Heresy 212 The Wolves

[Tucu]

10 minutes ago, Janneyc1 said:

hmm, Whelp the wall isn't rectangular then. Any ideas on how they got that much ice? I've heard tell of someone freezing the Hammer of the Waters, but I think the directions don't line up. 

My favourite is: you gather all the WW in Westeros and you store them there (like a Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty). The second one is a magical dam that accumulates ice over millenia from Land of Always Winter winds.

[Janneyc1]

1 minute ago, Tucu said:

My favourite is: you gather all the WW in Westeros and you store them there? The second one is a magical dam that accumulates ice over millenia from Land of Always Winter winds.

A prison for the WW? I could maybe see that. though in my opinion, I think that the WW prison would be Winterfell. There is something in the crypts and it is more than just Jon's parentage. Earlier, we mentioned that there was a time that Hodor was afraid of the crypts and refused to enter. This was in connection with the 3-eyed raven. Personally, I think the 3ER is up to no good and did something in the crypts that somehow Hodor felt. The 3ER reached out to Bran in his dreams, do you think it could do the same for Jon?

[Tucu]

7 minutes ago, Janneyc1 said:

A prison for the WW? I could maybe see that. though in my opinion, I think that the WW prison would be Winterfell. There is something in the crypts and it is more than just Jon's parentage. Earlier, we mentioned that there was a time that Hodor was afraid of the crypts and refused to enter. This was in connection with the 3-eyed raven. Personally, I think the 3ER is up to no good and did something in the crypts that somehow Hodor felt. The 3ER reached out to Bran in his dreams, do you think it could do the same for Jon?

A mix of prision, weapon storage and demilitarized zone. I can imagine a case where many groups were abusing the WWs/wights during the Long Night until a peace treaty was established that divided the land and deactivated the weapons.

Edit: to expand a bit more on this. We can look at the Korean Demilitarized Zone. You hace a Joint Security Area were peace talks can take place  and "peace villages" on each side

[PrettyPig]

33 minutes ago, St Daga said:

have wondered about blood myself. I just always assumed what he tasted could be his own blood, if that makes any sense. I have read that passage multiple times, looking at it like perhaps Hodor bonked Bran's head harder than Bran reports, and it's Bran's own blood that dripped onto him. Head injuries are funny, and a very small cut can bleed quite a bit.

I don't think it's Bran's blood....my thought is that the Black Gate itself, being part of the Wall, which according to Ygritte is made of blood, is the source of the salt.

Ygritte of course is more or less referencing the number of lives taken by/given to the Wall in generic terms, but we still have the horror history of the Nightfort, the spells woven into the Wall, the legend of it being raised via magic by Bran the Builder, etc...and that makes me think that it's very possible that literal blood has gone into the Wall over the millennia.   It has been absorbing blood since the Age of Heroes to the point that it has become nearly a living thing, something that I believe Jon has alluded to in his description of it from time to time - breathing, weeping, what have you.   Anthropomorphized, sure, but there may be more truth to it than realized.  

I had more thoughts on this but they just totally flew out of my mind....will come back if I remember!

[Janneyc1]

8 minutes ago, Tucu said:

A mix of prision, weapon storage and demilitarized zone. I can imagine a case where many groups were abusing the WWs/wights during the Long Night until a peace treaty was established that divided the land and deactivated the weapons.

Edit: to expand a bit more on this. We can look at the Korean Demilitarized Zone. You hace a Joint Security Area were peace talks can take place  and "peace villages" on each side

I could see that being the case. Though if it were the case, shouldn't we have seen some aggression more than just recently? From either side of the zone?

[St Daga]

Grrrr! I just lost a reply, but I am going to try again! 

43 minutes ago, Janneyc1 said:

To veer slightly in a different direction, I think that whoever grabbed Lyanna did so with Brandon near by. We are told by Lady Dustin that he was like a centaur. Whoever grabbed her would have had to be a great horseman and would need to be able to get away. 

