Heresy 212 The Wolves

[St Daga]

32 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Maybe it is a bit odd, but it is not the only time that Bolton used "Lord Rickard" as a direct reference to Lord Karstark:

Roose also refers to Lord Rickard Stark as Lord Rickard.

Quote

"A year later this same wench had the impudence to turn up at the Dreadfort with a squalling, red-faced monster that she claimed was my own get. I should've had the mother whipped and thrown her child down a well … but the babe did have my eyes. She told me that when her dead husband's brother saw those eyes, he beat her bloody and drove her from the mill. That annoyed me, so I gave her the mill and had the brother's tongue cut out, to make certain he did not go running to Winterfell with tales that might disturb Lord Rickard. Each year I sent the woman some piglets and chickens and a bag of stars, on the understanding that she was never to tell the boy who had fathered him. A peaceful land, a quiet people, that has always been my rule." ADWD-Reek III

At least I assume (and I know that is dangerous) that Roose would only worry about this information getting back to his direct liege lord at Winterfell, Rickard Stark.

 

[St Daga]

27 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

What is the significance of Domeric's age?  We have some evidence he's as much as 10 years older than some readers think.  But he's still a minor character dead before the story started who only exists to show what kind of person Ramsey is. 

His death might be more about showing what kind of person Roose is since Ramsay doesn't seem like the type of person to kill with poison. I think his age only matters in comparison to Lyanna. I think it's possible that when Lyanna was kidnapped, it was Domeric that helped chase her down, which could show that the Bolton's have been conniving against the Stark's far longer than it seems at first. After all, who were the six companions that Rhaegar rode off with that might tie to Lyanna's kidnapping. But that is my personal tinfoil, and I don't expect anyone to buy it.  

[Tucu]

5 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Roose also refers to Lord Rickard Stark as Lord Rickard.

At least I assume (and I know that is dangerous) that Roose would only worry about this information getting back to his direct liege lord at Winterfell, Rickard Stark.

 

Yes, but if we mix the information that Domeric was page to Lady Dustin for 4 years we get that we was very young at the time of Robert's rebellion. Willam and Barbrey were only married for half a year by the start of the war.

 

 

[St Daga]

19 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

46 minutes ago, St Daga said:

You make a good point. This does make some sense of the situation, since it's seems like they were wighted before they were carried across. Like vampires having to be invited into private homes but have the capability of strolling into a public establishment sans invitation! The magic of the wall might be subverted by the invite. Which might be similar to how Melisandre is finally able to enter Storms End. She was invited by Stannis, who now held the castle after Ser Cortney's death. 

Davos dutifully did the deed, because Stannis wanted her smuggled in. 

Well, Davos brought Mel under Storms End to birth her shadow baby but  he didn't bring her inside the warded walls, and that seems different than when she entered the castle at a later time. But, it might be nothing, and perhaps I should not look like her as a vampire that needs to be invited in.

[St Daga]

20 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

There is tinfoily speculation for every single character in the story carrying off Lyanna.  Any specific reason to suspect Domeric instead of Quaith or Marwyn? 

Because if Domeric could out ride Lyanna, then it gives him the means of capturing her. We see hints of this with Arya when she almost escapes the brotherhood but Harwin, another man of the north, is able to ride her down and return her to her captors. I think there are some echos in play and this might be one between Arya and Lyanna. We are told Domeric was a very good rider, and there has to be some reason for that. Otherwise it's just unneeded information about Domeric. We also hear that Domeric was a pretty good jouster, another sign of being a good rider. It's tinfoil with some speculation, and I have no real proof, just a few questions r/t odd text hints.

[St Daga]

10 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Yes, but if we mix the information that Domeric was page to Lady Dustin for 4 years we get that we was very young at the time of Robert's rebellion. Willam and Barbrey were only married for half a year by the start of the war.

