Dark Sister

[The Sleeper]

I would have expected Magor to fight with Blackfyre at least after he became king. He wore his father's crown, rode his father's dragon... plus he was a big guy. Visenya after all died after he became king. 

The Dragonknight is the odd one out of those who wielded Dark Sister. Visenya, Damon and Bloodraven all had unsavoury reputations. All of the latter three were heavily involved in dynastic struggles. 

 

[SirArthur]

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Blackfyre was the sword of the Targaryen kings and the Blackfyre pretenders.

And one king gave it away and that's it. And there were kings after him. Making it the sword of some Targaryen kings. 

 

You can certainly crown yourself king of italy, if you have the iron crown of lombardy. Won't make you the one true, recognized king of italy though. Just asked the crowned heads.

[kissdbyfire]

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

However slender Dark Sister might be, it wasn't traditionally a woman's sword. One woman wielded it, Visenya, the other wielders were all men (although it seems the sword was named after Visenya - some old Valyrian would have had no reason to name the sword Dark Sister - or name it at all). And men of considerable size and power at that - Maegor, Jaehaerys I, Daemon, Aemon, and Bloodraven.

Well, Martin says otherwise.

I might also add that Visenya is the most likely of the two to garb herself as a warrior, and when so garbed, she would wield the Valyrian longsword Dark Sister, whose slender blade is designed for a woman's hand

[Lord Varys]

One woman wielded Dark Sister - and five men that we know of. Perhaps there were other women before Visenya who owned it - but we don't know that yet. But it definitely had know other female owner after Visenya but became the traditional weapon of the great Targaryen warriors who were not kings (yet).

I guess there is a chance the sword was originally designed for a woman back in Valyria - but we don't know that, either. It could be that it was made from a larger sword for Visenya on Dragonstone - the way they remade Ice in two smaller swords. What we can definitely say is that the sword was likely named by/for Visenya considering that it would be very strange if there had been another 'dark sister' back in Valyria the sword was named for. Pretty much everything in the name Dark Sister points to Visenya.

3 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

I would have expected Magor to fight with Blackfyre at least after he became king. He wore his father's crown, rode his father's dragon... plus he was a big guy. Visenya after all died after he became king.

Maegor likely stuck to Blackfyre even before he became king. King Aenys gave him the sword after the death of their father, and we know he took it with him into exile - he would have presumably also have it with him when he fought against the rebels in the Vale (although he had no need to use it there in battle).

[Lord Varys]

Dark Sister may be smaller than Blackfyre, but it is not as small/short not be wielded (and of use when when wielded) by large, powerfully built men. Maegor, Daemon, and Aemon were all powerful men, among the greatest warriors of their generation. Bloodraven is somewhat weaker, but still a very tall man.

As to how Bloodraven got it:

It is obvious he must have gotten it from his royal half-brother, Daeron II. Brynden Rivers was only nine years old when his royal sire, King Aegon IV, died, and the Dragonknight and Queen Naerys both predeceased the Unworthy. Aemon bore the sword until the day he died defending his ingrate brother, and there is no reason to believe Aegon IV should have given the sword to a boy at the age of 5-8.

Instead, chances are pretty good that Daeron II gave it to Bloodraven once he saw the potential in the young man and had realized that he was utterly devoted to him. It might even be that Brynden only got the sword during the Blackfyre Rebellion - after he had warned the king about Daemon's plans, leading to the Kingsguard trying to arrest Daemon. We do know that Bloodraven already had the sword on the Redgrass Field.

My personal idea is that Bloodraven must have gotten the sword either around the beginning of the rebellion or before that, because if he had not had it at those times then chances would have been higher that Daeron II might have given it to either Baelor or Maekar in reward for their stalwart loyalty and their abilities as commanders and generals.

[bent branch]

After reading through everyone's opinions I am still about 90% certain that Dark Sister is in the cave. Here are some of the thoughts I have on why Dark Sister would be there.

Someone mentioned that Mormont kept Long Claw in a cupboard and Bloodraven might do the same. I would say what Mormont did says nothing about what Bloodraven would do. Mormont had already given Long Claw to his son, Jorah. He only had it because Jorah had committed a capital offense and left it behind when he ran. Thus, it probably had bad memories associated with it for Jeor. Also, there was no need for Jeor to be carrying any sword around Castle Black. He did put on a sword when he went on the ranging, but he didn't carry any sword day to day. This would have been true for Bloodraven also.

