The Illyrio/Aegon thing

[AlaskanSandman]

On 8/27/2018 at 7:19 AM, Lost Melnibonean said:

The George did not have the Blackfyre worked out before Clash, but he clearly had the ambiguous hidden prince in mind from the beginning. I would submit that assuming Aegon actually is the son of Rhaegar is actually more complicated than the alternative. The only way I can reconcile the issue of Varys coming to King's Landing before Robert's Rebellion is to assume that Varys had gone to destabilize Aerys's rule for the benefit of Illyrio himself. Although the George did not have Illyrio's descent worked out (unless it was originally through Aerion, and he decided to change it as he wrote Clash), it is quite possible (likely in my opinion) that he was always going to have some familial relationship among Varys, Illyrio, and the ambiguous hidden prince. 

Yea it's definitely an interesting subject haha that's my hard argument for real aegon though  

[AlaskanSandman]

On 8/27/2018 at 8:44 AM, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Which is what Varys did. He was the one who fueled Aerys' paranoia by pointing out traitors at court, including Rhaegar. This would push Aerys to name the mad Viserys as his heir, which would further distabilize the Targaryen rule.

Good point and interesting. Did he? Or did he point out real enemies?

Rhaegar was plotting as apparent by Harrenhal.

Varys warned (protecting) Aerys not to open his doors to Tywin.

Did Varys undermine Aerys? Or protect him?

[Bloodraven's Spider]

R+L=A

 

Aegon legit just not related to Elia whatsoever. 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

5 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Good point and interesting. Did he? Or did he point out real enemies?

Rhaegar was plotting as apparent by Harrenhal.

Varys warned (protecting) Aerys not to open his doors to Tywin.

Did Varys undermine Aerys? Or protect him?

Point being, he undermined every chance at stability that there was, both during the reign of Aerys and afterwards. Which is strange for someone who claims to "serve the realm". 

[AlaskanSandman]

On 8/31/2018 at 8:32 AM, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Point being, he undermined every chance at stability that there was, both during the reign of Aerys and afterwards. Which is strange for someone who claims to "serve the realm". 

How is that undermining stability? Lannister take over isn't stability cause the rule eventually and inevitably falls to some idiot (Cersei, Joffery, Tommen, Jamie would be horrible.). Rhaegar taking over possibly would, but more than likely not, as Rhaegar allowed a rebellion to happen, or caused it, getting himself killed. 

So yes, Varys does seem to serve the realm by protecting Aerys. And we all know Robert was a terrible king.

[asongofheresy]

I don't know why most people thought a Lyseni bed slave and pig eyed Illyrio had a son who is a carbon copy of Rhaegar? Yeah his eyes are lighter than Rhaegar but that's it, Viserys has lilac eyes, Daenerys has violet eyes yet they are still siblings of Rhaegar. 

Also Calla is the only female Blackfyre that is named by George, Aegon descending from a nameless second daughter doesn't have the same affect? But *puts on tinfoil* what if Kiera of Tyrosh was daughter of Daemon and Rohanne? What if Aegon is descended from Vaella Targaryen? Still I myself believe Aegon is actually son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. I love how his blue hair is tied to his dead mother.

[Lady Barbrey]

11 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

I don't know why most people thought a Lyseni bed slave and pig eyed Illyrio had a son who is a carbon copy of Rhaegar? Yeah his eyes are lighter than Rhaegar but that's it, Viserys has lilac eyes, Daenerys has violet eyes yet they are still siblings of Rhaegar. 

Also Calla is the only female Blackfyre that is named by George, Aegon descending from a nameless second daughter doesn't have the same affect? But *puts on tinfoil* what if Kiera of Tyrosh was daughter of Daemon and Rohanne? What if Aegon is descended from Vaella Targaryen? Still I myself believe Aegon is actually son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. I love how his blue hair is tied to his dead mother.

Why not tied to his dead father?  Brandon and Ashara's child?  Dayne colouring seems dominant even though Ashara had dark hair so they could easily have had a child with blonde hair and purplish-blue eyes.  Someone likeable, who reminds me of Jon.  A lot. Especially in his interactions with Tyrion. But a little more arrogant and hot headed. Like Brandon.

Don't get me wrong, I like the Blackfyre theory but I keep options open and  I just don't understand why people are so willing to believe Septa Lemore might be Ashara but never speculate Aegon might be Ashara's son.  Or maybe they once did but it lost traction?

