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The Illyrio/Aegon thing


Lord Varys

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Illyrio doesn't misdirect Tyrion when he dismisses the differences between a black and a red dragon. He is also pretty convincing when he mocks Tyrion for his ridiculous identification with the heraldic lion of House Lannister. That seems to be genuine to me. Illyrio Mopatis is a Pentoshi (or at least an Essosi) by birth, and he cares little and less for the savage and backwater customs of the Westerosi.

Even if Aegon is a Blackfyre descendant, Illyrio is not motivated by revenge, nor is he lying when he makes it clear that the Golden Company want home. They don't want to seat 'the rightful king' on the throne. And it is quite clear that he is right there. The officers give Aegon a lukewarm reception and it is quite clear that Strickland believes they need Daenerys more than Aegon because Daenerys means legitimacy and dragons, not Aegon. They don't care that she is a Targaryen, they actually like that she is one. They are more than willing to work with her and Viserys III until it gets too complicated.

After the Rebellion, the Blackfyre descendants, the Golden Company, and the surviving Targaryens all sit in the same boat. They can work together now. The past is the past. In the present they have common enemies.

Unless Tristan Rivers is some moron (which might be the case - or not) the Golden Company and Viserys III/Drogo's Dothraki were supposed to work together. This is huge. It really means the Dothraki were not supposed to be some smokescreen - they were the real deal and should really assist in the Targaryen restoration project and help bring it about.

Whether Prince Aegon would have gone with the Golden Company and not only gone to Westeros later on - sort of as a Jaehaerys I to Viserys III's Maegor - is unclear at this point.

But one certainly could see Aegon as Viserys III's acknowledged heir who is innocent of all the atrocities the horselords and the sellswords commit only to take over after the dirty work is done and a new king can take a more conciliatory approach...

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3 hours ago, bent branch said:

I have decided you are just incapable of understanding. Illyrio is not lying. He is stating a bald fact. No Westerosi lord is going to rise for a Essosi to take the throne. The black dragon is dead. It died on the Stepstones. Daemon's descendents through the female line are nobodies is Westeros. Truth hurts.

Were you you abused as a child? Did your parents yell at you often? Were you bullied? 

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16 minutes ago, bent branch said:

Were you raised to believe that totally ignoring the point people are making is polite discourse?

No, but I have come to learn that individuals can look at the same set of facts and reach very different conclusions, which is why I respect your opinion even when I disagree with you. 

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On 8/26/2018 at 8:24 PM, bent branch said:

Just because there is lots of opportunity does not mean that there is where GRRM is going. If the Blackfyres followed Targaryen marriage practices, then Daemon's daughters where probably married to his sons. If this is the case, then there would be fewer of them than you are imagining, since dying out in the male line would be the same as dying out in the female line. That is why the Bittersteel/Calla thing was so promising. There should also be more evidence of this conspiracy if this is where GRRM is going. I have been told I have a closed mind on this issue because I won't first imagine it is true and then interpret the "evidence" with that belief in mind. What is being described is called confirmation bias. 

It would be more difficult for the Blackfyres to follow the practice of only marrying other Targaryens because there just wouldn't be that many available to them (unless there are spare Brightflame bastards around). The fact that Daemon promised his daughter to Aegor seems indicative of him not thinking only sibling marriage is good enough for his kids.

The idea also seems in tension with the theory that Serra the Lyseni brothel slave was a Blackfyre. The pickier they are with their kids' marriages, the less likely it would seem a descendant would wind up there. Although if they were producing lots of bastards (like Bella), that's another story.

On 8/27/2018 at 8:56 AM, The Sleeper said:

For all we know, all this is irrelevant to the Blackfyre and it is the Toynes we should be looking at. After all there are many more references to the Kingswood brotherhood than to the Blackfyres in the main series and it was Myles Toyne who recruited Connington and made the pact with Illyrio. As a family they would bear a grudge against the Targaryens going back to Aegon the Unworthy. 