Yes, this information about serving as Barbrey's page does throw a wrench in my timeline. Four years with Barbrey, and three years in the Vale with the Redfort's, I believe. Then he has been dead around two years or so, according to Lady Hornwood, when she attends the Harvest Feast at Winterfell. But there is no doubt there are some odd things about the information that we get about Domeric. I guess the easiest, but least satisfying answer for me, is that GRRM made a mistake in the text that relates to Domeric's age. 

[Melifeather]

19 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Well, Davos brought Mel under Storms End to birth her shadow baby but  he didn't bring her inside the warded walls, and that seems different than when she entered the castle at a later time. But, it might be nothing, and perhaps I should not look like her as a vampire that needs to be invited in.

Seems like a technicality to say that underneath Storm's End isn't the same as being inside. 

[Tucu]

12 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Yes, this information about serving as Barbrey's page does throw a wrench in my timeline. Four years with Barbrey, and three years in the Vale with the Redfort's, I believe. Then he has been dead around two years or so, according to Lady Hornwood, when she attends the Harvest Feast at Winterfell. But there is no doubt there are some odd things about the information that we get about Domeric. I guess the easiest, but least satisfying answer for me, is that GRRM made a mistake in the text that relates to Domeric's age. 

I think that the angle GRRM is playing with Domeric is that Roose killed him and blames Ramsay.

Domeric officially died of "a sickness of the bowels" but Roose says it was poison. This matches the Tears of Lys. Varys describes this poison as

Quote

The tears of Lys, they call it. A rare and costly thing, clear and sweet as water, and it leaves no trace

This is a tool of a lord or his maester, not of a savage bastard.

[Matthew.]

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

While i appreciate the grammar lesson on the use of the word "and..."

The post I was responding to, from you, literally contained what you intended to be a grammar lesson on the usage of the word "and;" my response only proceeds from the contents of your post, and clarifies the way those of us that disagree with you are interpreting that passage. 

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

You don't have to agree with me, but obviously my explanations seem to bother you a great deal. This forum is supposed to be fun, but it's not fun to be talked down to.

On the contrary, I've tried several times to meet your explanation halfway, to say that I see the potential for a double meaning in these passages possibly relating to (or foreshadowing) things regarding the Starks, and possibly revealing a deeper potential to Jon's magic, while also defending the idea that they have something interesting to say about Ghost and the direwolves, and their own magical potential.

Your response has been to express no interest in being met halfway, to insist upon on an either/or interpretation, and to talk down to people who interpret the "four remain/one who can't be felt" portion a particular way--while hypocritically bemoaning being talked down to.

Come what may, I'll not say another word about the passage in question from this point forward, but you might consider revisiting the tone of your own posts if you're going to make a call for civility.

[Melifeather]

27 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

The post I was responding to, from you, literally contained what you intended to be a grammar lesson on the usage of the word "and;" my response only proceeds from the contents of your post, and clarifies the way those of us that disagree with you are interpreting that passage. 

On the contrary, I've tried several times to meet your explanation halfway, to say that I see the potential for a double meaning in these passages possibly relating to (or foreshadowing) things regarding the Starks, and possibly revealing a deeper potential to Jon's magic, while also having something interesting to say about Ghost and the direwolves, and their own magical potential.

Your response has been to express no interest in being met halfway, to insist upon on an either/or interpretation, and to talk down to people who interpret the "four remain/one who can't be felt" portion a particular way--while hypocritically bemoaning being talked down to.

Come what may, I'll not say another word about the passage in question from this point forward, but you might consider revisiting your own posts if you're going to make a call for civility.

You’re right. I let myself get dragged down into the mire when i felt I was being baited. I responded in kind. I’d like to put this particular subject to bed as well.

[Frey family reunion]

4 hours ago, St Daga said:

It'a hard to say how long Alys and Daryn Hornwood were engaged for. All she says is before the war. It's possible that her father was shopping her around to all the great houses in the north as a bride. Still, Alys is never referred to as "half a horse", that phrasing seems to tie back to the centaurish Lyanna Stark.

