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Heresy 212 The Wolves


Black Crow

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4 minutes ago, St Daga said:

There is the oddness of Jon not being able to draw his sword, I agree. Has the sword been tampered with so it cannot be drawn from the sheath with ease? Possible. Has Jon been drugged by the mulled wine he drinks and is effected by the potion, which makes his hands stiff and clumsy? Possible. I have heard is speculated that Wick Wittlestic'ks blade was poisoned, and that caused Jon's response time to slow and become clumsy. That is possible too.  Why does Wick act almost as if he is acting in denial of this own actions, why does Bowen have tears running down his face? The whole exchange is just very, very odd.

If the attack on Jon was preplanned, the poison or sabotage to the sword/scabbord makes some sense. If the conspirators are taking advantage and it is a spontaneous attack, then that raises other questions about how it all went down. 

Jon typically does not draw/use Longclaw all that often. Sure he used it on the Ranging North and to execute Slynt (Love that line), but since then, I think he has only had it out to clean it. Every other time we see him sparring, it is with a training blade. Drugged is possible, though I suspect an easier method of tampering with the sword is to put a bit of water in the sheath and let the Wall/Cold do the rest. Depending on how long ago the ice was set into the blade, The conspirators may have just made use of good timing. It is indeed odd. 

 

9 minutes ago, St Daga said:

We don't even know if Jon passes out. He might go into berserker mode, which he has done on several occasions, and start fighting like a man possessed. Even Ned, with a hideously broken leg, tries to rise and fight. If that leg would have bore weight, he would have fought on, I think. Adrenaline kicks in and who knows what might happen. Jon remembers nothing of his attack on Ser Aliser or Iron Emmett, and this could be the start of such a situation again. I am just not sold on these wounds being as dire as some people suspect. It could honestly be that I am in denial ...

I have my doubts about his survival, but I could definitely see him going berserk for a bit. I think we could see this from Tormunds eyes and witness how brutal Jon can actually be when he is aiming to kill. TWOW can't get here fast enough. 

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16 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Cregan/Jon would be free of the NW oath but could keep his direwolf. This might be enough of a sign for the wildlings and some Old Gods believers. It also gives a good infiltration opportunity into Winterfell if the Bolton's have really killed Stannis.

This would make a story that GRRM is supposedly trying to wrap up vastly more complicated. But I always say that most anything is possible in this story, and this could be, too. 

Would it not seem very odd if Ghost suddenly shadowed Cregan Karstark?

I am having a hard time seeing it, but I personally think that Robb is living on in Stoneheart, and that is about as cracked pot as it can get. I say carry on with your theory and don't mind my questions! :cheers:

 

20 minutes ago, Tucu said:

More than inheritance I am go with him taking over Winterfell and fulfilling the role of the Stark in Winterfell; I assume that this role has some magical link to surviving during the Long Night 2.0.

Maybe Karstark blood is enough, without needing Jon to inhabit Cregan's body.

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"Scratch a Karstark and you'll find a Stark." ADWD-Reek III

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"Stark and Karstark are one blood." ADWD-Jon X

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"Yet if the talk was true, it was Karstark who would hold Winterfell should they take it. Somewhere in the distant past House Karstark had sprouted from House Stark" ADWD-The Sacrifice

It would be interesting if Alys and Sigorn could lay claim to Winterfell, just based on all Jon had done to allow them to lay claim to Karhold. Alys is ambitious, and if Harrion survives, she and Sigorn will need a seat of power. Jon could not have done more to bless their union in the eyes of the watch and the north. 

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21 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Jon's death is a direct reaction to GRRM reading Frodo's near death and return as well as Gandolf's death and return.  So we know for certain he won't be back exactly the same as he was, like Gandolf, or end up being not dead at all, like Frodo's. 

GRRM has indeed warned that he's going to get darker

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2 hours ago, JNR said:

And in Ghost.

 

Yes, thanks for the quote.  My access to "A Search of Ice and Fire" isn't working.  I think we get a demonstration of Mel using the power of the Wall when she puts on the display of burning Mance, glamoring Stannis' sword and destroying the horn of Joramun.  A power that she channels through her ruby and nearly ends up in flames herself.  Jon's description of the Wall alive with light in that moment is very interesting.  

