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Heresy 212 The Wolves


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18 minutes ago, Janneyc1 said:

Didn't Martin make an SSM about something that The Shadow knows? I think it was in connection to RLJ. If so,it could mean you are on the right track. 

Howland was one of the shadows in Ned's ToJ dream and the only companion that survived the encounter. We have no way to know if GRRM was giving away a hint or he just used a popular culture reference to avoid giving an answer (or both)

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56 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

Hmmm...  and where do we hear of two Stark hellhounds fighting each other in the North/at the Wall??

1).   The Night King, a brother to the (Stark) man who brought him down.

2). Bael the Bard, slain by his own son, the Stark in Winterfell.  (This works if you believe the hints that the Bael take is a story of Stark incest.)

The Bael the Bard story doesn't necessarily have to be Stark incest to work. It could simply be that Bael was a wildling of First Men descent, and that his blood is part of the Stark family tree. And if it turns out that Lyanna's child was Bael's - all that means is that the father is also of First Men blood.

As for the Nights King - I do believe he was brought down by his brother, but "brother" can mean more than one thing, because Jon Snow and Ramsay Snow are brothers by bastardy and share the bastard last name of the same region. I believe you yourself pointed this out a long time ago once. 

44 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I just found out that there is a Winter Hill (like Winterfell) near Bolton in NW England with two bronze age burial mounds and bronze age cairn. Curiously its parent peak is the nearby Hail Storm Hill and is part of the West Pennine Moors (moorland).

This is a pretty cool find!

24 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Howland was one of the shadows in Ned's ToJ dream and the only companion that survived the encounter. We have no way to know if GRRM was giving away a hint or he just used a popular culture reference to avoid giving an answer (or both)

If Howland is now a greenseer wedded to a tree and Ned knew about it, he could view Howland as being "dead". All of Ned's men were dead by the time Ned had his fever dream, thus all are portrayed as wraiths. Howland rode away with him after the fight, but is still a wraith, because he didn't become a greenseer until afterward.

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8 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

As for the Nights King - I do believe he was brought down by his brother, but "brother" can mean more than one thing, because Jon Snow and Ramsay Snow are brothers by bastardy and share the bastard last name of the same region. I believe you yourself pointed this out a long time ago once. 

Just bringing down a brother of the Night´s Watch. Nothing constructed, so that all Royce are brothers, because the have the same surname.

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1 hour ago, Tucu said:
11 hours ago, St Daga said:

My recent search of barrows and cairns and cists lead me all over the British Isles and several of my findings in Heresy 211 lead me to Dartmoor in Devon. This area of moorland reminded me of reading The Hound of the Baskerville's probably twenty years ago. So, I decided to refresh my memory and reread, mostly looking for references to the "hellhound" that was said to be a curse upon the Baskerville family.

I just found out that there is a Winter Hill (like Winterfell) near Bolton in NW England with two bronze age burial mounds and bronze age cairn. Curiously its parent peak is the nearby Hail Storm Hill and is part of the West Pennine Moors (moorland).

This is very interesting. It fits my thoughts that Winterfell earned it's name for being a Hill of Winter, hill being a fjell or fell in old norse. Fjall or fell meaning mountain in old norse, and fell being known as a mountain or high hill in old English. The place names surrounding it, such as Bolton and Storm Hill do nod at inspiring GRRM.

An interesting thing to me is that these places you mention are in Lancashire, which historically is the seat of House Lancaster, which is certainly something that has inspired part of GRRM's story, as fa as the War of the Roses goes. The story never mentions what kind of stone that Casterly Rock is carved out of, but I find it curious the type of rock isn't mentioned.

The recent reading I have been doing has be convinced that area's of moorland play a part in the story around Winterfell, and perhaps around the tower of joy, whatever that was. I am not convinced it was in the south, as we are led to believe, although there could be moorland all over Westeros. I have recently become interested in the idea that the tower of joy wasn't a tower at all, but a tor. A tor being a high area of exposed granite in the moorlands. Some of these very much resemble tower's from a distance. Ned says that Rhaegar called "it" the "tower of joy", but perhaps it really was a tor that resembled a tower? And known by a different name by locals.

