, the qualities of the 'little sister' fit the description of reports of Nymeria's near the Trident - but through the author's usage of language, the prose shift that the author uses to create the atmosphere of a wolf dream.

For example, Ghost interprets the Wall distinctly from Jon:

I would also observe the consistency of language, of "wolf thought."
Bran-in-Summer:

Jon-in-Ghost:
 

Describing the brothers by their fur color, their unique scent, singing to the moon, prey and the hunt--this is the world as Ghost experiences it, and the siblings in these moments are the direwolves. There is a certain amount of overlap between each wolf and their corresponding Stark, but each wolf also has their own distinct characteristics--and in particular, Shaggydog is the most feral, the dominant personality of his pairing, and his 'characterization' is constantly reinforced in the wolf dreams.

(as a slight aside on the above, while Rickon will surely become savage in time as a consequence of his bond, reading all of the above passages as relating more to Rickon's actions and circumstances rather than Shaggydog's seems a stretch--Rickon is five years old at the beginning of ADWD)

The observations are melds of human with wolf. The humans have animal characteristics, and the wolves have human characteristics. 

The line about eating human flesh I’m thinking refers to how the Faceless Men can be hired to kill. The buyer/purchaser gives nearly all they have - a life for a life, or one human life for another. Seems a type of cannibalism to me to sacrifice yourself to gain the life of another. There’s also the wearing of human skins as glamours. The people that willingly come to Hobaw I’m assuming become the body parts used.

[JNR]

15 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

In his dream he senses their connections through their wolves, but when he’s awake he’s unsure if his dreams are truth.

OK, I think I see what you're saying.  The idea is basically...

1. Jon, skinchanging Ghost, can sense Nymeria and her physical surroundings.

2. Therefore, Jon ought to be able to sense Summer's and Shaggydog's physical surroundings too

3. Those surroundings sometimes include Bran and Rickon

4. Therefore, Jon ought to know that Bran and Rickon are alive

I agree that that is conceivable.  The problem is that what ought to be possible hasn't actually happened. 

Specifically, Jon never does have a wolfdream in which, as Ghost, he senses Summer-with-Bran or Shaggydog-with-Rickon. 

For instance, here's Jon/Ghost sensing Shaggydog and Shaggydog's surroundings:

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A wild rain lashed down upon his black brother as he tore at the flesh of an enormous goat, washing the blood from his side where the goat's long horn had raked him.

There is no Rickon here for Jon to notice. 

Why?  Because it's night, and Shaggydog is hunting... and that means Shaggydog is not physically around Rickon.   And because of this, Jon does not know Rickon is still alive.

Where I think we can agree is that in a future book such as TWOW, it is possible that that will change... that Jon will skinchange Ghost at a time when Shaggydog is around Rickon.

For instance, if Jon has been seriously wounded but not killed in the Watch's attempted assassination, then he may be in a coma during the day.  And this is a time when Shaggydog is more likely to be physically around Rickon, and in this way, Jon will learn Rickon still lives.

Bran and Summer are more awkward because the Wall blocks Ghost from sensing anything in Summer's life at all, including whether Bran is still alive.  So I suspect Jon will first learn about Rickon, then later -- perhaps much later -- about Bran.

[Janneyc1]

So I am new here so forgive me if this has been covered already, but we have seen numerous times in the story that the Starks are associated with Death. Their crypts are a "Stark Place", the children play in the crypts, Arya is training to become an assassin, etc. We can list numerous examples of their association with Death and that is what is influencing my speculation that the Starks aren't psychic werewolves, but ghosts or shades, something to that effect. I know that it has been theorized that the Others are ancient allies of the Starks, but what if the Ancient Starks became Others? IDK what are you opinions on this?

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Janneyc1 said:

So I am new here so forgive me if this has been covered already, but we have seen numerous times in the story that the Starks are associated with Death. Their crypts are a "Stark Place", the children play in the crypts, Arya is training to become an assassin, etc. We can list numerous examples of their association with Death and that is what is influencing my speculation that the Starks aren't psychic werewolves, but ghosts or shades, something to that effect. I know that it has been theorized that the Others are ancient allies of the Starks, but what if the Ancient Starks became Others? IDK what are you opinions on this?

Welcome to Heresy. This is indeed something which we have discussed a number of times and I rather suspect that while GRRM has previously referenced the Sidhe, an even bigger influence may be the Nazgul.

[Matthew.]

19 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

The observations are melds of human with wolf. The humans have animal characteristics, and the wolves have human characteristics. 