The power in him is his blood, I think, and the power in Ghost might be the power of the weirwood.

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2 hours ago, JNR said:

It was an annulment, like Henry VIII's annulment of his marriage to Catherine of Aragon, in which his marriage to Elia was declared never to have been valid. 

Thus, at some point prior to the Trident, Rhaegar cast aside both Elia and his children by Elia. Very, very awkward.

Where this hilarious concept came from, I have no idea.  But it certainly didn't come from GRRM or from anyone else familiar with the canon.

I'm not saying the concept makes sense. I'm saying the show went through with the consequences that resulted from their earlier decisions. 

And I think it is possible to follow the thought as to the why.

First Jon needs a claim, so

- he has to be an acknowledges bastard of Rhaegar

- that is not possible because at least in the show universe Rhaegar died before Jon was born and furthermore Jon does not exactly look like Rhaegar

- so they have to make it legal. 

- only a marriage can help now

- and only an annulment can help, as a divorce may not even be an option within the faith and the crown is clearly following the faith of the 7 and not the old gods

It's just a more or less logical consequence of declaring Jon the rightful heir. So the idea of rightful heir was first, the consequences later. And I actually applaud the show for showing logic once in a lifetime.

From GRRM's obsession with english history, Rhaella would be the annulment choice for Aerys, but that is not in the books. 

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2 hours ago, JNR said:

And in Ghost.

And what is Ghost?  Apart from being the enormous, silent white direwolf, I mean.

Seems like there's a fairly obvious metaphorical answer to that question, actually. 

And, again, it would not surprise me one bit if Ghost finally speaks (howls, growls, etc.), next chapter we get at Castle Black.  (He may also rip some characters to shreds.)

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1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

Jon's death is a direct reaction to GRRM reading Frodo's near death and return as well as Gandolf's death and return.  So we know for certain he won't be back exactly the same as he was, like Gandolf, or end up being not dead at all, like Frodo's. 

 

  • “So you think he's dead do you?"

 

Interesting theory you have there...

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11 minutes ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:
  • “So you think he's dead do you?"

Interesting theory you have there...

Jon right now is Schrodinger's cat - simultaneously dead and alive until the next time he's observed.

Frodo was somewhat in the same state between books as well, and was resolved to be alive, which GRRM said he was disappointed in, and will resolve differently in his own books.  Maybe we'll even see Samwell act as ringbearer. 

GRRM intentionally wanted Jon to be Schrodinger's cat so he won't confirm Jon's dead, or the waveform collapses.

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2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Jon's death is a direct reaction to GRRM reading Frodo's near death and return as well as Gandolf's death and return.  So we know for certain he won't be back exactly the same as he was, like Gandolf, or end up being not dead at all, like Frodo's. 

Well, GRRM explains in interviews that Boromir's death felt both very real and really heartbreaking for him as a young reader, as did Gandolf's. GRRM has also gone on the record saying that bringing Gandolf "back" was a kind of a "cheat" on Tolkien's part, and that if it was up to him, Gandolf would have stayed dead. Now, GRRM has already given us a death of a character (Ned) who has stayed dead. Then he gives us the death of Cat, who does not stay dead, but comes back a very dark and vengeful shadow of herself. So, if he kills Jon, he either leaves him dead (we have already seen that) or he gives us Catelyn 2.0 (we have seen that as well), which is one of the reasons that I don't think he will kill Jon. Because we have seen those options. If Jon comes back somehow resurrected but darker, then that lessen's Lady Stoneheart's arc and I myself would role my eyes a bit if Jon is a fire version of a resurrection, although for arguments sake, GRRM could be planning to give us an ice resurrection of Jon, to counter what we seen of Stoneheart. But it's possible we have already seen that hinted at with Coldhands.

We have death a couple other ways as well. We have even seen the Hound's death with the hints of a different kind of survival as the gravedigger (yes, I know it's just a theory). And we have Varamyr's death, where he goes into the tree's, which I think maybe kind of what happened with Ned. But those concepts are vague, and not a exact copy of what we seen before. We even might have seen death and rebirth with Bran, although that is not clear to us yet.

