Heresy 212 The Wolves

[SirArthur]

Bringing up my rather silly water management theme once again .... where would the trees under the Wall get the water and the light from ?

[Matthew.]

6 hours ago, St Daga said:

It's very possible that they are bound in some way, as it seems that Coldhands is. Is there something north and south of the wall that makes them appear different, or could our greenmen simply dress in green but have black hands, just like Coldhands?

Along these lines, my personal suspicion is that they're a step further removed from humanity than even Coldhands, and that the Green Men are to earth and life as the Others are to ice and death--a full transformation into a different form of life, perhaps something akin to the Faun in Pan's Labyrinth.
 

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

I never meant to suggest wierwoods would get up and walk around like Ents.  If they are all connected, and their roots run under everything, and could break a land bridge or bring down the Wall just by moving a few centimeters and the part above ground wouldn't need to move at all. 

I once read a theory that suggested something similar, the premise being to interpret the weirwood as something repulsive--a massive, unified organism whose roots interconnect with one another and run everywhere in Westeros, that can writhe and wriggle on their own when fully awakened.

Subjectively, I don't really love the idea, but I will play devil's advocate and point out that the section of ADWD where Theon is hearing words in the godswood - presumably, attempts by Bran to communicate - does seem to suggest that the weirwood is rustling on its own, rather than in response to any environmental condition:

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The night was windless, the snow drifting straight down out of a cold black sky, yet the leaves of the heart tree were rustling his name. "Theon," they seemed to whisper, "Theon."

...

A leaf drifted down from above, brushed his brow, and landed in the pool. It floated on the water, red, five-fingered, like a bloody hand. "… Bran," the tree murmured.

The narration is vague enough that it might be alternately suggested that Theon hasn't necessarily seen the leaves physically rustle, just heard the sound and assumed that they must be rustling because he has no personal context for True Tongue, or greenseer speech, or whatever is really happening--nonetheless, stranger possibilities don't seem entirely out of the question.

[Matthew.]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

If the Weirwoods created the White Walkers than perhaps that could be analogous to getting up and walking like an Ent:

In addition to the passages you raised, I'm also fond of reading this segment of Varamyr's prologue as possibly symbolizing/foreshadowing the relationship between the spirits of the weirwood, and the white walkers:

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Outside, the night was white as death; pale thin clouds danced attendance on a silver moon, while a thousand stars watched coldly. He could see the humped shapes of other huts buried beneath drifts of snow, and beyond them the pale shadow of a weirwood armored in ice. 

 

[JNR]

8 hours ago, St Daga said:

This is an interesting idea. Does it fit Bran's age all that well, though. Bran is seven at the start of the story, and summer is nine years going on ten.

A curious quotation Wolfmaid's discussed before is this one, from AGOT:

Quote

This summer had lasted ten years. Jon had been a babe in arms when it began.

One of the few canonical lines that really just makes no sense to me.  Makes it sound like Jon was developmentally delayed in the manner of Robert Arryn or similar.

[St Daga]

17 hours ago, Janneyc1 said:

I don't think that the weirwoods are in the base of the Wall. It just isn't a place that you would expect them. I do think that the Horn of Winter would break the Wall. But my thoughts are that there is a dragon(s) in the base of the Wall and that the Horn will awake them. Here's the description:

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The horn was huge, eight feet along the curve and so wide at the mouth that he could have put his arm inside up to the elbow. If this came from an aurochs, it was the biggest that ever lived. At first he thought the bands around it were bronze, but when he moved closer he realized they were gold. Old gold, more brown than yellow, and graven with runes.

And here is the description of Dragon Binder: 

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The horn he blew was shiny black and twisted, and taller than a man as he held it with both hands. It was bound about with bands of red gold and dark steel, incised with ancient Valyrian glyphs that seemed to glow redly as the sound swelled.

These are similar horns so I would expect that they perform in a similar fashion. Controlling Dragons. 

Would these be ice dragons in the wall?

I do see some similarity to the two horns, but so far we don't know that Euron's horn does bind dragons. It certainly is hazardous to the person who blows he horn, but so far we don't know if it truly was designed to bind dragons. And, we don't know what the burned horn might have controlled either. Although, as a working theory, I like this idea that they are similar. Not the same though, as runes and Valyrian glyphs are different, old brown gold vs red gold and steel. It's odd to decorate a horn with steel, I think, even if it's Valyrian steel.

