Heresy 212 The Wolves

[Frey family reunion]

12 hours ago, St Daga said:

But, it is a bit odd that Grey Wind does have no problem with the Twins the first time they are there, though. If the wolf has a knowledge of future events, why doesn't he have a "feeling" about the Twins and the Frey's the first time around? So, while the Red Wedding foreshadowed in Storm, there seems to be none of this weird direwolf "premonition' toward the Frey's in Game or even Clash, which is rather mysterious?

 

4 hours ago, SirArthur said:

So, why is Summer barking at Tyrion ? Did Tyrion send the catspawn ? Unless he has memory loss I guess not.

 

I think the simplest solution (putting aside my telepathic Frey theory for a moment) is that the wolves are empathic.  They picked up on Robb's hostility towards Tyrion at Winterfell, when Robb thought that Tyrion might have had something to do with Bran's fall.  And at the Twins, Greywind picked up on the hostility emanating from the Freys.  The four Freys that greeted them were all planning on murdering Robb at the time.  That wasn't true back in AGOT, the last time Grey Wind was present at the Twins.  Or in ACOK when Grey Wind would have been around other Freys.

Now having said that, going back to the scene with Tyrion, it is odd that the first Direwolf to react negatively to Tyrion was Summer.  You would think that Grey Wind would have been the first wolf to have picked up Robb's hostility to Tyrion.  But perhaps, Bran's hostility might have been pretty hot at the time too, because the wolves came in right after Tyrion says:

Quote

“Your brother Jon asked it of me. And I have a tender spot in my heart for cripples and bastards and broken things.” Tyrion Lannister placed a hand over his heart and grinned.

And while Tyrion was trying to help Bran out, Bran really hates being called a cripple, as an earlier exchange made clear.

Quote

“Nonsense,” said Lannister. “With the right horse and the right saddle, even a cripple can ride.”

The word was a knife through Bran’s heart. He felt tears come unbidden to his eyes. “I’m not a cripple!”

“Then I am not a dwarf,” the dwarf said with a twist of his mouth. “My father will rejoice to hear it.” Greyjoy laughed.

 

[Brad Stark]

I don't buy the wolves being empathic explaining everything.  Ghost likes Mel more than Jon and no one else freaks out at the Fist. 

[Frey family reunion]

29 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

I don't buy the wolves being empathic.  Ghost likes Mel more than Jon and no one else freaks out at the Fist. 

I think we're comparing apples to oranges here.  What does Mel and Ghost have to do with being empathic?  There was no hostility from Melisandre towards Jon that I'm aware of.  I think the strangest part of Mel and Ghost, was Jon losing his "link" to Ghost when Melisandre was around. 

And as for the Fist, Ghost's reaction is different to the angry reactions of Greywind at the Twins and the wolves' reaction to Tyrion.  Ghost's reaction was more in line with the agitation he was expressing before the wight attacked the Lord Commander.

But there is plenty of evidence that the wolves' can pick up and sense emotion, especially the emotion of the people they've bonded with.  We have Ghost reacting angrily to Tyrion as they travel to the Wall, which coincides with Tyrion pissing Jon off.  And we have Summer and Shaggydog chasing the Reeds up a tree, when they agitated Bran.

[St Daga]

7 hours ago, SirArthur said:

So, why is Summer barking at Tyrion ? Did Tyrion send the catspawn ? Unless he has memory loss I guess not.

If Tyrion's own memory didn't seem certain that he didn't do it, I would totally think it was him. And I still have a bit of that doubt about the unreliable narrator rolling around in my head, and think it's (very slightly) possible it was Tyrion. And there is something "off" in his story about Tysha, so I have wondered what he is capable of. After all, he loved Shae but still killed her.

 

[JNR]

18 hours ago, SirArthur said:

In my first read I just took Lady as very trusting towards Ned in that scene.

I agree, she is trusting... just as Sansa is trusting when, later in the same book, she goes to Cersei and spills her guts about her father's plans (one of the worst decisions made by any character in any of the books).