These examples are reasons why I don't think he will kill Jon. GRRM does talk about the unknown with Frodo, and how at the end of the Two Towers, he was inclined to think that Frodo was dead, but then finds out in The Return of the King that he is not. GRRM doesn't seem disappointed in Frodo's survival, and he acts like he almost appreciates the unknown aspect that the story provided. He acts like he was titillated by it, enjoyed it.  I think that is what he is doing with Jon. And Frodo is very changed after his experiences, and not necessarily in a positive way.

Here is a link to the reddit post that contains that video interview on Gandolf's "death" and the Frodo cliffhanger.

A cliffhanger on the very last line of the of story seems like something he would do, since he has used that in other writings of his, but in this case, we know that the story isn't finished. Heck, he didn't even give the last chapter of Dance to Jon, he gave that to silver princess Dany. GRRM has even alluded to the fact that Jon will learn the truth of his parentage, so Jon either lives the way he currently is, or he becomes Ice Stoneheart and zombies about finding this parentage information out when it can't possibly matter any more, where he would not even process the knowledge as Jon Snow the man.

 

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

GRRM has indeed warned that he's going to get darker

That Jon will get darker? Or that the Winds of Winter will be much darker in tone? Because currently, GRRM has given us a cliffhanger of whether Jon is even alive or dead. To acknowledge that Jon is going to get darker then negates the cliff hanger with Jon at all. Of course, GRRM has also given us the "so you think he is dead" comment, which just further teases the issue.

It seems like the show's resurrection of Jon in Season 6 was something that GRRM might have heavily opposed, and later comments about Beric and Catelyn being "fire wights" and how dead they actually are surfaced at that Time article

I just think if Jon is dead, he will be truly dead. I would rather see that (and I love Jon's character) than a different version of Stoneheart. Certainly, that is just my own opinion and GRRM will do what ever he wants. It's possible that Jon's physical body is dead, and that gives Jon the option of living on in Ghost, as Varamyr hinted at or in another person, as @Tucu is theorizing. But then he is not Jon anymore, he is a hybrid sort of character, and not himself.

ETA: Catelyn's death and resurrection as Stoneheart is powerful because there is very little of Cat remaining, she is a vindictive, harsh and punishment driven and has no softness left in her. There is a powerful message in that. Her resurrection had a significant cost and she is no longer Catelyn Tully Stark. I got a huge thrill from Stoneheart's emergence in the story. I  enjoy her far more in this version than I ever did before. I even relish what she might do next. We see the cost of Beric's resurrections, and understand he is not the same, but a confused and diminished version of himself. I just don't think we will see either of these things happen with Jon, because we have already seen them happen in the story. 

 

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15 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Frodo was somewhat in the same state between books as well, and was resolved to be alive, which GRRM said he was disappointed in,

In the interview I have seen where GRRM talks about Frodo's situation at the end of The Two Towers, he talks about how Tolkein had already set up the fear of any death as possible, and that GRRM himself thought Frodo was dead, but I don't get the impression that he was disappointed in Frodo not being dead. But he did appreciate that Tolkien had set up the story in a way that in would be believable that Frodo had died. He then talks about anxiety and apprehension, roller coasters and walking down streets in unsafe neighborhoods and the feeling that inspires. And he says he wants his readers to have that fear of the unknown, and a very visceral reaction to that situation. But I don't get that he was disappointed that Frodo lived.

If you have a link to something different, I would be interested in it. I am sure GRRM has talked about this Frodo situation more than once, and perhaps I don't have a full understanding of it.

 

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1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

Frodo was somewhat in the same state between books as well, and was resolved to be alive, which GRRM said he was disappointed in

 

That's a fair point.  But here's an old  thread for your consideration:

 

Truth is, GRRM has been fake-killing characters ever since Jaime pushed Bran from the First Keep window.  And he's brought them them back to life in an impressive variety of ways.  

I don't think that old thread even addresses the narrative technique of leading readers to believe a character was killed.  But how many times have we been through that with Arya? At least twice.  (Remember Yoren approaching her with his knife, in her last AGOT chapter?  Or the Hound riding her down with an axe outside the Twins, in ASOS?)

Frankly, I'm not sure I've ever seen an author bring more characters back from the dead - no matter how much GRRM likes to complain about Tolkien's treatment of Gandalf.