There were three children born not long from each other, Jon, Dany and Ashara's 'stillborn' child. Do we know that child is dead?  Barristan just heard that, likely years later, it's not eyewitness.  Do we know Ashara is dead? Same thing. She could have been sent to Essos with young child by Varys for all we know - he has a habit of sending relatively decent people there - and married young, fit Illyrio.  When the child began looking exceptionally Targish, the plan was hatched.  Any number of reasons.

I guess I'm just bringing this up as an alternate for selfish reasons.

It would be far more interesting to me if a hidden Stark entered the picture, rather than some random Blackfyre even if he is related to Illyrio or Varys.

Aegon Snow would be a proper foil to Jon in my opinion, and more interesting I suspect to non Mystery Knight readers who don't know much or care about Blackfyres. Those same readers do care very much about the intriguing Daynes, and Starks of course.

But George seems so heavily invested in Targaryens with his histories and such, I'm likely to be disappointed.

 

 

[Lollygag]

14 minutes ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Why not tied to his dead father?  Brandon and Ashara's child?  Dayne colouring seems dominant even though Ashara had dark hair so they could easily have had a child with blonde hair and purplish-blue eyes.  Someone likeable, who reminds me of Jon.  A lot. Especially in his interactions with Tyrion. But a little more arrogant and hot headed. Like Brandon.

Don't get me wrong, I like the Blackfyre theory but I keep options open and  I just don't understand why people are so willing to believe Septa Lemore might be Ashara but never speculate Aegon might be Ashara's son.  Or maybe they once did but it lost traction?

There were three children born not long from each other, Jon, Dany and Ashara's 'stillborn' child. Do we know that child is dead?  Barristan just heard that, likely years later, it's not eyewitness.  Do we know Ashara is dead? Same thing. She could have been sent to Essos with young child by Varys for all we know - he has a habit of sending relatively decent people there - and married young, fit Illyrio.  When the child began looking exceptionally Targish, the plan was hatched.  Any number of reasons.

I guess I'm just bringing this up as an alternate for selfish reasons.

It would be far more interesting to me if a hidden Stark entered the picture, rather than some random Blackfyre even if he is related to Illyrio or Varys.

Aegon Snow would be a proper foil to Jon in my opinion, and more interesting I suspect to non Mystery Knight readers who don't know much or care about Blackfyres. Those same readers do care very much about the intriguing Daynes, and Starks of course.

But George seems so heavily invested in Targaryens with his histories and such, I'm likely to be disappointed.

 

 

I don't know if it's true or not, but I don't think you're without hope.

There’s a lot of Stark symbols around Aegon. I’m not sure if they’re literal or figurative yet. One of the big ones is that all of the Stark kids get a wolf. Aegon gets a red (dire/dour) wolf in the somber and Starkish JonCon who wears that wolf pelt all the time even when it's warm enough to swim. Tyrion tells Jon that there’s nothing of his mother in him when it’s really his father. Aegon has blue hair for his mother, but maybe that’s more fitting for his father?

In this series, kids often take after their uncles or aunts. This interchange reminded me of Ned on my first read.

Tyrion: Don’t trust anyone, not even me.

Aegon: Ok, I’ll trust you Tyrion.

 

LF: Don’t trust anyone, not even me.

Ned: Ok, I’ll trust you LF.

And it’d be interesting if the kid who looked like a Stark with Winterfell was actually heir to the IT and the Targ looking kid who had the IT was actually heir to Winterfell (ok that would be debatable as a bastard, but it puts him in line).

There's more that I'm forgetting but if you reread Aegon looking for Stark stuff, they'll pop out.

 

[Lady Barbrey]

10 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I don't know if it's true or not, but I don't think you're without hope.

There’s a lot of Stark symbols around Aegon. I’m not sure if they’re literal or figurative yet. One of the big ones is that all of the Stark kids get a wolf. Aegon gets a red (dire/dour) wolf in the somber and Starkish JonCon who wears that wolf pelt all the time even when it's warm enough to swim. Tyrion tells Jon that there’s nothing of his mother in him when it’s really his father. Aegon has blue hair for his mother, but maybe that’s more fitting for his father?

 

In this series, kids often take after their uncles or aunts. This interchange reminded me of Ned on my first read.

 

Tyrion: Don’t trust anyone, not even me.

 

Aegon: Ok, I’ll trust you Tyrion.

 

 

 

LF: Don’t trust anyone, not even me.

 

Ned: Ok, I’ll trust you LF.

 

And it’d be interesting if the kid who looked like a Stark with Winterfell was actually heir to the IT and the Targ looking kid who had the IT was actually heir to Winterfell (ok that would be debatable as a bastard, but it puts him in line).