The direwolves can't see the future any better than human beings can, and like human beings, they seem to vary quite a bit in talent.  Lady is the worst, IMO, and Ghost, based on his prescient awareness of what was going to happen on the Fist, may well be the best.

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I think the simplest solution (putting aside my telepathic Frey theory for a moment) is that the wolves are empathic. 

Sure!  I think that's so clear as to be irrefutable. 

It happens constantly in all the books; we know that the Starks and the wolves share a psychic link; we know from Varamyr that the bond is mutually influential, too.  The warg and the wolf will both shape the other.

Furthermore, we know that the direwolves also have a psychic link with each other.  From Ghost's POV we're told:

Quote

Once they had been six, five whimpering blind in the snow beside their dead mother, sucking cool milk from her hard dead nipples whilst he crawled off alone. Four remained … and one the white wolf could no longer sense.

Notice this is a power the Stark kids do not share.  They can't sense each other, as the direwolves do.

So it isn't a question of whether the direwolves have extraordinary psychic powers.  We know they do.  It's only a question of whether their powers also include a preternatural sense of future danger.

It seems evident to me they do, to some limited extent.  Empathy by itself -- whether with the Starks or each other -- doesn't explain Summer howling at Bran, since Bran himself feels no danger and instead is just climbing like he always does.  He feels puzzled at Summer's howling.  There's no emotional echo happening there.  

Empathy also doesn't explain Ghost's attitude about the Fist well before the attack there... a thing that puzzles Jon at the time (Jon having no sense at all that there will be a future attack). 

So both of these events suggest something else is at work.  Though it's also clear none of the direwolves have a perfect awareness of the future; they are more like Jaime, going back to rescue Brienne based on a broad impression, or the Ghost of High Heart, who knew certain things would happen, but didn't specify places or names. 

Foreknowledge in these books is never crisp and tidy, like a mathematical calculation, but more like a poem -- suggestive, but open to interpretation.

[St Daga]

20 hours ago, JNR said:

On 8/15/2018 at 9:32 AM, St Daga said:

We don't have any idea how often Bran climbed

Seriously, now.

Yes, I think it's worth at least looking at. Bran never tells us in his thoughts that he was a daily climber or weekly climber. In his very first POV, we would never even know that climbing seems so integral a part of his life. 

Also, we don't know how long the Stark's have had their wolf pups at this point. It's certainly possible that it's been months, and the yet unnamed wolf pup has watched Bran climb a dozen times, but there is nothing in the text to use as proof of this.

20 hours ago, JNR said:

This demonstrates Bran's climbing was not just ongoing, and constant, but so strongly a part of his personality it couldn't be defeated by any amount of parental disapproval.  

As we read above, Bran climbed so often, he wasn't even sure if he'd managed to keep his mother from knowing he was doing it.

On 8/15/2018 at 9:32 AM, St Daga said:

He hadn't been up to the broken tower for weeks with everything that had happened, and this might be his last chance.

All this shows is that Bran hadn't climbed that particular tower recently.

Meanwhile Winterfell is gigantic, Bran was a constant climber, and certainly Bran was accompanied by Summer on a routine basis by this point in the story.  So the concept that Bran had never before climbed in front of Summer seems a doubtful one to me.

I am not sure how any of this proves that Bran was a constant climber before his fall. He could have been, but this chapter is the only time we have an example of Bran climbing, the rest is memory and dreams. Still, I like to think I can trust Bran's thoughts on this, so it's possible he has climbed since he got the pup, but didn't bring the direwolf with him, I suppose.

But you could very well be correct and it's just that Bran hasn't climbed this particular route in a while. And if it's the case that Summer has been with him before (although there is no textual evidence for this), then we need to look at what is different this time? If that is the case, then two things seem possible. It's the Lannister's and their activity that are important, or it's the tower itself that is important. 