The key point of GRRM's complaint, it seems to me, is that death should not be good for one's health and relationships.  So the notion that Gandalf, having died, returns to life stronger, wiser, with a better sense of humor, and some sort of miraculous, super-whitening laundry detergent...  well, it raised all sorts of objections.

Jon Snow may or may not die in these books. But I doubt he stays dead.  And when his story resumes, I expect his to be a much less sympathetic POV.

 

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29 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Well, GRRM explains in interviews that Boromir's death felt both very real and really heartbreaking for him as a young reader, as did Gandolf's. GRRM has also gone on the record saying that bringing Gandolf "back" was a kind of a "cheat" on Tolkien's part, and that if it was up to him, Gandolf would have stayed dead. Now, GRRM has already given us a death of a character (Ned) who has stayed dead. Then he gives us the death of Cat, who does not stay dead, but comes back a very dark and vengeful shadow of herself. So, if he kills Jon, he either leaves him dead (we have already seen that) or he gives us Catelyn 2.0 (we have seen that as well), which is one of the reasons that I don't think he will kill Jon. Because we have seen those options. If Jon comes back somehow resurrected but darker, then that lessen's Lady Stoneheart's arc and I myself would role my eyes a bit if Jon is a fire version of a resurrection, although for arguments sake, GRRM could be planning to give us an ice resurrection of Jon, to counter what we seen of Stoneheart. But it's possible we have already seen that hinted at with Coldhands.

We have death a couple other ways as well. We have even seen the Hound's death with the hints of a different kind of survival as the gravedigger (yes, I know it's just a theory). And we have Varamyr's death, where he goes into the tree's, which I think maybe kind of what happened with Ned. But those concepts are vague, and not a exact copy of what we seen before. We even might have seen death and rebirth with Bran, although that is not clear to us yet.

These examples are reasons why I don't think he will kill Jon. GRRM does talk about the unknown with Frodo, and how at the end of the Two Towers, he was inclined to think that Frodo was dead, but then finds out in The Return of the King that he is not. GRRM doesn't seem disappointed in Frodo's survival, and he acts like he almost appreciates the unknown aspect that the story provided. He acts like he was titillated by it, enjoyed it.  I think that is what he is doing with Jon. And Frodo is very changed after his experiences, and not necessarily in a positive way.

Here is a link to the reddit post that contains that video interview on Gandolf's "death" and the Frodo cliffhanger.

A cliffhanger on the very last line of the of story seems like something he would do, since he has used that in other writings of his, but in this case, we know that the story isn't finished. Heck, he didn't even give the last chapter of Dance to Jon, he gave that to silver princess Dany. GRRM has even alluded to the fact that Jon will learn the truth of his parentage, so Jon either lives the way he currently is, or he becomes Ice Stoneheart and zombies about finding this parentage information out when it can't possibly matter any more, where he would not even process the knowledge as Jon Snow the man.

 

That Jon will get darker? Or that the Winds of Winter will be much darker in tone? Because currently, GRRM has given us a cliffhanger of whether Jon is even alive or dead. To acknowledge that Jon is going to get darker then negates the cliff hanger with Jon at all. Of course, GRRM has also given us the "so you think he is dead" comment, which just further teases the issue.

It seems like the show's resurrection of Jon in Season 6 was something that GRRM might have heavily opposed, and later comments about Beric and Catelyn being "fire wights" and how dead they actually are surfaced at that Time article

I just think if Jon is dead, he will be truly dead. I would rather see that (and I love Jon's character) than a different version of Stoneheart. Certainly, that is just my own opinion and GRRM will do what ever he wants. It's possible that Jon's physical body is dead, and that gives Jon the option of living on in Ghost, as Varamyr hinted at or in another person, as @Tucu is theorizing. But then he is not Jon anymore, he is a hybrid sort of character, and not himself.

GRRM said Lady Stoneheart has a purpose and was a little upset she was left off the show.  I think her purpose is contrast and foreshadowing the resurrected Jon, who will come back initially looking and acting like he did before he died, eventually becoming a monster.

On a related note, GRRM said Ramsay existed to bug Theron, but with the pink letter (regardless of who really wrote it) he plays an important role in Jon's death.  If Jon comes back bent on revenge, it won't simply be against Ramsey.  I think Jon's last speech shows a lot of what he will be obsessed with. 

