Dark Sister

[The Fattest Leech]

Just now, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

That Ilyrio is a Blackfyre, or at least has a Blackfyre connection. The Aegon Blackfyre theory seems more likely now. I have a strict policy of fence-sitting on such matters though.

I gotcha

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Interesting. Certainly suggests Blackfyre. Wonder if it was taken out to preserve the surprise, or because GRRM changed his mind.

The answer to that question is worth 64,000 gold dragons. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

50 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

That Ilyrio is a Blackfyre, or at least has a Blackfyre connection. The Aegon Blackfyre theory seems more likely now. I have a strict policy of fence-sitting on such matters though.

Nothing wrong with staying on the fence but preferring the view in a particular direction. I don't think there's a theory in the fandom that's airtight, except maybe RLJ. 

[Lady Fevre Dream]

1 hour ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Completely new information for me! I'm as of now officially sold on the Blackfyre theory.

I've enjoyed peeking at old threads a few times this week.  It's always interesting to see what old posters are in them.  With this one, I read the summaries, only peeked at the next post, and had to LMAO at the poster thinking they would get to Tyrion meeting Dany in ADWD.  HA!!  And, here we are, still waiting, as Inigo says:  I HATE WAITING!!  I've gotten much better at it though, over the years.  Waiting, that is. 

 

1 hour ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

That Ilyrio is a Blackfyre, or at least has a Blackfyre connection. The Aegon Blackfyre theory seems more likely now. I have a strict policy of fence-sitting on such matters though.

I'm good at not choosing one thing and over thinking much.  I'm not the author and I've never felt comfortable saying:  This is this.  Cue Robert De Niro. 

[Lady Fevre Dream]

44 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The answer to that question is worth 64,000 gold dragons. 

And, whatever the reason that the sword was taken out of the chapter at the time..........does THAT still hold true?  

 

38 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Nothing wrong with staying on the fence but preferring the view in a particular direction. I don't think there's a theory in the fandom that's airtight, except maybe RLJ. 

I agree totally. 

[Rufus Snow]

4 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

6 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

In Dance, when Tyrion and Ilyrio meet Duck and whoever the other guy was near the Shy Maid, Ilyrio gives them 3 chests, which are drawn to our attention as Tyrion wonders what could be in them.  In an earlier version of the chapter which was read as a sample before the book was released, Ilyrio gave them a sword.  It was never said to specifically be Blackfyre, I'm not claiming that is the case, but if you add everything up, if Blackfyre is going to be in the story that is its most likely location.  Ilyrio descends from some famous ancestor, seems to exercise control over the Golden Company, and gives Aegon a mysterious sword.

Interesting. Certainly suggests Blackfyre. Wonder if it was taken out to preserve the surprise, or because GRRM changed his mind.

Aww, man, it's hard enough keeping up with all the published stuff, without having to read the unpublished bits for clues as well.... 

This is why I am not reading any Winds chapters yet

[Clegane'sPup]

8 hours ago, Faera said:

Well, we don’t know how tall Bran really is. If he’s about the same size as other 9 year olds he could be anywhere from 4’3 to as tall as 4’8, based on my experience. Kids tend to grow like weeds around that age.

Yep, Issac bloomed. Hodor couldn't carry him in a basket on his back anymore.

8 hours ago, Faera said:

She was able to drag off Rickard Stark’s burial sword and complain it’s “too heavy” -

Did you do what I sometimes do and leave out a word?

Speaking of the swords Bran & companions took from the crypts ---- and whether the removal of said swords loosed the spirits of the Starks gave me much consternation in the chapter "A Ghost in Winterfell."

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

One has also to keep in mind that Brynden Rivers was about eighty when he disappeared,

Thanks. This is interesting. Challenges my perception and perspective.

[Clegane'sPup]

1 hour ago, Rufus Snow said:

Aww, man, it's hard enough keeping up with all the published stuff, without having to read the unpublished bits for clues as well.... 

This is why I am not reading any Winds chapters yet

Read the unpublished chapters. Just dunna purchase the extra material. I ain't gonna search, maybe someone else will, but ASOIAF is supposed to be a stand alone story.

 

 

[Lord Varys]

42 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Thanks. This is interesting. Challenges my perception and perspective.

77, to be exact. Bloodraven was born in 175 AC and disappeared beyond the Wall in 252 AC.

And we do know that Jeor Mormont didn't run around with Longclaw at that age, either.

If I had to guess then Bloodraven's approaching death may have had something to do with him searching out the Children - if that's what happened. And if he had any inclination he would never leave the cave again chances are not that bad that he would have left the sword behind.

If that's the case it could still be at the Wall - or somebody might have removed it from there.