The wolf dreams are essentially double POVs, so there is a melding of the POV and the wolf, but I think the wolf dreams as an in-world concept, and GRRM's own comments about writing wolf POVs, are clear about what is happening in plot terms: Jon isn't having a figurative dream with elements of prophecy and symbol (though the latter elements might also be there, might also overlap with what is happening), he's unconsciously warged into Ghost while his own body sleeps, so many of the images are literal. 

Jon is, in Ghost, literally hunting, literally looking at the Wall, literally psychically sensing the other direwolves--while at the same time, his human body is also hearing the crow calling his name in his room. 

We might take that a step further and say that perhaps there's a proxy chain of connection at play that Jon's waking mind doesn't understand--say, Jon is connected to Ghost, Ghost is connected to Nymeria, Nymeria is connected to Arya, so maybe Jon's sleeping mind has insight his waking mind does not, and maybe even in time, Jon will become stronger and new magic potential will unfold; however, the role of the direwolves here is central, and what the wolf dream reveals about Ghost is potentially more important than what it reveals about Jon.

To revisit what has been brought up previously, Ghost has the coloring of the weirwood, Ghost warned Jon of Othor attacking the LC, Ghost sensed the danger at the Fist, Ghost found the cache of dragonglass, and now we learn that Ghost can vividly sense his siblings. I realize I'm being repetitive, but I have no problem with reading a double meaning into this passage, but I do have a problem with re-contextualizing these visions as belonging more to Jon than to Ghost--or not belonging to Ghost at all.

[Matthew.]

3 hours ago, Janneyc1 said:

So I am new here so forgive me if this has been covered already, but we have seen numerous times in the story that the Starks are associated with Death. Their crypts are a "Stark Place", the children play in the crypts, Arya is training to become an assassin, etc. We can list numerous examples of their association with Death and that is what is influencing my speculation that the Starks aren't psychic werewolves, but ghosts or shades, something to that effect. I know that it has been theorized that the Others are ancient allies of the Starks, but what if the Ancient Starks became Others? IDK what are you opinions on this?

It comes up on occasion, and I don't have anything approaching a specific theory here, just a couple observations that may add up to something, and may not.

First and foremost, there's the moment in aGoT, when Bran dreams that the 3EC brought him into the crypts and he spoke to Eddard. Later, Bran is driven by the dream to go into the crypts, where he discovers Rickon is also there, "waiting for father," all of this after Eddard has died, but before news of his death has come to Winterfell. 

During this same time period, Hodor is terrified of the crypts, and refuses to take Bran down (so Bran needs Osha and Luwin's help instead), yet Hodor's terror is unique to the moment, and not a general fear of the crypts:

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Hodor_and_the_Crypts
 

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After rereading both AGOT and ACOK I was wondering about one question: Why was Hodor not afraid of the crypts under Winterfell at the end of ACOK? In AGOT Hodor was very afraid of the crypts, he wouldn't take Bran down there, but in ACOK he stayed with Bran and Rickon in the crypt for quite a while, how did he stay there if he was so afraid?

Hodor was only afraid of the crypts =at that specific time.=  Not before and not after.

In short, Hodor's terror gives the whole thing an added weight, an implication that this isn't just a premonition of death, but something important is happening in the crypts at that point in time, which is tempting to reconcile with various other superstitions, myths, and dreams surrounding the crypts: the idea that the iron swords are there to keep the spirits locked in their tombs (some of the swords now missing, others rusted away), Eddard dreaming of himself walking through the crypts while the kings watch him with "eyes of ice," and Jon's dreams of the kings coming out of their tombs.

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Welcome to Heresy. This is indeed something which we have discussed a number of times and I rather suspect that while GRRM has previously referenced the Sidhe, an even bigger influence may be the Nazgul.

Or maybe the Dead Men of Dunharrow, ready to fulfill an old oath. They are also known as the Shadow Host or simply the Shadows

[Brad Stark]

3 hours ago, Janneyc1 said:

So I am new here so forgive me if this has been covered already, but we have seen numerous times in the story that the Starks are associated with Death. Their crypts are a "Stark Place", the children play in the crypts, Arya is training to become an assassin, etc. We can list numerous examples of their association with Death and that is what is influencing my speculation that the Starks aren't psychic werewolves, but ghosts or shades, something to that effect. I know that it has been theorized that the Others are ancient allies of the Starks, but what if the Ancient Starks became Others? IDK what are you opinions on this?