Another argument I saw was Bloodraven was old. So? Even the old guy would take a weapon with him. Isn't it better to take the lighter one?

There is no way Bloodraven went on that last ranging without a weapon, even if he didn't intend to return. Going without a weapon would have raised an alarm as would have gifting his prestigious sword. No matter what the circumstances, Bloodraven would have acted as normal as possible while heading north of the Wall. Thus, he would have taken the sword with him.

There is the possibility that Bloodraven sent the sword back to his family (the Targaryens) in Kingslanding when he got older, just in case. But I don't see any reason he would.

Will the sword show up again? Maybe. Maybe it will be Meera that wields it. Or maybe it will be Hodor being warged by Bran who wields it. Or maybe it will remain lost. But if Meera or Hodor or Jojen or someone else gets to use Valyrian steel against an Other we will finally know whether Valyrian steel is dragonsteel. 

Maybe that is why GRRM put Dark Sister in that cave. Who knows?

[Rufus Snow]

5 minutes ago, bent branch said:

There is no way Bloodraven went on that last ranging without a weapon, even if he didn't intend to return. Going without a weapon would have raised an alarm as would have gifting his prestigious sword. No matter what the circumstances, Bloodraven would have acted as normal as possible while heading north of the Wall. Thus, he would have taken the sword with him.

We know NOTHING about the circumstances of Bloodraven's last ranging beyond the fact that he did not return. Maybe this was his plan, maybe not. What he would or would not have done is pure speculation. THUS he may have taken the sword with him, or left it behind: maybe hidden, maybe in the care of a trusted Brother.

We must needs wait for the god of this universe to reveal his divine plan.....

[bent branch]

5 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

We know NOTHING about the circumstances of Bloodraven's last ranging beyond the fact that he did not return. Maybe this was his plan, maybe not. What he would or would not have done is pure speculation. THUS he may have taken the sword with him, or left it behind: maybe hidden, maybe in the care of a trusted Brother.

We must needs wait for the god of this universe to reveal his divine plan.....

It's fine if you see it that way. I still say it is unlikely Bloodraven went on a ranging unarmed and that he would take a lesser weapon with him. Even if he didn't intend to return, he would have acted like he did because otherwise it may have been interpreted as him deserting rather than just going missing.

[kissdbyfire]

4 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

We know NOTHING about the circumstances of Bloodraven's last ranging beyond the fact that he did not return. Maybe this was his plan, maybe not. What he would or would not have done is pure speculation. THUS he may have taken the sword with him, or left it behind: maybe hidden, maybe in the care of a trusted Brother.

We must needs wait for the god of this universe to reveal his divine plan.....

True. But... IMO, the answer is yes, he would most definitely take the sword, regardless of this being a regular ranging or if he knew he'd never return, or any alternative option. Because it doesn't really matter, the pretext or the truth, the "story" is, he was going ranging. And it would make no sense, again, IMO, to do so w/o the sword. As @bent branch said, even if the ranging was just an excuse to go do whatever - research, join the CotF, etc - he wouldn't want to make others suspicious.

[Rufus Snow]

11 minutes ago, bent branch said:

. Even if he didn't intend to return, he would have acted like he did because otherwise it may have been interpreted as him deserting rather than just going missing.

If he knew he wasn't coming back, why would he care if people thought him a deserter? Don't forget he already once decided to 'dishonour' himself for the good of the realm.

The very same question that LC Snow had to ask himself: " I am the sword that guards the realm of men, Jon reminded himself, and in the end, that must be worth more than one man's honor. "

[bent branch]

1 minute ago, Rufus Snow said:

If he knew he wasn't coming back, why would he care if people thought him a deserter? Don't forget he already once decided to 'dishonour' himself for the good of the realm.

The very same question that LC Snow had to ask himself: " I am the sword that guards the realm of men, Jon reminded himself, and in the end, that must be worth more than one man's honor. "

He dishonored himself because he thought he was doing something that was good for the realm. The commander deserting would have been very demoralizing for the men of the Watch. He wouldn't want to leave that type of damage behind him at the Watch.