I have speculated on this for years. Have also argued that perhaps Domeric Bolton was older than we think, and was a contemporary of Lyanna Stark's.  Roose tell us this:

Quote

 

"For the moment. I had another, once. Domeric. A quiet boy, but most accomplished. He served four years as Lady Dustin's page, and three in the Vale as a squire to Lord Redfort. He played the high harp, read histories, and rode like the wind. Horses … the boy was mad for horses, Lady Dustin will tell you. Not even Lord Rickard's daughter could outrace him, and that one was half a horse herself. Redfort said he showed great promise in the lists. A great jouster must be a great horseman first." ADWD-Reek III

 

So, this implies to me that Domeric actively could outrace Lyanna Stark. The only other Lord Rickard we have in the story in Rickard Karstark, and that would mean that Roose was talking about Alys (which I guess could be possible). The only way that Domeric and Lyanna could race each other is if they lived in the same time frame, and were old enough to compete with one another.

When we get Arya escaping from the brotherhood and Harwin chasing her down, it seems to indicate that only a northman might be able to chase a Stark maiden down. Harwin didn't catch Arya with any malicious intent, but he did her no favor's either. Are we seeing an echo of what happened with Lyanna and another northman who could outrace her?

I have speculated that Domeric was around the age of Ned and Lyanna. We don't know how old Roose is, and I think he could be closer to Lord Rickards age than he was to Ned's age. And we know he has been married twice before Fat Walda, but when did those marriages take place. There is no hint as to how old Bethany Ryswell was, or when she died. I think she was Roose's second wife.

It's possible that Roose's statement is simply bragging that his son was a better rider than Lyanna could have been. but Brandon was said to be a good rider too, so if you are comparing hypothetical situations, it makes more sense to compare Domeric and Brandon than Domeric and Lyanna.

But the text also states that Domeric died only two years or so before the story starts. How can Domeric have died two years ago, but raced against Lyanna Stark, who has been dead 15 or so years? I can't tell if it's a mistake in in the text, or a clue?

Quote

"Few do," she replied. "He lived with his mother until two years past, when young Domeric died and left Bolton without an heir. That was when he brought his bastard to the Dreadfort. The boy is a sly creature by all accounts, and he has a servant who is almost as cruel as he is. Reek, they call the man. It's said he never bathes. They hunt together, the Bastard and this Reek, and not for deer. I've heard tales, things I can scarce believe, even of a Bolton. And now that my lord husband and my sweet son have gone to the gods, the Bastard looks at my lands hungrily." ACOK-Bran II

One thing that stands out to me in Donella Hornwood's statement about Domeric, is that she refers to him as "young Domeric". Most people assume this means that Domeric was a young man, when he died two years ago, but I think it could mean that he was "young" in her mind. She is not a young woman, so this could be an error in perception.

The other option that I see could be that there was a "old Domeric" and a "young Domeric". Could Roose have had two son's named Domeric? It's odd, but perhaps Domeric is a Bolton name in the way that Brandon is a Stark name? Perhaps Roose had reused this name for his sons? If he and Fat Walda name their son Domeric, I am sold on this idea, but I don't know if that child will ever be born. Roose does say that Domeric is buried in the Dreadfort with his brothers, but implies those brothers all died in their cradles. 

It all just seems like a contradiction in the text. Perhaps it's just a mistake by the author. But I find it suspicious.

[Tucu]

3 minutes ago, Janneyc1 said:

I could see that being the case. Though if it were the case, shouldn't we have seen some aggression more than just recently? From either side of the zone?

I think this is were intentionally forgetting has its role. Hoster Blackwood tells us this when discussing the long confrontation between Blackwoods and Brackens:

Quote

So long as men remember the wrongs done to their forebears, no peace will ever last.

So, how to do achieve a long peace? You alter history, invent a legendary enemy and attribute all the evil deeds to them.

[Janneyc1]

5 minutes ago, St Daga said:

So, this implies to me that Domeric actively could outrace Lyanna Stark. The only other Lord Rickard we have in the story in Rickard Karstark, and that would mean that Roose was talking about Alys (which I guess could be possible). The only way that Domeric and Lyanna could race each other is if they lived in the same time frame, and were old enough to compete with one another.