The only tor named in our story is House Jordayne of the Tor, which is a nod to Robert Jordan and Tor publishing, at least as I understand it, and GRRM has placed The Tor in Dorne, actually south of where the toj lies on maps. Even though House Jordayne doesn't get a text mention until Clash, it is named in the Game appendix, along with House Wyl known for it's blackadder sigil. I think these houses are more than just a nod to popular culture, but I could be wrong about that.

I am drawn to the idea of a granite tor or at least granite as a source being near Winterfell because Winterfell is the only castle in our story built of granite, and most castles were built with stone that was near them in locality. It's not easy to move blocks of granite. There is granite in Winterfell and there is granite in the crypts of Winterfell for the statues, so the castle must lie near an area of granite or a quarry. Tor's can be made of other substances, but most commonly are granite and rise out of moorland. The British isles have several area's of moorland, Dartmoor and Exmoor are the areas that I looked into the most, but for relatively small area of the world, the British isles contain 15% of the world moorland, which is significant in the overall landscape of the British isles.

I did come across a place in Ireland known as Corn Hill, or Cairn Hill, or Carn Clonhugh, which sounds similar to the Winter Hill you mention and is noted for bronze age cairns.  It is a relatively high hill that has been significant in the area for a long time. Both of these places have transmission towers placed on them to help with communications, which is pretty common for area's that rise high over the surrounding territory. This Winter Hill site is a nice find!

 

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10 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

You prefer a literal interpretation and I see something else.

Well, Jon clearly thinks in ADWD that his brothers are "murdered," "beheaded," and "dead."

That's just objective, as flatly stated as anything in the series. We can imagine his knowledge level changing, and the wolfdreams could be a mechanism, but Jon simply doesn't know the truth in the most recent book.

He also doesn't question his wolfdreams; he believes them.  That's plain from this quote:

Quote

He wondered if some part of his dead brothers lived on inside their wolves.

If Jon didn't believe his wolfdreams, he would have no reason at all to think Shaggydog was alive.  He clearly does think that.   Ergo, he believes his wolfdreams... and if he also thinks his brothers are dead, that means his brothers have never once appeared in the wolfdreams.

10 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

the number of "wolves" in the dream totals five (four remained, and one he can no longer sense). Current direwolf count: four. Current Stark wargs (including Jon): five.

I'm afraid this idea -- that Ghost meant Sansa as the fifth packmate -- just doesn't work in context:

Quote

Once they had been six, five whimpering blind in the snow beside their dead mother, sucking cool milk from her hard dead nipples whilst he crawled off alone. Four remained … and one the white wolf could no longer sense.

Unless your position is that Sansa once whimpered blind in the snow beside her dead mother Catelyn, sucking cool milk from Catelyn's hard dead nipples, Ghost can only mean the literal pups, not the Stark kids.

We also know, factually, that the magic of the direwolf connection fails when the Wall is interposed, because when Jon reencounters Ghost in ASOS, he says:

Quote

"Gods, wolf, where have you been?" Jon said when Ghost stopped worrying at his forearm. "I thought you'd died on me, like Robb and Ygritte and all the rest. I've had no sense of you, not since I climbed the Wall, not even in dreams."

This, too, is about as flat and clear as anything in the series. Surely Jon can't be wrong about his own bond, with his own wolf; the Wall blocks such magic.

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2 hours ago, PrettyPig said:
12 hours ago, St Daga said:

My recent search of barrows and cairns and cists lead me all over the British Isles and several of my findings in Heresy 211 lead me to Dartmoor in Devon. This area of moorland reminded me of reading The Hound of the Baskerville's probably twenty years ago. So, I decided to refresh my memory and reread, mostly looking for references to the "hellhound" that was said to be a curse upon the Baskerville family. 