16 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I kind of wonder if GRRM slipped in a subtle hint that Beric visited the Isle:

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They learned that Lord Beric had ten starvelings with him, or else a hundred mounted knights; that he had ridden west, or north, or south; that he had crossed the lake in a boat; that he was strong as an aurochs or weak from the bloody flux.

Interesting. This is something I have never picked out of the text before. A little truth hidden in a lot of fiction, perhaps!

17 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

I never meant to suggest wierwoods would get up and walk around like Ents.  If they are all connected, and their roots run under everything, and could break a land bridge or bring down the Wall just by moving a few centimeters and the part above ground wouldn't need to move at all. 

No, they would not need to move much. In my head, I am not seeing Ent's marching across the landscape carting hobbit's around, but more the concept of the tree's moving enough to be threatening. I guess I am picturing in my head the evil forest from the 2005 film The Brother's Grimm. Honestly, I am not sure if that idea came from a Grimm tale, but they are pretty dark and creepy tales and the forest plays heavily in many of their tales.

 

 

[St Daga]

16 hours ago, SirArthur said:

Bringing up my rather silly water management theme once again .... where would the trees under the Wall get the water and the light from ?

Hhmm! If these tree's can live forever if they are undisturbed, do they need water and sunlight? They are not normal tree's, perhaps they don't need normal nourishment. Just blood and prayers? Or if they are all connected at some point deep, deep in the earth, then perhaps that is where their nourishment comes from? I don't really know how it could work.

 

15 hours ago, Matthew. said:

22 hours ago, St Daga said:

It's very possible that they are bound in some way, as it seems that Coldhands is. Is there something north and south of the wall that makes them appear different, or could our greenmen simply dress in green but have black hands, just like Coldhands?

Along these lines, my personal suspicion is that they're a step further removed from humanity than even Coldhands, and that the Green Men are to earth and life as the Others are to ice and death--a full transformation into a different form of life, perhaps something akin to the Faun in Pan's Labyrinth.

Perhaps this explains why the green men might be as illusive as the Other's, they are built to hide and protect themselves from the eyes of men. Both are thought to be either's myths, or something that died out of the world thousands of years before.

Quote

 

The fat man was confused. "The elk?"

 

"Coldhands," said Bran impatiently. "The green men ride on elks, Old Nan used to say. Sometimes they have antlers too."

 

"He wasn't a green man. He wore blacks, like a brother of the Watch, but he was pale as a wight, with hands so cold that at first I was afraid. ASOS-Bran IV

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Whether the green men still survive on their isle is not clear although there is the occasional account of some foolhardy young riverlord taking a boat to the isle and catching sight of them before winds rise up or a flock of ravens drives him away. The nursery tales claiming that they are horned and have dark, green skin is a corruption of the likely truth, which is that the green men wore green garments and horned headdresses. TWOIAF-Ancient History: The Coming of First Men

Perhaps the only difference between Coldhands and the greenmen is the color of clothing they are wearing. Coldhands fits a combination of the myths, he rides an else but does not have horns himself. His skin is not green, it's pale with black hands, and he wears black. Perhaps the green men are quite pale and where green, to blend into their surroundings. 

Something I have never noted about the green men on the Isle of Faces is that rumors claim that flocks of ravens can drive witnesses away, which sounds a whole lot like Coldhands and his ravens that drove the wights away. 

Maybe they are the same thing, or at least the same magic animates them. It really makes me curious how old Coldhands is. Could he date back to the signing of the Pact?

 

15 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I'm also fond of reading this segment of Varamyr's prologue as possibly symbolizing/foreshadowing the relationship between the spirits of the weirwood, and the white walkers:

Quote

Outside, the night was white as death; pale thin clouds danced attendance on a silver moon, while a thousand stars watched coldly. He could see the humped shapes of other huts buried beneath drifts of snow, and beyond them the pale shadow of a weirwood armored in ice. 

 

This is interesting, and I don't know that I ever picked it out of the text before. Pale shadow armored in ice? How could that related to Jon's dream of being armored in black ice? Could darkness make the difference in the imagery? Or a black weirwood? Or perhaps what ever the black-barked, blue leaved tree's in Qarth are?