We are thinking along the same lines. It could be that They raced with each other in 288 or so and then he lived another 8 years until just before the start of the series. 

[Janneyc1]

6 minutes ago, Tucu said:

So, how to do achieve a long peace? You alter history, invent a legendary enemy and attribute all the evil deeds to them.

Good point. that would explain a lot of the myths about the Others. 

[St Daga]

3 minutes ago, Janneyc1 said:

12 minutes ago, St Daga said:

So, this implies to me that Domeric actively could outrace Lyanna Stark. The only other Lord Rickard we have in the story in Rickard Karstark, and that would mean that Roose was talking about Alys (which I guess could be possible). The only way that Domeric and Lyanna could race each other is if they lived in the same time frame, and were old enough to compete with one another.

We are thinking along the same lines. It could be that They raced with each other in 288 or so and then he lived another 8 years until just before the start of the series. 

That is one of the parts of the timeline that don't seem to jive. The rebellion ended in 283, and most accounts put Lyanna's death around this time. Although I have speculated that Lyanna did live much longer than most people think, but I have not one bit of proof for that. If she was racing Domeric in 288, then her death clearly wasn't aligned with the timeline of the rebellion. I have chased this idea of Domeric and Lyanna racing around in my head for years, with no satisfactory answer. 

[St Daga]

23 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

have wondered about blood myself. I just always assumed what he tasted could be his own blood, if that makes any sense. I have read that passage multiple times, looking at it like perhaps Hodor bonked Bran's head harder than Bran reports, and it's Bran's own blood that dripped onto him. Head injuries are funny, and a very small cut can bleed quite a bit.

I don't think it's Bran's blood....my thought is that the Black Gate itself, being part of the Wall, which according to Ygritte is made of blood, is the source of the salt.

Ygritte of course is more or less referencing the number of lives taken by/given to the Wall in generic terms, but we still have the horror history of the Nightfort, the spells woven into the Wall, the legend of it being raised via magic by Bran the Builder, etc...and that makes me think that it's very possible that literal blood has gone into the Wall over the millennia.   It has been absorbing blood since the Age of Heroes to the point that it has become nearly a living thing, something that I believe Jon has alluded to in his description of it from time to time - breathing, weeping, what have you.   Anthropomorphized, sure, but there may be more truth to it than realized.  

I had more thoughts on this but they just totally flew out of my mind....will come back if I remember!

Also, if the wall tasted like blood, Bran would probably just say so. But GRRM likes to be ambiguous and using salt as a substitute for something else would not be unusual for him. The thing that is odd, is that the gate could be dripping (ice/water/blood/saliva/etc) whether Bran's head brushed it or not, so why the added detail about Hodor not ducking enough and Bran's head making contact with the top of the gate? How many times in the story does Hodor smack Bran's head into door jams? In Game it caused Bran pain, but perhaps by Storm, Bran is numb to these repeated incidents?

As to blood being in the wall, we do have the 79 sentinels buried in the wall, and that could be right above the Black Gate for all we know. Although I would think they are pretty preserved, or like dried up ice mummies, and not having been absorbed into the ice. Perhaps the easiest answer is that the wall is made of iceberg's. But what keeps them from melting? It can't be that cold at the wall that they are sustained indefinitely. Magic is the easy answer, but that is not entirely satisfying to me. And GRRM is so scifi that I think he would want some kind of explanation that is more concrete than magic. I could be very wrong about that.

[Melifeather]

7 hours ago, St Daga said:

Gold is typically mined from quartz. Cyrstals of differing color and clarity can be made from quartz and quartz is said to be stronger than granite, because it is less porous than granite. This is from countertop research and I have no idea how that would work for building a castle out of quartz. Some gemstones are made of quartz, such as amethyst and citrine.

The Iron Born seem pretty uncomfortable in Winterfell, mostly because of it's distance from the sea. Theon is the only one who wants the place, and that would make sense, because he was both raised there and wants to be a Stark. Water is life blood for many cultures, not just the Iron Born.