This is good stuff...and totally in line with the ever- growing pile of subtle hints that our very old First Men came from a society of underground dwellers/moon-night-shadow-darkness worshippers.   

I want to come back to Cerberus and the idea of hellhounds guarding the entrance to the Underworld—also returning to the discussion of the TOJ and the idea of sacrificial transformation.  Cerberus stands guard at the far end of the River Styx , but of course those entering the land of the dead must deal with the near end first...and that has a nifty nod in the story too.   Will post from work later.

Looking forward to your thoughts.

There are some interesting nods to Cerberus in the text, not just the three black dogs of House Clegane, but in Hercules labors, when he was to capture Cerberus, the hell hound is often depicted as chained. This brings to mind Fenrir, the chained wolf of Ragnorok. GRRM certainly has given us the concept of a chained wolf/dog in our story.

As to the idea of moon/night/shadow/darkness, this brings to mind the dream that was discussed up thread, with the terminology about the "the cave of night where the sun had hidden". Much of importance might have hidden in caves at times in Westeros, and there is much in the text that hints at tunnels and passages or cave systems that go deep into the earth. Places to seek refuge in times of trouble.

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2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

But I am sure a writer like GRRM would be familiar with the most famous Sherlock homes story. 

I agree. That is why I find some of the imagery in the story so interesting in regards to ASOIAF. But how much is a nod to a famous work of fiction, and how much might be a clue to what GRRM intends in the story? He mixes world myth and history and literature so well, it's hard to know what his overall intention might be. 

 

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15 minutes ago, JNR said:

He also doesn't question his wolfdreams; he believes them.  That's plain from this quote:

Quote

He wondered if some part of his dead brothers lived on inside their wolves.

If Jon didn't believe his wolfdreams, he would have no reason at all to think Shaggydog was alive.  He clearly does think that.   Ergo, he believes his wolfdreams... and if he also thinks his brothers are dead, that means his brothers have never once appeared in the wolfdreams.

10 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

He doesn't question??? The text specifically states that he "wondered". "Wondered" in no sense does this word mean "believes". :lol:

 

15 minutes ago, JNR said:
10 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

the number of "wolves" in the dream totals five (four remained, and one he can no longer sense). Current direwolf count: four. Current Stark wargs (including Jon): five.

I'm afraid this idea -- that Ghost meant Sansa as the fifth packmate -- just doesn't work in context:

Quote

Once they had been six, five whimpering blind in the snow beside their dead mother, sucking cool milk from her hard dead nipples whilst he crawled off alone. Four remained … and one the white wolf could no longer sense.

Unless your position is that Sansa once whimpered blind in the snow beside her dead mother Catelyn, sucking cool milk from Catelyn's hard dead nipples, Ghost can only mean the literal pups, not the Stark kids.

Once they had been six: Jon, Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, and Rickon.

Five whimpering blind in the snow: Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, and Rickon.

He crawled off alone: Jon

Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, and Rickon were "blind" in the "snow" beside their "dead" mother Catelyn. "Blind" means their third eye wasn't open, and "dead" means that Catelyn never had the ability to open a third eye in the first place. She's not a skinchanger. "Snow" is in reference to the territory under House Stark, just like "Snow" is the last name for bastards born in that area. Jon too was "blind" even though he was off crawling alone. Catelyn isn't his mother, so he was alone in the snow.

There is no way that this can be explained literally, because at the time of this dream only four direwolves exist, and the dream refers to five human-direwolves. Four and one equals five. There's no getting around this. You cannot claim that the one the white wolf could no longer sense is Bran, because the white wolf specifically said he could sense his brother that smelled of summer on the colder side of the Wall. You might theoretically say that the one he could no longer sense was Grey Wind, but then you'd have to provide evidence that not only was he still alive, there'd be a reason why he couldn't be "sensed".