There seem to be multiple grudges involved. The Toynes became regicidal traitors after Terrence Toyne & Bethany Bracken were caught & killed horribly, although Simon Toyne was still leading the Kingswood Brotherhood when Jaime was a squire, so it's not clear when some fled to Essos (if Myles really is a Toyne). Bittersteel had been a Bracken bastard presumably unhappy about that, as well as losing Barba's teats to the Blackwoods. Franklyn Flowers particularly hates the Fossoway's for the rape of his mother (resulting in his own conception), while Rolly Duckfield was wronged by the Caswells. Connington, like the Martells, remains a steadfast opponent of the Baratheon regime. I really don't know about all the non-Westerosi in the Golden Company though.

 

On 8/27/2018 at 10:15 AM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

From TMK:

Lord Bloodraven looked up from his parchment. "That is for King Aerys to decide… but Daemon has four younger brothers, and sisters as well. Should I be so foolish as to remove his pretty head, his mother will mourn, his friends will curse me for a kinslayer, and Bittersteel will crown his brother Haegon. 

It occurs to me that since Rohanne outlived Daemon, she could have had more children, perhaps some of those unnamed sisters.

4 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

What would have happened to these men once Aegon landed and rallied Westeros to him? They would have died or fled across the narrow sea once more.

Tristan Rivers said fleeing back across the narrow sea is precisely the plan if the realm doesn't rise for Aegon. But I do imagine if they planned on permanently settling in Westeros they'd have to eliminate the Dothraki or pay the bulk of them to go back to Essos.

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Even if Aegon is a Blackfyre descendant, Illyrio is not motivated by revenge, nor is he lying when he makes it clear that the Golden Company want home. They don't want to seat 'the rightful king' on the throne. And it is quite clear that he is right there. The officers give Aegon a lukewarm reception and it is quite clear that Strickland believes they need Daenerys more than Aegon because Daenerys means legitimacy and dragons, not Aegon. They don't care that she is a Targaryen, they actually like that she is one. They are more than willing to work with her and Viserys III until it gets too complicated.

That speaks to the point I was trying to make. They are weighing the options pragmatically for themselves rather than just following someone's orders.

One thing that occurs to me: if Aegon is supposed to be a Blackfyre via his Lyseni prostitute mother, would that be sufficient for the Golden Company? It's not like he has a Blackfyre version of Daenerys to shore up his legitimacy, and he still wouldn't have any kind of noble name (which means little to Essosi, but the GC is heavily Westerosi if questionable in their claimed houses). And if there was anyone around to verify Serra's ancestry, why were the remaining Blackfyre supporters unable to keep her from being sold to or born into a brothel? It's more plausible she'd wind up there in a Bella situation, but Bella's claimed descent hardly seems acknowledged by anybody.

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While there are clues in the books that Aegon is alive and is real, there are also clues that he is an imposter who doesn't know it.

Aegon being a fraud would actually make that plot line far less interesting. I didn't read any of GRRM's many side books, the Blackfyre Rebellion is hardly mentioned in the main series and should be more of a history lesson/warning about those with strong claims (something that Cat worries about and the many different claims we see throughout the story). Anything from outside the main series should not influence the series at all. If Aegon is exposed as a fake readers won't care because it won't add any importance his existance, Westeros won't care about some fraud from Essos. Everyone knows about Dany so there is no reason to doubt who she is.

What exactly is exciting about Dany vs some fraud? Nothing. Targaryen vs Targaryen is far more interesting and will heavily affect Dany, Westerosi opinion on Dany, and will divide Westeros even more than it already is.

I vote for Aegon being real so we get a better story as a result.

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11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Unless Tristan Rivers is some moron (which might be the case - or not) the Golden Company and Viserys III/Drogo's Dothraki were supposed to work together. This is huge. It really means the Dothraki were not supposed to be some smokescreen - they were the real deal and should really assist in the Targaryen restoration project and help bring it about.