I understand the Brandon the Builder myths are hard to believe, but the Stark's seem to connect to him and he is connected to the building of Winterfell. I would suppose the original structure of Winterfell is underground, and it was only later that the upper structure and warm walled castle was built. After the Long Night! One thing I don't think we get information on is any water running through the crypts. How does the water get pumped up into the castle walls? It does remind me of the water that might feed the wall. It seems like it was salt water that dripped on Bran's head when going through the Black Gate. Salt water seems to connect to the Iron Born, but the water in Winterfell's walls or pools is never noted to be salty, at least not that I think.

Another thing about Winterfell's water is that it is hot water, warmed by geothermal activity, which hints at volcano's under the ground. That might connect them more to Valyria than to the Iron Born. Or Asshai! That is where I suspect the Stark's descend from. 

Still, your theory has some merit and I think thinking outside the box is good. That is how we push to discover more of what GRRM might intend in this story. 

 

But isn’t Winterfell said to be 10,000 years old, whereas the Long Night occurred 8,000 years ago?

 

54 minutes ago, Janneyc1 said:

Do we know how thick the Wall actually is?I did a quick calculation and if it is a half-mile thick, there would be almost 3 trillion cubic feet of ice inside the wall, assuming rectangular shape. This also begs the question: where did they get the ice to make this thing. I think we can find the answer in the Lands of always Winter. 

It’s always interesting to contemplate the size of the Wall and how such a thing was raised. I don’t think it happened instantly, but it did have a magical origin. Certain creatures cannot pass, like Coldhands, white walkers, and wights, so there’s something there that doesn’t require a physical barrier to exist. If this magical barrier was created to contain beings created with ice magic, then it seems logical that cold and ice would “stop” at the warded demarcation line, which could have a build up effect of ice and snow. Plus we know each Lord Commander added to the height. Its basically a dam made of ice.

 

51 minutes ago, St Daga said:

I have wondered about blood myself. I just always assumed what he tasted could be his own blood, if that makes any sense. I have read that passage multiple times, looking at it like perhaps Hodor bonked Bran's head harder than Bran reports, and it's Bran's own blood that dripped onto him. Head injuries are funny, and a very small cut can bleed quite a bit.

I have just never come across anyone else who thinks it's blood, but obviously I have been looking in the wrong spot. If the Brandon Stark's are connected to the Nightfort, then does it make this Bran's blood more important to the gate? Or did the gate reach out to get some of Bran's blood? Summer seems entirely unconcerned about passing through this gate, but then Summer seems to like blood, too!

 

If Bran is a type of Dr Strange character, or that other Marvel character Pretty Pig mentioned that gets reincarnated every generation, then the man getting his throat slit was Brandon 1.0.

 

15 minutes ago, Janneyc1 said:

A prison for the WW? I could maybe see that. though in my opinion, I think that the WW prison would be Winterfell. There is something in the crypts and it is more than just Jon's parentage. Earlier, we mentioned that there was a time that Hodor was afraid of the crypts and refused to enter. This was in connection with the 3-eyed raven. Personally, I think the 3ER is up to no good and did something in the crypts that somehow Hodor felt. The 3ER reached out to Bran in his dreams, do you think it could do the same for Jon?

Going along with my suspicions that the Starks aren’t the originals at Winterfell - it might explain why the lower levels are barred (warded) with iron bars.

[JNR]

22 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

He doesn't question??? The text specifically states that he "wondered". "Wondered" in no sense does this word mean "believes".

What the wolfdreams show is the wolves.  

Jon doesn't question what the wolfdreams show.  That's why he believes Shaggydog still lives, even though he has no other evidence Shaggydog is alive.  The dream is enough to convince him.

What the wolfdreams never show is Rickon or Bran.  That's exactly why Jon has to wonder if Rickon and Bran "live on in their wolves," somehow, despite being -- as he puts it rather bluntly -- "dead."

22 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

There is no way that this can be explained literally, because at the time of this dream only four direwolves exist, and the dream refers to five human-direwolves.

