Dark Sister

[The Fattest Leech]

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Bloodraven was the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. He could do whatever the hell he wanted to. If he wanted to take his sword, he would have taken it. If he wanted to keep it at CB, he could have done that, too.

 

I agree with this, in addition to other reasons, like the qualities of V steel beyond the wall. 

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 

Unless he defected like a common turncloak

Pretty sure he did not. 

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

it is more likely he took close confidants with him and actually searched for the cave rather than ending there by accident.

Maybe a few Teeth. Maybe 11ish? 

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The Other seems to check whether Waymar had a Valyrian steel sword - or a sword made of 'dragon steel', whatever that is. There is no reason to believe he cared about a special named sword, or anything of that sort. There is no difference between Dark Sister, Blackfyre, Ice, Lamentation, Lady Forlorn, etc. aside from the fact that they are made of Valyrian steel.

Yeah. That’s what I was getting at. That the sword they checked wasn’t something that could possibly be something more than just common steel. 

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And the idea that the Others care about human bloodlines also makes little sense to me. The Others don't seem to be individuals to a very high degree. Why on earth should they care about the individual characteristics of the people they intend to collectively kill and turn into zombies?

Ah jeez. This again? 

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Maybe a few Teeth. Maybe 11ish? 

Why not just three or two? Not everything has to be about symbols.

And while I find it not unlikely that Bloodraven looked for the cave, there is also the possibility he had no clue about anything until he arrived there. He could have been attacked by wights/Others and Coldhands/the Children could have saved him, with all his companions dying.

Unless Bloodraven was somehow separated from his companions those companions must have either died on the ranging or never returned to the Wall. Else the people there would know more about his whereabouts than they do know.

But who knows? Perhaps the man just disappeared from his tent in one night. He was a sorcerer and could use glamors.

3 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Ah jeez. This again? 

Yeah. While we don't know anything about the Others there is no reason to believe they care about stuff like that. Not to mention that nothing in the scene implies or indicates that they care about the names or looks of the people they kill.

[The Fattest Leech]

12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Why not just three or two? Not everything has to be about symbols

Because sometimes I like to pet your fur backwards, like a cat. 

Quote

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And while I find it not unlikely that Bloodraven looked for the cave, there is also the possibility he had no clue about anything until he arrived there. He could have been attacked by wights/Others and Coldhands/the Children could have saved him, with all his companions dying.

This is a pissablity (<—- see, I need coffee. Subconscious Typo). I think there are many options as to why and how BR went to that cave. I tend to be in the pool with the other cool kids that believe Coldhands was a Teeth (Tooth?) that either went ranging with BR when he first left alongside BR, or was part of a scouting party that went looking for their LC after he was missing for a time. And then things happen from there. 

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Unless Bloodraven was somehow separated from his companions those companions must have either died on the ranging or never returned to the Wall. Else the people there would know more about his whereabouts than they do know.

Yes. 

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Yeah. While we don't know anything about the Others there is no reason to believe they care about stuff like that. Not to mention that nothing in the scene implies or indicates that they care about the names or looks of the people they kill.

In short (because I need coffee and to go make the farm quiet down), Yes, there is plenty enough in the scene as set up by the author both as  part of a character developed, and in part by the actions and reactions of the Others towards Waymar as a person. 

But this is about Dark Sister. 

[Rufus Snow]

32 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I think there are many options as to why and how BR went to that cave. I tend to be in the pool with the other cool kids that believe Coldhands was a Teeth (Tooth?) that either went ranging with BR when he first left alongside BR, or was part of a scouting party that went looking for their LC after he was missing for a time. And then things happen from there. 

I think this has the ring of truthiness. The circumstances of that ranging must have a siginifcant bearing over his decision whether to take Dark Sister with him: was he 'called' in a similar way to his own calling to Bran; did he make a Great Ranging like Mormont because there was some weird shit going down he just HAD to investigate; did he just pop out of the gate on a local jaunt; did he do the old Northern 'I'm going hunting, I may be some time' disappearing trick?

Do we have any clues about what season it was in 252AC? Whether it was summer or winter then might well be relevant, too.

[rotting sea cow]

On 8/15/2018 at 6:30 PM, Lord Varys said:

If that's true, then Egg was a moron - unless they got Blackfyre back from Haegon. Then Dark Sister was just the other sword.

