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WHY ARYA WILL BE THE ONE TO KILL LADY STONEHEART


WolfBitch

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3 minutes ago, WolfBitch said:

The major point of Arya is to recognize that this is not right. While she wants to do justice killing specific people who did terrible things, Stoneheart wants to kill anyone associated with the Freys and Lannisters, even the innocent. The biggest part of Arya’s list is based on people who’ve harmed others, not her; but the innocent. The thing she needs to understand is that this is something that would never end, just like Ellaria said.

But Arya has already killed 'innocents': the stableboy and the guard were just doing their legal duty. And now she is a member of a guild of assassins. Her superiors tell her who to kill, and guilt or innocence has nothing to do with it.

Arya's becoming an acolyte of the Stranger. If she's ever going to have a normal life, she needs to move beyond that, and being a kinslayer is not going to help.

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1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

But Arya has already killed 'innocents': the stableboy and the guard were just doing their legal duty. And now she is a member of a guild of assassins. Her superiors tell her who to kill, and guilt or innocence has nothing to do with it.

Arya's becoming an acolyte of the Stranger. If she's ever going to have a normal life, she needs to move beyond that, and being a kinslayer is not going to help.

Arya killed innocents like the stableboy in self defense and she hated it. She felt sad about it. She took no pleasure from it. That’s why Arya will never be a Faceless Man, because she kills for specific reasons. Her own reasons. Arya doesn’t even understand the concept of Valar Morghulis, she doesn’t understand why her father had to die while bad people still live. Her arc with the Faceless Men serve as a way to show us that Arya’s story is about recovering her identity and not loosing it. Mercy’s chapter shows that, Cat’s chapters shows that, Blind Beth chapters shows that. And Arya >doesn’t want< to kill innocent people. She’s very much a people’s person, Sansa herself said that and that never changed. Arya is all about recovering her identity and understanding that vengeance is an unworthy dark path. Nothing better to show her that than Lady Stoneheart, the personification of vengeance. 

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18 hours ago, WolfBitch said:

You actually can kill the undead. Beric died many times. Of course his situation was different, but that’s because Catelyn was found 3 days latter. Still, she can be killed. Arya will likely stick Needle in her stoneheart since her throat is already cut. That’s the Hound’s teaching where the heart is, because Arya almost always cut throats to kill. 

Beric still moved and breathed. His body was alive.

Lady Stoneheart, well, not so much

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I first said this years ago, but I see LS as Arya's metaphorical vengeance. Arya will end her vengeance quest when she kills LS.

As for Arya "recovering" her true self, I don't think she ever lost it. I'd say she's maintained it the whole time, even if she has tried putting it aside at times. Needle is her true self. She may have hidden it, but it's still there and she knows where it is.

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16 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Very much agree to the bolded.

On the other hand, there is a huge unresolved issue between Cat and Jon, which, well... It would be wonderful atonement for Cat if she gave up her unlife to revive Jon. The cold preserves, so Jon has plenty of time to wait for her arrival :D

Not a huge unresolved thing. No big deal in the books, more a show thing, nothing there to be resolved.

3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Arya's becoming an acolyte of the Stranger. If she's ever going to have a normal life, she needs to move beyond that, and being a kinslayer is not going to help.

The decision to destroy Stonheart will come from the realisation Stoneheart has not the capacity for love, and Catelyn Stark without the capacity to love is not really Catelyn Stark, not human and not Arya's mother. Stoneheart is not fit to lead anything and should be destroyed before it causes more pain, death and destruction. When Arya does decide that Stoneheart's destruction was/is necessary it will mean the rejection of her own loveless path and a turn for (return to) the light.

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2 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Beric still moved and breathed. His body was alive.

Lady Stoneheart, well, not so much

Indeed is pretty weird. But I guess each case of resurrection is different, like Beric, Stoneheart, Drogo, Gregor... I still believe that they all can be killed somehow. 

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1 hour ago, Sophist said:

I first said this years ago, but I see LS as Arya's metaphorical vengeance. Arya will end her vengeance quest when she kills LS.

As for Arya "recovering" her true self, I don't think she ever lost it. I'd say she's maintained it the whole time, even if she has tried putting it aside at times. Needle is her true self. She may have hidden it, but it's still there and she knows where it is.