 

16 minutes ago, JNR said:

We also know, factually, that the magic of the direwolf connection fails when the Wall is interposed, because when Jon reencounters Ghost in ASOS, he says:

Quote

"Gods, wolf, where have you been?" Jon said when Ghost stopped worrying at his forearm. "I thought you'd died on me, like Robb and Ygritte and all the rest. I've had no sense of you, not since I climbed the Wall, not even in dreams."

This, too, is about as flat and clear as anything in the series. Surely Jon can't be wrong about his own bond, with his own wolf; the Wall blocks such magic.

To reiterate - Jon can sense Summer through the Wall. He's misinterpreting the signs in his dreams, just as Melisandre misinterprets the flames. Jon is the white wolf, and if he's dreaming about himself as a white wolf, he's not actively skinchanging Ghost. If Jon, as the white wolf, sensed his brother who smells of summer on the north side of the Wall where it's colder, then he obviously CAN SENSE through the Wall. He may not be able to actively SKINCHANGE through the Wall, but he can definitely SENSE. 

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1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

The Bael the Bard story doesn't necessarily have to be Stark incest to work. It could simply be that Bael was a wildling of First Men descent, and that his blood is part of the Stark family tree. And if it turns out that Lyanna's child was Bael's - all that means is that the father is also of First Men blood.

As for the Nights King - I do believe he was brought down by his brother, but "brother" can mean more than one thing, because Jon Snow and Ramsay Snow are brothers by bastardy and share the bastard last name of the same region. I believe you yourself pointed this out a long time ago once. 

Yes, both of these things can be true...”brother” can also be in the fraternal order sense rather than the blood relation sense (“brothers “ of the NW) .   But, I think we get some pretty strong indications in each story that the main characters were bona fide Starks.   Brother against Brother, Father against Son.

Rhat makes it sound better, anyway, so I’m sticking to it!

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3 hours ago, St Daga said:

This is very interesting. It fits my thoughts that Winterfell earned it's name for being a Hill of Winter, hill being a fjell or fell in old norse. Fjall or fell meaning mountain in old norse, and fell being known as a mountain or high hill in old English. The place names surrounding it, such as Bolton and Storm Hill do nod at inspiring GRRM.

An interesting thing to me is that these places you mention are in Lancashire, which historically is the seat of House Lancaster, which is certainly something that has inspired part of GRRM's story, as fa as the War of the Roses goes. The story never mentions what kind of stone that Casterly Rock is carved out of, but I find it curious the type of rock isn't mentioned.

The recent reading I have been doing has be convinced that area's of moorland play a part in the story around Winterfell, and perhaps around the tower of joy, whatever that was. I am not convinced it was in the south, as we are led to believe, although there could be moorland all over Westeros. I have recently become interested in the idea that the tower of joy wasn't a tower at all, but a tor. A tor being a high area of exposed granite in the moorlands. Some of these very much resemble tower's from a distance. Ned says that Rhaegar called "it" the "tower of joy", but perhaps it really was a tor that resembled a tower? And known by a different name by locals.

The only tor named in our story is House Jordayne of the Tor, which is a nod to Robert Jordan and Tor publishing, at least as I understand it, and GRRM has placed The Tor in Dorne, actually south of where the toj lies on maps. Even though House Jordayne doesn't get a text mention until Clash, it is named in the Game appendix, along with House Wyl known for it's blackadder sigil. I think these houses are more than just a nod to popular culture, but I could be wrong about that.

I am drawn to the idea of a granite tor or at least granite as a source being near Winterfell because Winterfell is the only castle in our story built of granite, and most castles were built with stone that was near them in locality. It's not easy to move blocks of granite. There is granite in Winterfell and there is granite in the crypts of Winterfell for the statues, so the castle must lie near an area of granite or a quarry. Tor's can be made of other substances, but most commonly are granite and rise out of moorland. The British isles have several area's of moorland, Dartmoor and Exmoor are the areas that I looked into the most, but for relatively small area of the world, the British isles contain 15% of the world moorland, which is significant in the overall landscape of the British isles.