 

[St Daga]

14 hours ago, JNR said:

22 hours ago, St Daga said:

This is an interesting idea. Does it fit Bran's age all that well, though. Bran is seven at the start of the story, and summer is nine years going on ten.

A curious quotation Wolfmaid's discussed before is this one, from AGOT:

Quote

This summer had lasted ten years. Jon had been a babe in arms when it began.

One of the few canonical lines that really just makes no sense to me.  Makes it sound like Jon was developmentally delayed in the manner of Robert Arryn or similar.

Babe in arms is a phrase that has raised many questions over the years. Babe in arms is usually described as a baby to young to walk. I have also seen it defined as "someone who is young and does not have much experience". If Jon was an infant when summer started, then we do have a growth issue or a time lapse issue. IF GRRM used this phrase to describe Jon thinking of himself as young and inexperienced, then there is no time discrepancy. It's an odd use of phrase. In our text, Gilly's baby and baby Aegon are described as babes in arms, and they are infants, although Aegon could have been up to a year old at his death. There are a few more vague usages, which could just describe quite young children, perhaps big enough to walk but small enough to still be carried. It is perplexing!

You make an interesting comparison to Robert Arryn, though. He is six but frail and small for his age. He is carried at times, but is also capable of walking. But if Jon was like Robert at one point, what changed him into a fit and healthy (even if he is slender) young man?

[JNR]

19 minutes ago, St Daga said:

In our text, Gilly's baby and baby Aegon are described as babes in arms, and they are infants, although Aegon could have been up to a year old at his death. There are a few more vague usages, which could just describe quite young children, perhaps big enough to walk but small enough to still be carried.

I think GRRM uses it to mean a very young child who is regularly carried, because that's the best option.

In addition to the double application to Aegon (who was roughly a year old when he died according to GRRM), we have:

Quote

Swallowing his dignity, he asked Bronn to carry him, hoping against hope that at this hour there would be no one to see and smile, no one to tell the tale of the dwarf being carried up the steps like a babe in arms.

Here, Tyrion is carried because there's really no alternative.

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There were three women for every man, many with children—pale skinny things clutching at their skirts. Jon saw very few babes in arms. The babes in arms died during the march, he realized, and those who survived the battle died in the king's stockade.

 

Here the idea is that if Jon sees a wildling child "clutching skirts," of whom there are many, he doesn't consider that child a babe in arms, because that child can walk.  The babes in arms, he concludes, are now almost all dead.

So we can see Jon considers "babe in arms" to mean "child who is regularly carried," and for Jon think he was such a child when the summer began is bizarre.  If I had to guess, it's just a mistake that slipped by GRRM and his editor.

[St Daga]

19 minutes ago, JNR said:

So we can see Jon considers "babe in arms" to mean "child who is regularly carried," and for Jon think he was such a child when the summer began is bizarre.  If I had to guess, it's just a mistake that slipped by GRRM and his editor.

It probably is a mistake. That makes the most sense.

Here is another odd use of "babes in arms":

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"Ser Jaime, I have seen terrible things in my time," the old man said. "Wars, battles, murders most foul . . . I was a boy in Oldtown when the grey plague took half the city and three-quarters of the Citadel. Lord Hightower burned every ship in port, closed the gates, and commanded his guards to slay all those who tried to flee, be they men, women, or babes in arms. They killed him when the plague had run its course. On the very day he reopened the port, they dragged him from his horse and slit his throat, and his young son's as well. To this day the ignorant in Oldtown will spit at the sound of his name, but Quenton Hightower did what was needed. Your father was that sort of man as well. A man who did what was needed." AFFC-Jaime I

Pycelle and Jaime are discussing how Tywin did "what was needed" regardless of how it was perceived, and use the example of plague in Old Town, and how the Lord Hightower of that time had every person who tried to flee killed. He lists men, women or babes in arms as examples of who died. It seems like a large gap to go from adults to infants. What about young children who can walk but are not adults yet? And honestly, how can an infant try to flee? Someone is making them flee!

I suppose that GRRM is just not always careful when using these phrases.

