Dark Sister

[Rufus Snow]

16 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

 It's funny, because in this Tolkien universe powerful artifacts like Palantírs disappear and are never seen again. But for some reason Westeros has to be artifact-complete. Although GRRM created vanished artifacts in the past (like Brightroar). 

Are you suggesting BR looked for his sword one day and it just wasn't there?

If you're going to get pernickity, better start making distinctions between 'vanished' and 'lost'. Because I would agree that many items in Westeros have been lost. But vanished? Not so much.

And lost things can sometimes be found, can't they, Smeagol?

[Alexis-something-Rose]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Dark Sister has nothing to do with supernatural stuff, though.

I was only using the things Maester Aemon already has knowledge of and kept to himself. Dark Sister was given to Bloodraven who was very much into the supernatural, so who knows, really. And that may be the whole reason he was given the sword and was allowed to keep it. Bloodraven is a greenseer. He may not have had dragon dreams, but he could certainly see some of what lay ahead. Maybe Dark Sister's place was at the Wall.

Maybe Blackfyre is the sword of warriors and Dark Sister is the sword that has the more supernatural "inkling."

[Faera]

12 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Yep, Issac bloomed. Hodor couldn't carry him in a basket on his back anymore.

Did you do what I sometimes do and leave out a word?

Speaking of the swords Bran & companions took from the crypts ---- and whether the removal of said swords loosed the spirits of the Starks gave me much consternation in the chapter "A Ghost in Winterfell."

Thanks. This is interesting. Challenges my perception and perspective.

Probably. I was tired and on my phone at the time.

10 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I find it super hard to believe Bloodraven would have gone ranging w/o it.

Agreed. I really just don't see him leaving without it either.

11 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

It says you quoted me but not really!

Weird...  

[Seams]

9 hours ago, SirArthur said:

 It's funny, because in this Tolkien universe powerful artifacts like Palantírs disappear and are never seen again. But for some reason Westeros has to be artifact-complete. Although GRRM created vanished artifacts in the past (like Brightroar). 

I agree. While I understand the impulse to find the "missing" swords (and I enjoy the debate) I have become increasingly convinced that GRRM is using many of these missing items in symbolic ways.

In a relatively recent exploration of The Hedge Knight story, I came to a new understanding of some of the layers of meaning of the sword Dark Sister - relating to Bloodraven's sister and paramour, Shiera Seastar; possibly his other sister, Danelle Lothston; and of Dunk and Egg embodying two halves of a whole that could be represented by Dark Sister.

If I had to guess today, my surmise would be that Bloodraven "possessed" the sword by supporting and protecting Dunk and Egg through their travels and rise to power - Dunk and Egg personify Dark Sister and Bloodraven oversaw their safety and well-being. In turn, they helped him by intervening in situations where Bloodraven needed events to take a certain course. Bloodraven's weapon was in fostering the unlikely Aegon V as the future king. It will not surprise me if we eventually learn that Dunk does not die at Summerhall, but escapes somehow (others have guessed that he will be the one who helps baby Rhaegar and Rhaella escape the conflagration) and then travels to the Wall to live out the rest of his days. The split between Dunk and Egg will be a painful turning point, much like the melting down of Ice to create Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail.

Is Bloodraven forging a new "Dark Sister" by mentoring a new Dunk & Egg duo? You could make the case that Bran and Hodor are a similar bonded pair and that Bloodraven is honing their edge.

If the literal sword Dark Sister were going to reappear in the story, I don't know that GRRM would have answered the query from a fan (about whether Bloodraven took the sword to the Wall) so quickly and directly. As others have pointed out, taking the sword to the Wall seventy years ago still doesn't tell us where the sword is today, or who possesses it.

In the small, windowless room of literary symbolism where I play by myself for hours at a time, I'm sorry to report that Dark Sister was among the many dead swords that have gone to their rest in the Winterfell crypt. Not necessarily because Bloodraven left the literal sword there on his way north (or on a subsequent trip south) but because swords eventually die just as Kings of Winter and direwolves eventually die. Of course, Bran and his traveling companions removed four of those swords when they traveled toward Bloodraven, and GRRM does have this thing about rebirth . . . .

[Lady Anna]

On 8/16/2018 at 6:16 PM, Widow's Watch said:

If the Targs were in possession of Blackfyre, why is there nothing on it? If we didn't have all the side material that we have, we wouldn't even know about the sword. Ditto Dark Sister, actually. When you think about it, neither swords have been mentioned at all in the current series.