What Ghost thinks is that four of the original six direwolf cubs remain, and of those four, he can't sense one.  (Why?  Because that one is beyond the Wall.)

If Ghost thought five of the original six direwolf cubs remained, the text would say five remain.  It doesn't say that.

22 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

If Jon, as the white wolf, sensed his brother who smells of summer on the north side of the Wall where it's colder, then he obviously CAN SENSE through the Wall.

Well, seriously, Feather.  Think about what you're saying.

Your position is that Jon knows Bran is alive, right?  And he's constantly known, because he can psychically sense Bran, that Bran has been alive since ACOK.  And he also knows Bran is beyond the Wall. 

Ergo Jon, the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, always knew for months that Bran was constantly at risk of being killed north of the Wall.

And despite knowing all that... Jon never, ever did a single thing to help Bran in any way.  Not once, ever.

You're saying Jon just couldn't be bothered to send anyone to rescue Bran or at minimum, feed Bran.  Never, in all the months Bran was moving from the Wall to Bloodraven's cave... freezing, starving, threatened by wights and potentially Popsicles.  Jon thought "Eh, not worth it.  Fuck Bran."

Does that really seem like Jon to you?  Jon, who is so worried about wildlings at Hardhome... people he never even met... that he sends ships to rescue them?  Seriously now.

As to how Ghost knows Summer is north of the Wall, despite not being able to sense Summer, that is really quite simple. 

Recall that in ASOS, Ghost is north of the Wall -- left there by Jon -- at the same time Bran and his party are north of the Wall.  That is how and when Ghost learns Summer has gone beyond the Wall; they're on the same side, so Ghost can sense Summer then.

Some time later, near the end of ASOS, Jon finds Ghost again and brings him south of the Wall. 

At this point, because the Wall is between them, Ghost loses his sense of Summer...  but  he does still remember that Summer is located north of the Wall. 

If Summer ever moves south of the Wall, and Ghost is there too, Ghost is almost certainly going to know it.  But that has never happened.

[Melifeather]

45 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Grrrr! I just lost a reply, but I am going to try again! 

I have speculated on this for years. Have also argued that perhaps Domeric Bolton was older than we think, and was a contemporary of Lyanna Stark's.  Roose tell us this:

So, this implies to me that Domeric actively could outrace Lyanna Stark. The only other Lord Rickard we have in the story in Rickard Karstark, and that would mean that Roose was talking about Alys (which I guess could be possible). The only way that Domeric and Lyanna could race each other is if they lived in the same time frame, and were old enough to compete with one another.

When we get Arya escaping from the brotherhood and Harwin chasing her down, it seems to indicate that only a northman might be able to chase a Stark maiden down. Harwin didn't catch Arya with any malicious intent, but he did her no favor's either. Are we seeing an echo of what happened with Lyanna and another northman who could outrace her?

I have speculated that Domeric was around the age of Ned and Lyanna. We don't know how old Roose is, and I think he could be closer to Lord Rickards age than he was to Ned's age. And we know he has been married twice before Fat Walda, but when did those marriages take place. There is no hint as to how old Bethany Ryswell was, or when she died. I think she was Roose's second wife.

It's possible that Roose's statement is simply bragging that his son was a better rider than Lyanna could have been. but Brandon was said to be a good rider too, so if you are comparing hypothetical situations, it makes more sense to compare Domeric and Brandon than Domeric and Lyanna.

But the text also states that Domeric died only two years or so before the story starts. How can Domeric have died two years ago, but raced against Lyanna Stark, who has been dead 15 or so years? I can't tell if it's a mistake in in the text, or a clue?

One thing that stands out to me in Donella Hornwood's statement about Domeric, is that she refers to him as "young Domeric". Most people assume this means that Domeric was a young man, when he died two years ago, but I think it could mean that he was "young" in her mind. She is not a young woman, so this could be an error in perception.