I did come across a place in Ireland known as Corn Hill, or Cairn Hill, or Carn Clonhugh, which sounds similar to the Winter Hill you mention and is noted for bronze age cairns.  It is a relatively high hill that has been significant in the area for a long time. Both of these places have transmission towers placed on them to help with communications, which is pretty common for area's that rise high over the surrounding territory. This Winter Hill site is a nice find!

 

Some cool pictures of tors in Google; they really look like towers.

If you are looking for houses linked to tors, I can think of three: House Westerling with their Crag (crag being a rock outcrop somehow similar to a tor) and House Lannister and House Casterly with Casterly Rock. Casterly Rock sounding very similar to Castle Rock, the crag where Edinburgh Castle is built.

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13 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Some cool pictures of tors in Google; they really look like towers.

If you are looking for houses linked to tors, I can think of three: House Westerling with their Crag (crag being an rock outcrop somehow similar to a tor) and House Lannister and House Casterly with Casterly Rock. Casterly Rock sounding very similar to Castle Rock, the crag where Edinburgh Castle is built.

Actually a connection between a tor and Lannister would tie into my belief that the Lannisters kidnapped Lyanna and framed Rhaegar.

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21 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Actually a connection between a tor and Lannister would tie into my belief that the Lannisters kidnapped Lyanna and framed Rhaegar.

Yes, I was thinking about that theory while I typed. The Westerlands sound like the perfect geography for tors, crags, rocky hills and caves to hide:

Quote

THE WESTERLANDS ARE a place of rugged hills and rolling plains, of misty dales and craggy shorelines, a place of blue lakes and sparkling rivers and fertile fields, of broadleaf forests that teem with game of every sort, where half hidden doors in the sides of wooded hills open onto labyrinthine caves that wend their way through darkness to reveal unimaginable wonders and vast treasures deep beneath the earth.

Hopefully GRRM will give us a tour of the Westerlands in the next book.

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1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

There is no way that this can be explained literally, because at the time of this dream only four direwolves exist, and the dream refers to five human-direwolves. Four and one equals five. There's no getting around this. You cannot claim that the one the white wolf could no longer sense is Bran, because the white wolf specifically said he could sense his brother that smelled of summer on the colder side of the Wall. You might theoretically say that the one he could no longer sense was Grey Wind, but then you'd have to provide evidence that not only was he still alive, there'd be a reason why he couldn't be "sensed".

I'm not saying that there isn't possibly a symbolic connection with the fate of the wolves and the fate of the Stark children as you suggest, but I think JNR is also correct in that Ghost or Ghost/Jon is talking about the actual direwolves, or at the very least we can't discount this.

Quote

Four remained … and one the white wolf could no longer sense.

Ghost is counting himself among the four that remained.  So Ghost, Nymeria, Shaggydog, and Summer.  And out of these four, Ghost could not sense Summer.  And while he seems aware that Summer is still alive, he can't look through Summer's eyes and see what he's currently doing like he can with Nymeria and Shaggydog.

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43 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Actually a connection between a tor and Lannister would tie into my belief that the Lannisters kidnapped Lyanna and framed Rhaegar.

Can you explain how that connection works? Also how does Rhaegar get framed for it? I figured he had to work with someone, but I always had the sense that he was involved. 

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1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

I'm not saying that there isn't possibly a symbolic connection with the fate of the wolves and the fate of the Stark children as you suggest, but I think JNR is also correct in that Ghost or Ghost/Jon is talking about the actual direwolves, or at the very least we can't discount this.

Ghost is counting himself among the four that remained.  So Ghost, Nymeria, Shaggydog, and Summer.  And out of these four, Ghost could not sense Summer.  And while he seems aware that Summer is still alive, he can't look through Summer's eyes and see what he's currently doing like he can with Nymeria and Shaggydog.