[St Daga]

On 8/28/2018 at 1:02 PM, St Daga said:

On 8/28/2018 at 12:32 PM, Frey family reunion said:

Well George would know if Jon is dead dead, or merely almost dead.  So if Jon is in fact dead dead, and needs to be resurrected, George may be having trouble in the execution of this plotline (pun sort of intended).

I get what you are saying, but Jon is not in fact "a confirmed" death at the end of Dance. He is just "hit in the head with Sandor's axe", so no retcon needed. Now, it's possible that GRRM's plan was for Jon to be dead and resurrected, but if he changes his mind, I don't see it as terribly hard to fix. But perhaps it is because GRRM wrote everything else, then circled back to writing Jon's death, much like he did with writing Robb and Cat's death. But in the case of Ned, or Robb and Cat, GRRM seems very sure that it was needed to move the plot forward. I would think if he did kill Jon, as a major player, he would feel sure that it needed to happen for the story to continue, and would continue with that plot line. That is why I lean toward Jon not being the character that he was referring to.

I have been thinking about this a bit in relation to Jon Snow. I am still not sold on the idea that Jon is dead, but we are lacking POV character's at the wall currently. I think there is only Jon and Mel, so if Jon is dead, then Mel would be our only POV character there. And GRRM has told us there will be no new POV's in the story, so that could be a problem if Jon is indeed dead, or meditating inside of Ghost.  Even if Jon is not dead but GRRM is trying to give us the impression that he is could perhaps cause a problem. Still, we do have Mel at the wall to tell the story even if Jon is dead or hidden.

Any way, I have been thinking on this character death that GRRM needs in relation to a POV for the story. Any idea's on someone else he might need as a POV? The POV's that are confirmed dead at the end of Dance (I am ignoring all the odd implications with Jon) are Eddard, Quentyn Martell and Arys Oakheart. Quentyn is possible, but we still have Barristan in Meereen, and I am not even sure I think Quentyn is really dead. Arys Oakheart is confirmed dead but other people can tell the story in Dorne, I think. Although Arianne is off to find Aegon, but we still have Areo Hotah, but it's hard to imagine he would go far from Doran. Eddard is very unlikely, since I can't imagine GRRM regretting that death, and we have POV's in most of the places Ned would be.

So, if it's a POV problem, does that hint at someone who GRRM killed off early in Winds, but now needs? This could be Jon, as you speculate, or other speculated deaths are Aeron Greyjoy, Jaime or Brienne (doubtful they are dead), Theon or Asha if Stannis kills one of them, Barristan or Areo could cause problems if they are killed off as that could effect the ability to tell the story in a certain location. 

Do you think this dilemma on GRRM's part is POV related?

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

Any way, I have been thinking on this character death that GRRM needs in relation to a POV for the story. Any idea's on someone else he might need as a POV?

I think we'll have Ghost/Jon as one POV and probably Melisandre as the other POV, up until the point that she resurrects, Jon, because I have a feeling that Melisandre may end up as one of the sacrifices used to raise Jon.  We learn that the first thing that Melisandre looks for in her vision is a threat to herself:

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Melisandre paid the naked steel no mind.  If the wildling had meant her harm, she would have seen it in her flames.  Danger to her own person was the first thing she had learned to see, back when she was still half a child, a slave girl bound for life to the great red temple.  It was still the first thing she looked for whenever she gazed into the fire.

And if we turn to her earlier visions this was the first thing she saw:

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Visions danced before her, gold and scarlet, flickering, forming and melting and dissolving into one another, shapes strange and terrifying and seductive.  She saw the eyeless faces again, staring out at her from sockets weeping blood. 

Melisandre mistakenly (IMO) interprets this to be the nine missing rangers:

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"Hear me now, Jon Snow.  Nine crows flew into the white wood to find your foes for you.  Three of them are dead.  They have not died yet, but their death is out there waiting for them, and they ride to meet it.  You sent them forth to be your eyes in the darkness, but they will be eyeless when they return to you.  I have seen their pale dead faces in my flames.  Empty sockets, weeping blood."

In reality I think her vision is showing her a danger to her own person, the nine white weirwoods outside the Wall:

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The sun was sinking below the trees when they reached their destination, a small clearing in the deep of the wood where nine weirwoods grew in a rough circle.  Jon drew in a breath, and he saw Sam Tarly staring.  ...