Yeah, that statement by Tristan Rivers is very strange. How does he expect that Viserys (and Daenerys, the GC and/or Aegon) are supposed to gain legitimacy and the support of the remaining (and weakened) Targaryen loyalists when they come backed by the Mongol horde? The Dothraki could easily make the ravaging of the Riverlands by Tywin Lannister looks like as a child play, yet he does think it could help their cause. I think, either the statement is badly written or the character does not have the full information.

If we ignore that, Varys-Illyrio plan ca 298 AC can be easily summarized as: Viserys invades Westeros with the Dothraki whilst Varys undermines Robert's coalition. Viserys wins and kill Robert and defeat the Targaryen enemies, maybe even winning the IT for a while. Aegon, with the support of the GC and the Targaryen loyalists (who stayed away of the conflict because no one allies with the Dothraki) comes to to clean up the mess.

Basically, the Mad King's son against beloved Rhaegar's one. Stuff for songs.

What plan (if any) they had ca 280 AC is anybody guess.

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On 8/27/2018 at 2:33 PM, The Sleeper said:

The whole idea of these two individuals setting up a twenty year long plan to install a king in a another continent is hard to believe to begin with. And yet they have.

That is why I am assuming personal motivation. 

Tyrion sees right away that Illyrio has a personal motivation in this. 

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There is something in this venture worth more to you than coin or castles. - Tyrion

Otherwise, there is no reason to dedicate this much time to such a giant scheme.

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10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Tristan Rivers said fleeing back across the narrow sea is precisely the plan if the realm doesn't rise for Aegon. But I do imagine if they planned on permanently settling in Westeros they'd have to eliminate the Dothraki or pay the bulk of them to go back to Essos.

I doubt the lords would forget that the men of the Golden Company came with a horde of Dothraki to conquer Westeros. Even if they turned their cloak, I think it would have been too little too late. I think my point mainly is that if the plan was really for the GC to invade with the Dothraki to put Viserys on the throne, then it shows how little Illyrio cares about the GC. He doesn't give a crap about them. 

1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Tyrion sees right away that Illyrio has a personal motivation in this. 

Illyrio seems to really care about the kid. If he had him in Pentos for 5 years before Jon Connington took him in charge, then there's a good chance he may have developed some fatherly feelings toward him. It doesn't seem like Illyrio had any children from his first wife or his second one. It's possible Aegon filled a void for him.

But I wonder if there aren't some feelings of guilt playing into this as well, specifically on Varys's end. Whatever Varys was trying to achieve by undermining Rhaegar's plans, he messed up and perhaps saving Aegon's life was a way to try and redeem himself. Everyone can blame Rhaegar and Lyanna and Brandon for the all the crazy and Robert's Rebellion and the downfall of the Targaryens, but Varys's role in this cannot be disregarded.

Everyone is expecting Aegon to be a fake. My husband read ADWD a grand total of one time and right away, he thought Aegon was fake. And maybe that's the whole idea, that we are supposed to think he is fake. 

My personal wish from the go is that the kid is real, so I am extremely biased.

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25 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

I doubt the lords would forget that the men of the Golden Company came with a horde of Dothraki to conquer Westeros. Even if they turned their cloak, I think it would have been too little too late. I think my point mainly is that if the plan was really for the GC to invade with the Dothraki to put Viserys on the throne, then it shows how little Illyrio cares about the GC. He doesn't give a crap about them. 

I think we are making a mistake in expecting a good plan. At the time Dany did not have dragons or armies of Unsullied and freed slaves and armies don't grow on trees. The Golden Company was not enough and a Dothraki horde, especially Drogo's could simply be their best prospect. Also it looks like the GC were in on the Aegon deal. After all it was Toyne who made the pact with Illyrio and probably flagged Connington for. One should also note their distinct lack of surprise at Aegon's big announcement. That is why I thought that Aegon could be a Blackfyre. Truth be told it isn't really necessary. 