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12 minutes ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

Jon Snow may or may not die in these books. But I doubt he stays dead.  And when his story resumes, I expect his to be a much less sympathetic POV.

In the show, Davos refers to the men of the North as Cold, Hard, Sons of Bitches.... I think Jon is going to become one of these guys. I think he will become a reversion to the original Starks. He will finally know something. 

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6 hours ago, St Daga said:

This would make a story that GRRM is supposedly trying to wrap up vastly more complicated. But I always say that most anything is possible in this story, and this could be, too. 

Would it not seem very odd if Ghost suddenly shadowed Cregan Karstark?

I am having a hard time seeing it, but I personally think that Robb is living on in Stoneheart, and that is about as cracked pot as it can get. I say carry on with your theory and don't mind my questions! :cheers:

 

Maybe Karstark blood is enough, without needing Jon to inhabit Cregan's body.

It would be interesting if Alys and Sigorn could lay claim to Winterfell, just based on all Jon had done to allow them to lay claim to Karhold. Alys is ambitious, and if Harrion survives, she and Sigorn will need a seat of power. Jon could not have done more to bless their union in the eyes of the watch and the north. 

Karstark bloodline is probably enough, but I will be dissapointed if the second life of a skinchanger is not used for a main character :-). Now that you mentioned Alys' claim to Winterfell...could GRRM go with a transgender Alys/Jon? This was Varamyr's intention with Thistle and Ghost has a thing for women.

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3 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

GRRM said Lady Stoneheart has a purpose and was a little upset she was left off the show.  I think her purpose is contrast and foreshadowing the resurrected Jon, who will come back initially looking and acting like he did before he died, eventually becoming a monster.

I am sure that GRRM thinks that all of his character's serve a purpose. And I am sure that Stoneheart does, but I don't know that I buy it as a contrast to a Jon/Ice Wight.  I am sure I am going to be wrong about a lot of things, though!

4 hours ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

Truth is, GRRM has been fake-killing characters ever since Jaime pushed Bran from the First Keep window.  And he's brought them them back to life in an impressive variety of ways.  

I don't think that old thread even addresses the narrative technique of leading readers to believe a character was killed.  But how many times have we been through that with Arya? At least twice.  (Remember Yoren approaching her with his knife, in her last AGOT chapter?  Or the Hound riding her down with an axe outside the Twins, in ASOS?)

Frankly, I'm not sure I've ever seen an author bring more characters back from the dead - no matter how much GRRM likes to complain about Tolkien's treatment of Gandalf.

It's interesting that you point out Bran and Arya with chapter cliffhangers and Jon's chapter cliffhanger. These are the three Stark's that he said would make to the end of the story. They might not survive the conclusion, but they should be around for it. I wonder if he does tease their deaths to the reader is because his ultimate goal for them is survival.

And I would agree that his biggest complaint about Gandolf the White is that he was a squeakier, cleaner, more perfect version in rebirth than he was before. Death should have some consequence, or effect some change in a character that isn't an improvement. It certainly seems like that is what he saying with Beric.

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

Karstark bloodline is probably enough, but I will be dissapointed if the second life of a skinchanger is not used for a main character :-). Now that you mentioned Alys' claim to Winterfell...could GRRM go with a transgender Alys/Jon? This was Varamyr's intention with Thistle and Ghost has a thing for women.

Well, I speculate that we might have already seen the second life of a skin changer very early in our story, in Bran and Summer, we just don't know yet that Bran died and was reborn. I think his conscious could very well have been in Summer during his coma. I do think GRRM is capable of sneaking his payoffs into the story so early, we don't realize what we are seeing. Then the story builds forward with hints all along the way.

And by the end of the story, this second life might feel more fitting, but if it happens 2/3's of the way into the story, and then Jon lives forever in Ghost, I just don't see the appeal. Jon/Ghost could only accomplish so much, and I don't relish multiple POV's of man-claws and hard skin and dens of men. Perhaps one POV like this at the conclusion of the story would be fitting. An epilogue of a warg!