If Blackfyre was still around, would it have made to the Battle of the Trident? 

Yeah, and will it even appear? I'm not so certain...... this is one of my pet peeves about some of the discussion on the series: namely when it comes to the Blackfyres but *ahem* (that said, I do love Targaryen history). Moving on.

Just to generate more discussion, do you guys think that there's some kind of pattern as to why the sword was owned by Visenya, Aemon, Daemon, and Bloodraven, and why it was those people who had it? And do you think that, IF the sword appears by name or is recognized as Dark Sister, that that can give some clue to who will wield it next?

 

[LindsayLohan]

1 hour ago, Lady Anna said:

Yeah, and will it even appear? I'm not so certain...... this is one of my pet peeves about some of the discussion on the series: namely when it comes to the Blackfyres but *ahem* (that said, I do love Targaryen history). Moving on.

Just to generate more discussion, do you guys think that there's some kind of pattern as to why the sword was owned by Visenya, Aemon, Daemon, and Bloodraven, and why it was those people who had it? And do you think that, IF the sword appears by name or is recognized as Dark Sister, that that can give some clue to who will wield it next?

 

I've always been a fan of the theory that Blackfyre is in Ilyrio's possession, and he hid it in plain site:  The marble statue in his courtyard.

Quote

A naked boy stood on the water, poised to duel with a bravo’s blade in hand. He was
lithe and handsome, no older than sixteen, with straight blond hair that brushed his shoulders. So
lifelike did he seem that it took the dwarf a long moment to realize he was made of painted marble,
though his sword shimmered like true steel.

 

[Lord Varys]

Blackfyre is the sword of kings. If the Targaryens had regained it it would have been the sword of Aerys I, Maekar, Aegon V, Jaehaerys II, and Aerys II - not the sword of Prince Rhaegar. Rhaegar never was a king. And after the whole Blackfyre debacle it would make a lot of sense to keep an even tighter grip on the sword than they did before.

If Dark Sister is supposed to play any role of significance the only thing one can imagine it doing in the cave is to serve as confirmation that the three-eyed crow is Bloodraven - which already know, anyway. One sword is going to help no one if the Others ever attack the cave.

At the Wall there would at least be a chance for Jon to claim it although there is actually little reason for that considering he already has a Valyrian steel sword.

Stannis might make some use of it, I guess, but aside from that I really don't see much purpose for this sword.

[SirArthur]

26 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Blackfyre is the sword of kings.

Blackfyre was the sword of some kings. Different kings, different crowns. 

26 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If Dark Sister is supposed to play any role of significance the only thing one can imagine it doing in the cave is to serve as confirmation that the three-eyed crow is Bloodraven - which already know, anyway.

How is there even a connection between the three-eyed crow and Dark Sister ? 

We know that Bloodraven is that guy in the tree. And we assume that he is the three-eyed-crow. Dark Sister is just a sword. Its presence does not even show us that the guy in the tree is the original owner of the sword.

It's like assuming Brienne is Jaime, because she has his red sword. 

[Lord Varys]

18 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Blackfyre was the sword of some kings. Different kings, different crowns.

Blackfyre was the sword of the Targaryen kings and the Blackfyre pretenders.

 

[Seams]

3 hours ago, Lady Anna said:

Just to generate more discussion, do you guys think that there's some kind of pattern as to why the sword was owned by Visenya, Aemon, Daemon, and Bloodraven, and why it was those people who had it? And do you think that, IF the sword appears by name or is recognized as Dark Sister, that that can give some clue to who will wield it next?

Excellent questions. I think this goes directly to the origin of the all-important "the dragon has three heads" rule. The original three-headed dragon was Visenya, Aegon and Rhaenys. I think the point is that balance is achieved when three people work together to rule the kingdom. (Although the trio has to be the right three people, not just any three people.) The sword may be a symbol of that balance, but it has to be kept in balance by the other elements representing the trio. I'm not sure whether the sword Blackfyre is one of the elements, or whether - possibly - literal fire is the middle element. Another possibility is that the man, Aegon the Conqueror, is the middle element. In one thread a few months back, someone proposed that a harp might be the middle element representing the trio. I suspect the third element, associated with Rhaenys, is a dragon.

My favorite line of the week (or maybe of the month) is this one about the Wall:

He had once heard his uncle Benjen say that the Wall was a sword east of Castle Black, but a snake to the west. It was true.