 

36 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Illyrio seems to really care about the kid. If he had him in Pentos for 5 years before Jon Connington took him in charge, then there's a good chance he may have developed some fatherly feelings toward him. It doesn't seem like Illyrio had any children from his first wife or his second one. It's possible Aegon filled a void for him.

I have assumed that Illyrio had been as invested as Varys, because I thought of them as a unit. Thinking about it, this isn't the case. While Varys has indeed devoted his life to this, Illyrio played bank, functionary and procurer for Varys while sitting in Pentos stuffing himself. Not to mention the tidy profit he made from selling Dany to Drogo. 

 

44 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

But I wonder if there aren't some feelings of guilt playing into this as well, specifically on Varys's end. Whatever Varys was trying to achieve by undermining Rhaegar's plans, he messed up and perhaps saving Aegon's life was a way to try and redeem himself. Everyone can blame Rhaegar and Lyanna and Brandon for the all the crazy and Robert's Rebellion and the downfall of the Targaryens, but Varys's role in this cannot be disregarded.

That may certainly be the case. 

 

47 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Everyone is expecting Aegon to be a fake. My husband read ADWD a grand total of one time and right away, he thought Aegon was fake. And maybe that's the whole idea, that we are supposed to think he is fake. 

My personal wish from the go is that the kid is real, so I am extremely biased.

I consider him to be fake as the greater likelihood, due to the tale of his salvation seeming far fetched. It is not impossible though and would seem more likely in a different context. Suppose that Varys did see the possibility of the city falling well in advance and the purpose of the false infant was to buy time. 

In the end however he is the mummer's dragon. He is Varys's creation, whether he is real or not and ultimately his actual origin may not matter much. There is no way for his origin to be proved one way or the other in a matter that would be universally acceptable. Other kinds of revelations would affect only the characters they are made to, not the political stage at large. It is clear however that Varys raised him to specifications and seems to have been inspired by Egg, which considering his own origins would not be much of a surprise.

I am starting to think that this whole preoccupation with the Blackfyres is missing the point. Which ultimately is the demonstration of Varys's maxim about power in action. 

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On 8/15/2018 at 3:35 PM, Lord Varys said:

Is Aegon just Illyrio's son with a whore with no special blood of note whatsoever?

This strikes me as highly unlikely. Tyrion has close acquaintance with both men - Illyrio and fAegon. A sharp eyed observer like him would certainly spot the slightest resemblance. Instead he names him son of Rhaegar* - which should really be enough to remove the "f" from Aegon's name. But one could question how if that is so, could D&D simply leave a competing heir out of the story? 

Could be his war in the south does not go well, and his impact on the plot is negligible. So though he is legitimate, D&D can leave him out without changing the ending - maybe. or maybe they do change the ending? Would not shock me.

*I don't recall that Tyrion ever met Rhaegar, but he certainly heard plenty about him given that Cersei was to wed the Targaryen prince at one point. 

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1 hour ago, honeyed chicken said:

This strikes me as highly unlikely. Tyrion has close acquaintance with both men - Illyrio and fAegon. A sharp eyed observer like him would certainly spot the slightest resemblance. Instead he names him son of Rhaegar* - which should really be enough to remove the "f" from Aegon's name. But one could question how if that is so, could D&D simply leave a competing heir out of the story? 

Could be his war in the south does not go well, and his impact on the plot is negligible. So though he is legitimate, D&D can leave him out without changing the ending - maybe. or maybe they do change the ending? Would not shock me.

*I don't recall that Tyrion ever met Rhaegar, but he certainly heard plenty about him given that Cersei was to wed the Targaryen prince at one point. 

I do not believe Tyrions statements with regard to Aegon should be taken at face value, because we are deliberately left out of Tyrions thoughts on this.  Isn't is strange that even though we are in Tyrions POV we never see him questioning the scenario?  We don't get his actual thoughts.  He names him the son of Rhaegar, and a prince and some other such things, but that does not mean he buys it as legitimate in his internal thoughts, he only figures out what they want to present, not whether it is true or not.  I would not be surprised at all for Tyrion to tell Dany of Ilyrio's fake the first time he meets her.

