The Illyrio/Aegon thing

[Ckram]

@Alexis-something-Rose

Maybe the Yunkish bought Nyessos, then Illyrio doubled the offer, the Yunkish doubled Illyrio's and so on.

Nice catch, though.

[Lady Barbrey]

12 hours ago, Ckram said:

In the comment section of the reddit thread, an user shows that historical figures had deathmasks aswell as hand casts. Maybe the stone hands are not the actual grey death / greyscale hands, but a stone hand cast.

However, having the hands but not the mask, only a picture in a locket could still mean something.

The thing is, in the books it makes no mention they're even stone.  I thought they were real mummified hands.  But in the app it says stone.  Who clarified they were stone?  I'm wondering if there was an SSM about this that clears it up.

[Ckram]

@Lady Barbrey

At first, I also thought they were mummified hands. But the considerations in this thread made me realize that mummification would be kind of very unlikely due to the greydeath thing. Therefore, stone hands are the most likely option, no matter if they are real or hand casts.

[Lady Barbrey]

On 11/3/2018 at 6:25 PM, Lord Varys said:

The linked theory leads to weird places in the end, but the tidbit about it being odd to keep greyscale hands is actually pretty sound.

I usually just point out that we only have Illyrio's words that Serra is a thing - the alleged picture of hers could be Dany or any silver-golden haired Valyrian woman on the planet.

And in the end it may make much more sense that Lemore is Aegon's true mother, not this Serra woman.

Actually, now you say it, look at the opposites to the possible lies he tells about Serra: 

1) She's dead.  She's alive.

2) She's a whore.  She's a Septa

3) She's blond.  She's brunette.

A living brunette Septa?  Now where might Tyrion be about to meet one of those? Lol. I bet that's it.  George makes sure we know he's lying with the voyaging, Varys's origins, the coin only motivation, then when he springs this story on us we look for the lie, the opposites.  

Illyrio might want to create common backstory with Tyrion about whores, but he is also, more importantly, making sure Tyrion does not connect Lemore to him as husband.

One or the other of them might have Valyrian ancestry, but no plan was hatched for sure I bet until Aegon started looking like a Targ. And who knows if either of them are related to him, though my money's on Lemore being the mother at least.

By the way, I think I found a possible inspiration that ties some of these things together. Has anyone looked at the Wiki for Aenys Targaryen?  It says he was likely inspired by Edward de la Pole, who might have been king eventually if Henry VII had not defeated Richard III. Edward is involved in an uprising, is exiled, returns, and is executed.

I looked Edward up.  Male line seems to have died out for this line.

But Edward had a daughter.  She became a nun and died of the Black Plague.

So here we have the exiled king claimants, the Blackfyres, the nun, Septa Lemore, the Black Plague, the Grey Plague story, in addition to the Lysene pillow house whore calling back the past Saera Targaryen princess promised to the Septas but became a whore instead.

I wonder if it's Aenys's line that's the culprit here.

If he were Varys's grandfather, murdered under banner of truce by Bloodraven, Varys would have good reason to hate him.  Also, that blue fire in Varys's ritual does kind of scream blue for the North, fire for the Targs - Bloodraven (and it appears again in Jaime's weirwood dream).  Was Bloodraven trying to get rid of Varys's breeding powers and prospects specifically through that sorceror? Bloodraven himself was a sorceror as well as a greenseer.  But couldn't get to Essos himself.

I always kind of wondered why he let one Blackfyre off, even let Bittersteel be sentenced to the Wall rather than executed, but went straight for the throat for Aenys even knowing he might be sentenced to death as a result.  It was unnecessary and uncharacteristic.

But as a greenseer, maybe flame reader too, maybe he had a premonition someone from Aenys's line might doom the Targaryans, and maybe the kingdom too, so made it his mission to stamp out the line?

And so the prophecy becomes self-fulfilling because in trying to prevent this person, he creates him instead.  Varys said that voice from the fire was in another language, but he ferrets out secrets, that's his nature.  I bet he worked at finding out the language (Westerosi), learning it and translating the words he imprinted in his brain. And so Varys came to Westeros finally, not to find the sorceror, but to find the voice from the fire, 1001 eyes, master of Whisperers, and became master of Whisperers himself.

Maybe!

Also: didn't the Targs have a prophecy that the doom of man might come from Casterly Rock?  @Lollygag maybe that's Gerion-Illyrio! And maybe there's another one Bloodraven knows about his co-conspirator Varys from the Blackfyres!  Because they're both responsible, not only for birthing dragons and bringing all those Dothraki and Unsullied to Westeros, but the Golden Company, and Aegon too, and doom is the result? This would be fun stuff indeed.