We've discussed this before, but also wanted to add the Starks defeated the Barrow King who was associated with death and married his daughters, similar to the Warg King.  The Others seem to be both a force of death and cold as well. 

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

Or maybe the Dead Men of Dunharrow, ready to fulfill an old oath. They are also known as the Shadow Host or simply the Shadows

There's certainly that and I've drawn parallels with the Wild Hunt before. The Nazgul are, if you like, a convenient shorthand, but given Tolkein's own scholarship, they themselves are most likely based on the Wild Hunt in one of their many manifestations.

Either way, it comes back to GRRM's remark about the walkers having no culture but that we will learn of their history, which very much suggests to me that they are not a separate race, but have "history". And of course we have the business of their being a different kind of life and Ser Puddles being held together by magic

[St Daga]

10 hours ago, Janneyc1 said:

So I am new here so forgive me if this has been covered already, but we have seen numerous times in the story that the Starks are associated with Death. Their crypts are a "Stark Place", the children play in the crypts, Arya is training to become an assassin, etc. We can list numerous examples of their association with Death and that is what is influencing my speculation that the Starks aren't psychic werewolves, but ghosts or shades, something to that effect. I know that it has been theorized that the Others are ancient allies of the Starks, but what if the Ancient Starks became Others? IDK what are you opinions on this?

Your mention of the Stark's being associated with crypts or the underworld or places of death flares something I had been thinking over the last several days, and that is the association in our text of the phrase "hellhound". A hellhound in mythology is associated with death, guarding places of death, such as Cerberus. Hellhounds are often referred to in northern European and Scandinavian literature. Garmr is the Norse goddess Hel's hound, who guards the gates of Hel. Hellhounds are described in myth and literature and are usually terrifying beasts.

This idea of Cerberus or Garmr makes me think of the stone direwolves within in the crypts with the statues. I know they are not guarding the doorway to the crypts, but the imagery is similar. They are guarding or protecting the Stark's themselves.

Hellhound is mentioned five times in the text. Twice in Cresson's prologue, with him noting a hellhound and a wyvern as part of Dragonstone, and then later he talks to the hellhound statue and refers to it as "his". Davos also makes note of the hellhound's in Dragonstone, among other mythical beasts. Tyrion refers to his father's "hellhounds" by which he indicates Gregor Clegane, Armory Lorch and Vargo Hoat (Vargo is interesting to me since his imagery is much more goat than hound).** And lastly, Bran tells us that Symeon Star-Eyes saw hellhounds fighting at the Nightfort. Does this mean direwolves fighting at the Nightfort? Or Stark's? Or something else?

Hellhounds also bring the Clegane brother's to mind, and with their sigil it makes some sense. Three hounds does hint at a three headed hound, such as Cerberus. If looking at "hell" and "hound" separately in text search, there are seven references. The first is to Chett's dogs while on the great ranging north, and the other six are from Arya's POV and refer to Sandor Clegane, one with her directly telling him "You go to hell, Hound".

So, my question is, are hellhound's direwolves or are they something completely different?

** Dany also refers to Tywin and Ned as the Usurper's dogs, which does bring to mind Tyrion's thoughts on Tywin's hellhounds. Can a lion be a hellhound? Certainly a Stark direwolf could fit the concept, especially with the Stark's association with the underworld.

[St Daga]

My recent search of barrows and cairns and cists lead me all over the British Isles and several of my findings in Heresy 211 lead me to Dartmoor in Devon. This area of moorland reminded me of reading The Hound of the Baskerville's probably twenty years ago. So, I decided to refresh my memory and reread, mostly looking for references to the "hellhound" that was said to be a curse upon the Baskerville family. 

If you look at drawings and imagery that exist of this fictional hound, it is often shown with glowing red eyes. But that is not a part of the text that we get in the Sherlock Holmes story.

Some of the wording I picked out of the text about this demon hound is "fiend dog", "a large black calf", "spectral hound" is mentioned multiple times, along with the wording black, silent, monstrous with "hell-fire shooting from his mouth and eyes", and is often associated with a mournful or terrifying howl or moaning sound coming from said dog, Dr Watson even describing the sound as melancholy. Most of these descriptions are from gossip and rumor, but some are legitimate eye witness accounts. Not to spoil the story if you have never read it, but the version of the dog in this story is a large black hound that has been starved and painted with phosperous to make it glow, and placed on the scent of certain individuals in a form of haunting associated with the Baskerville family curse.