 

[St Daga]

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

16 hours ago, St Daga said:

But, it is a bit odd that Grey Wind does have no problem with the Twins the first time they are there, though. If the wolf has a knowledge of future events, why doesn't he have a "feeling" about the Twins and the Frey's the first time around? So, while the Red Wedding foreshadowed in Storm, there seems to be none of this weird direwolf "premonition' toward the Frey's in Game or even Clash, which is rather mysterious?

 

7 hours ago, SirArthur said:

So, why is Summer barking at Tyrion ? Did Tyrion send the catspawn ? Unless he has memory loss I guess not.

 

I think the simplest solution (putting aside my telepathic Frey theory for a moment) is that the wolves are empathic.  They picked up on Robb's hostility towards Tyrion at Winterfell, when Robb thought that Tyrion might have had something to do with Bran's fall.  And at the Twins, Greywind picked up on the hostility emanating from the Freys.  The four Freys that greeted them were all planning on murdering Robb at the time.  That wasn't true back in AGOT, the last time Grey Wind was present at the Twins.  Or in ACOK when Grey Wind would have been around other Freys.

Now having said that, going back to the scene with Tyrion, it is odd that the first Direwolf to react negatively to Tyrion was Summer.  You would think that Grey Wind would have been the first wolf to have picked up Robb's hostility to Tyrion.  But perhaps, Bran's hostility might have been pretty hot at the time too, because the wolves came in right after Tyrion

Ghost is the first direwolf to have an issue with Tyrion, and this happens twice before the incident with Summer, Shaggy and Grey Wind back at Winterfell. He is at first unsure of him, and a second time he knocked him into the dirt. Now, I know it can be argued that it was Jon's thoughts that prompted this behavior, but that is only one possibility.

If we are looking at the wolves as being capable of actions and thoughtful behavior on their own, then perhaps it was Ghost who has a problem with Tyrion, not Jon. And it's Summer, Grey Wind and Shaggy that have a problem with Tyrion. Why would this be? Jaime and Cersei are the ones who have caused problems, but Tyrion seems to be the catalyst in drawing the direwolves attention. Something seems off to me.

As you point out, it is Summer who reacts to Tyrion first. If it's Robb's anger the wolves are keyed on, it seems like Grey Wind should be the problem. But it's Summer. 

And Tyrion thinks if the wolves chasing him naked through the forest, which is in Tyrion's first POV and after Bran's fall when he hears a wolf howling. It all seems like it hints at Tyrion having some destiny with these wolves. Except his own thoughts seem to clear him of guilt, so I don't deny I find it all rather confusing. Cersei does seem uneasy with the wolves, but Jaime doesn't seem bothered by them, and he is the one who probably should have some sense of guilt (even though guilt isn't really Jaime's thing, except perhaps about Rhaegar's children).

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

But there is plenty of evidence that the wolves' can pick up and sense emotion, especially the emotion of the people they've bonded with.  We have Ghost reacting angrily to Tyrion as they travel to the Wall, which coincides with Tyrion pissing Jon off.  And we have Summer and Shaggydog chasing the Reeds up a tree, when they agitated Bran.

These are two good examples of what seems like the children controlling the direwolves actions. Especially the one with Summer and Jojen and Meera. I am less convinced about Ghost and Jon's reaction to Tyrion on the way to the wall, and who was causing what. But this explanation of the wolves picking up on the Stark children's moods and reacting accordingly does make sense, I agree, but ...

But what about Rickon and Shaggy? If Shaggy is controlled by Rickon, what problem does Rickon have with Gage and Mikken? That is very unclear to me. Nymeria seems to be protecting Arya from harm at the Trident, so perhaps it's just that easy of an explanation, but is it too easy?

When it comes to the wolves and the Stark kids, who is in charge of whom? Perhaps it's symbiotic, and so the emotions and control can go both ways, depending on the situation?

[Frey family reunion]

17 minutes ago, JNR said:

So it isn't a question of whether the direwolves have extraordinary psychic powers.  We know they do.  It's only a question of whether their powers also include a preternatural sense of future danger.