I agree

Ghost counts five sucking at their mother's dead teats, while he crawls away = 6

Two of them are dead: Lady and Greywind = 4 [only one of the children of Winterfell is dead]

Ghost can't sense one of his surviving siblings, Summer, who is beyond the Wall. I don't have it to hand but there is an SSM where GRRM speaks of Jon's inability to communicate with Ghost when they are separated by the Wall as a small but significant plot device.

 

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14 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

When you say the wolf dream is essentially a double POV, you are closer to my assertions, but then you go back to claiming the dream is literal again. How can you claim it is literal when the first dream was obviously that of Jon dreaming that he was a white wolf? Lets reexamine the first dream:

I don't know how to be more explicit than "wolf dreams are a literal experience, but there might also be added layers of the mystical and prophetic;" I'm saying it's literal because its surface elements are literal. Jon is warged into Ghost during the ADWD dream--the aCoK dream is a bit more open to debate, because it (to me) feels more green dream adjacent. For example, Bran literally wargs into Summer during wolf dreams, but he also dreams of the crow, and is viewed by others variously as a wolf, a winged wolf (maybe), or a weirwood, so some of these things have to be taken on a dream by dream basis.

In any case, what you call evidence is not evidence, it's an attempt to hammer the text into fitting a new shape, when what is already self-evident - that this is a wolf dream - requires no leaps whatsoever. Shaggydog, the black brother, hunting on Skagos in the middle of the night speaks for itself, while a five year old Rickon murdering a man (who is represented by a goat) is a forced reading--reverse engineered as a part of a piecemeal search for symbols that is removed from the holistic significance of the scene, a scene which is already interesting because of what it reveals to us about Ghost; it doesn't demand a 'twist,' and the twist is less interesting than what it replaces.
 

14 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

No big whoop. I see a double meaning, or rather something closer to metaphorical. I understand that you all think I'm going overboard on the metaphors and symbolism, but I actually think GRRM has written ASOIAF in this manner on purpose - for what reason I cannot say.

This isn't what's happening. I mentioned the potential for double meaning several times, and you're disagreeing with that, because you're not actually talking about double meaning--you're talking about plot substitution. It's not as though there's this vast gulf in interpretative process where I'm talking about plot, and you're performing Lacanian literary criticism; we're both talking about plot.

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3 hours ago, Tucu said:

Some cool pictures of tors in Google; they really look like towers.

If you are looking for houses linked to tors, I can think of three: House Westerling with their Crag (crag being a rock outcrop somehow similar to a tor) and House Lannister and House Casterly with Casterly Rock. Casterly Rock sounding very similar to Castle Rock, the crag where Edinburgh Castle is built.

Yes, some pictures of tor's look very much like Towers. And while watching multiple videos on Dartmoor, it struck me how much tor sounds like tower. It Welch a tor is twr! Tower without any vowels. And I am curious what kind of rock that Casterly Rock is carved out of. The text never says, and that is odd. Just that it's huge, and full of caves and tunnels.

I had not thought of House Westerling with the Crag, but that also fit's. It's considered a ruin of a castle now, but what was it like 15 years ago? And of course this is where Robb is seduced (offered comfort ?) by Jeyne and messes up his whole campaign. There is perhaps something more symbolic in this location that I have ever thought about. 

In my research, most tor's are made of granite outcroppings, which is why I am curious about some area in the north, near Winterfell. Granite in the text is almost always in regards to Winterfell's walls and towers or the statues in the crypts. Exceptions to this, which might be important, are

1) that the middle wall of Qarth is made of grey granite, with war like scenes carved in the granite

2)when Jon is climbing in the Frostfangs, the stone is noted to be black granite,

3) Bran and co move past a granite upthrust the size of Winterfell when fleeing north after they have fled Winterfell,

4) just before Jon climbs the wall with the wildlings, that rock is noted to be granite,

5) there is a granite boulder in the Iron Islands that the Damphair preaches beside, 

6) the titan of Braavos is made of black granite.