Not sure what's the point of that, though, Longclaw is Longclaw and Jon doesn't need two Valyrian steel swords.

Ah..... late to the party. These are important news but not totally unexpected. The only explanation I can think of is that Dark Sister is more needed (at the plot level) at the cave than in KL or at the Wall. It is not the first time that GRRM goes against logic and arguments to make certain things happens.

Dark Sister must be at the cave, otherwise what is the point? Longclaw is at the Wall and at some point Jon will get Dawn, somehow. Getting a sword in between makes not sense. Sending back Dark Sister to KL makes no sense is you need to come first with some weird reason to allow Bloodrave to keep it in first place.

 

On 8/15/2018 at 6:30 PM, Lord Varys said:

The sadder piece seems to be that Bittersteel had no children. Another stillborn cadet branch, and such a promising one at that, considering the implications of Calla Blackfyre and Brynden Rivers possibly marrying...

What has Illyrio done to not get this most prestigious of ancestries ;-)?

Yeah, this seems sad.... So, Serra was the last Blackfyre?

Again, the only explanation I see is that GRRM left that Calla-Bittersteel thing hanging in case he needs it, which means that he found another way to explain Illyrio (and Varys?) without needing to trace another (complicated?) branch across Essos.

[bent branch]

2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

This is a pissablity (<—- see, I need coffee. Subconscious Typo). I think there are many options as to why and how BR went to that cave. I tend to be in the pool with the other cool kids that believe Coldhands was a Teeth (Tooth?) that either went ranging with BR when he first left alongside BR, or was part of a scouting party that went looking for their LC after he was missing for a time. And then things happen from there. 

It is very possible that Coldhands was one of BR's companions on that last ranging, although all the Teeth would have also been elderly at that point and BR may have take younger men with him. Of course, I don't think the Others are raising the dead or controlling them. I think the dead rising is just another part of what is fueling the Others.

[White Ravens]

9 hours ago, bent branch said:

It is very possible that Coldhands was one of BR's companions on that last ranging, although all the Teeth would have also been elderly at that point and BR may have take younger men with him. Of course, I don't think the Others are raising the dead or controlling them. I think the dead rising is just another part of what is fueling the Others.

Bloodraven was 58 when he went to the Wall in 233.  Some of the Raven's who accompanied him could have been in their late teens/early twenties. 

Bloodraven disappeared north of the wall in 252, making him 77 at the time.  Younger members of the Raven's Teeth may have been in the fourty to fifty years old range at that time.  I could see Coldhands being one of those guys.

 

[White Ravens]

On 8/15/2018 at 11:45 AM, Dorian Martell's son said:

Or it could be anywhere because 7 decades is a very long time 

That is a long time.  Ten times longer than we've waited since Dance was published. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

11 minutes ago, White Ravens said:

That is a long time.  Ten times longer than we've waited since Dance was published. 

srsly

[White Ravens]

On 8/15/2018 at 9:30 AM, Maia said:

This is more than odd indeed, given that the family Valyrian blades are supposed to stay with the family. Could it be that BR had some inkling that the Others were stirring and somehow convinced Egg that the blade would be needed at the Wall? Could he even have thought himself to be the Promised Prince, at some point? I mean, due to the Unworthy's death-bed legitimisation he was technically a prince and his origins could even be construed to be connected to "Ice and Fire" given the northern origins of the Blackwoods.

I also thought after ADwD that Meera would be sent back to the Wall with a message from him and now it seems that the Dark Sister could serve as proof of his identity and therefore authenticity of his message to NW and the North.

What I also find very interesting is GRRM saying that he "didn't think" that Bittersteel had any children. This is pretty major.

 

I think the part I bolded is a very good point.  As fans we tend to get excited about the Valyrian blades and imagine them being used to give the good guys an advantage when using them for combat.   But as you say, Dark Sister could be used as proof that Bloodraven is still alive, even though he's pushing 130 years old. 

I don't have much experience with archery and bows so I don't know how long they last but it could be that there is a weirwood bow at the cave as well, since Bloodraven and the Raven's Teeth used those.  Maybe the defense of the cave could include weirwood arrows fired from a weirwood bow.

[bent branch]

On 8/20/2018 at 2:59 PM, White Ravens said:

Bloodraven was 58 when he went to the Wall in 233.  Some of the Raven's who accompanied him could have been in their late teens/early twenties. 