I don't disagree.  But like I stated earlier, different situations call for different analysis.  Tyrion's situation is pretty simple.  I think both Robb and Bran were extremely hostile with him when the direwolves came into the Hall.  Robb started out hostile because of his suspicions of the Lannister's role in Bran's fall, while Bran was probably getting upset about Tyrion constantly calling him a cripple.  Summer picks up on Bran's hostility, while Grey Wind probably picks up on Summer and Robb's hostility.  In the meantime Shaggy Dog picks up on Summer and Grey Wind's cues, while seemingly having a pretty quick trigger of his own.

I doubt that Grey Wind's reaction to the Freys at the Twins deals with a precognition of events.  Otherwise Grey Wind would have been agitated during the trip to the Twins.  Instead he only reacts after coming into contact with the welcome committee of the four Freys.  So it doesn't take a leap to come to the conclusion that Grey Wind may be picking up on the hostility that the Freys have towards Robb.  After all they are planning on murdering Robb.  Even normal real life dogs can pick up on non verbal cues that humans can't.

I agree that Summer's reaction to Bran's climb is different.  Bran is enjoying himself until Summer starts to howl.  It could be as simple as Summer had never seen Bran climb before, and he's exhibiting anxiety over that.  Or it could be explained via the paranormal.  That Summer is picking up on WeirBran's presence, and picking up on WeirBran's anxiety he may be feeling over watching the events leading up to his fall.

I think Ghost's reaction may have to do with the Fist itself.  And Ghost isn't alone in this.  Sam's ravens appear to become extremely agitated as well when they're brought into the Fist. 

Quote

Jon heard the ravens before he saw them.  Some were calling his name.  The birds were not shy when it came to making noise.

They feel it too.

 

[Frey family reunion]

3 minutes ago, St Daga said:

As you point out, it is Summer who reacts to Tyrion first. If it's Robb's anger the wolves are keyed on, it seems like Grey Wind should be the problem. But it's Summer.

Like I stated, the answer could be pretty simple.  Tyrion had just called Bran a cripple, again.  And Bran hates being called a cripple.  Summer's reaction comes from Bran's hostility to Tryion, not Robb's.

[St Daga]

32 minutes ago, JNR said:

Summer howling at Bran, since Bran himself feels no danger and instead is just climbing like he always does.  He feels puzzled at Summer's howling.  There's no emotional echo happening there.  

Bran feels strangely chilled by Summer's behavior. It reminds me of this:

Quote

Jon felt a coldness pass right through him. AGOT-Jon I

It's possible the feeling that Jon and Bran get are not related to the direwolves at this time, but something else making them feel this way.

35 minutes ago, JNR said:

Foreknowledge in these books is never crisp and tidy, like a mathematical calculation, but more like a poem -- suggestive, but open to interpretation.

Very well said! And GRRM is so crafty with allowing us to believe in implications that I find I trust almost nothing anymore!

[St Daga]

4 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Like I stated, the answer could be pretty simple.  Tyrion had just called Bran a cripple, again.  And Bran hates being called a cripple.  Summer's reaction comes from Bran's hostility to Tryion, not Robb's.

Yes, this is possible. But Bran tells us in his thoughts that he liked Tyrion. Of course, this does happen in thoughts after Tyrion gifts Bran with the saddle design, so that could explain a change of heart about Tyrion.

 

[Brad Stark]

Summer howling is foreshadowing Brian's fall.  This could be Summer knowing about the fall and either trying to warn Bran or just being upset.  But in real life, dogs and wolves howl seemingly at random, and there could be no deeper thought on GRRM's part. 

[Brad Stark]

Any relevance to howling during the climb, as opposed to barking or growling?  Howling is long range communication.  Could Summer have been calling for help, or trying to warn someone malicious to Bran that they were intruding on his territory? 

[Frey family reunion]

4 hours ago, St Daga said:

Ghost is the first direwolf to have an issue with Tyrion, and this happens twice before the incident with Summer, Shaggy and Grey Wind back at Winterfell. He is at first unsure of him, and a second time he knocked him into the dirt. Now, I know it can be argued that it was Jon's thoughts that prompted this behavior, but that is only one possibility.