I agree with you, Arya was always there and she said she can’t let go of Arya, but by staying in Braavos and at the House of B&W she still tries to deny her nature. Is about time for her to find out that this is impossible. For me the perfect moment for her leaving is the 10th day of The Unmasking of Uthero. 

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1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

Not a huge unresolved thing. No big deal in the books, more a show thing, nothing there to be resolved.

The decision to destroy Stonheart will come from the realisation Stoneheart has not the capacity for love, and Catelyn Stark without the capacity to love is not really Catelyn Stark, not human and not Arya's mother. Stoneheart is not fit to lead anything and should be destroyed before it causes more pain, death and destruction. When Arya does decide that Stoneheart's destruction was/is necessary it will mean the rejection of her own loveless path and a turn for (return to) the light.

Besides, is hard to consider this “kinslaying” since George himself said that Catelyn is already dead. 

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12 hours ago, WolfBitch said:

Actually her killings are arbitrary. That’s why Brienne went to Jaime, because Stoneheart’s threatened to kill Podrick, who was only Tyrion’s squire, and a child of 12. Thoros himself said that the Brotherhood is not about justice anymore as they were before, they are all about blind vengeance. And Sansa probably won’t meet her. Her arc is in the Vale, Arya’s the one who has maaaany business unsolved at the Riverlands. The only thing I can imagine besides Arya is Bran seeing her through a vision. 

 

“After Catelyn’s resurrection, it was Lady Stoneheart who became a vengeful and merciless killer.”

- GRRM

 

And about Arya not having problems with this... well, you should read her chapters. She hates killing innocent people even for self defense. He has nightmares about it. She’s not a killing machine who’s totally ok with the murdering of children. 

I never said that she wasn't vengeful or merciless. I said her killings were not arbitrary and that she has an agenda beyond killing individual Freys. Stoneheart is waging war to restore the Riverlands to Tully and Stark rule. Petyr Pimple was in direct line to inherit the twins and Ryman Frey was Walder's heir. As a result Black Walder and Edwyn are about to go to war with each other. This is not a random spree. She watches through her spies and makes plans.

As for Pod he is very much alive. As for keeping him hostage indicates a level of ruthlessness which would trouble Catelyn, but it is also far from arbitrary. It gives her a chance to bag Jaime who people seem to forget is the current commander of the force that was sent by the Throne to subdue the Riverlands. Without considering, you know, him having confessed to the defenestration  of an eight year old to cover up the treasonous act of fucking his sister the Queen of the seven kingdoms, to said eight year old's mother. You should consider the possibility that Lady Stoneheart's actions have a purpose beyond its immediate effect. She might have lost her conscience but not her wits. 

And by implication I never claimed that Arya killed arbitrarily either. And of course she feels guilt. But she also has the mentality of a person who is at war and seeing Lady Stoneheart trying to restore their pack by any and all means at her disposal is something she would very much be on board with. 

I agree with what you said about the Riverlands' arc screaming for Arya to go and drop in the middle of it for a multitude of reasons. That doesn't mean that will necessarily happen. I mentioned Sansa because I think her running around with the BwB with Zombie mom is a very interesting dynamic. Her arc has been in the Vale. I don't know if it will continue to do so and frankly, neither do you. She is not nailed there. The possibility occurred to me because there are hints that Arya might get an apprenticeship with the courtesans of Braavos, a world of subtlety, charm, politics and intrigue, in other words way out of her comfort zone, or, Sansa's world. And because the girls' arcs mirror one another's, Martin might look to throw Sansa in Arya's world. 

However, in particular Arya's arc, given her circumstances is the most open ended of all the major characters. She has no particular purpose apart from dealing with her issues and she can go anywhere from Braavos or anyone might come to her. I wouldn't care to venture what will happen next. 

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On 8/15/2018 at 3:47 AM, Ygrain said:

Very much agree to the bolded.

On the other hand, there is a huge unresolved issue between Cat and Jon, which, well... It would be wonderful atonement for Cat if she gave up her unlife to revive Jon. The cold preserves, so Jon has plenty of time to wait for her arrival :D

I'm not sure on the idea of LS having anything to do with Jon's survival.  I'm think both LS and Beric are illustrative of something we should not want for Jon.  I think his survival will have to be done differently, maybe something closer to how Bran held on, etc/plus some type of extra magic?  JMO on that.  I'm not sure how it will be different, but I think it needs to be. 