The other option that I see could be that there was a "old Domeric" and a "young Domeric". Could Roose have had two son's named Domeric? It's odd, but perhaps Domeric is a Bolton name in the way that Brandon is a Stark name? Perhaps Roose had reused this name for his sons? If he and Fat Walda name their son Domeric, I am sold on this idea, but I don't know if that child will ever be born. Roose does say that Domeric is buried in the Dreadfort with his brothers, but implies those brothers all died in their cradles. 

It all just seems like a contradiction in the text. Perhaps it's just a mistake by the author. But I find it suspicious.

Brandon was fostered at Barrowton with Lord Dustin, which apparently is nearby where Barbrey Ryswell (Lady Dustin) lived. It seems natural that Lyanna could have ridden to Barrowton to visit Brandon, and come into contact with Domeric Bolton there.

43 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I think this is were intentionally forgetting has its role. Hoster Blackwood tells us this when discussing the long confrontation between Blackwoods and Brackens:

So, how to do achieve a long peace? You alter history, invent a legendary enemy and attribute all the evil deeds to them.

Bingo. Exactomundo. The enemy was “otherized” which makes it easier to torture, imprison, and kill them.

[St Daga]

6 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

But isn’t Winterfell said to be 10,000 years old, whereas the Long Night occurred 8,000 years ago?

Well, according to Catelyn, (who isn't very trustworthy as she also tells us that all the weirwoods of the south have been cut down, oops, except for the weirwood heart tree that exists in Riverrun, her childhood home, oh, and all the others in the south) the forest of the godswood, or the three acres that make up the godswood has been untouched for 10,000 years and that the castle was built up around it. 

The Stark line is said to be 8,000 years old, also the wall but the text never claims how old Winterfell is. I do think the World Book states that Brandon the Builder raised Winterfell after the long night, which is said to be 8,000 years ago. It's possible that the forest that became the godswood existed long before the castle.

 

17 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Certain creatures cannot pass, like Coldhands, white walkers, and wights, so there’s something there that doesn’t require a physical barrier to exist.

Wights have passed the wall, for instance Othor and Jafer. And somethings are hinted to be able to climb the wall, which are probably wights, as well. They seem to be a bit different than the Other's or even whatever Coldhands is. I could certainly be wrong about this.

 

22 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

It’s always interesting to contemplate the size of the Wall and how such a thing was raised. I don’t think it happened instantly, but it did have a magical origin.

I think that Jeor Mormont says that in the past, Lord Commanders used to raise the wall higher during their watch, so it makes sense the wall as we know of it now was once not nearly as big as it is a the start of our story.

 

23 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

If Bran is a type of Dr Strange character, or that other Marvel character Pretty Pig mentioned that gets reincarnated every generation, then the man getting his throat slit was Brandon 1.0.

I need to look into this Dr Strange idea more. I really have very little knowledge on this aspect of the story.

 

24 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Going along with my suspicions that the Starks aren’t the originals at Winterfell - it might explain why the lower levels are barred (warded) with iron bars.

If the lower levels of Winterfell exist from 10,000 years ago (although we have no documentation of that), while the part of the castle attributed to Brandon the Builder only goes back 8,000 years, then maybe we should look at the family in the book which claims to be 10,000 years old. The Dayne's. It seems like there is something to the idea of Dayne and Stark (Day and Dark). Perhaps the Stark's took the area of Winterfell from the Dayne's? 

Are there iron bar's in the Winterfell crypts? Asking for my own knowledge. I just thought the older/lower levels were collapsed and hard to access. 

[Melifeather]

6 minutes ago, JNR said:

What the wolfdreams show is the wolves.  

That is the literal interpretation.

7 minutes ago, JNR said:

Jon doesn't question what the wolfdreams show.  That's why he believes Shaggydog still lives, even though he has no other evidence Shaggydog is alive.  The dream is enough to convince him.

