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Lord Varys

The Illyrio/Aegon thing

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If we take George's words on Bittersteel's children as confirmation that he definitely had none - which seems not unlikely at this point - then how do we spin the whole Illyrio/Aegon thing?

Are the chances better now that Aegon is actually Rhaegar's son?

Is Aegon just Illyrio's son with a whore with no special blood of note whatsoever?

Does it make more sense now to go with the idea that Prince Maegor Targaryen might figure in this equation somehow?

Or do we go we just go with Varys/Illyrio/Serra/whoever being fruits from different branches of the pretty big Blackfyre family tree, with no descendants of Bittersteel or Aerion Targaryen figuring into that all that much?

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This is the tweet:

You have to go further down to get to the thing about Bittersteel.

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2 minutes ago, Ser Leftwich said:

 

Thanks!

I loved the idea of Varys being a descendant of Bittersteel and continuing his work to put a Blackfyre on the throne. Oh well, guess that puts an end to that.

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I'm very likely in the minority, but if Aegon turns out to be the real deal, then I'll be so very okay with it. I sort of thought that there was a foreshadowing of something in a Jon chapter back in AGoT. I've also come to think that there's a lot more to the black dragon turning into a red one. 

That said, it also dashes a speculation that I had that he would have been only Serra's son, as opposed to Illyrio and Serra's. I thought we would get a flip of the script on this one and that Young Griff would turn out to be a bastard. A bastard started the Blackfyre line and a bastard would end it, type of situation.

I mean we have Ned who raised Jon because he loved his sister and made her promises and we have Jon Conn who has raised Young Griff because he loved Rhaegar and maybe Illyrio would have taken care of Serra's son because he loved her that much and loved her son by extension.

Edited by Widow's Watch

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23 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Are the chances better now that Aegon is actually Rhaegar's son?

Is Aegon just Illyrio's son with a whore with no special blood of note whatsoever?

Does it make more sense now to go with the idea that Prince Maegor Targaryen might figure in this equation somehow?

Or do we go we just go with Varys/Illyrio/Serra/whoever being fruits from different branches of the pretty big Blackfyre family tree, with no descendants of Bittersteel or Aerion Targaryen figuring into that all that much?

While this revelation destroys my preference for Varys to be a descendant of Bittersteel, it doesn't affect my thoughts on the identity of AeGriff. I believe Rhaegar's son was truly murdered, and that AeGriff is someone else.

I acknowledge that it is entirely possible that AeGriff is descended from nobodies with the right look, but I can't help but like the idea that he is actually descended from Targaryens.

The Blackfyres descended from Aegon IV's legitimized bastard get more and more press as the series goes on, but they aren't mentioned until well into ASOS, and their male line is extinct anyways.

Aerion and the passing over of his son for Aegon V, on the other hand, are mentioned within the first chapters of ACOK, and I think AeGriff being descended from Prince Maegor would be very interesting.

Right now, I am liking the idea of AeGriff being descended from Aerion paternally and Daemon maternally.

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20 minutes ago, EloImFizzy said:

According to the wiki at least Daemon had other daughters besides Calla, so couldn't Aegon be a descendant of one of them?

He could be, but the fact that House Blackfyre is extinct in the male line doesn't necessarily mean that Daemon's sons do not have living descendants, just that they do not have living male line descendants. 

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21 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

While this revelation destroys my preference for Varys to be a descendant of Bittersteel, it doesn't affect my thoughts on the identity of AeGriff. I believe Rhaegar's son was truly murdered, and that AeGriff is someone else.

Varys' parentage is sort of another matter. Our favorite eunuch most definitely didn't father Prince Aegon.

21 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I acknowledge that it is entirely possible that AeGriff is descended from nobodies with the right look, but I can't help but like the idea that he is actually descended from Targaryens.

Originally, this was one of my favorites. It plays best with the whole 'power is where people believe it is' thing. Varys can be a descendant of Targaryens/Blackfyres but Illyrio might just pay his debts of affection and provide Varys with the boy to shape into the king he could not father himself. Varys could also be the last scion of House Blackfyre - through the female line.