Although, I don't find Alys or her story entirely trustworthy. Perhaps Karstark has been in cahoots with Bolton for a long time.

Well she did make her way to Castle Black on a horse all by her lonesome so there’s that.  And if Alys and Domeric spent some time together, it probably had to do with a dalliance between House Karstark and House Bolton, which may later pay off with Roose’s secret plan for Arnolf Karsark to betray Stannis at Winterfell.  And she definitely has “horsey” imagery attached to her:

Quote

She looked enough like Arya to give him pause, but only for a moment.  A tall, skinny, coltish girl, all legs and elbows, her brown hair was woven in a thick braid and bound about with strips of leather.  She had a long face, a pointy chin, small ears.

So she looks like Arya (Horseface) and is described as a coltish girl.  

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Well she did make her way to Castle Black on a horse all by her lonesome so there’s that.  And if Alys and Domeric spent some time together, it probably had to do with a dalliance between House Karstark and House Bolton, which may later pay off with Roose’s secret plan for Arnolf Karsark to betray Stannis at Winterfell.  And she definitely has “horsey” imagery attached to her:

So she looks like Arya (Horseface) and is described as a coltish girl.  

I’ve often wondered about the parallels between Alys and Lyanna. Of course she was running from an arranged marriage that she objected to. Melisandre saw her fleeing on horseback in her flames and told Jon she was his little sister fleeing her marriage to Ramsay.

[Melifeather]

I was rereading the exchange between Jon and Melisandre about her vision that ended up being Alys and found something else. My apologies to Matthew, because I agreed to put the dream discussion to bed, but the sentence structure is so similar with regards to the “four remained...and one”. I’m just going to post the passage as an example of GRRMs writing style and part of Jon’s speech pattern or syntax.

Earlier in the chapter before he speaks with Melisandre, Jon sends out nine men, including Alliser Thorne, to range the north. Melisandre tells Jon that three will die and return with empty eye sockets. Jon splits the nine men into three groups of three...and Jon thinks that Alliser has got it better than he deserves:

Jon watched the riders go from atop the Wall—three parties, each of three men, each carrying a pair of ravens. From on high their garrons looked no larger than ants, and Jon could not tell one ranger from another. He knew them, though. Every name was graven on his heart. Eight good men, he thought, and one … well, we shall see.

[St Daga]

7 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

8 hours ago, St Daga said:

Well, Davos brought Mel under Storms End to birth her shadow baby but  he didn't bring her inside the warded walls, and that seems different than when she entered the castle at a later time. But, it might be nothing, and perhaps I should not look like her as a vampire that needs to be invited in.

Seems like a technicality to say that underneath Storm's End isn't the same as being inside. 

Well, we don't really know what happened when Stannis entered Storm's End. We only hear rumors that he burned the godswood, and that Mel made him do it. And we don't know how Mel entered the castle. She has been his standard bearer, so it's possible she entered first. We get no account of this.  I was just playing with the idea that @Black Crow had suggested about the wights being about to pass the wall because they were carried (invited) and using it for Mel and Storm's End. But perhaps it's how Mel "carried/invited" her shadow baby into the castle?

Technicalities litter the text, and in this case Mel and Davos define the technicalities. Within versus beneath.

It's hard to say if it was Mel that Davos snuck under Storm's End, or her shadow baby. It is clear from the text that she waited until they had passed under the walls before she birthed her shadow. While they are under the castle and "within the walls" they have no physical access to the castle because of the portcullis gates are blocking the way "beneath" the castle.

 

Quote

 

"Have we passed within the walls?"

 

"Yes. Beneath. But we can go no futher. The portcullis goes all the way to the bottom. And the bars are too closely spaced for even a child to squeeze through."

 

There was no answer but a soft rustling. And then a light bloomed amidst the darkness.