 

 

 

There's more that I'm forgetting but if you reread Aegon looking for Stark stuff, they'll pop out.

 

 

Oh this does give me hope!  I'd forgotten about JonCon's wolf pelt entirely though it seemed so out of place when I read that bit.  And That's a great catch re the uncle's.

And yes, that irony you pointed out is exactly the one I was thinking about when I thought an Aegon Snow would be a better foil for Jon than a Blackfyre.  Thanks!

[asongofheresy]

Spoiler

 

I don't know how I put that spoiler thing in here and I don't how to get rid of so ignore :) 

@Lady Barbrey Ashara and Brandon didn't have any relationship we have no proof they were close except it was Brandon who asked Ashara if she could dance with Ned that's it. Brandon was also dead before Ashara and Ned conceived their child. Still no I don't think Ashara is Aegon's mother. If she is Septa Lemore which I agree she is, than she is there because she knows Aegon is Rhaegar's son and she was the one to nurse him and took him to Essos. Ashara stillborn daughter could be Allyria or she is really mother of Jon, which is a great possibility let's not be RLJ obsessed here. Brandon also has no ties to color blue like Lyanna and to some extent Brienne does. 

@Lollygag Aegon is Stark-ish because his mother is a Stark, let's not take the hard way here. Aegon's personality is also more reckless and blunt than Rhaegar and Elia. He is also more interested in swordfight than books.

Varys just got lucky when Rhaegar's real son died but he knew where Lyanna was and he told Ned about it. We know Ned is used to work with men he dislikes who but our eunuch would be that man. And when Ned is stuck with a Valyrian looking baby they made a plan and Ned makes sure he has eyes on the boy, not only Lemore could be Ashara, I think Haldon Halfmaester is Walys Flowers, the WF maester who "died" at the end of the Rebellion. Since Walys was also son of Maester Walgrave and Malora Hightower that would explain why there are people who think Lemore is Malora and Haldon is Leyton, there is a Hightower connection to our Shy Maid. While Varys takes care of Aegon since he is a babe he doesn't think Jon to be anyone special, Jon is just Ned's bastard for him. 

[Lady Barbrey]

24 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I don't know how I put that spoiler thing in here and I don't how to get rid of so ignore

@Lady Barbrey Ashara and Brandon didn't have any relationship we have no proof they were close except it was Brandon who asked Ashara if she could dance with Ned that's it. Brandon was also dead before Ashara and Ned conceived their child. Still no I don't think Ashara is Aegon's mother. If she is Septa Lemore which I agree she is, than she is there because she knows Aegon is Rhaegar's son and she was the one to nurse him and took him to Essos. Ashara stillborn daughter could be Allyria or she is really mother of Jon, which is a great possibility let's not be RLJ obsessed here. Brandon also has no ties to color blue like Lyanna and to some extent Brienne does. 

@Lollygag Aegon is Stark-ish because his mother is a Stark, let's not take the hard way here. Aegon's personality is also more reckless and blunt than Rhaegar and Elia. He is also more interested in swordfight than books.

Varys just got lucky when Rhaegar's real son died but he knew where Lyanna was and he told Ned about it. We know Ned is used to work with men he dislikes who but our eunuch would be that man. And when Ned is stuck with a Valyrian looking baby they made a plan and Ned makes sure he has eyes on the boy, not only Lemore could be Ashara, I think Haldon Halfmaester is Walys Flowers, the WF maester who "died" at the end of the Rebellion. Since Walys was also son of Maester Walgrave and Malora Hightower that would explain why there are people who think Lemore is Malora and Haldon is Leyton, there is a Hightower connection to our Shy Maid. While Varys takes care of Aegon since he is a babe he doesn't think Jon to be anyone special, Jon is just Ned's bastard for him. 

Barristan was told Ashara was dishonored by a Stark at Harrenhal (Brandon was very much alive) and he further implies that women like fire not mud, referring to himself as mud, but of the two Stark brothers which one is called hot headed and which one is quiet and stoic?  It's either Brandon or Ned, my money's on Brandon, but either way she got pregnant by a Stark.

 

[asongofheresy]

1 hour ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Barristan was told Ashara was dishonored by a Stark at Harrenhal (Brandon was very much alive) and he further implies that women like fire not mud, referring to himself as mud, but of the two Stark brothers which one is called hot headed and which one is quiet and stoic?  It's either Brandon or Ned, my money's on Brandon, but either way she got pregnant by a Stark.