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17 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

The decision to destroy Stonheart will come from the realisation Stoneheart has not the capacity for love, and Catelyn Stark without the capacity to love is not really Catelyn Stark, not human and not Arya's mother. Stoneheart is not fit to lead anything and should be destroyed before it causes more pain, death and destruction. When Arya does decide that Stoneheart's destruction was/is necessary it will mean the rejection of her own loveless path and a turn for (return to) the light.

This is the sticking point. Arya feels she has no heart, only a hole. How is she the right person to pass judgement on Stoneheart? How can an act of vigilante justice mark a turn away from vigilante justice? How can sending your mother's corrupted soul to hell be a loving act?

It would be better if Stoneheart/Catelyn got her sanity back, however briefly. She has been in a very dark place mentally before, and she was shocked into recovery. It could happen again, things repeat themselves.

Also, so far there are very few fire wights, and an infinite supply of ice wights - it looks like SH/Cat has a job to do (and if she doesn't, what's the point of her resurrection at all?).

ETA

20 hours ago, WolfBitch said:

Arya killed innocents like the stableboy in self defense and she hated it. She felt sad about it. She took no pleasure from it.

Stoneheart doesn't look too happy either.

20 hours ago, WolfBitch said:

That’s why Arya will never be a Faceless Man, because she kills for specific reasons. Her own reasons.

I don't know that an independent assassin is better than an assassin in a guild.

20 hours ago, WolfBitch said:

Arya doesn’t even understand the concept of Valar Morghulis,

Me neither. :)

20 hours ago, WolfBitch said:

 And Arya >doesn’t want< to kill innocent people.

Both have made themselves judge, jury and executioner. Arya kills people she considers guilty, SH kills people she considers guilty. They are the same.

But I agree that seeing each other might be the shock they both need.

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1 hour ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

I'm not sure on the idea of LS having anything to do with Jon's survival.  I'm think both LS and Beric are illustrative of something we should not want for Jon.  I think his survival will have to be done differently, maybe something closer to how Bran held on, etc/plus some type of extra magic?  JMO on that.  I'm not sure how it will be different, but I think it needs to be. 

Agreed with both bolded parts. One difference is already in place - Jon is a warg, so his mind might survive without (much) damage. The rest... I only know I'd hate it to be Mel's doing :ack:

I've brought Stoneheart into this because she sort of fits thematically - 1) she currently possesses a spark of life, so to say, and Jon is in need of one, and 2), overcoming her grudge would be a great sendoff for her character. I didn't think about the particular whats and hows.

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3 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Agreed with both bolded parts. One difference is already in place - Jon is a warg, so his mind might survive without (much) damage. The rest... I only know I'd hate it to be Mel's doing :ack:

I've brought Stoneheart into this because she sort of fits thematically - 1) she currently possesses a spark of life, so to say, and Jon is in need of one, and 2), overcoming her grudge would be a great sendoff for her character. I didn't think about the particular whats and hows.

No problem on that.  I think and rethink and overthink on most things in these books.  I very rarely come up with one thing, just endless possibilities. 

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1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

This is the sticking point. Arya feels she has no heart, only a hole. How is she the right person to pass judgement on Stoneheart? How can an act of vigilante justice mark a turn away from vigilante justice? How can sending your mother's corrupted soul to hell be a loving act?

It would be better if Stoneheart/Catelyn got her sanity back, however briefly. She has been in a very dark place mentally before, and she was shocked into recovery. It could happen again, things repeat themselves.

Also, so far there are very few fire wights, and an infinite supply of ice wights - it looks like SH/Cat has a job to do (and if she doesn't, what's the point of her resurrection at all?).

ETA

Stoneheart doesn't look too happy either.

I don't know that an independent assassin is better than an assassin in a guild.

Me neither. :)

Both have made themselves judge, jury and executioner. Arya kills people she considers guilty, SH kills people she considers guilty. They are the same.

But I agree that seeing each other might be the shock they both need.

Doesn't it take having a heart to actually want one, anyway?  It's almost the Tin Man in THe Wizard of Oz.  I don't think Arya putting LS out Cat's misery would be an act of revenge or judgement, it would be a mercy.  Why would it be sending a corrupt soul to hell?  Wouldn't it be freeing a soul from some sort of twisted, magical corruption? 