 

[Lord Varys]

The reason why Illyrio would tell Tyrion - then suicidal depressive alcoholic - a lie about this whore he fell in love with and married is also as clear as white snow. Varys briefed Illyrio about Tyrion - told him everything he knew about Tysha and especially Shae (and, of course, how Varys used Shae to get Tyrion to murder Tywin), and considering Tyrion's personality the best way to bond with him by making him believe they had something in common. Something Tyrion could relate to that would make him see Illyrio as a man Tyrion would accept some advice from.

This doesn't mean this whole thing has to be a lie - but it is not unlikely that it is a lie. Even if the Serra woman does exist, I'm reasonably certain she was nothing but a whore to Illyrio Mopatis. And if he actually married her then not 'for love' but to ensure that their son, little Aegon, could inherit the Mopatis estate and wealth should Illyrio meet an untimely end.

The oddity with Lemore as Aegon's mother would be that she apparently has neither blond nor silver-gold hair, yet Aegon likely has such hair. But then - who knows what Illyrio's actual hair color is beneath all that yellow dye...?

Lemore bathes in the Rhoyne and both Daemon the Younger and what Aegon himself intends to do implies that washing out this dye is no big deal. You just wash your hair. If Lemore was using dye to appear as a brunette one would assume Mother Rhoyne would have given away her true colors long ago.

But in general - if we assume the Aegon thing is the grand plan of Varys and Illyrio then it is very odd that neither is with their golden boy. They allow other people to shape his path and make decisions for him they might not necessarily approve. Why is that?

If Aegon's true mother was with him then all of this might make more sense. They would know that Lemore would have Aegon's best interests - and the grand plan - as much at heart as they do.

Connington has Aegon's best interests at heart, too, but he doesn't know everything. Lemore might. And that might be crucial in certain situations.

[Lady Barbrey]

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Quote

The reason why Illyrio would tell Tyrion - then suicidal depressive alcoholic - a lie about this whore he fell in love with and married is also as clear as white snow. Varys briefed Illyrio about Tyrion - told him everything he knew about Tysha and especially Shae (and, of course, how Varys used Shae to get Tyrion to murder Tywin), and considering Tyrion's personality the best way to bond with him by making him believe they had something in common. Something Tyrion could relate to that would make him see Illyrio as a man Tyrion would accept some advice from.

Actually you're repeating back to me my own argument, that I provided a link for.  That doesn't mean there wasn't something else going on too.

 

Quote

This doesn't mean this whole thing has to be a lie - but it is not unlikely that it is a lie. Even if the Serra woman does exist, I'm reasonably certain she was nothing but a whore to Illyrio Mopatis. And if he actually married her then not 'for love' but to ensure that their son, little Aegon, could inherit the Mopatis estate and wealth should Illyrio meet an untimely end.

Doesn't have to be, but It's strange when I did the opposites thing it pointed straight to Lemore.  I wasn't even expecting it. I just though what's the opposite of a whore?  A nun.

Quote

 

The oddity with Lemore as Aegon's mother would be that she apparently has neither blond nor silver-gold hair, yet Aegon likely has such hair. But then - who knows what Illyrio's actual hair color is beneath all that yellow dye...?

Lemore bathes in the Rhoyne and both Daemon the Younger and what Aegon himself intends to do implies that washing out this dye is no big deal. You just wash your hair. If Lemore was using dye to appear as a brunette one would assume Mother Rhoyne would have given away her true colors long ago.

But in general - if we assume the Aegon thing is the grand plan of Varys and Illyrio then it is very odd that neither is with their golden boy. They allow other people to shape his path and make decisions for him they might not necessarily approve. Why is that?

If Aegon's true mother was with him then all of this might make more sense. They would know that Lemore would have Aegon's best interests - and the grand plan - as much at heart as they do.

Connington has Aegon's best interests at heart, too, but he doesn't know everything. Lemore might. And that might be crucial in certain situations.

 

Yes I agree.  I'm leaning towards she is his mother.  I saw some other speculations that she might be someone from court that would be trusted to prove his identity, but it came back to Ashara Dayne, and I just don't see it.  I'm holding out hope for Aegon as Aegon Snow, but even then just can't see how Tyrion, who is examining every inch of Lemore and Aegon, would not remark on the Liz Taylor eyes, so don't believe she's Ashara.

 

[Lady Barbrey]

14 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I remember reading that passage about the super fat man being rolled off the Meadowlark after his fingers had been cut off to take his rings and thinking of Illyrio. I just wasn't sure why he would want to travel incognito (or as much as his girth will allow for) when he has his own ships. But then, the Meadowlark did have Quentyn's group traveling on it under assumed identities and the ship was traveling from Lys to Volantis.