If we are looking at the wolves as being capable of actions and thoughtful behavior on their own, then perhaps it was Ghost who has a problem with Tyrion, not Jon. And it's Summer, Grey Wind and Shaggy that have a problem with Tyrion.

It may be that Ghost is just picking up on Jon's internal feelings about Tyrion.  Tyrion's appearance can apparently be disquieting and unsettling to people.  Unlike the HBO show, Tyrion isnt' good looking.  He's extraordinarily ugly, with mismatched eyes and mismatched hair.  His penchant for not following rules of social nicety can also be a bit off putting.  And his relationship with Jon starts off pretty awkwardly when he calls Jon a bastard (which is mirrored in the scene in the Great Hall when he calls Bran a cripple).

Ghost only attacks Tyrion when Tyrion taunts Jon about how bad the Night's Watch is:

Quote

"Stop it!" the boy screamed.  He took a step forward, his hands coiling into fists, close to tears. 

Now compare this to Bran's reaction to Tyrion calling him a cripple soon before the Summer and company attack Tyrion:

Quote

The word was a knife through Bran’s heart. He felt tears come unbidden to his eyes. “I’m not a cripple!”

But after Jon starts to get to know Tyrion at the Wall and their relationship starts to grow, Ghost doesn't show the same antipathy towards Tyrion.

Quote

"This is the last place I would have expected to be seen," Tyrion admitted.  "I was captured by a whim.  If  I touch Ghost, will he chew my hand off?"

"Not with me here," Jon promised.

Tyrion scratched the white wolf behind the ears.  The red eyes watched him impassively.

 

[Melifeather]

On 8/15/2018 at 6:42 PM, St Daga said:

I am just saying the foreshadowing was often and early in the first book. The direwolves and the Lannisters. And when you look back, GRRM wasn't really being that subtle about it. I am not saying anything about the red wedding, only that of all the examples that I used, Grey Wind's reaction at the Twins (in Storm, as he has no reaction when they are at the twins in Game) is the only incident that comes a bit later in the story. 

But, it is a bit odd that Grey Wind does have no problem with the Twins the first time they are there, though. If the wolf has a knowledge of future events, why doesn't he have a "feeling" about the Twins and the Frey's the first time around? So, while the Red Wedding foreshadowed in Storm, there seems to be none of this weird direwolf "premonition' toward the Frey's in Game or even Clash, which is rather mysterious? Did something happen that changed the wheel, and then the Red Wedding happened, when it didn't happen previous times that the wheel went around?

 

No, but I thought you implied it by giving the wolves knowledge in regards to Lyanna's situation specifically. I believe it is Voice that thinks that Lyanna sent the direwolf pup's to the Stark children through the weirnet.

But I am still not sold that the Stark's are the goal in fixing the wheel of time. They might be, but the Lannister's might be as well. Until we have a conclusion to this story, I think it's hard to determine something like this. We don't know what the fix might be, if there needs to be a fix at all.

My understanding is that Leaf was talking about magic and beasts when she said the direwolves would outlast them all. She is talking about the CotF, the "great" lions of the western hills, the unicorns, the mammoths, the giants; mythical beasts. There is no place for them in the world that man has built. So, it seems to me that the direwolves will not outlast mankind. But reading through the lines, does she mean the direwolves as physical beasts, or does she mean the Stark's as well? That's the mystery in her statements, at least for me.

 

 

I don't give the direwolves as much credit as some. I think the wolves pickup on subtle clues like any wild animal does - things like scent and sounds, and they pickup on the feelings of the people they're bonded with, but I don't think they are logical thinkers like humans, nor do I think they have any special magical gifts. The wolves don't actively warg their human. Sure, the human picks up wolf-like characteristics and the wolves tend to reflect their human's personality, but that's about it. If they sense danger it's a response to the mixed signals coming in. The scents and smells added to how their human is feeling at that moment. People aren't always aware of what their intuitions are telling them, but i think the wolves are picking up on that human intuition.