ETA:  I do think I understand Valar Morghulis, or at least part of it.  I would take All Men Must Die to lead one to think that the FM would find the Undead to be an abomination, religiously and/or of nature.  That means LS and wights as well. 

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25 minutes ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

Doesn't it take having a heart to actually want one, anyway?  It's almost the Tin Man in THe Wizard of Oz.  I don't think Arya putting LS out Cat's misery would be an act of revenge or judgement, it would be a mercy. 

It's a fair point, though I mostly disagree with the idea of the gift of mercy - if it's unwanted, it's not a gift.

Quote

Why would it be sending a corrupt soul to hell?  Wouldn't it be freeing a soul from some sort of twisted, magical corruption? 

Well, I don't know for sure. Sansa tells us the Faith teaches hell exists, and Ned dreads a frozen hell reserved for Starks. Presumably Arya's beliefs are something similar.

As to freeing a soul, that's a very interesting point. The blue-eyed wights are possessed by their icy controllers, so it's possible that SH is possessed by fire in some sense. If she dies in that state, her spirit may not be freed.

It seems likely to me that magic does not come for free, but is always a form of blood magic, in other words powered by harvested spirits. (Mel finds a great source of magical power in the Wall, where watchmen have lived and died for thousands of years. The Wall grows every year.)

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11 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

It's a fair point, though I mostly disagree with the idea of the gift of mercy - if it's unwanted, it's not a gift.

Well, I don't know for sure. Sansa tells us the Faith teaches hell exists, and Ned dreads of a frozen hell reserved for Starks. Presumably Arya's beliefs are something similar.

As to freeing a soul, that's a very interesting point. The blue-eyed wights are possessed by their icy controllers, so it's possible that SH is possessed by fire in some sense. If she dies in that state, her spirit may not be freed.

It seems likely to me that magic does not come for free, but is always a form of blood magic, in other words powered by harvested spirits. (Mel finds a great source of magical power in the Wall, where watchmen have lived and died for thousands of years. The Wall grows every year.)

Once this thing that is LS realizes Cat has living children, how can you be certain she would want to continue in that horrid existence?  While I do think there is something to the idea that it might take Arya too long to get to Westeros to be the one to send off LS, I do think once it is known to LS that some of her children do survive, any bit of Cat left in there may want release.  That would make it both merciful and a gift. 

I do think Valar Morghulis (All Men Must Die) is the biggest religious consideration here, not that I think Arya believes in that more than the Old Gods, for instance.  It is a sad fact of life, we all must die, and I think that is a bigger consideration in the long run than all the other competing religions and their ideas of morality.  It's a simple statement of fact, Valar Morghulis, unfortunately. 

By things GRRM has said about the gods and the religions, I don't think it matters beyond people's own beliefs in story.  In other words, I meant that regardless of individual beliefs, be it in heavens, hells, or in betweens, I still think it would be a freeing of a soul, in regard to LS, and best for everyone, and I think Arya could see that.  I even think, once LS knows many of Cat's children live, she/it would agree as well. 

 

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1 hour ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

Once this thing that is LS realizes Cat has living children, how can you be certain she would want to continue in that horrid existence?  While I do think there is something to the idea that it might take Arya too long to get to Westeros to be the one to send off LS, I do think once it is known to LS that some of her children do survive, any bit of Cat left in there may want release.  That would make it both merciful and a gift. 

I do think Valar Morghulis (All Men Must Die) is the biggest religious consideration here, not that I think Arya believes in that more than the Old Gods, for instance.  It is a sad fact of life, we all must die, and I think that is a bigger consideration in the long run than all the other competing religions and their ideas of morality.  It's a simple statement of fact, Valar Morghulis, unfortunately. 

By things GRRM has said about the gods and the religions, I don't think it matters beyond people's own beliefs in story.  In other words, I meant that regardless of individual beliefs, be it in heavens, hells, or in betweens, I still think it would be a freeing of a soul, in regard to LS, and best for everyone, and I think Arya could see that.  I even think, once LS knows many of Cat's children live, she/it would agree as well. 