21 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

The Blackfyres descended from Aegon IV's legitimized bastard get more and more press as the series goes on, but they aren't mentioned until well into ASOS, and their male line is extinct anyways.

Aerion and the passing over of his son for Aegon V, on the other hand, are mentioned within the first chapters of ACOK, and I think AeGriff being descended from Prince Maegor would be very interesting.

It could be interesting, but Aerion's son is never mentioned again after ACoK, or is he? But the Blackfyres are.

And considering Maegor's age I only see a chance for Varys/Illyrio/Serra/whoever being an illegitimate descendant of Maegor's - not a legitimate son or daughter. The Iron Throne would have to be completely stupid not to connect Varys or Illyrio to Maegor.

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5 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Does anyone know what GRRM's remarks were on the name of the latest Princess of Dorne?

http://www.westeros.org/News/Entry/GRRM_at_SF_in_SF

I think Ashaya asked whether Loreza was the name of Doran's mother, using the naming pattern of Oberyn's daughters by Ellaria, or something along those lines.

George apparently still doesn't know (or care) how the name of that woman is - which doesn't reflect all that well on him. She should be one of the more important political figures of recent years, and it is not that George didn't even a considerable number of male and female names for Dornish princes and princesses from Meria Martell to Trystane Martell.

And it is not that there wouldn't been many names to reuse - Meria, Deria, Mariah, Aliandra - and, of course, Nymeria.

It would also be great to learn who Doran and Oberyn's father was.

And speaking about that - @Ran and everybody else: Oberyn's duel with Lord Yronwood did not, in fact, take place while Doran Martell was already Prince of Dorne, nor could Doran have been the one to move swiftly to resolve the situation. The Arianne chapter from TWoW claiming this is wrong of that matter. Doran may have advised his mother on the issue, but he couldn't have been the one making the decision. That would have been X Nymeria Martell, the Princess of Dorne.

And the section dealing with that would have been the ideal place to actually introduce the name of the Princess of Dorne - if George makes up his mind on that one.

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1 minute ago, Ran said:

I'm not sure why I'm being tagged on this?

Because you might be able to pass that on to George ;-)?

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Just now, Lord Varys said:

Because you might be able to pass that on to George ;-)?

Oh. Pretty certain we already did.

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24 minutes ago, Ran said:

Oh. Pretty certain we already did.

Sure, but it is one of the things one should not forget when TWoW is finally finished. This is not just some mistake but actually an opportunity to make quite a few fans happy - not the least you two guys ;-).

I mean, who cares about Merias and Derias and Aliandras - or Ormund Baratheon and Lyarra Stark - when the Princess of Dorne is missing...?

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

If we take George's words on Bittersteel's children as confirmation that he definitely had none - which seems not unlikely at this point - then how do we spin the whole Illyrio/Aegon thing?

Are the chances better now that Aegon is actually Rhaegar's son?

Is Aegon just Illyrio's son with a whore with no special blood of note whatsoever?

Does it make more sense now to go with the idea that Prince Maegor Targaryen might figure in this equation somehow?

Or do we go we just go with Varys/Illyrio/Serra/whoever being fruits from different branches of the pretty big Blackfyre family tree, with no descendants of Bittersteel or Aerion Targaryen figuring into that all that much?

Does it even matter?  It's not like he can prove his lineage.  

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I don't think it changes the odds as to whether Aegon is Rhaegar's son or not. The speculation on Aegon's lineage was always something made up out of whole cloth. That is why I never factored that into my calculations as to whether Aegon was Rhaegar's son or not. I still think Aegon is most likely exactly who he is purported to be, but it is possible he is just some kid Illyrio and Varys found to put forward. Of course, the reasons why they would be doing this have been shot to shit.

I will say I was totally convinced that Illyrio was the descendent of Bittersteel and Calla Blackfyre. I will have to reconsider how this affects my understanding of what is going on in the story.

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