Jon and all his warg siblings were born with an ability to open a third eye and bond with a direwolf, which they have the capability of skinchanging into. But - they grew up not knowing they had these gifts, and they didn't have anyone to mentor them or explain what anything about being a warg means. Bran was lucky enough to have met Jojen and Meera, who do seem to know the capabilities of wargs and share their knowledge with Bran. As a result he's able to progress more quickly than Jon. Jon doesn't quite know what to make of wolf dreams, and it took Qhorin's encouragement to purposely warg Ghost for intel on the wilding. I think it even shocked Jon what he saw, and maybe he didn't even quite believe it was true until he was brought to the wildling camp to meet Mance. Jon's wolf dreams confirm that Rickon, Arya, and Bran are still alive, but Jon isn't educated on wargs, so he doesn't know how to interpret his dreams. He assumes he must be sensing the wolves. I think you know my position on this, but you keep circling around what I'm saying, which makes me wonder if you even read my posts long enough to let my meaning sink in.

7 minutes ago, JNR said:

What the wolfdreams never show is Rickon or Bran.  That's exactly why Jon has to wonder if Rickon and Bran "live on in their wolves," somehow, despite being -- as he puts it rather bluntly -- "dead."

I believe the wolf dreams DO show Rickon and Bran, but Jon is misinterpreting his dreams. He is being influenced by human intervention - specifically words brought to Castle Black by ravens...so it's easy to see how putting these things together have persuaded Jon that what he is sensing must be the wolves and not his brothers, because the ravens brought news that they were dead.

7 minutes ago, JNR said:

What Ghost thinks is that four of the original six direwolf cubs remain, and of those four, he can't sense one.  (Why?  Because that one is beyond the Wall.)

If Ghost thought five of the original six direwolf cubs remained, the text would say five remain.  It doesn't say that.

The word "and" means "in addition" to the four. 

Quote

Four remained … and one the white wolf could no longer sense.

Quote

 

On the other side the wind was colder still, the wolf sensed. That was where his brother was, the grey brother who smelled of summer.

 

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this.

8 minutes ago, JNR said:

23 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

If Jon, as the white wolf, sensed his brother who smells of summer on the north side of the Wall where it's colder, then he obviously CAN SENSE through the Wall.

Well, seriously, Feather.  Think about what you're saying.

I have thought a great deal about what I'm saying. Have you?

8 minutes ago, JNR said:

Your position is that Jon knows Bran is alive, right?  And he's constantly known, because he can psychically sense Bran, that Bran has been alive since ACOK.  And he also knows Bran is beyond the Wall. 

Ergo Jon, the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, always knew for months that Bran was constantly at risk of being killed north of the Wall.

And despite knowing all that... Jon never, ever did a single thing to help Bran in any way.  Not once, ever.

My position is that Jon doesn't trust his own instincts, nor does he trust his dreams. He also misinterprets his dreams, because he's influenced by outside human intervention. 

[St Daga]

18 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Brandon was fostered at Barrowton with Lord Dustin, which apparently is nearby where Barbrey Ryswell (Lady Dustin) lived. It seems natural that Lyanna could have ridden to Barrowton to visit Brandon, and come into contact with Domeric Bolton there.

Most timeline's have Domeric being born between 279 and 281. The rebellion took place from 282-283, which according to that, would make Domeric Bolton 3 or 4 during the rebellion, far to young to be riding around chasing Lyanna Stark. Unless Domeric is much older than most people think. I think he is older, but the text is fairly contradictory about his age. I am currently leaning toward their being an Older Domeric and a Younger Domeric. But Roose doesn't talk about "Domeric" as if he had two sons by the same name. It just seems odd to me, but I might be making a big deal over nothing. Sometimes I do that! 

[Melifeather]

3 minutes ago, St Daga said:

The Stark line is said to be 8,000 years old, also the wall but the text never claims how old Winterfell is. I do think the World Book states that Brandon the Builder raised Winterfell after the long night, which is said to be 8,000 years ago. It's possible that the forest that became the godswood existed long before the castle.

In theory, if there was a family that raised Winterfell prior to the Starks, and the first Brandon - Brandon the Builder - took position of it, it could be said that he "built" it. He took it and made it his own. 