But the origin's of the Baskerville curse are interesting. A man named Hugo Baskerville apparently kidnapped a young maiden who wanted nothing to do with him, locked her up in his home, and then went to drinking and feasting with his buddies. She managed to escape from his home and run off into the darkness of the moor's in an attempt to reach the safety of her family home. Hugo, when finding out she was gone, apparently went into a rage and called upon the devil himself to help him hunt the girl down. So Hugo takes off across the moor's with a pack of hounds chasing the girl. When his fellow buddies come upon him later, the girl is dead, apparently hunted to exhaustion by the hounds, but interstingly, Hugo is dead to. His own hounds won't come near him, and a large black hound is eating his throat out. From this time, the curse of the Baskerville's is associated with this hound.

From the text, eye witness accounts (drunk and terrified) report, "But it was not the sight of her body, nor yet was it that of the body of Hugo Baskerville lying near her, which raised the hair upon the heads of these three daredevil roysterers, but it was that, standing over Hugo, and plucking at his throat, there stood a foul thing, a great, black beast, shaped like a hound, yet larger than any hound that ever mortal eye has rested upon. And even as they looked the thing tore the throat out of Hugo Baskerville, on which, as it turned its blazing eyes and dripping jaws upon them, the three shrieked with fear and rode for dear life, still screaming, across the moor."

So, this description does bring to mind the direwolves. A great black beast reminds me specifically of Shaggydog. The size of it could hint at any of the direwolves. Ghost, Grey Wind, Summer and Shaggydog all at one time or another are described with eyes that burn or glow or are like embers or coals (THotB text uses "blazing" to describe the eyes, but it's similar). Grey Wind and Summer have tore the throats out of men, even Ghost nipped at Rast's throat, Shaggy has taken bites out of several people (not a throat so far) and Nymeria took a piece of Joffrey as well as dining on humans all over the riverlands. 

I think all of the direwolves could apply, but just based on color alone, I am drawn to Shaggydog as a nod toward the hellhound of the Baskerville's. But this raises a question to me. I have always seen the direwolves as protective of the Stark's, but if looking at the Hound of the Baskerville's, this demon dog was a curse upon the family. Could the direwolves in the crypts be containing the Stark dead as much as the swords are said to hold the spirits of the dead in their tombs. The direwolves as protectors are much more appealing to me than guards, honestly, but I like to look at things from different angles.

I would rather like to think of the direwolves as part of the Starks, something to protect and avenge the Starks, which seems like that is what the demon hound of the Baskerville's is for, perhaps to protect and avenge the kidnapped maiden who died upon the moors, hunted like a beast. Some of this might come from Tyrion's imagery in his very first POV of him being hunted through the "dark forest of the mind, running naked before the pack".

Of course, Sherlock Homes tells us that this current haunting of the Hound of the Baskervilles is a ruse, a ploy to incite terror, but what about the very first sitting, the sitting that involved the death of a maiden and Hugo Baskerville? What about that, Sherlock?

Are these direwolves a bit of an omage to the hellhounds from Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's work? Or are the "hellhounds" of ASOIAF something completely different than the direwolves of the Starks?

 

For a long time, I have had an idea that Rickon and/or Shaggydog is the valonqar that Cersei fears. Something about the black beast with his green eyes, and Cersei's Maggy the Frog dream being shadowed all in dim green light seem to tie to Shaggydog and Rickon. Both Shaggy and Rickon could fit the bill as "little brother" and I think both are capable of great violence. I could easily seeing a enormous black direwolf ripping Cersei's throat clean out while Rickon watching with a smile upon his face. Rickon seems to be a contradiction of youth and innocence and blood and violence with his great black beast of a wolf leading the way.

 

[St Daga]

And not to derail the idea of this thread being in relation to the wolves of the story, when rereading The Hound of the Baskervilles, some idea's of the beginnings of this curse reminded me a bit of the idea presented in our story. Namely the kidnapping of a maiden. Just a few excerpts from the text of THotB mostly about the incident that lead to the curse of the Baskerville family.

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It chanced that this Hugo came to love (if, indeed, so dark a passion may be known under so bright a name) the daughter of a yeoman who held lands near the Baskerville estate. But the young maiden, being discreet and of good repute, would ever avoid him, for she feared his evil name. So it came to pass that one Michaelmas this Hugo, with five or six of his idle and wicked companions, stole down upon the farm and carried off the maiden, her father and brothers being from home, as he well knew. When they had brought her to the Hall the maiden was placed in an upper chamber, while Hugo and his friends sat down to a long carouse, as was their nightly custom.