7) Arya also reports hills of granite built in Braavos, but I don't know if she means buildings or what.

8) the ruins of Hollard Castle are made of grey granite, three towers rising from the ruins

Of 27 granite references in the text, 19 refer to Winterfell specifically. None are in the Westerlands. Although in my research, I have found that tor's can be made of  schist, dacite, dolerite and course sandstone (which is how my headcanon views Casterly Rock) but the majority of tor's are formed of granite. Tor's are known as castle koppie or kopje by geomorpholigists. Something about these other names seems like it should ring a bell, but I am drawing a blank.

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Actually a connection between a tor and Lannister would tie into my belief that the Lannisters kidnapped Lyanna and framed Rhaegar.

I have been thinking about this, too. But so far I can't link a tor like structure to the westerlands, unless it is Casterly Rock itself. @Tucu did mention the Crag, so it's possible there are structures in the Westerlands that could fit this idea. Perhaps the whole of the Westerlands will fit this geography?

3 hours ago, Tucu said:
3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Actually a connection between a tor and Lannister would tie into my belief that the Lannisters kidnapped Lyanna and framed Rhaegar.

Yes, I was thinking about that theory while I typed. The Westerlands sound like the perfect geography for tors, crags, rocky hills and caves to hide:

Quote

THE WESTERLANDS ARE a place of rugged hills and rolling plains, of misty dales and craggy shorelines, a place of blue lakes and sparkling rivers and fertile fields, of broadleaf forests that teem with game of every sort, where half hidden doors in the sides of wooded hills open onto labyrinthine caves that wend their way through darkness to reveal unimaginable wonders and vast treasures deep beneath the earth.

Hopefully GRRM will give us a tour of the Westerlands in the next book.

Those are great connections, and I had not considered the Westerlands, and I do hope we get some more information on the west at some point in the story. It is an area that is noted for it's mining capabilities, which indicates rock and tunnels and passages, as well. Where do dead Lannister's get buried?  

 

 

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8 minutes ago, St Daga said:


@Tucu

Those are great connections, and I had not considered the Westerlands, and I do hope we get some more information on the west at some point in the story. It is an area that is noted for it's mining capabilities, which indicates rock and tunnels and passages, as well. Where do dead Lannister's get buried? 

They are buried within the Rock in a section called the Hall of Heroes that sounds similar to the crypts in Winterfell

Quote

"His bones should be interred beneath the Rock, in the Hall of Heroes," Lady Genna declared. "Where was he laid to rest?"

Quote

The Lords of Casterly Rock have gathered many treasures over the centuries, and the sights of the Rock—especially the Golden Gallery, with its gilded ornaments and walls, and the Hall of Heroes where the costly armor worn by a hundred Lannister knights, lords, and kings stand eternal guard—are justly famed throughout the Seven Kingdoms, even in lands beyond the narrow sea.

 

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8 minutes ago, Tucu said:

They are buried within the Rock in a section called the Hall of Heroes that sounds similar to the crypts in Winterfell

 

Well Lann the Clever was a First Man wasn't he? More of a First Man Demi-god if I remember right. It would make sense for two first men castles (fortifications, etc.) to share similar architecture. As for the base of the Rock, whenever I read it in the books, I think of Gibraltar and it's fortifications built into the sides of a mountain. It wouldn't be terribly difficult, especially considering that some rock materials are naturally porus and can easily make caves. 

 

I think we will find that the original survivors of the first Long Night survived by hiding underground. Furthermore, I think the First Men were able to do this because they took the caves from the CotF. The Rainwood isn't far from Storms End and we know there is a CofT dwelling in the Rainwood. Do we know of any other CofT dwelling sites south of the Wall?

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