Bloodraven disappeared north of the wall in 252, making him 77 at the time.  Younger members of the Raven's Teeth may have been in the fourty to fifty years old range at that time.  I could see Coldhands being one of those guys.

 

You're right. My assumption was wrong in that there is no reason to think all of the Raven's Teeth were as old as Bloodraven. This next part isn't in response to you.

 

I have also thought about it and I remain unconvinced that Bloodraven's last ranging wouldn't have looked exactly like a normal ranging with Bloodraven taking his sword with him. All the other records of the Wall don't shy away from odd actions by the Lord Commanders. If Bloodraven's last ranging had been unusual in any way it would have been recorded.

[zionius]

On 8/16/2018 at 12:21 AM, Ran said:

Not as of yet, but the organizers regularly post audio of events they've had, so I am hopeful there'll be a good-quality audio, and perhaps video as well. We'll post about it when we know.

Now available at https://soundcloud.com/sfinsfpodcast/august-2018-george-rr-martin-special-event, and I created a subtitle at https://pastebin.com/5813a6pU to aid quick search and transcription.

Interesting new stuff I've found:

• About the deleted Shrouded Lord chapter in ADWD. George called the Shrouded Lord "an amazing character who appears for the first time", and seemed to imply in the original draft, Tyrion met a real Shrouded Lord, rather than met him in dreams and visions. (1:49:20)
• Some character names do have meanings, when I dig into my "What to name your baby" books and find this name means destined for a tragic end, yeah, that'll be a good name for my character. (1:23:50)
• Stannis is a very complex character, a grey character. I didn't want to give you his thought process, just his words and actions. (1:29:00)
• I follow the characters where they lead me, and that's one reason my books take so long. You see my characters are treacherous sons of bitches and sometimes they lead me down dead alleys, and they leave me into swamps, I'm drowning there. You son of a bitch character, why did you lead me here? And then I have to go back and find a road or something that makes more sense, and I rewrite and I trashed chapters and I rethink things. (1:37:50)
• George went blank when asked about Bloodraven and Dark Sister. The question was repeated three times before he understood it. (1:29:30)
• On the other hand, George answered "I don't think Bittersteel had any children" at once. I guess that might imply he had figured out how House Blackfyre should continue in the female line, and decided it won't be descendants from Bittersteel and Calla Blackfyre.
• Questioner: "I'm wondering if Joseph Campbell had any influence on you as a writer, and if so...“ George:”No, John W. Campbell.“ John Picacio:"Now there's the answer." And thus the question finished. But in fact George got it wrong. The questioner really meant Joseph Campbell. However, John Picacio was right after all, we do know the answer now: George hasn't even heard of Joseph Campbell

[Curled Finger]

On 8/15/2018 at 1:55 PM, kissdbyfire said:

I think it's in the cave or gone/lost. Bloodraven wouldn't go on a ranging - an no ordinary ranging to boot - w/o it. And if it is, it's very likely that it will be wielded by Meera at some point, but she won't necessarily keep it. 

Great new pic.  Just finished Castle Rock.  Sissy stole the show.  

[Curled Finger]

On 8/18/2018 at 11:22 AM, Lady Anna said:

Yeah, and will it even appear? I'm not so certain...... this is one of my pet peeves about some of the discussion on the series: namely when it comes to the Blackfyres but *ahem* (that said, I do love Targaryen history). Moving on.

Just to generate more discussion, do you guys think that there's some kind of pattern as to why the sword was owned by Visenya, Aemon, Daemon, and Bloodraven, and why it was those people who had it? And do you think that, IF the sword appears by name or is recognized as Dark Sister, that that can give some clue to who will wield it next?

 

Rest assured that both Blackfyre and Dark Sister will reappear in our story.  Our best guess to DS's whereabouts is all but confirmed with this admission from GRRM.  