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Now, the poor lass upstairs was like to  have her wits turned at the singing and shouting and terrible oaths which came up to her from below, for they say that the words used by Hugo Baskerville, when he was in wine, were such as might blast the man who said them. At last in the stress of her fear she did that which might have daunted the bravest or most active man, for by the aid of the growth of ivy which covered (and still covers) the south wall she came down from under the eaves, and so homeward across the moor, there being three leagues betwixt the Hall and her father’s farm.

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‘It chanced that some little time later Hugo left his guests to carry food and drink—with other worse things, perchance—to his captive, and so found the cage empty and the bird escaped. Then, as it would seem, he became as one that hath a devil, for, rushing down the stairs into the dininghall, he sprang upon the great table, flagons and trenchers flying before him, and he cried aloud before all the company that he would that very night render his body and soul to the Powers of Evil if he might but overtake the wench. And while the revellers stood aghast at the fury of the man, one more wicked or, it may be, more drunken than the rest, cried out that they should put the hounds upon her. Whereat Hugo ran from the house, crying to his grooms that they should saddle his mare and unkennel the pack, and giving the hounds a kerchief of the maid’s, he swung them to the line, and so off full cry in the moonlight over the moor.

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‘Now, for some space the revellers stood agape, unable to understand all that had been done in such haste. But anon their bemused wits awoke to the nature of the deed which was like to be done upon the moorlands. Everything was now in an uproar, some calling for their pistols, some for their horses, and some for another flask of wine. But at length some sense came back to their crazed minds, and the whole of them, thirteen in number, took horse and started in pursuit. The moon shone clear above them, and they rode swiftly abreast, taking that course which the maid must needs have taken if she were to reach her own home.

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‘The company had come to a halt, more sober men, as you may guess, than when they started. The most of them would by no means advance, but three of them, the boldest, or it may be the most drunken, rode forward down the goyal. Now, it opened into a broad space in which stood two of those great stones, still to be seen there, which were set by certain forgotten peoples in the days of old. The moon was shining bright upon the clearing, and there in the centre lay the unhappy maid where she had fallen, dead of fear and of fatigue. But it was not the sight of her body, nor yet was it that of the body of Hugo Baskerville lying near her, which raised the hair upon the heads of these three daredevil roysterers, but it was that, standing over Hugo, and plucking at his throat, there stood a foul thing, a great, black beast, shaped like a hound, yet larger than any hound that ever mortal eye has rested upon. And even as they looked the thing tore the throat out of Hugo Baskerville, on which, as it turned its blazing eyes and dripping jaws upon them, the three shrieked with fear and rode for dear life, still screaming, across the moor. One, it is said, died that very night of what he had seen, and the other twain were but broken men for the rest of their days.

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‘Such is the tale, my sons, of the coming of the hound which is said to have plagued the family so sorely ever since.

I have no idea of GRRM has ever read the Hound of the Baskerville's but it's one of the more famous of the Sherlock Holmes stories, so I would think he is familiar with it. Some of the idea's are quite intriguing when thinking of the story we have of Lyanna's kidnapping by Rhaegar. I wonder if some of the detail is telling us something, perhaps a curse was brought down on Rhaegar's  head at some point, or a curse brought down by Rhaegar. In the story, over the years, the Baskerville family has often heard the howling of a ghastly hound upon the moors. Dany hear's howling, but more importantly, Cersei seem's bothered by the direwolves and Tyrion is also unsettled by them. We are never told that Jaime is bothered by the direwolves (but Jaime fears nothing), but he thinks of them, and when he hears of a huge wolf leading a pack of man-killers in the riverlands, he thinks that it could be Arya's missing wolf.

Any way, via the test of ASOIAF and the world book, we are told that Rhaegar set out with six companions and that journey lead to the kidnapping of Lyanna Stark. In this story, we have Hugo setting off on the moor's with five or six of his companions to kidnap a maiden that he loved. He locked her up but she escaped him. He hunted her down like an animal (which hint's at the Bolton's a bit) and both Hugo and the maiden end up dead upon the moors. Of course, our story hints at Lyanna's and Rhaegar's deaths at much different times that this short story implies with Hugo's actions, but there is the idea of this great hellhound hunting down Hugo, not in time to save the maiden, but was still capable of tearing the throat out of our dastardly kidnapper. Not sure if any of this applies to ASOIAF, but those few similarities caught my attention.