[Rufus Snow]

9 minutes ago, bent branch said:

He dishonored himself because he thought he was doing something that was good for the realm. The commander deserting would have been very demoralizing for the men of the Watch. He wouldn't want to leave that type of damage behind him at the Watch.

I don't disagree with this, but it's still possible that he thought it would serve the realm more than maintaining the morale of the Watch may have done. He might have had very few - or even no - choices. LCs are replaceable, but greenseers???? One in a thousand men can be wargs, one in a thousand wargs can be greenseers. What serves the realm more?

[Rufus Snow]

21 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Because it doesn't really matter, the pretext or the truth, the "story" is, he was going ranging. And it would make no sense, again, IMO, to do so w/o the sword.

We don't even know whether anyone else at the Wall even knew he had Dark Sister. Why should we assume they'd have any opinion, then, on whether he took said sword with him on his final ranging?

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

We don't even know whether anyone else at the Wall even knew he had Dark Sister. Why should we assume they'd have any opinion, then, on whether he took said sword with him on his final ranging?

I don't really see how he could or why he would keep that a secret for almost 20 years? Not only that, but among the men who joined when he and maester Aemon did, several were from the Raven's Teeth, so it's not like he was the only one w/ that knowledge. 

[Rufus Snow]

6 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don't really see how he could or why he would keep that a secret for almost 20 years? Not only that, but among the men who joined when he and maester Aemon did, several were from the Raven's Teeth, so it's not like he was the only one w/ that knowledge. 

Maybe, maybe not. We just don't know, that's the point.... seemed like Longclaw was bit of a buzz once it came out of 'hiding'. Perhaps in an environment swilling with rapers, thieves and murderers you don't always put a big flag up to say 'Valyrian sword here'??? Even if you are Bloodraven...

[The Fattest Leech]

Random question here, and I’m on my phone so I’m not putting my entire thought lineup in this post, but is anyone else wondering if this could also be the sword that the Others we’re looking for back in the AGOT prologue? Those Others seemed to be looking for a combo of right person with the right sword. 

[Clegane'sPup]

53 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Random question here, and I’m on my phone so I’m not putting my entire thought lineup in this post, but is anyone else wondering if this could also be the sword that the Others we’re looking for back in the AGOT prologue? Those Others seemed to be looking for a combo of right person with the right sword. 

I am aware or the chitter chatter.

I think that the Others did indeed look at the sword and evaluate.

I do not however think it had anything to do with a Stark.

[Clegane'sPup]

Caveat is none of this BR stuff is in the five ASOIAF books. BR liked his special bow. His sword might have been dainty.
 

Edit: I guess the Dragonknight liked a dainty sword also.

[Lord Varys]

Bloodraven was the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. He could do whatever the hell he wanted to. If he wanted to take his sword, he would have taken it. If he wanted to keep it at CB, he could have done that, too. Unless he defected like a common turncloak it is more likely he took close confidants with him and actually searched for the cave rather than ending there by accident.

6 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Random question here, and I’m on my phone so I’m not putting my entire thought lineup in this post, but is anyone else wondering if this could also be the sword that the Others we’re looking for back in the AGOT prologue? Those Others seemed to be looking for a combo of right person with the right sword. 

The Other seems to check whether Waymar had a Valyrian steel sword - or a sword made of 'dragon steel', whatever that is. There is no reason to believe he cared about a special named sword, or anything of that sort. There is no difference between Dark Sister, Blackfyre, Ice, Lamentation, Lady Forlorn, etc. aside from the fact that they are made of Valyrian steel.

And the idea that the Others care about human bloodlines also makes little sense to me. The Others don't seem to be individuals to a very high degree. Why on earth should they care about the individual characteristics of the people they intend to collectively kill and turn into zombies?

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

On ‎8‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 8:28 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

Nothing wrong with staying on the fence but preferring the view in a particular direction. I don't think there's a theory in the fandom that's airtight, except maybe RLJ. 

Agreed. R+L=J is pretty much canon now. I think other theories like the Blackfyre-fAegon connection and Tyrion Targaryen are pretty solid, but the details are far from certain.

 

On ‎8‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 11:54 PM, Rufus Snow said:

Aww, man, it's hard enough keeping up with all the published stuff, without having to read the unpublished bits for clues as well.... 

Ikr? I've been on and off this forum for years and never come across this one! It's one of the reasons I like this forum. New stuff pops up all the time.