[kissdbyfire]

9 hours ago, Faera said:

Well, we don’t know how tall Bran really is. If he’s about the same size as other 9 year olds he could be anywhere from 4’3 to as tall as 4’8, based on my experience. Kids tend to grow like weeds around that age. If Jojen is about two or three inches taller than, say, a 4’5 foot Bran (if he could stand) and Meera is the same height- if not taller - then together with the fact Meera is very athletic I see no reason to believe she couldn’t use Dark Sister were the occasion to arise. She was able to drag off Rickard Stark’s burial sword and complain it’s “too heavy” - a slender, lighter Valyrian steel sword that was designed for a woman’s build seems like a more pleasant weapon for her, especially in a dire situation where her spear and dagger won’t cut it.

In terms of who first gets hold of and uses Dark Sister, it’s either her or “Brandor” (& you know my thoughts on that *cough* Brandor Conundrum*cough*). Now we know it’s most likely in BR’s cave it seems inevitable  they’ll randomly trip over it at some point.

It says you quoted me but not really!

 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If that's the case it could still be at the Wall - or somebody might have removed it from there.

Maester Aemon. If BR left the sword at the Wall, he may have left it in the care of the Targaryen who was at the Wall.

[Lord Varys]

Just now, Widow's Watch said:

Maester Aemon. If BR left the sword at the Wall, he may have left it in the care of the Targaryen who was at the Wall, Maester Aemon. 

If Aemon still had it, we should know that by now. And Aemon certainly would have had ample time to send it back to Aegon V, Jaehaerys II, or Aerys II.

This would have been especially important, if the Targaryens hadn't gotten Blackfyre back from Haegon. But if that happened then Dark Sister may have not been very important. After all, Egg apparently allowed it to go to the Wall.

I mean, he had two martial sons. The sword would have been a fine gift for Duncan or Daeron - and the talents of the former should have already been evident in 233 AC.

[Clegane'sPup]

24 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And we do know that Jeor Mormont didn't run around with Longclaw at that age, either.

The great-sword is a two-handed sword.

Ice is a long sword.

Jon is given a bastard sword my Mormont.

What kinda sword is Dark Sister which was once wielded by the mysterious Dragonknight?

 

[kissdbyfire]

18 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Maester Aemon. If BR left the sword at the Wall, he may have left it in the care of the Targaryen who was at the Wall.

I find it super hard to believe Bloodraven would have gone ranging w/o it.

[Clegane'sPup]

15 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Maester Aemon. If BR left the sword at the Wall, he may have left it in the care of the Targaryen who was at the Wall, Maester Aemon. 

There is an implication, highly speculated yet not proven, that Jon, LC Snow is the child of a Targ.

Aemon went to the Wall with BR and BR's Raven Teeth.

BR becomes LC of NW.

BR goes missing.

Aemon is present for the election/choosing of that Q guy and Mormont and Jon Snow,

Aemon checks into Stannis' Lightbringer deems it false.

Aemon and BR being confidants dunna mix wit me.

 

 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

22 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I find it super hard to believe Bloodraven would have gone ranging w/o it.

I don't disagree with this. 

When Bloodraven went "ranging," did he think he would be going back to the Wall? Did he have a Coldhands type person waiting for him to take him to the cave?

My thinking is that whatever was going to happen, he may not have believed he was returning to the Wall. 

Whatever the case, I still don't understand why Aegon would allow the sword to the Wall at all. And who in the world gave it to him in the first place and why? I think the why in both cases is what's important. 

38 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If Aemon still had it, we should know that by now. And Aemon certainly would have had ample time to send it back to Aegon V, Jaehaerys II, or Aerys II.

Would we really know if it had been entrusted to Aemon's keeping, though? Aemon seems to have kept a lot of things to himself. His tongue became untied when he heard of Dany's dragons and he decided to go on an information dump on Sam. Aemon was at Castle Black during the wights' attack. He must have known what all of that was about. Maester Aemon's opinions on the supernatural were never really brought up.

[Clegane'sPup]

49 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Would we really know if it had been entrusted to Aemon's keeping, though? Aemon seems to have kept a lot of things to himself. His tongue became untied when he heard of Dany's dragons and he decided to go on an information dump on Sam. Aemon was at Castle Black during the wights' attack. He must have known what all of that was about. Maester Aemon's opinions on the supernatural were never really brought up.

Yep. Aemon was was present at the Wall a looooooooong time.  He knew secrets.

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

The great-sword is a two-handed sword.

Ice is a long sword.

Jon is given a bastard sword my Mormont.

What kinda sword is Dark Sister which was once wielded by the mysterious Dragonknight?

Blackfyre is a long sword. Dark Sister is somewhat smaller, but still large enough to be used by men and women. I expect it to be a bastard sword, too, but we don't know whether that's the case, I think.

But considering the lightness of Valyrian steel even a great sword could be wielded with one hand, if you are strong/large enough.

8 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I find it super hard to believe Bloodraven would have gone ranging w/o it.

Why? Do we know that Bloodraven took Dark Sister everywhere he went? I mean, did Maynard Plumm have Dark Sister with him when he went to Whitewalls? No.