A few thoughts. If GRRM is nodding his head to the curse of the Baskervilles in his own story, what could it mean?  Did the kidnapping start out like this, but Lyanna and Rhaegar met their deaths, not immediately but later in the story. Or could Lyanna have died much earlier than we think? If Lyanna died from such a stunt, it does make Brandon's anger and actions make a bit more sense. Was that really Rhaegar in his armor on the Trident? I know Jaime talked to Rhaegar in the Red Keep just prior to the Trident, so Rhaegar must have been alive still, but this little blurb of a kidnapping of a maiden from the moor's and the concept of a hellhound curse are rather interesting in regards to ASOIAF. 

 

 

[Melifeather]

14 hours ago, JNR said:

OK, I think I see what you're saying.  The idea is basically...

1. Jon, skinchanging Ghost, can sense Nymeria and her physical surroundings.

2. Therefore, Jon ought to be able to sense Summer's and Shaggydog's physical surroundings too

3. Those surroundings sometimes include Bran and Rickon

4. Therefore, Jon ought to know that Bran and Rickon are alive

I agree that that is conceivable.  The problem is that what ought to be possible hasn't actually happened. 

Specifically, Jon never does have a wolfdream in which, as Ghost, he senses Summer-with-Bran or Shaggydog-with-Rickon. 

For instance, here's Jon/Ghost sensing Shaggydog and Shaggydog's surroundings:

There is no Rickon here for Jon to notice. 

Why?  Because it's night, and Shaggydog is hunting... and that means Shaggydog is not physically around Rickon.   And because of this, Jon does not know Rickon is still alive.

Where I think we can agree is that in a future book such as TWOW, it is possible that that will change... that Jon will skinchange Ghost at a time when Shaggydog is around Rickon.

For instance, if Jon has been seriously wounded but not killed in the Watch's attempted assassination, then he may be in a coma during the day.  And this is a time when Shaggydog is more likely to be physically around Rickon, and in this way, Jon will learn Rickon still lives.

Bran and Summer are more awkward because the Wall blocks Ghost from sensing anything in Summer's life at all, including whether Bran is still alive.  So I suspect Jon will first learn about Rickon, then later -- perhaps much later -- about Bran.

Naaa,  you're still not getting what I'm saying. Or maybe you do, but you're playing some lame game that you think will prove me wrong? You (and others) continue to assert that the one he cannot sense is Summer, when he says he can sense Summer!!! 

You don't have to accept my explanations, but your denials don't prove me wrong either, especially since you cannot explain the dream literally.  You prefer a literal interpretation and I see something else. No big whoop. I see a double meaning, or rather something closer to metaphorical. I understand that you all think I'm going overboard on the metaphors and symbolism, but I actually think GRRM has written ASOIAF in this manner on purpose - for what reason I cannot say. I know he's on record as saying that he wants to surprise the reader, because as a voracious reader himself he dislikes stories where he can guess the ending. He likes to be surprised, so he's giving us many, but they cannot come from out of left field where it doesn't make any sense. I am confident that when the series is complete and all is revealed it will make sense in hind site. In the meantime I'll repeat my list of evidence, which has been offered before, and which seems to have been completely disregarded.

Evidence:

1) the number of "wolves" in the dream totals five (four remained, and one he can no longer sense). Current direwolf count: four. Current Stark wargs (including Jon): five.  

2) the use of "little sister" when litter mates don't have older or younger siblings.

3) the moon looks down on the wolf and calls him Snow - 9 times.

4) the "wolves" sensed were, in this order:

  Rickon - A wild rain lashed down upon his black brother as he tore at the flesh of an enormous goat, washing the blood from his side where the goat’s long horn had raked him.  

  Arya - his little sister lifted her head to sing to the moon, and a hundred small grey cousins broke off their hunt to sing with her. The hills were warmer where they were, and full of food. Many a night his sister’s pack gorged on the flesh of sheep and cows and horses, the prey of men, and sometimes even on the flesh of man himself.

  Bran - On the other side the wind was colder still, the wolf sensed. That was where his brother was, the grey brother who smelled of summer.

5) the one not sensed is Sansa, because her wolf is dead.

6) this dream occurs early on in Dance after Robb and Grey Wind's death, and there is no mention or description of Robb's Grey Wind in the dream.