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31 minutes ago, honeyed chicken said:

This strikes me as highly unlikely. Tyrion has close acquaintance with both men - Illyrio and fAegon. A sharp eyed observer like him would certainly spot the slightest resemblance. Instead he names him son of Rhaegar* - which should really be enough to remove the "f" from Aegon's name.

Tyrion is highly unlikely to have ever seen Prince Rhaegar in person, and almost certain to have never seen Prince Aegon in person.

- Tyrion was only two or three when Tywin held the tourney at Lannisport in honor of the birth of Viserys in 276 AC
- Tyrion was only nine or ten when Rhaegar was killed and Aegon was murdered in 283 AC
- Tyrion appears to have first come to King's Landing when his sister Cersei wed King Robert (AGOT: Tyrion II)

In fact, Lord Tywin himself is almost certain to have never seen Aegon's face in person.

- Rhaegar and Elia were wed in 280 AC (TWOIAF: Aerys II)
- Princess Rhaenys was born in [the last months of] 280 AC (TWOIAF: Aerys II)
- Elia was bedridden for half a year after giving birth to Rhaenys [so into 281 AC] (ADWD: Griffen Reborn)
- Aegon would have had to be conceived in 281 AC, and born in the last months of 281 AC, or very start of 282 AC
- Tywin resigned in 281 AC before the Harrenhal Tourney (ASOS: Jaime II)
- The Harrenhal Tourney took place in the last months of 281 AC (TWOIAF: Year of the False Spring)

As for what Tyrion would certainly spot or make note of, he neither made note of a resemblance or lack of resemblance between Fat-Aegon IV-looking Illyrio and the statue that he claims depicts him as a sixteen year old, but whose description is much like that of AeGriff.

Regarding how Tyrion identifies AeGrif, he identifies him using the story he almost certainly learned from Haldon after defeating him in cyvasse for secrets, which he then uses to get a reaction out of the boy in the next chapter to confirm that it is the story the boy believes. Neither of which confirms that Tyrion knows nor even believes AeGriff to be Rhaegar's dead son.

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"I only need half my wits to be a match for you." Tyrion moved up his heavy horse to support the light. "Perhaps you would care to wager on the outcome?"

The Halfmaester arched an eyebrow. "How much?"

"I have no coin. We'll play for secrets."

"Griff would cut my tongue out."

"Afraid, are you? I would be if I were you."

"The day you defeat me at cyvasse will be the day turtles crawl out my arse." The Halfmaester moved his spears. "You have your wager, little man."

Tyrion stretched a hand out for his dragon.

It was three hours later when the little man finally crept back up on deck to empty his bladder. Duck was helping Yandry wrestle down the sail, while Ysilla took the tiller. The sun hung low above the reed-beds along the western bank, as the wind began to gust and rip. I need that skin of wine, the dwarf thought. His legs were cramped from squatting on that stool, and he felt so light-headed that he was lucky not to fall into the river.

"Yollo," Duck called. "Where's Haldon?"

"He's taken to his bed, in some discomfort. There are turtles crawling out his arse." He left the knight to sort that out and crawled up the ladder to the cabin roof. Off to the east, there was darkness gathering behind a rocky island.

...

It was another turtle, a horned turtle of enormous size, its dark green shell mottled with brown and overgrown with water moss and crusty black river molluscs. It raised its head and bellowed, a deep-throated thrumming roar louder than any warhorn that Tyrion had ever heard. "We are blessed," Ysilla was crying loudly, as tears streamed down her face. "We are blessed, we are blessed."

Duck was hooting, and Young Griff too. Haldon came out on deck to learn the cause of the commotion … but too late. The giant turtle had vanished below the water once again. "What was the cause of all that noise?" the Halfmaester asked.

"A turtle," said Tyrion. "A turtle bigger than this boat."

"It was him," cried Yandry. "The Old Man of the River."

And why not? Tyrion grinned. Gods and wonders always appear, to attend the birth of kings.