Here's something that I thought of yesterday. It was bribing the passages about one of the Triarchs in Volantis. Triarch Nyessos.

"Elephants with stripes?" Griff muttered. "What is that about? Nyessos and Malaquo? Illyrio has paid Triarch Nyessos enough to own him eight times over." (Tyrion V, ADWD 18)

And later we find out this;

"The priest is calling on the Volantenes to go to war," the Halfmaester told him, "but on the side of right, as soldiers of the Lord of Light, R'hllor who made the sun and stars and fights eternally against the darkness. Nyessos and Malaquo have turned away from the light, he said, their hearts darkened by the yellow harpies from the east. He says . . ." (Tyrion VI, ADWD 22,)

And this;

"The Yunkishmen have bought your triarchs?"
"Only Nyessos." Qavo removed the screen and studied the placement of Tyrion's army. "Malaquo may be old and toothless, but he is a tiger still, and Doniphos will not be returned as triarch. The city thirsts for war." (Tyrion VI, ADWD 22)

So one of two things. Either Nyessos took Illyrio's money and decided to double-cross him because he felt there was more money in the slave trade. Or he did not receive all of his payment or any of it if Illyrio was setting off to Volantis after he dropped Tyrion off to see to it because he never made it to Volantis after the Meadowlark was attacked. 

Great catch on this.  I bet you're right!

[Lady Barbrey]

11 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Interesting. One of the reasons I'm skeptical of the theory that Aegon is a Blackfyre is that it seems unlikely that a branch of the Blackfyre family that anyone cared about wound wind up with its heir as a Lysene brothel slave. Illyrio is claiming that this marriage was notorious enough to bar him from the palace of Pentos, indicating that Tyrion could easily discover whether it's a lie, but leaving Pentos makes that less likely.

Yes I wondered about that too.  There could have been a break in the continuity I suppose and Blackfyre daughter's ended up in prostitution..  One would think the Golden Company would look after any Blackfyre heirs when only women were left but I guess that's not necessarily true.  Dany and Viserys didn't get too much support in the end before Illyrio popped up.  

[Lollygag]

6 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

 

Also: didn't the Targs have a prophecy that the doom of man might come from Casterly Rock?  @Lollygag maybe that's Gerion-Illyrio! And maybe there's another one Bloodraven knows about his co-conspirator Varys from the Blackfyres!  Because they're both responsible, not only for birthing dragons and bringing all those Dothraki and Unsullied to Westeros, but the Golden Company, and Aegon too, and doom is the result? This would be fun stuff indeed. 

 

Close but you might be right anyhow. It specifies that it’s Casterly Rock gold which is said to be cursed which seems to indicate the location, not the family, which holds the curse. Anyhow, I’m big on multiple interpretations being true at once, so you might be onto something with Illyrio/Gerion and any Valyrians. Jaime killed Aerys and ended the reign of his line in his Casterly Rock gold armor and with his Casterly Rock gold sword. The Lannister acquisition of  the Valyrian steel Bright Roar, likely with Casterly Rock gold, is approximately the same time as the Doom. I wonder if that was Casterly Rock gold that Khal Drago used on Viserys?

The World of Ice and Fire - The Westerlands

The wealth of the westerlands was matched, in ancient times, with the hunger of the Freehold of Valyria for precious metals, yet there seems no evidence that the dragonlords ever made contact with the lords of the Rock, Casterly or Lannister. Septon Barth speculated on the matter, referring to a Valyrian text that has since been lost, suggesting that the Freehold's sorcerers foretold that the gold of Casterly Rock would destroy them. Archmaester Perestan has put forward a different, more plausible speculation, suggesting that the Valyrians had in ancient days reached as far as Oldtown but suffered some great reverse or tragedy there that caused them to shun all of Westeros thereafter.

I strongly suspect that this curse is Garin's curse and that it was around a great deal longer than what history tells. The Rhoynar was one of the first to develop iron use, and iron holds the stone statues of Winterfell in place and also repels the Others. Perhaps iron also keeps greyscale contained? Something repelled the Valyrians for a long time and allowed the Rhoynar to become a relatively unmolested hippie wonderland.

The doom of man line has me thinking that maybe the Valyrians were too narrow in their interpretation: perhaps it was a warning of water/ice magic run amok thus causing the doom of man. But the Valyrians saw it only from their POV maybe like the Romans. And perhaps there's another for fire run amok, too.