 

10 hours ago, Matthew. said:

The wolf dreams are essentially double POVs, so there is a melding of the POV and the wolf, but I think the wolf dreams as an in-world concept, and GRRM's own comments about writing wolf POVs, are clear about what is happening in plot terms: Jon isn't having a figurative dream with elements of prophecy and symbol (though the latter elements might also be there, might also overlap with what is happening), he's unconsciously warged into Ghost while his own body sleeps, so many of the images are literal. 

Jon is, in Ghost, literally hunting, literally looking at the Wall, literally psychically sensing the other direwolves--while at the same time, his human body is also hearing the crow calling his name in his room. 

We might take that a step further and say that perhaps there's a proxy chain of connection at play that Jon's waking mind doesn't understand--say, Jon is connected to Ghost, Ghost is connected to Nymeria, Nymeria is connected to Arya, so maybe Jon's sleeping mind has insight his waking mind does not, and maybe even in time, Jon will become stronger and new magic potential will unfold; however, the role of the direwolves here is central, and what the wolf dream reveals about Ghost is potentially more important than what it reveals about Jon.

To revisit what has been brought up previously, Ghost has the coloring of the weirwood, Ghost warned Jon of Othor attacking the LC, Ghost sensed the danger at the Fist, Ghost found the cache of dragonglass, and now we learn that Ghost can vividly sense his siblings. I realize I'm being repetitive, but I have no problem with reading a double meaning into this passage, but I do have a problem with re-contextualizing these visions as belonging more to Jon than to Ghost--or not belonging to Ghost at all.

 

When you say the wolf dream is essentially a double POV, you are closer to my assertions, but then you go back to claiming the dream is literal again. How can you claim it is literal when the first dream was obviously that of Jon dreaming that he was a white wolf? Lets reexamine the first dream:

Quote

 

  When he closed his eyes, he dreamed of direwolves.

  There were five of them when there should have been six, and they were scattered, each apart from the others. He felt a deep ache of emptiness, a sense of incompleteness. The forest was vast and cold, and they were so small, so lost. His brothers were out there somewhere, and his sister, but he had lost their scent. He sat on his haunches and lifted his head to the darkening sky, and his cry echoed through the forest, a long lonely mournful sound. As it died away, he pricked up his ears, listening for an answer, but the only sound was the sigh of blowing snow.

  Jon?

  The call came from behind him, softer than a whisper, but strong too. Can a shout be silent? He turned his head, searching for his brother, for a glimpse of a lean grey shape moving beneath the trees, but there was nothing, only . . .

  A weirwood.

  It seemed to sprout from solid rock, its pale roots twisting up from a myriad of fissures and hairline cracks. The tree was slender compared to other weirwoods he had seen, no more than a sapling, yet it was growing as he watched, its limbs thickening as they reached for the sky. Wary, he circled the smooth white trunk until he came to the face. Red eyes looked at him. Fierce eyes they were, yet glad to see him. The weirwood had his brother’s face. Had his brother always had three eyes?

  Not always, came the silent shout. Not before the crow.

  He sniffed at the bark, smelled wolf and tree and boy, but behind that there were other scents, the rich brown smell of warm earth and the hard grey smell of stone and something else, something terrible. Death, he knew. He was smelling death. He cringed back, his hair bristling, and bared his fangs.

  Don’t be afraid, I like it in the dark. No one can see you, but you can see them. But first you have to open your eyes. See? Like this. And the tree reached down and touched him.

  And suddenly he was back in the mountains, his paws sunk deep in a drift of snow as he stood upon the edge of a great precipice. Before him the Skirling Pass opened up into airy emptiness, and a long vee-shaped valley lay spread beneath him like a quilt, awash in all the colors of an autumn afternoon.

  A vast blue-white wall plugged one end of the vale, squeezing between the mountains as if it had shouldered them aside, and for a moment he thought he had dreamed himself back to Castle Black. Then he realized he was looking at a river of ice several thousand feet high. Under that glittering cold cliff was a great lake, its deep cobalt waters reflecting the snowcapped peaks that ringed it. There were men down in the valley, he saw now; many men, thousands, a huge host....<snip>

 

 

A few details to point out - Bran called the white wolf "Jon", and the white wolf recognized the face on the weirwood as his "brother's face". Furthermore, when he sniffed the weirwood it "smelled of wolf and tree and boy". This is important, because GRRM is setting up the precedence of wargs being a combo of man and beast. Bran is three things: he's a boy, he's a wolf, and he's a tree, therefore Jon is both man and wolf. This is clarified after Bran opens Jon's third eye and he sees through Ghost's eyes. This is a HUGE detail! Because when Jon was dreaming his third eye WAS NOT OPEN until Bran opened it! Conclusion: Jon was having a wolf dream where HE was the white wolf. He wasn't inside Ghost howling for his brothers and his sister - and note, he said sister and not sisters, because Lady is dead so he cannot sense Sansa. 