(ASoS, Jon IV)

The wall is a similar balance of three things - a sword, a snake (associated with dragons) and . . . what is the third? Is it Castle Black? Is it the tunnel through the wall? Is it Jon Snow himself? Jon Snow was burned in a fire at Castle Black . . .

But this thread and your question focus on Dark Sister. Here's the known history of ownership of the blade, in a nutshell.

• The sword Dark Sister is associated with Visenya, the older sister who was serious and austere and who may have dabbled in dark magic.
• She gave it to her son, Maegor, who built Maegor's Holdfast, which I believe is a central symbol of the "game" that is at the core of the Game of Thrones. Maegor was a rival to Aenys and became his successor on the throne.
• The widow of Aenys, Alyssa Velaryon, took the sword into exile and it reemerged in Westeros when her son Jaehaerys I and daughter Alysanne became king and queen. 
• Jaehaerys gave the sword to his grandson, Daemon, whose older brother and niece were ahead of him in the direct line of succession. Daemon was at the center of the Targaryen civil war known as the Dance of the Dragons. He married his niece and championed her claim to the throne, ultimately sacrificing himself by leaping from the back of his dragon to drive the sword through the eye of his nephew Aemond, who supported the other faction.
• The sword was recovered from the Gods Eye lake years later. It went to Aemon the Dragonknight, a grandson of Daemon, and rival of King Aegon IV. There were rumors that Aemon was the actual father of the heir to the throne as the queen loved her brother Aemon and disliked her brother / husband Aegon IV. (Is this another example of the dragon having three heads?)
• It is not clear how the sword went from the "childless" Aemon to Bloodraven. Bloodraven was an acknowledged bastard of Aegon IV, but his mother was befriended by the queen and the Dragonknight. Perhaps Aemon saw that Bloodraven was a champion for the Targaryen bloodline, and felt the sword would be safe in his hands. As the wiki points out, Bloodraven's weapon of choice was a bow and arrows, not the sword. Bloodraven is a major power behind the throne during the civil wars known as the Blackfyre Rebellions. The rebellions had their genesis in Aegon IV bestowing the sword Blackfyre on one of his bastard sons and then legitimizing all of his natural children, complicating the situation for his "true born" successor.

In summary, the sword Dark Sister seems to be in the hands of a major player every time a civil war or major rivalry breaks out within the Targaryen family. The players change and the sword does not always seem to be on the "same side," as readers might define them, but it always seems to be present during these conflicts.

There are all kinds of symbolism with the Egg = Ei = Eye = Eisen = Iron pun here, with Daemon stabbing Aemond in the eye. Aemond's body fell into the Gods' Eye, with the sword and the dragon Vhagar (this could be another of those three balanced elements including a sword, man and dragon). Later, Bittersteel will wound Bloodraven in battle, destroying one of his eyes.

As I mentioned in an earlier comment, I am not persuaded that the sword Dark Sister will literally reappear in the story. It does seem likely that we are about to see a new Targaryen civil war, however, with Dany and fAegon each leading armies to Westeros and a probable Targ bastard possibly leading a third faction. If the idea is correct that there must be three heads and that a balance must be achieved, I hope that Jon Snow might act as "The Aegon" in the trio, bringing the dragons (Dany) and the sword (possibly fAegon) into harmony and a kind of balance that has not been achieved since the days of Aegon, Visenya and Rhaenys.

2 hours ago, LindsayLohan said:

I've always been a fan of the theory that Blackfyre is in Ilyrio's possession, and he hid it in plain site:  The marble statue in his courtyard.

A braavos blade is even smaller than Dark Sister. Of course, the statue might be larger-than-life, and the sword would look like a braavos blade relative to the statue wielding it.

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, SirArthur said:

We know that Bloodraven is that guy in the tree. And we assume that he is the three-eyed-crow. Dark Sister is just a sword. Its presence does not even show us that the guy in the tree is the original owner of the sword.

It's like assuming Brienne is Jaime, because she has his red sword. 

Nonsense, the author could play it so that Bran himself recognizes Dark Sister from descriptions he heard of the sword (from songs about the Dragonknight, say) and then this could cause him to realize that this 'Brynden' fellow is the notorious Lord Bloodraven he must have also heard something about. Or he recognizes the sword as Valyrian steel and then inquires about it, etc.

At least that's a scenario I think could make sense and give the sword some meaning if it was in the cave. If not, then it would just be a meaningless prop. Nothing more and nothing less than the second dragonglass dagger on the right.

[Clegane'sPup]

13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Blackfyre is a long sword. Dark Sister is somewhat smaller, but still large enough to be used by men and women. I expect it to be a bastard sword, too, but we don't know whether that's the case, I think.