The wide smooth trunks were bone pale, and the nine faces stared inward.  The dried sap that crusted in the eyes was red and hard as ruby.

I think this will be the place where Jon will be resurrected.  With a number of sacrifices with king's blood used in the ritual.  Probably:

Gerrick Kingsblood,

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"Him with the red hair, he's Gerrick Kingsblood's get.  Comes o' the line o' Raymund Redbeard, to hear him tell it."

Patrek Florent, Queen Selyse, and perhaps poor Shireen

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"We Florents have the blood of the old Gardener kings in our veins."

Arnolf and Alys Karstark

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"I wonder.  Scratch a Karstark and you'll find a Stark.

And some I'm sure I'm forgetting.  We're probably looking at nine in all, a sacrifice for each of the nine weiroods.  Plus perhaps Melisandre herself, probably much to her surprise. 

And after Jon's resurrection and Melisandre's demise, I think UnJon or "Dark Jon" will return as a POV.  Possibly giving us two POV's both containing a portion of Jon's consciousness.

[St Daga]

2 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Melisandre mistakenly (IMO) interprets this to be the nine missing rangers:

Quote

"Hear me now, Jon Snow.  Nine crows flew into the white wood to find your foes for you.  Three of them are dead.  They have not died yet, but their death is out there waiting for them, and they ride to meet it.  You sent them forth to be your eyes in the darkness, but they will be eyeless when they return to you.  I have seen their pale dead faces in my flames.  Empty sockets, weeping blood."

In reality I think her vision is showing her a danger to her own person, the nine white weirwoods outside the Wall:

I agree that empty sockets weeping blood does fit the imagery of the weirwood but why does she interpret 3 dead among the tree's (men), if her vision is of the tree's and not the rangers?

5 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

And some I'm sure I'm forgetting.  We're probably looking at nine in all.  Plus perhaps Melisandre herself, probably much to her surprise. 

Nine seems like a lot of sacrifices but I suppose that is possible. I do like the connection to the weirwood grove, but perhaps Mel lights those tree's on fire instead of nine people. There is something about her and the burning of the weirwoods that seems to be a theme in the story. Unless she ties 9 people to these nine weirwoods? She tells Jon that three of nine are dead, so perhaps she only needs three lives for a resurrection.

I am still not sold on this idea of Jon's death, but am certainly willing to explore the path.

12 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

And after Jon's resurrection and Melisandre's demise, I think UnJon or "Dark Jon" will return as a POV.  Possibly giving us two POV's both containing a portion of Jon's consciousness.

I don't understand why we would get an unJon POV when we don't have an unCat POV. (Of course, my tinfoil that unCat is really Robb, or a combination of Cat and Robb, so perhaps that is why no POV as it would be too obvious of what happened when Cat was tearing her face to shreds and screaming about the pain, the pain...)

So, you don't think that GRRM (via a random comment by Diana Gabaldon) could be talking about any other character but Jon? Even if it's not a POV character? I seriously think his delay in publishing the next book is that he is trying to outlast that abomination which shall remain unnamed!

[Frey family reunion]

38 minutes ago, St Daga said:

I agree that empty sockets weeping blood does fit the imagery of the weirwood but why does she interpret 3 dead among the tree's (men), if her vision is of the tree's and not the rangers?

This is a fair point.  It could be that Melisandre's vision is showing her the last thing she sees before her death.  And if she's in the middle of the grove, she's only going to be able to see some of the trees at once.

38 minutes ago, St Daga said:

She tells Jon that three of nine are dead, so perhaps she only needs three lives for a resurrection.

This is possible as well.  Only it seems that we have a number of candidates with "king's blood" to sacrifice.  But I would agree that the number three often seems linked to death in the story.

38 minutes ago, St Daga said:

I don't understand why we would get an unJon POV when we don't have an unCat POV. (Of course, my tinfoil that unCat is really Robb, or a combination of Cat and Robb, so perhaps that is why no POV as it would be too obvious of what happened when Cat was tearing her face to shreds and screaming about the pain, the pain...)

So, you don't think that GRRM (via a random comment by Diana Gabaldon) could be talking about any other character but Jon? Even if it's not a POV character? I seriously think his delay in publishing the next book is that he is trying to outlast that abomination which shall remain unnamed!