This first dream is set up in such a way for us to understand that the second dream is not literal either.

We are to understand through these two dream passages that Jon is both man and direwolf - not just Jon, but all the Stark wargs. He's the white wolf in both dreams. Jon doesn't quite understand what his intuition and dreams are telling him. He's not interpreting the signals correctly, which when you think about it is similar to Melisandre's attempts to interpret what she sees in the flames. He doesn't realize that Rickon is the black brother that killed a goat, that Arya is the little sister singing to the moon, and that Bran is the one that smells of summer living on the colder side of the Wall. HE is associating these signs as the wolves, not knowing that he and his siblings are both human and direwolf.

Circling back to revisit this:

Quote

Many a night his sister’s pack gorged on the flesh of sheep and cows and horses, the prey of men, and sometimes even on the flesh of man himself.

It's not as simple as replacing sheep, cows, horses, and men with the single word "people". You have to consider Braavos - who the founders were, and where they came from. The people were previously slaves of the dragonlords of Valyria. The sheep, cows, and horses represent the many tribes of people that encompass these slaves, because slaves come from many different nations. In effect, they all were the "prey" of men - slaves are the prey of dragonlords. When these freed slaves come to the House of Black and White willingly to die, the Faceless Men have much prey to gorge upon. You can also hire a Faceless Man to kill someone, but it'll cost you. The price must be high enough that it is a true sacrifice. And the willingness to be a paid assassin is how the Faceless Men gorge on the flesh of other humans.

If you and JNR still do not understand the evidence that I have laid out for you here in this post, then we should just agree to disagree, and move on. 

 

 

[PrettyPig]

9 hours ago, St Daga said:

My recent search of barrows and cairns and cists lead me all over the British Isles and several of my findings in Heresy 211 lead me to Dartmoor in Devon. This area of moorland reminded me of reading The Hound of the Baskerville's probably twenty years ago. So, I decided to refresh my memory and reread, mostly looking for references to the "hellhound" that was said to be a curse upon the Baskerville family. 

This is good stuff...and totally in line with the ever- growing pile of subtle hints that our very old First Men came from a society of underground dwellers/moon-night-shadow-darkness worshippers.   

I want to come back to Cerberus and the idea of hellhounds guarding the entrance to the Underworld—also returning to the discussion of the TOJ and the idea of sacrificial transformation.  Cerberus stands guard at the far end of the River Styx , but of course those entering the land of the dead must deal with the near end first...and that has a nifty nod in the story too.   Will post from work later.

[Brad Stark]

I've assumed hellhounds are direwolves, but I'm this case, it was two Starks fighting each other.  We don't have enough of a story to do much with. 

But I am sure a writer like GRRM would be familiar with the most famous Sherlock homes story. 

[PrettyPig]

5 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

I've assumed hellhounds are direwolves, but I'm this case, it was two Starks fighting each other.

Hmmm...  and where do we hear of two Stark hellhounds fighting each other in the North/at the Wall??

1).   The Night King, a brother to the (Stark) man who brought him down.

2). Bael the Bard, slain by his own son, the Stark in Winterfell.  (This works if you believe the hints that the Bael take is a story of Stark incest.)

[Janneyc1]

17 hours ago, Tucu said:

Or maybe the Dead Men of Dunharrow, ready to fulfill an old oath. They are also known as the Shadow Host or simply the Shadows

Didn't Martin make an SSM about something that The Shadow knows? I think it was in connection to RLJ. If so,it could mean you are on the right track. 

[Tucu]

10 hours ago, St Daga said:

My recent search of barrows and cairns and cists lead me all over the British Isles and several of my findings in Heresy 211 lead me to Dartmoor in Devon. This area of moorland reminded me of reading The Hound of the Baskerville's probably twenty years ago. So, I decided to refresh my memory and reread, mostly looking for references to the "hellhound" that was said to be a curse upon the Baskerville family.

I just found out that there is a Winter Hill (like Winterfell) near Bolton in NW England with two bronze age burial mounds and bronze age cairn. Curiously its parent peak is the nearby Hail Storm Hill and is part of the West Pennine Moors (moorland).