 

[Lady Barbrey]

17 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Close but you might be right anyhow. It specifies that it’s Casterly Rock gold which is said to be cursed which seems to indicate the location, not the family, which holds the curse. Anyhow, I’m big on multiple interpretations being true at once, so you might be onto something with Illyrio/Gerion and any Valyrians. Jaime killed Aerys and ended the reign of his line in his Casterly Rock gold armor and with his Casterly Rock gold sword. The Lannister acquisition of  the Valyrian steel Bright Roar, likely with Casterly Rock gold, is approximately the same time as the Doom. I wonder if that was Casterly Rock gold that Khal Drago used on Viserys?

 

The World of Ice and Fire - The Westerlands

 

The wealth of the westerlands was matched, in ancient times, with the hunger of the Freehold of Valyria for precious metals, yet there seems no evidence that the dragonlords ever made contact with the lords of the Rock, Casterly or Lannister. Septon Barth speculated on the matter, referring to a Valyrian text that has since been lost, suggesting that the Freehold's sorcerers foretold that the gold of Casterly Rock would destroy them. Archmaester Perestan has put forward a different, more plausible speculation, suggesting that the Valyrians had in ancient days reached as far as Oldtown but suffered some great reverse or tragedy there that caused them to shun all of Westeros thereafter.

 

I strongly suspect that this curse is Garin's curse and that it was around a great deal longer than what history tells. The Rhoynar was one of the first to develop iron use, and iron holds the stone statues of Winterfell in place and also repels the Others. Perhaps iron also keeps greyscale contained? Something repelled the Valyrians for a long time and allowed the Rhoynar to become a relatively unmolested hippie wonderland.

The doom of man line has me thinking that maybe the Valyrians were too narrow in their interpretation: perhaps it was a warning of water/ice magic run amok thus causing the doom of man. But the Valyrians saw it only from their POV maybe like the Romans. And perhaps there's another for fire run amok, too.

 

 

I think we can think of the "gold" of Casterly Rock being the children of Casterly Rock as well.  We've certainly got enough animal and sword stand-ins where people are not just called but identified as wolves, swords of the morning, just maids, lions etc. The twins are called golden, their armour is gold, their colours gold, so though we might think 'lion' when we think of Lannisters, we also think "gold".  Not saying this is the interpretation, but can't rule it out because prophecy specifically speaks with these kind of symbolic stand-ins.  The Valyrians might well have thought "gold" themselves, but it could well be a golden Lannister (or more than one) that brings about the doom of men.  Certainly their incest caused the crisis in Westeros, and if Gerion is Illyrio we have another piece of gold from Casterly Rock to blame for rebirthing dragons, Dothraki hordes, the Unsullied and the Golden Company converging on Westeros, just as big a threat in some ways as the Others.  Interesting that It's the Doom of Men, not the Doom of Valyria, that was predicted to come from this gold.

I was thinking about Illyrio perhaps being a pirate - the fat man whose rings must be cleaved off was among pirates on a pirate ship- and about him lying to Tyrion he can't make sea voyages.  Was that because he didn't want him to know he was in Westeros, or because he is or was a notorious pirate?  I was interested that a Corsair King was making himself known in the Basilisk Isles recently.  Illyrio is a wealthy man but this could well be where he got his start, and we know he's a slaver, so maybe he keeps his hand in.  

It was really interesting to me, then, that after I looked up Gerion on the Wiki after reading your post, I then saw lots of speculation that Gerion was the Corsair King, just when I was wondering if he was Illyrio!  

Something else - when Gerion asks Tyrion what he wants as a gift, Gerion laughs when Tyrion says a dragon.  But he's just given Tyrion a dragon, Dany, in this plot, if he is Illyrio. A late birthday present?

I think there might be a time issue though - Gerion only disappeared a little over ten years ago.  Doesn't Illyrio seem too well-entrenched, rich and Pentosi to be Gerion? Wouldn't Tyrion have noticed something familiar about him despite his girth?  It stretches probability, though it's not impossible, he did not notice anything.

Also, he seems to have been allied with Varys a lot longer than that, but then, if everything he has said about their partnership is also a lie - the Myr Pentos lie gives that away or hints to that - it's possible their partnership began much later, well after Varys was ensconced at Kings Landing.  He might even have met Varys in Kings Landing while he was still Gerion Lannister?

Possibilities here, will have to keep an open mind.

Re: the Rhoynar.  They were left alone for longer than most but I was under the impression the Valyrians found the more powerful than most and didn't bother until they really needed to.  But I also believe their connection to water magic might play a part.  Do you recall the Reed oath?  I've wondered if it was a recipe for changing human Greenseers of earth or water (water separate but part of)  into Others and Valrians.

The greendreamer Jojen says: "I swear by earth and water." 