Regarding the wheel of time....the situations are slightly different each time, because the people affected are different, and after the wheel reversed the results were inverted or "undone".

I view each turn of the wheel as a separate "game", and the people on the wheel as "players".  It's like a giant game of cyvasse. The board gets set up, the wheel turns, the same circumstances play out with different players, what happens to the players has happened before, and the results are similar to what has happened in previous "games". That was until the wheel reversed and caused inversions.

Robb's red wedding massacre was a repeat of his mother's experiences during a previous game. Recall that Robb was betrothed to a Frey before he married Jeyne - just as Catelyn was betrothed to Brandon before Ned.  During Catelyn's game she survived, but her betrothed and future father in law were executed. During Robb's game, he died, but his betrothed and future mother in law lived. 

Both Catelyn's and Robb's games are a repeat of Tywin's game. He tried to betroth Cersei to Rhaegar before Robert. Aerys is slain and Rhaegar is killed at the Trident. Rhaegar’s wife and Robert’s betrothed are killed. 

An even earlier game, Tywin massacred the Tarbecks and Reynes. His sister, Genna was betrothed to Emmon Frey, and Tywin to Joanna. Not sure how this game avoided the one player two betrothals though.

Four separate games, different players, but with similar circumstances such as the two marriage proposals for one player in each game. There's a water element in each as well as shocking multiple deaths.

Tywin drowned the Reynes out of existance. Catelyn's betrothed, Brandon, fought and forced Littlefinger into the river. And Robb was killed at the Twins - which spans the Green Fork of the Trident. 

After the wheel of time is reversed, another game gets setup. New group of players, similar circumstances, but some things get reversed! The element of water shows up again as Doran's Water Gardens - where children from many families can go and live and play safely. Doran is Tywin and Arianne is the player betrothed to be married - first to Viserys, and next, Doran hopes, to fAegon. The water element so far is one of peace and safety.

Tywin’s first hope (Rhaegar) for Cersei is killed, and Cersei contributed to Robert’s death. 

Doran’s first hope (Viserys) for Arianne is killed, so will Arianne’s fate be the same as Cersei’s? Will she marry fAegon only to contribute to his death? Or will she avoid marriage, saving fAegon’s life only to end up being the one dead?

[Melifeather]

On 8/16/2018 at 10:37 AM, JNR said:

Quote

Once they had been six, five whimpering blind in the snow beside their dead mother, sucking cool milk from her hard dead nipples whilst he crawled off alone. Four remained … and one the white wolf could no longer sense.

Notice this is a power the Stark kids do not share.  They can't sense each other, as the direwolves do.

I actually disagree with this, because of Jon's dream. Jon had a dream that he was Ghost. He wasn't skinchanging Ghost - he saw himself as a white wolf in his dream, because later on in the dream when Sapling Bran touches his forehead to open his third eye, he wakes up inside Ghost looking down on the wildling camp. While Jon was sleeping and dreaming about being Ghost, Ghost was walking through the forest looking for food and saw the wildling camp. Furthermore, in Jon's dream it's night, and when he wakes up inside Ghost it's daylight.

[JNR]

23 hours ago, St Daga said:

I am not sure how any of this proves that Bran was a constant climber before his fall.

I think the evidence is mighty strong.

Quote

His mother was terrified that one day Bran would slip off a wall and kill himself.

This means Bran's climbing is ongoing, not some sort of one-time or occasional thing.

Quote

Once she made him promise that he would stay on the ground. He had managed to keep that promise for almost a fortnight, miserable every day

This means his desire to climb was powerful, and had to be denied, almost like a junkie going cold turkey.  Again we have the sense that under normal circumstances he would constantly climb.

Quote

"You're not my son," he told Bran when they fetched him down, "you're a squirrel. So be it. If you must climb, then climb, but try not to let your mother see you."

This is Ned, resigned to the objective fact that no matter what anyone says or does, Bran will just keep on climbing.  