 

The Un-Cat lives for vengeance. It’s not all about her, it’s also about the innocent who suffer with her fury. Arya can recognize when someone is lying and when someone is telling the truth. Stoneheart can not and does not care. How wouldn’t it be merciful to give what’s left of her mother some rest? A proper funeral? When Catelyn was alive she even said she wanted to reunite with Ned as long as her children lived. What do you mean “sending her soul to hell”? Like wtf. This is a huge and weird assumption. 

Martin said she’s an important part of the >>>>>whole<<<<< book. There’s plenty of time for Arya and her to meet. 

Besides, Arya felt like she had no heart because she associates her family with her heart, her heart where “her brothers once lived”. This is not something she can’t recover, for seven’s sake. Bran, Rickon and Sansa are very much alive, and Jon will be resurrected. They will meet again, that’s a fact. “The wolves will come again” just like Jojen said. Stoneheart’s death by Arya’s hands is symbolic. Is putting revenge aside, is giving mercy to innocent people and rest to her mother. Is the Hound’s words coming to light. Is preparing her body just like she learned at the HoB&W. Everything leads to this. Is just a matter of interpretation.

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4 hours ago, Springwatch said:

This is the sticking point. Arya feels she has no heart, only a hole. How is she the right person to pass judgement on Stoneheart? How can an act of vigilante justice mark a turn away from vigilante justice? How can sending your mother's corrupted soul to hell be a loving act?

It isn't vigilante justice, it is demon slaying. And there is no-one more fit to decide if there is anything of Catelyn Stark worth saving within Stoneheart.

Laying to rest a tortured soul will be a gift of mercy and Arya won't be the only one doing it, the Hound will provide his brother the same mercy.

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27 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

It isn't vigilante justice, it is demon slaying. And there is no-one more fit to decide if there is anything of Catelyn Stark worth saving within Stoneheart.

Laying to rest a tortured soul will be a gift of mercy and Arya won't be the only one doing it, the Hound will provide his brother the same mercy.

I guess I’d agree with you if the Mountain lived, but now there’s only Robert Strong now? I mean, in Bran’s vision he said that there was nothing inside the helmet. Sometimes I think that Ser Robert might be headless? Qyburn is kind of a scientist-necromancer, while Beric gave Catelyn the kiss of life, so she has a spark of R’hllor’s fire within. But perhaps each case of resurrection is different.

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15 hours ago, WolfBitch said:

What do you mean “sending her soul to hell”? Like wtf. This is a huge and weird assumption.

Bit rude, that. Well, read on then.

First,

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/151837-why-arya-will-be-the-one-to-kill-lady-stoneheart/&do=findComment&comment=8222982

Next,

Quote

[Sansa, to the Hound] "Aren't you afraid? The gods might send you down to some terrible hell for all the evil you've done." [ACOK - SANSA]

Even Ned fears hell, even though I'm not even sure that's a part of his religion anyway. (Though justice and punishment is.)

Arya has devout parents; she shares the family culture. Cat complains that she is unladylike, but not that she is irreligious. So Arya has taken on board the idea that wicked people get punished in this life or the next - she can't conveniently forget that when she is despatching her mother in a state of evil, as suggested. Not to mention the accursed state of the kinslayer.

It's not what we know that matters, it's what she knows. Arya is a hero, but she has a different mind to the 21st century reader. She's a child of her world, and can't be easily free of that.

17 hours ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

I do think I understand Valar Morghulis, or at least part of it.  I would take All Men Must Die to lead one to think that the FM would find the Undead to be an abomination, religiously and/or of nature.  That means LS and wights as well. 

That makes a lot of sense (and has interesting implications, because the red priests of Braavos must be creating fire wights by now....)

16 hours ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

I do think Valar Morghulis (All Men Must Die) is the biggest religious consideration here, not that I think Arya believes in that more than the Old Gods, for instance.  It is a sad fact of life, we all must die, and I think that is a bigger consideration in the long run than all the other competing religions and their ideas of morality.  It's a simple statement of fact, Valar Morghulis, unfortunately. 

I don't know about this. The FM give themselves a free pass to murder (according to the whims of their religion, to be sure), but Valar Morghulis of itself does not give them any moral authority at all - it seems to be an implied threat, to terrify the populace into cooperation. The Braavosi are terrified - the sailors were even terrified of Arya on arrival, begging her to remember them, to spare them.

Anyway, I'm with the majority on this one: Arya will not ever fully lose her identity to the FM, so they don't ever have moral authority over her.

 

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