A pattern of swords to owners?  Like 3 sorcerers (you did not mention Maegor in your line up)  wielded Dark Sister or 2 oathbreakers held Longclaw?  Why yes, Lady, I think there is a pattern.   There isn't enough information about the other swords to draw these conclusions other than possibly the natural relationship between Oathkeeper and a true knight and Blackfyre being a king's sword?   Blackfyre was historically the sword given to the heir to the throne while DS was given to the non-heir.  Aegon 4 screwed it all up by giving BF to his bastard.   Now you could even take this 1 step further and surmise at this point BF became the sword of Bastard Kings.    Old Daemon Blackfyre had a ton of support because Aegon was such a jerk.   We don't know how Bloodraven gained possession of DS.   We read repeatedly that swords are awarded to the fighters with the most skill.   Bloodraven appears to be a fine fighter with swords as he did kick Bittersteel's butt.  The curious thing is Bloodraven preferred his bow as many before me have described.   But how did he actually get Dark Sister?   His stupid father?   The brother he loved?  He found it laying around and just picked it up?  All I am sure of is that Dark Sister and Longclaw are where they need to be and the other swords will join them--eventually.  

We had a pretty good discussion about Dark Sister and Sorcerers and any time we get going on the swords there are always predictions.  Keep in mind that Dark Sister and Widow's Wail are modified long swords.   They are shorter and slimmer, DS being fitted to a woman's hand.   That could simply be a pommel.  Women are small.  Children are small and never overlook our disabled knights and warriors who could make excellent use of shorter reach and quicker thrust/slash.  Special swords for special warriors.  By the same token you have that monster, Heartsbane, only a big man would be able to wield effectively.   Outside of the other big girls, Blackfyre and Longclaw, the VS swords we have descriptions of are regular long swords of indeterminate length, but as our friend, @Clegane'sPuppasted in, there are some standard descriptions of the configurations of period/regional weapons.   It's interesting stuff.   When you know there is no way a certain weapon could actually be utilized by a certain character you can get to a likely suspect by process of elimination.   Here is my prediction:  Arya will NEVER use or carry Heartsbane.   Ever.     

To the last of your thoughtful questions, I think the swords will pass hands and travel north.   It is those fighters in the gathering then in the final show down who ultimately "count".  It's a great discussion as this has proven as well.   We do love our magic Valyrian Steel swords around this joint.   I'm with the majority here in that the kids are likely to find and take possession of DS.   I think 1 of those kids is destined to possess her for a while.    I look forward to GRRM getting us there then showing us a few tricks this little sword can do, particularly with this kid.   Choose a kid--you have 3 and I think Hodor could count as a kid, too.  Go for it and see where your pairing leads the story yet untold in your imagination.   

[Curled Finger]

On 8/18/2018 at 5:31 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

This larger than life Dunk & Egg spymaster carried around a sword named Dark Sister that was carried round by the Dragonknight.

People explain to me how BR got the Dark Sister sword.

 

Great question.   What do you think?  We may have figured out how the Targs got DS back from Dorne in the 1st place--a whole lot of opportunities for that to happen.   It is very curious that we don't know how BR received DS.   Was it an award?  From whom?  We were trying to figure out Bloodraven's time line a little bit.   I believe he may be the last son of Aegon.   Sorry if that's not right, but I do recall that Bittersteel and Daemon are quite a bit older than Bloodraven.   There is another bastard son, but his paternity was in doubt then the heir.   So say maybe 15 or 20 years give or take, after Aemon loses Dark Sister in Dorne (because this is the only way I can see Bloodraven actually getting this sword...) the youngest son is given the ancestral non heir sword?   Not the heir, not Bittersteel, but Bloodraven?   Was he really that good in the martial arts?  Was it a pay off for his loyalty?  Or do the magic swords actually seek out their wielders in this, a sorcerer's sword?  

[Curled Finger]

On 8/19/2018 at 6:52 PM, bent branch said:

After reading through everyone's opinions I am still about 90% certain that Dark Sister is in the cave. Here are some of the thoughts I have on why Dark Sister would be there.

Someone mentioned that Mormont kept Long Claw in a cupboard and Bloodraven might do the same. I would say what Mormont did says nothing about what Bloodraven would do. Mormont had already given Long Claw to his son, Jorah. He only had it because Jorah had committed a capital offense and left it behind when he ran. Thus, it probably had bad memories associated with it for Jeor. Also, there was no need for Jeor to be carrying any sword around Castle Black. He did put on a sword when he went on the ranging, but he didn't carry any sword day to day. This would have been true for Bloodraven also.

Another argument I saw was Bloodraven was old. So? Even the old guy would take a weapon with him. Isn't it better to take the lighter one?