I don't see why Alys would allow this. If Jon tries to push into Cregan Karstark's mind it might work, since Cregan appears to be going a bit mad from the moment he got shoved in an ice cell and his mind might not be strong enough to force Jon out. But Alys would have to allow Jon to coexist in her mind, and I don't see why she would allow that. One of the reasons that I speculate that this could have happened with Robb and Catelyn is because Catelyn loved Robb so much, she might have been willing to allow him room in her mind. She loved him enough to sacrifice herself, for him to live in whatever way she could help him. I see no bond for Alys and Jon like this.

Maybe Dany can live on in one of her dragons! :dunno:

 

 

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9 hours ago, St Daga said:

I just think if Jon is dead, he will be truly dead. I would rather see that (and I love Jon's character) than a different version of Stoneheart. Certainly, that is just my own opinion and GRRM will do what ever he wants. It's possible that Jon's physical body is dead, and that gives Jon the option of living on in Ghost, as Varamyr hinted at or in another person, as @Tucu is theorizing. But then he is not Jon anymore, he is a hybrid sort of character, and not himself

George is playing around with the idea of the shadow-self of the characters.  Our “shadow” is  a Jungian archetype.  It’s the part of ourselves that we disassociate from.  Our negative impulses.  Somewhat analogous to Freud’s Id, only darker.  When Melisandre summons up the shadow assassin, she uses Stannis’ “shadow”, his dark impulse to slay his brother, who is standing in the way of what he wants.  The only part of Catelyn’s consciousness that seems to have been resurrected with her is her shadow self.  Her impulse for revenge, and perhaps her coveting of Winterfell for her offspring, the same impulse that leads her to hold such hostility in her heart to Jon.

My guess is that Jon’s story arc is loosely following the arc of the sword Gram from Norse mythology.  The Gram sword is also the inspiration behind Aragorn’s broken sword in the LOTR trilogy.  The Gram sword is broken, and it’s reforging leads it to becoming more powerful than ever, the sword that ultimately slays the dragon, Fafnir.  We see the idea of a broken sword in George’s story as well, Ice being broken down into two swords Oathkeeper and Widow’s Wail.  

Jon’s character is shaped by a blacksmith, Donal Noye.  When he becomes Lord Commander he takes up an armory as his living quarters.  Jon thinks that he has to become Valyrian steel like his sword, Longclaw.  

Odin traps Gram in  a tree, Barnstokkr, where the other lords in the Hall prove unable to draw it.  Jon’s oath to another Odin figure, Lord Commander Mormont, sticks him to the Wall, where he vows not to take a part in any of the conflicts of the other Lords, including his brother’s war with King’s Landing.  Stannis is also unable to draw Jon from the Wall with his promise of Winterfell.

Finally, Sigmund draws the sword, Gram,  from the tree.  And whoever pens the Pink Letter finally draws Jon from his oath to the Wall (my guess is Mance).  The sword Gram is then broken against the spear of a black cloaked soldier.  The broken shards are given to Sigmund wife to hold until it can become reforged.  My guess is, Jon is broken in two during his stabbing by his black cloaked brothers.  

There are two symbols to take notice of, both of which come up in Jon’s POV chapters.  The pommel of Jon’s sword, Long Claw, is fashioned after his direwolf, Ghost.

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The direwolf’s red eyes were darker than garnets and wiser than men.  Jon knelt, scratched his ear, and showed him the pommel of the sword.  “Look.  It’s you.”

So Ghost is the hilt of the sword, but the blade on the other hand:

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“Dalla told me something once.  Val’s sister, Mance Rayder’s wife.  She said that sorcery was a sword without a hilt.  There is no safe way to grasp it.”

”A wise woman.” Melisandre rose, her red robes stirring in the wind.  “A sword without a hilt is still a sword, though, and a sword is a fine thing to have when foes are all about.”

Now go to Jon’s final moments:

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Jon fell to his knees.  he found the dagger’s hilt and wrenched it free.  In the cold night air his wound was smoking.  “Ghost,” he whispered.  Pain washed over him.  Stick them with the pointy end.  When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow.  He never felt the fourth knife.  Only the cold ...

My thought is Jon, the sword, slated to be Lightbringer, has been broken in two.  The dagger between the shoulder blades is a clue.  His consciousness has been split, part of it has gone into Ghost, the Oathkeeper.  While his body will be resurrected, and the only part of Jon that remains will be his shadow self, his vindictive side, and the part of him that covets Winterfell.  In other words, the pointy end of the sword, the sword without a hilt, is what Jon will be resurrected as.