These are the raw ingredients but notice these are separated from each other.  An earth greenseer to make a fire being, a water greenseer to make an ice magic being?

The weapons proficient Meera says: "I swear by bronze and iron". 

This is the forging or mixing process, and interestingly, bronze and iron weapons are not usually made the same way. Both require heat, but one is by mold, the other by hammering.  So something similar to these different processes for each raw ingedient?  I have posted before that Winterfell, that contains the Heart tree, hot springs, bottomless freezing pool, and root and water to circulate, is the perfect place to forge anything magical, be it magical sword or magical human.

Then both swear by "ice and fire" - the result, magic ice and fire beings.  

The Others are made from water Greenseers, forged like iron, and transformed to ice beings. (You can start to see here a relationship to both the Rhoynar and the Ironborn).

The Valyrians are made from earth Greenseers, forged like bronze, and transformed to fire beings.

I like this because if you look at the forging process, (I watched fast forwarded on youtube) you can even see how the differences in forging correspond to differences in the final result of ice or fire people.

So that ancient oath could very well be a recipe, carried through the thousands of years as an oath so it was never forgotten.

But I only went into this because water magic greenseers + iron + fire enemies = Rhoynar can also be = Others, if you take the forging process into account.

Grayscale is death.  Val says it and means it.  It is like the magic sucks the water right out of the flesh to leave it petrified.  But doesn't this death connotation also ring true for the Others, who are necromancers? 

Way off topic, but It's surprising how some of our independent ideas are coming at the same things from different directions.

 

 

[FictionIsntReal]

On 11/4/2018 at 7:54 PM, Lady Barbrey said:

I always kind of wondered why he let one Blackfyre off, even let Bittersteel be sentenced to the Wall rather than executed, but went straight for the throat for Aenys even knowing he might be sentenced to death as a result.  It was unnecessary and uncharacteristic.

Bloodraven & Aerion Brightflame argued for executing Bittersteel. Bloodraven merely locked up Daemon II because he knew that executing him would result in Bittersteel crowning the next Blackfyre, and that one might be pragmatic enough for Bittersteel himself to support.

[Lady Barbrey]

41 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Bloodraven & Aerion Brightflame argued for executing Bittersteel. Bloodraven merely locked up Daemon II because he knew that executing him would result in Bittersteel crowning the next Blackfyre, and that one might be pragmatic enough for Bittersteel himself to support.

Oh yeah, I meant sneakily go after and kill Bittersteel now that he was within reach, and as for Daemon doesn't he say something like his mother will weep if I kill him?  But I take your point on not wanting another stronger heir to take his place.  That makes sense.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

On 11/4/2018 at 1:48 PM, Ckram said:

@Alexis-something-Rose

Maybe the Yunkish bought Nyessos, then Illyrio doubled the offer, the Yunkish doubled Illyrio's and so on.

Nice catch, though.

For sure. The Yunkish could have bought him just like Illyrio did. Or maybe he never intended to do what Illyrio wanted him to do. This could really go any direction, though. 

On 11/4/2018 at 10:06 PM, Lady Barbrey said:

Great catch on this.  I bet you're right!

There is one more thing that could possibly support an Illyrio death.

Above him loomed a grotesque fat man with a forked yellow beard, holding a wooden mallet and an iron chisel. His bedrobe was large enough to serve as a tourney pavilion, but its loosely knotted belt had come undone, exposing a huge white belly and a pair of heavy breasts that sagged like sacks of suet covered with coarse yellow hair. He reminded Tyrion of a dead sea cow that had once washed up in the caverns under Casterly Rock.

The fat man looked down and smiled. "A drunken dwarf, he said, in the Common Tongue of Westeros.

"A rotting sea cow." Tyrion's mouth was full of blood. He spat at the fat man's feet. (Tyrion I, ADWD 1)

If Illyrio died at sea and his body was rolled off the ship, then I guess he would be a dead rotting sea cow.

[Lady Barbrey]

10 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

For sure. The Yunkish could have bought him just like Illyrio did. Or maybe he never intended to do what Illyrio wanted him to do. This could really go any direction, though. 

There is one more thing that could possibly support an Illyrio death.

Above him loomed a grotesque fat man with a forked yellow beard, holding a wooden mallet and an iron chisel. His bedrobe was large enough to serve as a tourney pavilion, but its loosely knotted belt had come undone, exposing a huge white belly and a pair of heavy breasts that sagged like sacks of suet covered with coarse yellow hair. He reminded Tyrion of a dead sea cow that had once washed up in the caverns under Casterly Rock.

The fat man looked down and smiled. "A drunken dwarf, he said, in the Common Tongue of Westeros.