But considering the lightness of Valyrian steel even a great sword could be wielded with one hand, if you are strong/large enough.

Starting out strong Blackfrye is a longsword.      Dark Sister is somewhat smaller.

Moving on to the bastard sword.

But because the sword is made of Valryrian steel .....

[Lord Varys]

Just now, Clegane'sPup said:

Starting out strong Blackfrye is a longsword.      Dark Sister is somewhat smaller.

Moving on to the bastard sword.

But because the sword is made of Valryrian steel .....

Lightness doesn't resolve any issue. A strong man like Maelys Blackfyre or Gregor Clegane could use Blackfyre or Ice as a one-handed sword. But Meera could not, no matter how light it is, because it has a certain size and weight still.

However slender Dark Sister might be, it wasn't traditionally a woman's sword. One woman wielded it, Visenya, the other wielders were all men (although it seems the sword was named after Visenya - some old Valyrian would have had no reason to name the sword Dark Sister - or name it at all). And men of considerable size and power at that - Maegor, Jaehaerys I, Daemon, Aemon, and Bloodraven.

[Clegane'sPup]

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

Lightness doesn't resolve any issue. A strong man like Maelys Blackfyre or Gregor Clegane could use Blackfyre or Ice as a one-handed sword. But Meera could not, no matter how light it is, because it has a certain size and weight still.

Thank you.

 

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

However slender Dark Sister might be, it wasn't traditionally a woman's sword.

Thank you.,

 

[Clegane'sPup]

This larger than life Dunk & Egg spymaster carried around a sword named Dark Sister that was carried round by the Dragonknight.

People explain to me how BR got the Dark Sister sword.

 

[Daemon The Black Dragon]

13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Blackfyre is a long sword. Dark Sister is somewhat smaller, but still large enough to be used by men and women. I expect it to be a bastard sword, too, but we don't know whether that's the case, I think.

 

I thought Blackfyre was a bastard sword and Dark Sister was a more slender longsword.

[Seams]

51 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

However slender Dark Sister might be, it wasn't traditionally a woman's sword.

Here's what the wiki says:

The sword was in the possession of House Targaryen since before Aegon's Conquest.^[1] It may have been forged for a woman warrior originally, as its slender blade is designed for a woman's hand.^[2]

(Emphasis added.) Footnote 2 references a SSM from 2005.

If you have new information from the author, contradicting the 2005 information, please let us know.

[Rufus Snow]

15 minutes ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

I thought Blackfyre was a bastard sword and Dark Sister was a more slender longsword.

You thunk right:

Quote

Blackfyre is the fabled hand-and-a-half longsword of Valyrian steel once wielded by Aegon the Conqueror. It is the most famous of the several Valyrian swords once owned by House Targaryen,^[1

Also based on an SSM

[Clegane'sPup]

17 minutes ago, Seams said:

Here's what the wiki says:

The sword was in the possession of House Targaryen since before Aegon's Conquest.^[1] It may have been forged for a woman warrior originally, as its slender blade is designed for a woman's hand.^[2]

(Emphasis added.) Footnote 2 references a SSM from 2005.

If you have new information from the author, contradicting the 2005 information, please let us know.

This is a problem. The readers of ASOIAF have multiple p;laces to look for validation of their ideas.

In the five ASOIAF books that have been published none of the above ^ is discussed.

The Sworn Sword    Six years ago in King's Landing, Dunk had seen him with his own two eyes, as he rode a pale horse up the Street of Steel with fifty Raven's Teeth behind him. That was before King Aerys had ascended to the Iron Throne and made him the Hand, but even so he cut a striking figure, garbed in smoke and scarlet with Dark Sister on his hip. His pallid skin and bone-white hair made him look a living corpse. Across his cheek and chin spread a wine-stain birthmark that was supposed to resemble a red raven, though Dunk only saw an odd-shaped blotch of discolored skin.

If individuals want to make this about She-Ra it is okay with me. What I wanna know is how BR came to process the Dragonknights sword.

The Sworn Sword    When Prince Daemon had Blackfyre in his hand, there was not a man to equal him . . . not Ulrick Dayne with Dawn, no, nor even the Dragonknight with Dark Sister.

None of this is covered in the five ASOIAF books.

 

 

[Meera of Tarth]

On 8/16/2018 at 7:34 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

That's it! Meera is the dragon and she will literally have three heads on her sword.

How cool would that be!