 

Barristan is an unnecessarily romantic man that thinks all sons of Aegon V had love marriages despite knowing Daeron never married and was gay. He also talks about Daemon I loving first Daenerys when Daemon and Rohanne had a fruitful marriage of twelve years until his death. So no I don't like seeing Ashara through his eyes. And if Brandon and Ashara had a thing then Ned wouldn't think Brandon was born to be a King's Hand and father to queens. And both Ned Dayne and Allyria Dayne believed Ned and Ashara fall in love. Harwin also talks about Ned and Ashara having a relationship and says Brandon was bethored to Catelyn so there is no such thing as being dishonored. Barristan is the only one to suggest Ashara was dishonored. Also Barristan was old enough to be Ashara's dad good God of course Ashara wouldn't look at him and he was a KG, he swore wows to take no wife. 

[Lady Barbrey]

Deleted

[Crona]

I have a question for the people that believe Aegon is a stark and Ashara’s kid, why would she run away with Aegon and why would she disguise him as being the legitimate son of Rhaegar?

[Lady Barbrey]

8 hours ago, Crona said:

I have a question for the people that believe Aegon is a stark and Ashara’s kid, why would she run away with Aegon and why would she disguise him as being the legitimate son of Rhaegar?

Nobody said we believed it, just that it was a possibility narratively speaking, and there are some hints that could play out.  And nobody said she disguised him either, that would only be true if she is Septa Lemore, which I'm not arguing for or against here, but on the whole don't believe. In answer to why she might run away in the first place, I can imagine a number of reasons without a shred of evidence to back them up.  But honestly none of the Septa Lemore is Ashara or Aegon as Blackfyre or Brightflame or real Aegon or random Targ have much to back them up either.

The only thing we know is that Aegon looks like a Targ - or a Dayne.  And that Illyrio and Varys have been backing him since he was quite young so as to present him as the true king of Westeros. And that Illyrio might have been fond of him. The number of scenarios that could fill the gaps between are plenteous.

So to consider Aegon might be Ashara's non-stillborn child, born of a Stark, is completely within the bounds as I see it, and narratively imo more satisfying. I think we need to leave the question open while making our guesses.  For now, I'm going with the Blackfyre theory while hoping for the Stark-Dayne one, and not ruling out any other possibilities except that Aegon is really Rhaegar and Elias son, which logistically and thematically speaking makes the least sense, as well-argued by others on this thread.

[bent branch]

18 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Why not tied to his dead father?  Brandon and Ashara's child?

Any child of this pairing would be much too old to be Aegon. 

[Lady Barbrey]

11 minutes ago, bent branch said:

Any child of this pairing would be much too old to be Aegon. 

Why?  If Ashara got pregnant at Harrenhal, as many of us suspect, and fAegon her son, he would be at most seven months younger than true Aegon.  Don't understand how he could be older at all.

[bent branch]

Was Elia pregnant with Aegon at Harrenhal? Aegon certainly wasn't born before Harrenhal and I thought Elia got pregnant with him after Harrenhal.

ETA: Yes, it is generally accepted that Ashara got pregnant at Harrenhal.

[Lady Barbrey]

47 minutes ago, bent branch said:

Was Elia pregnant with Aegon at Harrenhal? Aegon certainly wasn't born before Harrenhal and I thought Elia got pregnant with him after Harrenhal.

ETA: Yes, it is generally accepted that Ashara got pregnant at Harrenhal.

Oh I see.  Yes, she was pregnant with him at Harrenhal.  She gives birth by the end of 281 or beginning of 282.   Harrenhal took place during the 'false spring' of 281 that lasts only 2 turns before winter returning with a vengeance at the end of the year.  So the false spring seems to have taken place in what we would equate to the fall or early winter of 281, though who knows with the way the seasons work. Regardless, she would have been pregnant at Harrenhal.

[bent branch]

1 hour ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Oh I see.  Yes, she was pregnant with him at Harrenhal.  She gives birth by the end of 281 or beginning of 282.   Harrenhal took place during the 'false spring' of 281 that lasts only 2 turns before winter returning with a vengeance at the end of the year.  So the false spring seems to have taken place in what we would equate to the fall or early winter of 281, though who knows with the way the seasons work. Regardless, she would have been pregnant at Harrenhal.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that the Harrenhal Tournament happened in early 281, because I doubt it was announced a year before it took place. And, from what we are told about Elia's health, she almost certainly wasn't pregnant at Harrenhal. Thus, Ashara's baby must have been the one born first. But, I will give you that the babies were probably no more than 3-5 months apart in age (assuming, of course, that Ashara's baby didn't die). Therefore, my original comment about the babies being too far apart in age was in error.