Another fair point about losing Cat's POV.  Perhaps George killed off a character that he could have used as a POV instead of Jon.  I doubt the other POV would be Ghost/Jon, but I suppose that's a possibility.  My instincts tell me that Ghost/Jon will flee Castle Black only to be reunited with "Dark Jon" at Winterfell.  Perhaps I'm wrong about Melisandre's demise in the weirwood grove, and she will remain a POV.  Or like you suggest, there is a secret about Cat's consciousness that George doesn't want to reveal.  And I do agree with you that Robb's consciousness may have gone into Cat (the similarities between her clawing her face, and the spearwife clawing her eyes out in Varamyr's POV are pretty striking.  I may even go you one better and suggest that she may have received both Robb and Grey Wind's consciousness.

[Frey family reunion]

30 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Even if it's not a POV character? I seriously think his delay in publishing the next book is that he is trying to outlast that abomination which shall remain unnamed!

Ha!

I think George is really struggling to figure out how to wrap this story up.  I think he got too ambitious in ASOS, and allowed the story to grow too big.  And like I suggested earlier, I could both be right about how George originally intended to write Jon, and I could be wrong about how Jon's story ends up.   Perhaps George wrote this out as Jon's story arc and became immediately dissatisfied with the result, and he is backtracking and undoing Jon's death/resurrection.  And because Jon is such a principal character, this might take a lot of rewriting.

[St Daga]

19 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

This is a fair point.  It could be that Melisandre's vision is showing her the last thing she sees before her death.  And if she's in the middle of the grove, she's only going to be able to see some of the trees at once.

I just reread Mel's POV chapter, and when she is with Jon, looking at the three heads on spears with there eyes removed, she doesn't seem at all surprised, or as if that view didn't fit her vision. Now, I do like an alternate explanation for her vision (she is shit at interpretation, I think) but she knows what she see's. Jon asks her about the other six rangers, and she tells him she only seen these three. Though she tells him she will look for them.

Now, I would not be at all surprised if Mel wasn't behind the deaths of these three men, Black Jack Bulwar, Garth Greyfeather and Hairy Hal. She adn her men would be able to find out the Weeper's calling card of removing eyes and use that here. But why would the Weeper be leaving bodies at Castle Black when he is supposed to be close to the Shadow Tower. There is also something odd about the fact that one head is on a crooked spear while the other two are on straight spears. And Ghost pisses on Black Jack's spear, as well. Possibly the crooked spear is a hint at Garth Greyfeather's sexual preference (if he and Alf of Runnymudd were lovers), but there is no guarantee that his head was on the crooked spear. All of these things mean something, but deciphering them is not easy. We may need for information before the clue falls into place.

Mel is not above conniving to make her visions appear true. She did this with the three leaches to earn Stannis' trust. So, could she have planned this killing of the three rangers in an attempt to gain Jon's trust (it works pretty well) when perhaps she actually has seen a bit of a different vision, something that connects to your thoughts on the weirwood grove? She is untrustworthy in several respects, even if her intentions are good. I do think she believes she is working in the best interests of whatever cause she has, but no sacrifice is to much for her to contemplate, and that makes her very dangerous.

She tells Stannis that she seen two futures, one where Stannis fights Renly and one where they do not meet in battle, BUT if Renly dies, then the vision she saw of Renly and Stannis battling at Kings Landing won't happen. But it happens regardless, just with Garlan Tyrell in Renly's armor, which is probably the vision she seen from the start. But what might have happened if Renly and Stannis had joined forces against the Lannister? The Lannister's would have fallen, Robb would still be alive perhaps, and maybe Balon Greyjoy, as well, and the mess that is Euron would have stayed away! 

If Mel ever burns, I think it will be Stannis who lights the torch!

 

38 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I may even go you one better and suggest that she may have received both Robb and Grey Wind's consciousness.

I would love this, and it gives us three consciousness' in one vengeful body! Three in one has a very Christian trinity vibe, but a very dark vibe. Arya recognizes Cat's remains as that of her mother through her warging wolf's eyes, but perhaps what Nymeria really sensed when she pulled Cat's remains out of the river was Grey Wind! I like it.