There is no way Bloodraven went on that last ranging without a weapon, even if he didn't intend to return. Going without a weapon would have raised an alarm as would have gifting his prestigious sword. No matter what the circumstances, Bloodraven would have acted as normal as possible while heading north of the Wall. Thus, he would have taken the sword with him.

There is the possibility that Bloodraven sent the sword back to his family (the Targaryens) in Kingslanding when he got older, just in case. But I don't see any reason he would.

Will the sword show up again? Maybe. Maybe it will be Meera that wields it. Or maybe it will be Hodor being warged by Bran who wields it. Or maybe it will remain lost. But if Meera or Hodor or Jojen or someone else gets to use Valyrian steel against an Other we will finally know whether Valyrian steel is dragonsteel. 

Maybe that is why GRRM put Dark Sister in that cave. Who knows?

Good job on the breakdown.  I have to agree with all of this.  I do hope to pique your interest with an on the subject/off the subject query.  We know that Longclaw is the Mormont ancestral sword.   This family seems to have owned Longclaw longer than nearly every other family who had/has a named Valyrian Steel sword.   If memory serves, Heartsbane is the other long time (500 years) family sword.   We have no history on this family or their sword.  We know that Jorah had the humility to leave this sword at his home when he left Westeros.  And we know Maege arranged for the sword to be sent to Jeor, her brother who forswore his family for the Nights Watch.  So as I see it, Jeor had no right to Longclaw.   It should have passed to Maege or one of her children.   Right?  I always thought of Longclaw as a Castle Black/Nights Watch sword than a Mormont sword.  So why did Maege decide this was not her family sword anymore?  

[Curled Finger]

On 8/19/2018 at 7:15 PM, bent branch said:

It's fine if you see it that way. I still say it is unlikely Bloodraven went on a ranging unarmed and that he would take a lesser weapon with him. Even if he didn't intend to return, he would have acted like he did because otherwise it may have been interpreted as him deserting rather than just going missing.

 

On 8/19/2018 at 7:34 PM, Rufus Snow said:

I don't disagree with this, but it's still possible that he thought it would serve the realm more than maintaining the morale of the Watch may have done. He might have had very few - or even no - choices. LCs are replaceable, but greenseers???? One in a thousand men can be wargs, one in a thousand wargs can be greenseers. What serves the realm more?

Look Mom, my very 1st multi quote!   I tried to quote @kissdbyfire here, too, but I obviously still have many tricks to learn.  To this discussion, is it possible Bloodraven was bound in some way to take this sword with him on the next step of his adventure with the children?   We've been batting about the whys and how BR came to possess DS with no definitive answer.  I wonder if it isn't possible that VS is Dragonsteel and BR needed to take DS with him to the children in an effort of test its effectiveness or back engineer its technology?   They were there when there was Dragonsteel after all.   Dark Sister could be in that cave for many reasons, but I get the feeling she is where she is supposed to be...with the last greenseer.  

[Seams]

12 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

...  It is very curious that we don't know how BR received DS.   Was it an award?  From whom?  ...   So say maybe 15 or 20 years give or take, after Aemon loses Dark Sister in Dorne (because this is the only way I can see Bloodraven actually getting this sword...) the youngest son is given the ancestral non heir sword?   Not the heir, not Bittersteel, but Bloodraven?   Was he really that good in the martial arts?  Was it a pay off for his loyalty?  Or do the magic swords actually seek out their wielders in this, a sorcerer's sword?  

Magic swords may seek out their wielders. I like that. I think we see something similar with horses - Jaime has horses named Honor and Glory; sometimes he rides one, sometimes the other. Sandor Clegane's horse, Stranger, won't let anyone else ride him.

It also fits with the stories of the Iron Throne deciding who is eligible to sit in it, causing nicks and cuts on those rulers it finds somehow unworthy.

But my slow re-read of the Dunk & Egg stories is telling me that Bloodraven has a unique role in not only identifying (selecting?) the next worthy king, but also in seeing to it that a king gets the experience and protection he needs to be a good monarch. So Dark Sister may have gone to Bloodraven while he figures out how to get Westeros back into the hands of someone who has the wisdom and insight and magic needed to be a good ruler.

Is this similar to the role originally played by Visenya, who helped Aegon the Conqueror to be wiser and more effective? I would say that Visenya and Bloodraven were both willing to get their hands dirty and do some behind-the-scenes work on behalf of the nominal ruler in order to keep things running smoothly.