"A rotting sea cow." Tyrion's mouth was full of blood. He spat at the fat man's feet. (Tyrion I, ADWD 1)

If Illyrio died at sea and his body was rolled off the ship, then I guess he would be a dead rotting sea cow.

Another good catch. I think It's him and he's dead.

You know, something that might help nail the Gerion is Illyrio so he's dead is The Sailors Wife and daughter Lanna.  Unfortunately I can't do Search Westeros so will have to look this up in the books when I'm home.

It seems pretty pointed that Lanna is a Lannister and people have thought she might be Tyrion's child or Gerion's.

But Yna says she tasted the Sailors Wife's blood and the husband she's been waiting for is dead.  I never doubt this kind of thing, so that means it isn't Tyrion.  

If It's Gerion, then he's dead.  So what I want to find out is whether the chapter Yna said she tasted the blood and he's dead comes before or after the chapter where we surmise Illyrio is dead, the hands cleaved off, in a timeline.

Honestly, that will kind of nail it for me if so, both that Illyrio is dead and that he was Gerion Lannister.  Because why bother with these hints unless that's true.  If either you or @Lollygag have access before I do and can tell what the timeline was, I'd sure appreciate it.

Edit to Add: I looked up chapter order on Feast for Dragons, the combined books, and according to it, The Merchantman chapter comes before the Yna thing.  So she is right: the Sailors Wife's husband really is dead if he was Gerion and Gerion was Illyrio.

So, Lollygag, you better link me to your theory about Gerion, cause I'm ready to buy it, have some more support for it, and if we accept that's who he is, we have a pretty good idea of what Varys was doing for him in Westeros.  Undermining Tywin to begin with, and isn't it amazing how many in line of inheritance to Casterly Rock have died, disappeared or been disallowed this past fifteen years. Varys's hands are all over at least half of them.

[Lollygag]

On 11/5/2018 at 8:46 PM, Lady Barbrey said:

I think we can think of the "gold" of Casterly Rock being the children of Casterly Rock as well.  We've certainly got enough animal and sword stand-ins where people are not just called but identified as wolves, swords of the morning, just maids, lions etc. The twins are called golden, their armour is gold, their colours gold, so though we might think 'lion' when we think of Lannisters, we also think "gold".  Not saying this is the interpretation, but can't rule it out because prophecy specifically speaks with these kind of symbolic stand-ins.  The Valyrians might well have thought "gold" themselves, but it could well be a golden Lannister (or more than one) that brings about the doom of men.  Certainly their incest caused the crisis in Westeros, and if Gerion is Illyrio we have another piece of gold from Casterly Rock to blame for rebirthing dragons, Dothraki hordes, the Unsullied and the Golden Company converging on Westeros, just as big a threat in some ways as the Others.  Interesting that It's the Doom of Men, not the Doom of Valyria, that was predicted to come from this gold.

I agree. It was said that the Old Gods used a shaft of sun to reveal the gold in Casterly Rock to the Casterlys and then Lann stole the gold of the sun for his hair. It all points to us—not having some maybe important information on the Lannisters. I don’t know what that may be. The valonqar prophesy says "Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds," she said. "And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you” and this also seems to leave open a possible double meaning of gold metal crowns and gold hair.

The common interpretation of that is just the doom of Valyria, but I agree that it may be men, especially if the Valyrians were sort of like Rome and had a very self-centric view. But I have trouble viewing the Doom of Valyria as a bad thing given the slavery, torture and the strongly implied racial supremacy thing.

 

On 11/5/2018 at 8:46 PM, Lady Barbrey said:

I was thinking about Illyrio perhaps being a pirate - the fat man whose rings must be cleaved off was among pirates on a pirate ship- and about him lying to Tyrion he can't make sea voyages.  Was that because he didn't want him to know he was in Westeros, or because he is or was a notorious pirate?  I was interested that a Corsair King was making himself known in the Basilisk Isles recently.  Illyrio is a wealthy man but this could well be where he got his start, and we know he's a slaver, so maybe he keeps his hand in.  

It was really interesting to me, then, that after I looked up Gerion on the Wiki after reading your post, I then saw lots of speculation that Gerion was the Corsair King, just when I was wondering if he was Illyrio!  

I never thought about Gerion as a pirate before, but it fits. As Tyrion leaves Illyrio/maybe Gerion, there is much mixed discussion of Gerion, pirates and the Shrouded Lord. I did a reread (hence so long in replying!) and the pirate mentions really stand out now that you’ve brought up this connection. If Gerion was exiled as was hinted by Tywin’s statement, then he’d be in a difficult position financially. He was fond of Essos and linked to cheese kings and spice lords (Spicer lords? The Spicer names follow a close pattern to the Reynes which implies a lot. Rolph Spicer now has Castamere) so Gerion would be at sea a fair bit. Gerion and King Tommen went to Valyria basically as pirates. The words “treasures” and “plunder” are used which strongly recalls piracy. Tommen was looking for sorcery which recalls Euron, another pirate.