I think we’re going to get two distinct Jons.  Jon/Ghost, and Un/Jon.  Expect Jon’s shadow self to mirror Lady Stoneheart.  As Stoneheart exacts revenge on the Freys in the Riverlands, expect Jon to extract revenge on his brothers on the Wall.  Then expect both to turn their sights to Winterfell, where I think we’ll see a reckoning between the two.  Finally I expect that Ghost/Jon and UnJon will be reunited and reforged at Winterfell where he will become “Lightbringer”.

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6 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

George is playing around with the idea of the shadow-self of the characters.  Our “shadow” is  a Jungian archetype.  It’s the part of ourselves that we disassociate from.  Our negative impulses.  Somewhat analogous to Freud’s Id, only darker.  When Melisandre summons up the shadow assassin, she uses Stannis’ “shadow”, his dark impulse to slay his brother, who is standing in the way of what he wants.  The only part of Catelyn’s consciousness that seems to have been resurrected with her is her shadow self.  Her impulse for revenge, and perhaps her coveting of Winterfell for her offspring, the same impulse that leads her to hold such hostility in her heart to Jon.

My guess is that Jon’s story arc is loosely following the arc of the sword Gram from Norse mythology.  The Gram sword is also the inspiration behind Aragorn’s broken sword in the LOTR trilogy.  The Gram sword is broken, and it’s reforging leads it to becoming more powerful than ever, the sword that ultimately slays the dragon, Fafnir.  We see the idea of a broken sword in George’s story as well, Ice being broken down into two swords Oathkeeper and Widow’s Wail.  

Jon’s character is shaped by a blacksmith, Donal Noye.  When he becomes Lord Commander he takes up an armory as his living quarters.  Jon thinks that he has to become Valyrian steel like his sword, Longclaw.  

Odin traps Gram in  a tree, Barnstokkr, where the other lords in the Hall prove unable to draw it.  Jon’s oath to another Odin figure, Lord Commander Mormont, sticks him to the Wall, where he vows not to take a part in any of the conflicts of the other Lords, including his brother’s war with King’s Landing.  Stannis is also unable to draw Jon from the Wall with his promise of Winterfell.

Finally, Sigmund draws the sword, Gram,  from the tree.  And whoever pens the Pink Letter finally draws Jon from his oath to the Wall (my guess is Mance).  The sword Gram is then broken against the spear of a black cloaked soldier.  The broken shards are given to Sigmund wife to hold until it can become reforged.  My guess is, Jon is broken in two during his stabbing by his black cloaked brothers.  

There are two symbols to take notice of, both of which come up in Jon’s POV chapters.  The pommel of Jon’s sword, Long Claw, is fashioned after his direwolf, Ghost.

So Ghost is the hilt of the sword, but the blade on the other hand:

Now go to Jon’s final moments:

My thought is Jon, the sword, slated to be Lightbringer, has been broken in two.  The dagger between the shoulder blades is a clue.  His consciousness has been split, part of it has gone into Ghost, the Oathkeeper.  While his body will be resurrected, and the only part of Jon that remains will be his shadow self, his vindictive side, and the part of him that covets Winterfell.  In other words, the pointy end of the sword, the sword without a hilt, is what Jon will be resurrected as.

I think we’re going to get two distinct Jons.  Jon/Ghost, and Un/Jon.  Expect Jon’s shadow self to mirror Lady Stoneheart.  As Stoneheart exacts revenge on the Freys in the Riverlands, expect Jon to extract revenge on his brothers on the Wall.  Then expect both to turn their sights to Winterfell, where I think we’ll see a reckoning between the two.  Finally I expect that Ghost/Jon and UnJon will be reunited and reforged at Winterfell where he will become “Lightbringer”.

Oh I do like this one  :agree:

To summarise and simplify, we start off with a deeply conflicted Jon, torn between duty and family, between the realms of men and what lies beyond. Stabbing him in the back releases him from duty and allows him to embrace the dark side, but eventually he will be "reforged", balancing the the two.

Or Mel could simply breathe fire into his arse to revive him and set off to defeat the blue-eyed lot and sit on the Iron Throne in the name of R'hllor.

Now which scenario is more likely

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