(ADWD: Tyrion IV)

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"You're a dwarf," Young Griff said scornfully.

"My secret is revealed," Tyrion agreed. "Aye, I'm less than half of Haldon, and no one gives a mummer's fart whether I live or die." Least of all me.

"You, though … you are everything."

"Dwarf," said Griff, "I warned you—"

A wail came shivering through the fog, faint and high.

Lemore whirled, trembling. "Seven save us all."

The broken bridge was a bare five yards ahead. Around its piers, the water rippled white as the foam from a madman's mouth. Forty feet above, the stone men moaned and muttered beneath a flickering lamp. Most took no more notice of the Shy Maid than of a drifting log. Tyrion clutched his torch tighter and found that he was holding his breath. And then they were beneath the bridge, white walls heavy with curtains of grey fungus looming to either side, water foaming angrily around them. For a moment it looked as though they might crash into the right-hand pier, but Duck raised his pole and shoved off, back into the center of the channel, and a few heartbeats later they were clear.

Tyrion had no sooner exhaled than Young Griff grabbed hold of his arm. "What do you mean? I am everything? What did you mean by that? Why am I everything?"

"Why," said Tyrion, "if the stone men had taken Yandry or Griff or our lovely Lemore, we would have grieved for them and gone on. Lose you, and this whole enterprise is undone, and all those years of feverish plotting by the cheesemonger and the eunuch will have been for naught … isn't that so?"

The boy looked to Griff. "He knows who I am."

If I did not know before, I would now. By then the Shy Maid was well downstream of the Bridge of Dream. All that remained was a dwindling light astern, and soon enough that would be gone as well. "You're Young Griff, son of Griff the sellsword," said Tyrion. "Or perhaps you are the Warrior in mortal guise. Let me take a closer look." He held up his torch, so that the light washed over Young Griff's face.

"Leave off," Griff commanded, "or you will wish you had."

The dwarf ignored him. "The blue hair makes your eyes seem blue, that's good. And the tale of how you color it in honor of your dead Tyroshi mother was so touching it almost made me cry. Still, a curious man might wonder why some sellsword's whelp would need a soiled septa to instruct him in the Faith, or a chainless maester to tutor him in history and tongues. And a clever man might question why your father would engage a hedge knight to train you in arms instead of simply sending you off to apprentice with one of the free companies. It is almost as if someone wanted to keep you hidden whilst still preparing you for … what? Now, there's a puzzlement, but I'm sure that in time it will come to me. I must admit, you have noble features for a dead boy."

The boy flushed. "I am not dead."

"How not? My lord father wrapped your corpse in a crimson cloak and laid you down beside your sister at the foot of the Iron Throne, his gift to the new king. Those who had the stomach to lift the cloak said that half your head was gone."

The lad backed off a step, confused. "Your—?"

"—father, aye. Tywin of House Lannister. Perhaps you may have heard of him."

Young Griff hesitated. "Lannister? Your father—"

"—is dead. At my hand. If it please Your Grace to call me Yollo or Hugor, so be it, but know that I was born Tyrion of House Lannister, trueborn son of Tywin and Joanna, both of whom I slew. Men will tell you that I am a kingslayer, a kinslayer, and a liar, and all of that is true … but then, we are a company of liars, are we not? Take your feigned father. Griff, is it?" The dwarf sniggered. "You should thank the gods that Varys the Spider is a part of this plot of yours. Griff would not have fooled the cockless wonder for an instant, no more than it did me. No lord, my lordship says, no knight. And I'm no dwarf. Just saying a thing does not make it true. Who better to raise Prince Rhaegar's infant son than Prince Rhaegar's dear friend Jon Connington, once Lord of Griffin's Roost and Hand of the King?"


(ADWD: Tyrion V)

 

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1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

I think the Blackfyres are much bigger in speculation than they will be in the actual story.