This idea of Dark Sister in the hands of the behind-the-scenes "fixer" raises the interesting question of whether some monarchs make it through the screening process without Bloodraven's approval: didn't he prefer Prince Baelor over Prince Maekar? Maybe the ends justified the means, and Baelor had to die to help Aegon V reach the throne. By the time Aerys was ready to ascend, Bloodraven and Dark Sister were in exile. Now Bloodraven is probably close to the end of an already extraordinarily long life, and he will need to choose a new fixer who can keep the next good king or queen in power.

[Firefae]

21 minutes ago, Seams said:

Magic swords may seek out their wielders. I like that. I think we see something similar with horses - Jaime has horses named Honor and Glory; sometimes he rides one, sometimes the other. Sandor Clegane's horse, Stranger, won't let anyone else ride him.

It also fits with the stories of the Iron Throne deciding who is eligible to sit in it, causing nicks and cuts on those rulers it finds somehow unworthy.

 

But how would that work exactly? We was people give Valyrian swords to other people. Jeor Mormont gave longclaw to Jon and nothing special happened. Nor has it in any other situation where people are handing over swords.

The Iron Throne is different. That chair is just really dangerous, lol,, and when people move their arms without thinking they are very likely to get cut by it. Aegon I cut himself to the Throne too and he was the one who build it, lol.

And horses are actually living creatures. A horse like Stranger is just really sensitive and wild and only trusts his own rider, that also happens with horses in real life. But there are also horses who accept multiple riders without question.

[Curled Finger]

56 minutes ago, Seams said:

Magic swords may seek out their wielders. I like that. I think we see something similar with horses - Jaime has horses named Honor and Glory; sometimes he rides one, sometimes the other. Sandor Clegane's horse, Stranger, won't let anyone else ride him.

It also fits with the stories of the Iron Throne deciding who is eligible to sit in it, causing nicks and cuts on those rulers it finds somehow unworthy.

But my slow re-read of the Dunk & Egg stories is telling me that Bloodraven has a unique role in not only identifying (selecting?) the next worthy king, but also in seeing to it that a king gets the experience and protection he needs to be a good monarch. So Dark Sister may have gone to Bloodraven while he figures out how to get Westeros back into the hands of someone who has the wisdom and insight and magic needed to be a good ruler.

Is this similar to the role originally played by Visenya, who helped Aegon the Conqueror to be wiser and more effective? I would say that Visenya and Bloodraven were both willing to get their hands dirty and do some behind-the-scenes work on behalf of the nominal ruler in order to keep things running smoothly.

This idea of Dark Sister in the hands of the behind-the-scenes "fixer" raises the interesting question of whether some monarchs make it through the screening process without Bloodraven's approval: didn't he prefer Prince Baelor over Prince Maekar? Maybe the ends justified the means, and Baelor had to die to help Aegon V reach the throne. By the time Aerys was ready to ascend, Bloodraven and Dark Sister were in exile. Now Bloodraven is probably close to the end of an already extraordinarily long life, and he will need to choose a new fixer who can keep the next good king or queen in power.

The connections are there, old friend.   If rumors of sorcery are true about Vysenia and Bloodraven, it may be a factor.   You know we have many friends who believe the VS swords "drink the souls" of those they serve or kill.   There is a lot of death to sift through to determine if this is true or false and I've not made the appropriate progress to make a decision.   I do think there is something to "roles" our heroes play, presumably for the greater good.   I do believe that Dark Sister is a Sorcerer's Sword, just as I believe Longclaw is an oathbreaker's sword.   I stand behind this just as much as I am committed to there being a final quest involving a group of heroes that will require a certain ratio of magic to brute force and skill.   

Back in the old topic I really did try to find correlations between all the known wielders of Dark Sister, with Aemon the Dragonknight being the obvious square peg in the line up.   Though not a sorcerer, he was a knight's knight and a man of honor.   Does this speak to all the swords fitting a type of hero?   Probably.   Maybe not.   I don't know.   However, you've brought up some very interesting comparisons between king makers in Vysenia and Bloodraven.   

For all it's worth I do agree with your ideas about the horses and throne.  As I previously stated, Dark Sister and Longclaw are exactly where they should be.