One could make a case that Bloodraven would have taken the sword if we knew he went on some normal ranging where he expected to fight. But we do not know this. It could be that the man knew exactly where he was going and had no intention of ever coming back. Also keep in mind that it seems highly unusual that an (aged) Lord Commander goes ranging himself. He has his First Ranger and rangers for that. Mormont's officers correctly point out that it is not the Lord Commander's business to risk his life on a ranging.

All that could mean Bloodraven wasn't on a ranging but simply on his way to the cave. One could easily see him leaving CB with just a few men of the former Raven's Teeth as entourage, men who went into the cave with him and have long since died.

8 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

Whatever the case, I still don't understand why Aegon would allow the sword to the Wall at all. And who in the world gave it to him in the first place and why? I think the why in both cases is what's important. 

Originally Daeron II would have given Dark Sister to Bloodraven. I can only see Aegon V allowing Brynden to keep Dark Sister if Haegon Blackfyre returned Blackfyre to the Targaryens during the Third Rebellion. If the Targaryens have the sword of kings again, then their trusted uncle can keep Dark Sister as long as he lives, considering he was such a great supporter. But if that was the only Valyrian steel sword they had it is already odd that Maekar did not demanded Dark Sister back from his uncle. I mean, the man was a martial man - if he could not wield Blackfyre in battle, he surely would have liked to show off another famous Valyrian steel sword in battle, even if his preferred weapon was a mace.

All this makes it very likely that the Blackfyres actually lost Blackfyre. I mean, what do we believe Haegon Blackfyre's sword was? He was the Blackfyre pretender supported by Bittersteel. He must have had 'the sword'. And he gave it up when they took him.

8 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

Would we really know if it had been entrusted to Aemon's keeping, though? Aemon seems to have kept a lot of things to himself. His tongue became untied when he heard of Dany's dragons and he decided to go on an information dump on Sam. Aemon was at Castle Black during the wights' attack. He must have known what all of that was about. Maester Aemon's opinions on the supernatural were never really brought up.

Dark Sister has nothing to do with supernatural stuff, though. Aemon would not forget it if some Valyrian steel sword lay still in his chambers when he leaves the Wall. Granted, if he returned it to Aegon V or his descendants there would be no reason to assume we know about that, but if such a precious heirloom was still laying around at the Wall one would expect him to mention it. Especially when Sam discovered that dragon steel was a good weapon against the Others.

Longclaw and Dark Sister would make two Valyrian steel weapons, after all.

In that sense, it seems more likely to me that Dark Sister is only still at the Wall if Bloodraven himself hid it there for some reason, and only gave the impression of taking it with him beyond the Wall.

And even if Bloodraven took it with to the Wall - it could have traveled down again. This sword has a very complicated history - it went to the ground of the Gods Eye with Vhagar and Aemond, yet eventually it was recovered.

[Rufus Snow]

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

One could make a case that Bloodraven would have taken the sword if we knew he went on some normal ranging where he expected to fight. But we do not know this. It could be that the man knew exactly where he was going and had no intention of ever coming back. Also keep in mind that it seems highly unusual that an (aged) Lord Commander goes ranging himself. He has his First Ranger and rangers for that. Mormont's officers correctly point out that it is not the Lord Commander's business to risk his life on a ranging.

All that could mean Bloodraven wasn't on a ranging but simply on his way to the cave. One could easily see him leaving CB with just a few men of the former Raven's Teeth as entourage, men who went into the cave with him and have long since died.

This is what keeps coming back to me whenever I think around this topic. I'm not convinced BR 'disappeared on a ranging', at least not in any sense we'd normally apply to the word 'ranging'. And one of those men who accompanied him could well be Coldhands, who has demonstrably 'long since died'.

Whether he took DS with him to the cave, though Either his latent greensight or his abilities with the 'dark arts' could have revealed to him his need to go to the cave. It could also have revealed to him a need for a VS blade at the cave some time in the next 100 years or so - there's space in the plot for him to have taken it to the cave, or hidden it at the Wall, so I'm going to have to sit the fence on this (or the Wall, but I don't want a cold rear-end).

Other facts that I'd like to chuck in the pot: BR and Aemon went to the Wall in the middle of a 6-yr long winter: coincidence? And how much should we read into BR's defence for the breach of safe conduct for Aenys Blackfyre: he 'sacrificed his personal honour for the good of the realm'. (cf " I am the sword that guards the realm of men, Jon reminded himself, and in the end, that must be worth more than one man's honor." )

 

[SirArthur]

5 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Whether he took DS with him to the cave, though Either his latent greensight or his abilities with the 'dark arts' could have revealed to him his need to go to the cave. It could also have revealed to him a need for a VS blade at the cave some time in the next 100 years or so - there's space in the plot for him to have taken it to the cave, or hidden it at the Wall, so I'm going to have to sit the fence on this (or the Wall, but I don't want a cold rear-end).

 It's funny, because in this Tolkien universe powerful artifacts like Palantírs disappear and are never seen again. But for some reason Westeros has to be artifact-complete. Although GRRM created vanished artifacts in the past (like Brightroar).