Maybe, but that's not really the point. In the HotU vision, the mummer's dragon is listed as one of the "lies" that Dany will slay, and if he is legitimate then he isn't a lie. So I think that GRRM had a Perkin Warbeck-type pretender in mind for a long time and invented the Blackfyres later on to flesh him out a bit.

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5 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Maybe, but that's not really the point. In the HotU vision, the mummer's dragon is listed as one of the "lies" that Dany will slay, and if he is legitimate then he isn't a lie. So I think that GRRM had a Perkin Warbeck-type pretender in mind for a long time and invented the Blackfyres later on to flesh him out a bit.

I think the vision is more about Azor Ahai/ the Prince that was promised than about the claim to the Iron Throne, but still does not predispose one for Aegon to be genuine. It includes Stannis as well and his claim is not in question. It is competing to Dany's but he certainly is Robert's heir. The falsehood in his case refers to the prophesy. 

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10 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

Not to mention the tidy profit he made from selling Dany to Drogo. 
 

Insofar as there was a trade, it was supposed to be Dany for the support of Drogo's khalasar against the Baratheon regime. Except that Viserys had to be told that the Dothraki do not sell each other such things, they give gifts at such time as they deem proper.

9 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I do not believe Tyrions statements with regard to Aegon should be taken at face value, because we are deliberately left out of Tyrions thoughts on this.  Isn't is strange that even though we are in Tyrions POV we never see him questioning the scenario?  We don't get his actual thoughts.  He names him the son of Rhaegar, and a prince and some other such things, but that does not mean he buys it as legitimate in his internal thoughts, he only figures out what they want to present, not whether it is true or not.  I would not be surprised at all for Tyrion to tell Dany of Ilyrio's fake the first time he meets her.

At the time, they were presenting Young Griff as the son of a sellsword and a Tyroshi (though not very convincingly). As for Tyrion's own thoughts, when Young Griff reacts badly to losing a cyvasse game after following Tyrion's advice, Tyrion thinks to himself "He may well be a Targaryen after all".

 

8 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Tyrion is highly unlikely to have ever seen Prince Rhaegar in person, and almost certain to have never seen Prince Aegon in person.

Young Griff asks Tyrion about Rhaegar, and Tyrion claims to have seen him only a few times before Robert killed him (when Tyrion was ten).

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2 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Insofar as there was a trade, it was supposed to be Dany for the support of Drogo's khalasar against the Baratheon regime. Except that Viserys had to be told that the Dothraki do not sell each other such things, they give gifts at such time as they deem proper.

I shall treasure them always.” Dany had heard tales of such eggs, but she had never seen one, nor thought to see one. It was a truly magnificent gift, though she knew that Illyrio could afford to be lavish. He had collected a fortune in horses and slaves for his part in selling her to Khal Drogo. 

From Dany's second chapter in game. 

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11 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Young Griff asks Tyrion about Rhaegar, and Tyrion claims to have seen him only a few times before Robert killed him (when Tyrion was ten).

Thanks, I found the statement.

"Well, I saw him twice or thrice, but I was only ten when Robert killed him, and mine own sire had me hidden underneath a rock. No, I cannot claim I knew Prince Rhaegar. Not as your false father did. Lord Connington was the prince's dearest friend, was he not?" (ADWD: Tyrion VI)

So it would appear that Tyrion did see Rhaegar in person, but only two or three times. And considering Tywin resigned and left King's Landing in 281 AC, Tyrion would have been 7-8 or younger when he saw Rhaegar.

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18 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

I think the vision is more about Azor Ahai/ the Prince that was promised than about the claim to the Iron Throne, but still does not predispose one for Aegon to be genuine. It includes Stannis as well and his claim is not in question. It is competing to Dany's but he certainly is Robert's heir. The falsehood in his case refers to the prophesy. 

I think those are three different lies:

1. Dany is AAR - Stannis is not. 

2. Dany is a real Targaryen - Aegon is not.

3. The dragons woken out of stone are Dany's - whatever Melisandre does to wake dragons is wrong. 

That's my interpretation, anyway. :)

 

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