 

36 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I think George is really struggling to figure out how to wrap this story up.  I think he got too ambitious in ASOS, and allowed the story to grow too big. 

To me the story still seems focused at the end of Storm, but Feast and Dance are certainly different in detail, pace and cadence. At that rate, there is no way he finishes in seven books. I have always felt like it would be nine, which actually gives me little hope that the story will ever be finished, and if it is, it will not be by GRRM. I think I like to live in a happy little bubble where I blame the publishing delay on the show, and not the harsh reality of an author who has lost his way.

 

[Melifeather]

5 hours ago, St Daga said:

 

5 hours ago, St Daga said:

speculated deaths are Aeron Greyjoy,

 

Aeron is the POV of the bootlegged The Foresaken chapter, so he ain't daid yet!

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

 

3 hours ago, St Daga said:

I don't understand why we would get an unJon POV when we don't have an unCat POV. (Of course, my tinfoil that unCat is really Robb, or a combination of Cat and Robb, so perhaps that is why no POV as it would be too obvious of what happened when Cat was tearing her face to shreds and screaming about the pain, the pain...)

This theory is starting to make a lot of sense. I think I recall an SSM where he explains why Catelyn stopped being a POV once she became Lady Stoneheart. If my memory serves, it's because she's not really Catelyn anymore. So if Jon is undead, he cannot be a POV any longer, which leaves GRRM very limited if he decides to stick with just a Melisandre POV. Personally I think he should do a Delorous Edd POV, but not as a Prologue! Prologues always die!

On 8/29/2018 at 2:09 PM, Janneyc1 said:

I don't think that the weirwoods are in the base of the Wall. It just isn't a place that you would expect them. I do think that the Horn of Winter would break the Wall. But my thoughts are that there is a dragon(s) in the base of the Wall and that the Horn will awake them. Here's the description:

And here is the description of Dragon Binder: 

These are similar horns so I would expect that they perform in a similar fashion. Controlling Dragons. 

If the horn that Euron had was a dragon binding horn, shouldn't the opposing horn bind white walkers? I realize that the in-story history of the Horn of Winter is to blow the Wall down, and maybe it can - it just doesn't feel like correct purpose to me.

 

[Brad Stark]

I am not sure why everyone thinks we need a POV on The Wall, but I wouldn't be surprised if Davos heads back that way soon.  He is too closely tied to Mel. 

[St Daga]

4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

9 hours ago, St Daga said:

 

9 hours ago, St Daga said:

speculated deaths are Aeron Greyjoy,

  Reveal hidden contents

Thanks for this.

Spoiler

 

I have stubbornly refused to read any of the Winds chapters, but of course, you can't spend time on these boards without picking up some information. I don't even mind hearing the information, I just refuse to read them for myself.  For some reason I though Aeron's fate was already sealed, but perhaps I am thinking way ahead of the game!

I admit I have been very, very tempted to read that Mercy chapter! 

 

 

[JNR]

12 hours ago, St Daga said:

And honestly, how can an infant try to flee?

Slowly, I'm sure...

9 hours ago, St Daga said:

I think I like to live in a happy little bubble where I blame the publishing delay on the show, and not the harsh reality of an author who has lost his way.

I think there's at least one other option: he's always known, even in surprising detail, what he's doing, but (per interview responses), he is trying much too hard to live up to his press and deliver an ending that blows minds. 

Quote

"I want to give them something terrific," he says. "What if I fuck it up at the end? What if I do a Lost? Then they'll come after me with pitchforks and torches."

He said that seven years ago.

Well, a perfect endgame just isn't going to happen.  It probably can't even be defined objectively.  IMO, he'd do much better simply to deliver a skilled and complete ending in which major character arcs are executed, the plot concludes, and all the major mysteries are resolved -- inside two (very large) books.  

[Black Crow]

I rather suspect, given the consistency of what he's said over the years, that GRRM knows exactly how this is going to end and that there are instructions to be opened in the event of his popping his clogs before he gets there to ensure that HIS story is finished the way way he wants it to, eg: for Jon Stark to become King of Winter rather than warming his bum on the Iron Throne as {      } Targaryen

In the meantime however appears seriously mired in getting the important characters in the right place at the right time to achieve HIS ending.

But that may be something for Heresy 213