If Bran were only an occasional climber or had no strong interest in climbing, this whole passage would just be nonsensical.

Then we have this:

Quote

 

He knew two ways to get there. You could climb straight up the side of the tower itself, but the stones were loose, the mortar that held them together long gone to ash, and Bran never liked to put his full weight on them.

The best way was to start from the godswood, shinny up the tall sentinel, and cross over the armory and the guards hall, leaping roof to roof, barefoot so the guards wouldn't hear you overhead.

 

This demonstrates Bran's deep experience.  He didn't just climb constantly all over the place... he actually found different routes of climbing to a particular place, just for the hell of it.  Reminds me of how mountain climbers will choose to ascend a particular face in a particular season, knowing it will be harder or easier.

Seems to me Bran's strong interest in and experience of climbing is among the best-established traits of any character in the first half of AGOT.

[JNR]

23 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I doubt that Grey Wind's reaction to the Freys at the Twins deals with a precognition of events.  Otherwise Grey Wind would have been agitated during the trip to the Twins.

Well, it's hard to say this with any confidence, because foreknowledge in ASOIAF is such a fuzzy matter.

We all take it on faith that Jojen's greendreams are real, right?  Yet Jojen...

1. Fails to anticipate the wildlings at Queenscrown

2. Fails to know where the gate is, at the Nightfort -- only that it's there

3. Fails to anticipate Sam coming up the well in the night

4. Fails to anticipate the wight attack at the cave, a particularly dangerous situation

5. Fails to realize they will desperately need food north of the Wall, and collect and bring dried nuts, etc.

Does this stuff, and more like it, invalidate the greendreams?  Does it mean Jojen can't see the future?  I wouldn't say so.  It just shows prophecy is unpredictable and fuzzy.

But since I've never cited Grey Wind at the Twins as a clear instance of foreknowledge, this doesn't particularly bother me.  I consider that only one possible instance.

We can also look at Ghost's behavior the day Jon is killed:

Quote

"Unless your lordship has some other white wolf, aye. I never seen him like this, m'lord. All wild-like, I mean."

He was not wrong, as Jon discovered for himself when he slipped inside the doors. The big white direwolf would not lie still. He paced from one end of the armory to the other, past the cold forge and back again. "Easy, Ghost," Jon called. "Down. Sit, Ghost. Down." Yet when he made to touch him, the wolf bristled and bared his teeth. It's that bloody boar. Even in here, Ghost can smell his stink.

Is all this really about the boar? 

Is it that Ghost is somehow able to sense treachery in the air, even though he's shut away in the armory, and he isn't around any of the Watch? Well, maybe... maybe not.

23 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I think Ghost's reaction may have to do with the Fist itself. 

Well, after the attack, Ghost has no problem going onto the Fist, and he does, with Jon and Ygritte.  So it can't just be the location.  The timing also seems relevant.

[Brad Stark]

Ghost is upset about more than the boar.  But he could be seeing the future and reading minds, or just picking up on non-verbal cues the way animals do. 

[Brad Stark]

5 minutes ago, JNR said:

Well, it's hard to say this with any confidence, because foreknowledge in ASOIAF is such a fuzzy matter.

We all take it on faith that Jojen's greendreams are real, right?  Yet Jojen...

1. Fails to anticipate the wildlings at Queenscrown

2. Fails to know where the gate is, at the Nightfort -- only that it's there

3. Fails to anticipate Sam coming up the well in the night

4. Fails to anticipate the wight attack at the cave, a particularly dangerous situation

5. Fails to realize they will desperately need food north of the Wall, and collect and bring dried nuts, etc.

Does this stuff, and more like it, invalidate the greendreams?  Does it mean Jojen can't see the future?  I wouldn't say so.  It just shows prophecy is unpredictable and fuzzy.

This doesn't even show fuzzy (although Melisandre and others give us plenty of that).  It just shows Jojen isn't omniscient.  Nothing he does see is wrong or interpreted wrong, he just doesn't see everything.