ADWD Tyrion VIII

"I know some sailors say that any man who lays eyes upon that coast is doomed." He did not believe such tales himself, no more than his uncle had. Gerion Lannister had set sail for Valyria when Tyrion was eighteen, intent on recovering the lost ancestral blade of House Lannister and any other treasures that might have survived the Doom. Tyrion had wanted desperately to go with them, but his lord father had dubbed the voyage a "fool's quest," and forbidden him to take part.

 

The World of Ice and Fire - The Westerlands

The sword Brightroar came into the possession of the Lannister kings in the century before the Doom, and it is said that the weight of gold they paid for it would have been enough to raise an army. But it was lost little more than a century later, when Tommen II carried it with him when he sailed with his great fleet to ruined Valyria, with the intention of plundering the wealth and sorcery he was sure still remained. The fleet never returned, nor Tommen, nor Brightroar.

 

Gerion also wasn’t the good-time guy that Jaime and Tyrion recall if you read between the lines if anyone thinks Gerion isn’t capable of being a pirate or  being Illyrio. Earlier I cited where Gerion taught Tyrion tumbling and Tywin was not happy. Gerion knew Tywin wouldn’t be pleased so he used Tyrion, damaging their relationship even further, to aggravate Tywin which is a pretty awful thing to do to a kid. Much of Gerion’s crew abandoned him when they found out he meant to go to Valyria, so he hired slaves and sailed them to what they believed to be their deaths. So Gerion is consistent with some of Illyrio’s ambition, slaving and cruelty.

ADWD Tyrion VIII

And perhaps he was not so wrong. Almost a decade had passed since the Laughing Lion headed out from Lannisport, and Gerion had never returned. The men Lord Tywin sent to seek after him had traced his course as far as Volantis, where half his crew had deserted him and he had bought slaves to replace them. No free man would willingly sign aboard a ship whose captain spoke openly of his intent to sail into the Smoking Sea. "So those are fires of the Fourteen Flames we're seeing, reflected on the clouds?"

Something else - when Gerion asks Tyrion what he wants as a gift, Gerion laughs when Tyrion says a dragon.  But he's just given Tyrion a dragon, Dany, in this plot, if he is Illyrio. A late birthday present?

 

On 11/5/2018 at 8:46 PM, Lady Barbrey said:

Something else - when Gerion asks Tyrion what he wants as a gift, Gerion laughs when Tyrion says a dragon.  But he's just given Tyrion a dragon, Dany, in this plot, if he is Illyrio. A late birthday present?

OMG I love this. It’s like when Gerion taught Tyrion tumbling which Tywin called being a monkey and then Illyrio gives Tyrion a monkey name!

 

On 11/5/2018 at 8:46 PM, Lady Barbrey said:

I think there might be a time issue though - Gerion only disappeared a little over ten years ago.  Doesn't Illyrio seem too well-entrenched, rich and Pentosi to be Gerion? Wouldn't Tyrion have noticed something familiar about him despite his girth?  It stretches probability, though it's not impossible, he did not notice anything.

Also, he seems to have been allied with Varys a lot longer than that, but then, if everything he has said about their partnership is also a lie - the Myr Pentos lie gives that away or hints to that - it's possible their partnership began much later, well after Varys was ensconced at Kings Landing.  He might even have met Varys in Kings Landing while he was still Gerion Lannister?

Possibilities here, will have to keep an open mind.

I think the too well-established is also a problem, but maybe not? It’s hard to say. If Gerion/Illyrio is glamored taking over the former Illyrio, then it would work. As for Tyrion not noticing, I agree, but GRRM has a weird thing about characters not being recognized and he carries Varys’ people see what they expect to see too far for me. Gerion was into some sort of gymnastics, travelling, never described as over weight and it was years and years ago with no photographs and Westeros’ apparent unexplained aversion to painted portraits as they never seem to be around. Ned didn’t notice Rodrick sans facial hair after having just seen him a few weeks earlier and having seen him every day for years and years. Cat was just in the Vale relatively recently, and apparently no one recognizes Sansa who’s her clone just because of the hair. Varys’ disguises are unbelievable to me. If Ned can’t recognize Rodrick without facial hair, then I’ll roll with Tyrion not recognizing Gerion as Illyrio. Then there’s the question of the hinted at glamor but still bearing a strong resemblance to Tytos, and what did a former Illyrio look like, if there was one? There’s too many holes here and I just don’t know but also can’t exclude it. My brain hurts now.