 

Davos raised a hand to shield his eyes, and his breath caught in his throat. Melisandre had thrown back her cowl and shrugged out of the smothering robe. Beneath, she was naked, and huge with child. Swollen breasts hung heavy against her chest, and her belly bulged as if near to bursting. "Gods preserve us," he whispered, and heard her answering laugh, deep and throaty. Her eyes were hot coals, and the sweat that dappled her skin seemed to glow with a light of its own. Melisandre shone.

 

Panting, she squatted and spread her legs. Blood ran down her thighs, black as ink. Her cry might have been agony or ecstasy or both. And Davos saw the crown of the child's head push its way out of her. Two arms wriggled free, grasping, black fingers coiling around Melisandre's straining thighs, pushing, until the whole of the shadow slid out into the world and rose taller than Davos, tall as the tunnel, towering above the boat. He had only an instant to look at it before it was gone, twisting between the bars of the portcullis and racing across the surface of the water, but that instant was long enough.

 

He knew that shadow. As he knew the man who'd cast it. ACOK-Davis II

 

Earlier in this chapter, Mel admits that she could get close to Renly because there was no protection around him. Protection of spells?

Quote

 

Together they tied off the sail as the boat rocked beneath them. As Davos unshipped the oars and slid them into the choppy black water, he said, "Who rowed you to Renly?"

 

"There was no need," she said. "He was unprotected. But here . . . this Storm's End is an old place. There are spells woven into the stones. Dark walls that no shadow can pass—ancient, forgotten, yet still in place." ACKK-Davos II

 

So, perhaps she can cross the wall but the shadow she carries cannot. But there has to be something in the passing underneath the wards in the walls that is important. Like the tunnels underneath the castle are not included in the magic of the great stone walls above.

She seems to have no problem passing through the Wall, at least that we are told, so it all might have to do with the shadows that she carries.

 

 

 

[St Daga]

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Well she did make her way to Castle Black on a horse all by her lonesome so there’s that.  And if Alys and Domeric spent some time together, it probably had to do with a dalliance between House Karstark and House Bolton, which may later pay off with Roose’s secret plan for Arnolf Karsark to betray Stannis at Winterfell.  And she definitely has “horsey” imagery attached to her:

Quote

She looked enough like Arya to give him pause, but only for a moment.  A tall, skinny, coltish girl, all legs and elbows, her brown hair was woven in a thick braid and bound about with strips of leather.  She had a long face, a pointy chin, small ears.

So she looks like Arya (Horseface) and is described as a coltish girl.  

Alys does have some horse imagery. Long face and coltish certainly are a nod to horses. There could certainly be elements of Lyanna's story in Alys Karstark. Or the Stark and Karstark genes are still quite close in some traits and aspects.

Do we have any idea who Alys's mother is/was? The Ryswell's also have strong horse imagery around them. In their sigil, as well as being breeders of horses, as described to us when Barbrey tells Theon she picked  "a red stallion with a fiery mane, the pride of my lord father's herds" to give to her husband when he went off to war. I had previously thought that perhaps Domeric had received what seems to be a great ability as a rider from his mother Bethany Ryswell. But then, Ramsay seems to be quite a rider himself and handless that great, temperamental  stallion of his, Blood, with what seems like ease.

Ah, these red stallions. Another great mystery I want to solve. House Bracken and their red stallion sigil must be connected somehow.

And Smiler, Theon's black stallion that is set afire and has a flaming mane, which also hints at the Ryswell sigil as well.

[St Daga]

7 hours ago, Tucu said:

7 hours ago, St Daga said:

Yes, this information about serving as Barbrey's page does throw a wrench in my timeline. Four years with Barbrey, and three years in the Vale with the Redfort's, I believe. Then he has been dead around two years or so, according to Lady Hornwood, when she attends the Harvest Feast at Winterfell. But there is no doubt there are some odd things about the information that we get about Domeric. I guess the easiest, but least satisfying answer for me, is that GRRM made a mistake in the text that relates to Domeric's age. 

I think that the angle GRRM is playing with Domeric is that Roose killed him and blames Ramsay.