If we go back to the story of the Last Hero it ends with the Others being on his tail, because they smelled his "hot blood". Then his dog (wolf?) dies and his sword breaks. Who else's sword broke? Ser Waymar Royce. The white walkers killed Waymar, and then he rose as a wight. So what if the Last Hero had actually died too? Maybe when it's said the Children helped him, it means that they resurrected him Beric Dondarrion style, or maybe even Coldhand style? Is that how he was able to defeat the Others? Because he couldn't be killed?

4 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Wights have passed the wall, for instance Othor and Jafer. And somethings are hinted to be able to climb the wall, which are probably wights, as well. They seem to be a bit different than the Other's or even whatever Coldhands is. I could certainly be wrong about this.

Othor and Jafer didn't pass on their own two feet. They were dragged across. Coldhands told Sam he could not pass.

5 minutes ago, St Daga said:

If the lower levels of Winterfell exist from 10,000 years ago (although we have no documentation of that), while the part of the castle attributed to Brandon the Builder only goes back 8,000 years, then maybe we should look at the family in the book which claims to be 10,000 years old. The Dayne's. It seems like there is something to the idea of Dayne and Stark (Day and Dark). Perhaps the Stark's took the area of Winterfell from the Dayne's? 

Are there iron bar's in the Winterfell crypts? Asking for my own knowledge. I just thought the older/lower levels were collapsed and hard to access. 

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...Robert was breathing heavily by the time they reached the bottom of the stairs, his face red in the lantern light as they stepped out into the darkness of the crypt.

  “Your Grace,” Ned said respectfully. He swept the lantern in a wide semicircle. Shadows moved and lurched. Flickering light touched the stones underfoot and brushed against a long procession of granite pillars that marched ahead, two by two, into the dark. Between the pillars, the dead sat on their stone thrones against the walls, backs against the sepulchres that contained their mortal remains.

 

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By ancient custom an iron longsword had been laid across the lap of each who had been Lord of Winterfell, to keep the vengeful spirits in their crypts.

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The door to the crypts was made of ironwood. It was old and heavy, and lay at a slant to the ground. Only one person could approach it at a time.

 

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The vault was cavernous, longer than Winterfell itself, and Jon had told him once that there were other levels underneath, vaults even deeper and darker where the older kings were buried.

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“Somewhere beneath us are the crypts where the old Stark kings sit in darkness. My men have not been able to find the way down into them. They have been through all the undercrofts and cellars, even the dungeons, but …”

 

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  “The crypts cannot be accessed from the dungeons, my lady.” “Can you show me the way down?” “There’s nothing down there but—”

  “— dead Starks? Aye. And all my favorite Starks are dead, as it happens. Do you know the way or not?”

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“There are lower levels. Older. The lowest level is partly collapsed, I hear. I have never been down there.” He pushed the door open and led them out into a long vaulted tunnel, where mighty granite pillars marched two by two into blackness.

 

 

I had thought I remembered a passage where it was said the collapsed levels had an iron gate across the entrance, but I cannot find right now.

[PrettyPig]

38 minutes ago, St Daga said:

The Stark line is said to be 8,000 years old, also the wall but the text never claims how old Winterfell is. I do think the World Book states that Brandon the Builder raised Winterfell after the long night, which is said to be 8,000 years ago. It's possible that the forest that became the godswood existed long before the castle.

The STARK line is 8000 years old....I wonder what they were/who inhabited the area of Winterfell before they became Starks?

[Melifeather]

33 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Most timeline's have Domeric being born between 279 and 281. The rebellion took place from 282-283, which according to that, would make Domeric Bolton 3 or 4 during the rebellion, far to young to be riding around chasing Lyanna Stark. Unless Domeric is much older than most people think. I think he is older, but the text is fairly contradictory about his age. I am currently leaning toward their being an Older Domeric and a Younger Domeric. But Roose doesn't talk about "Domeric" as if he had two sons by the same name. It just seems odd to me, but I might be making a big deal over nothing. Sometimes I do that! 

Ah, just so. Lyanna was 12 when Domeric was born if the wiki has both of their birth years correct.