Domeric officially died of "a sickness of the bowels" but Roose says it was poison. This matches the Tears of Lys. Varys describes this poison as

Quote

The tears of Lys, they call it. A rare and costly thing, clear and sweet as water, and it leaves no trace

This is a tool of a lord or his maester, not of a savage bastard.

While I agree there is every reason to suspect that Roose had Domeric killed himself, the comment about Domeric "outracing" Lord Rickard's daughter is a bit odd. But GRRM does love ambiguous, so he very might have intended that the Lord Rickard in question was Karstark and not Stark, and the daughter was Alys and not Lyanna.  I do hope we get an answer some day, because I find this ambiguity frustrating!

[Janneyc1]

15 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

There is tinfoily speculation for every single character in the story carrying off Lyanna.  Any specific reason to suspect Domeric instead of Quaith or Marwyn? 

The short version was that we were looking for characters that could outrace Brandon (Ned's bro) when Lyanna was captured. Domeric crossed our sights. Probably not who we are looking for, but it was fun. 

[Melifeather]

7 hours ago, St Daga said:

Well, we don't really know what happened when Stannis entered Storm's End. We only hear rumors that he burned the godswood, and that Mel made him do it. And we don't know how Mel entered the castle. She has been his standard bearer, so it's possible she entered first. We get no account of this.  I was just playing with the idea that @Black Crow had suggested about the wights being about to pass the wall because they were carried (invited) and using it for Mel and Storm's End. But perhaps it's how Mel "carried/invited" her shadow baby into the castle?

Technicalities litter the text, and in this case Mel and Davos define the technicalities. Within versus beneath.

It's hard to say if it was Mel that Davos snuck under Storm's End, or her shadow baby. It is clear from the text that she waited until they had passed under the walls before she birthed her shadow. While they are under the castle and "within the walls" they have no physical access to the castle because of the portcullis gates are blocking the way "beneath" the castle.

 

Earlier in this chapter, Mel admits that she could get close to Renly because there was no protection around him. Protection of spells?

So, perhaps she can cross the wall but the shadow she carries cannot. But there has to be something in the passing underneath the wards in the walls that is important. Like the tunnels underneath the castle are not included in the magic of the great stone walls above.

She seems to have no problem passing through the Wall, at least that we are told, so it all might have to do with the shadows that she carries.

 

 

 

While I find it intriguing that tunneling under the Wall might bypass the wards, I cannot help but recall that the Black Gate was down a well, yet Coldhands was unable to pass. I think that Mel and Davos carried Stannis’s shadow inside a warded area, so that it could pass through the portcullis.

[Janneyc1]

7 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

While I find it intriguing that tunneling under the Wall might bypass the wards, I cannot help but recall that the Black Gate was down a well, yet Coldhands was unable to pass. I think that Mel and Davos carried Stannis’s shadow inside a warded area, so that it could pass through the portcullis.

I think the difference lies in that when she was at Storms End, she was carrying a magical ... Shadow thingy. If Martin is using the old world thoughts, which I think he is, then Mel I think could pass freely, but her shadow baby couldn't. It goes back to the traditions of Guest Rite. So the difference may also be that Jon invited them to cross the Wall. Interesting to think about. 

[St Daga]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

While I find it intriguing that tunneling under the Wall might bypass the wards, I cannot help but recall that the Black Gate was down a well, yet Coldhands was unable to pass.

I have wondered if this information is true. Coldhands tells this to Sam and Gilly, and they tell it to Bran and Co, but is Coldhands telling the truth about this? It is something about the wall itself, or about the Black Gate that Coldhands can't pass? I guess there is no reason for him to lie, but since I question most anything anymore, this is something that has bothered me.

And Summer does not like the way that Coldhands smells! Is it the smell of death and rot that hangs over Coldhands or is it something else. These wolves have some instinct that is supernatural, no doubt. Another thought, is it Summer that doesn't like the way Coldhands smells, or is it Bran?