We’ve been told reading between the lines again that Gerion was at court in KL. Not only that, but he was playing his own Game of Thrones. In order to make japes, Gerion would have to be assessing when to play and not play. This passage also implies that Gerion plays to win and that this is very important to him. In the next passage, we see Tywin believes Gerion’s gift to Robert was a poor attempt at winning Robert’s favor. Gerion spending a lot of time in KL playing games is believable. Varys seemed to go out of his way to adopt a disenfranchised Tyrion. Perhaps he also went out of his way to adopt a disenfranchised Gerion?

AFFC Jaime V:

"Tired?" His aunt pursed her lips. "I suppose he has a right to be. It has been hard for Kevan, living all his life in Tywin's shadow. It was hard for all my brothers. That shadow Tywin cast was long and black, and each of them had to struggle to find a little sun. Tygett tried to be his own man, but he could never match your father, and that just made him angrier as the years went by. Gerion made japes. Better to mock the game than to play and lose. But Kevan saw how things stood early on, so he made himself a place by your father's side."

 

ASOS Tyrion IV

"The steel was sufficient for two blades, not three. If you have need of a dagger, take one from the armory. Robert left a hundred when he died. Gerion gave him a gilded dagger with an ivory grip and a sapphire pommel for a wedding gift, and half the envoys who came to court tried to curry favor by presenting His Grace with jewel-encrusted knives and silver inlay swords."

 

On 11/5/2018 at 8:46 PM, Lady Barbrey said:

Re: the Rhoynar.  They were left alone for longer than most but I was under the impression the Valyrians found the more powerful than most and didn't bother until they really needed to.  But I also believe their connection to water magic might play a part.  Do you recall the Reed oath?  I've wondered if it was a recipe for changing human Greenseers of earth or water (water separate but part of)  into Others and Valrians.

Here’s some of the text. I suspect this Wall of Water was always Garin’s curse or something related. Ysilla in ADWD suggests that the Valyrians knew about Garin’s Curse or whatever they referred to it before it actually happened. The only explanation which occurs to me is that the Valyrians believed that the Rhoynar had a WMD in greyscale for a long time hence the tentative approach, but as they became more aggressive and began making headway, they stopped believing.

The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: Ten Thousand Ships

By and large a peaceful people, the Rhoynar could be formidable when roused to wroth, as many a would-be Andal conqueror learned to his sorrow. The Rhoynish warrior with his silver-scaled armor, fish-head helm, tall spear, and turtle-shell shield was esteemed and feared by all those who faced him in battle. It was said the Mother Rhoyne herself whispered to her children of every threat, that the Rhoynar princes wielded strange, uncanny powers, that Rhoynish women fought as fiercely as Rhoynish men, and that their cities were protected by "watery walls" that would rise to drown any foe.

For many centuries the Rhoynar lived in peace. Though many a savage people dwelt in the hills and forests around Mother Rhoyne, all knew better than to molest the river folk. And the Rhoynar themselves showed little interest in expansion; the river was their home, their mother, and their god, and few of them wished to dwell beyond the sound of her eternal song.

When adventurers, exiles, and traders from the Freehold of Valyria began to expand beyond the Lands of the Long Summer in the centuries after the fall of the Old Empire of Ghis, the Rhoynish princes embraced them at first, and their priests declared that all men were welcome to share the bounty of Mother Rhoyne.

As those first Valyrian outposts grew into towns, and those towns into cities, however, some Rhoynar came to regret the forbearance of their fathers. Amity gave way to enmity, particularly upon the lower river, where the ancient city of Sar Mell and the walled Valyrian town Volon Therys faced each other across the waters, and on the shores of the Summer Sea, where the Free City of Volantis soon rivaled the storied port of Sarhoy, each of them commanding one of Mother Rhoyne's four mouths.

 

ADWD Tyrion V

The only way not to breathe the fog is not to breathe. "Garin's Curse is only greyscale," said Tyrion. The curse was oft seen in children, especially in damp, cold climes. The afflicted flesh stiffened, calcified, and cracked, though the dwarf had read that greyscale's progress could be stayed by limes, mustard poultices, and scalding-hot baths (the maesters said) or by prayer, sacrifice, and fasting (the septons insisted). Then the disease passed, leaving its young victims disfigured but alive. Maesters and septons alike agreed that children marked by greyscale could never be touched by the rarer mortal form of the affliction, nor by its terrible swift cousin, the grey plague. "Damp is said to be the culprit," he said. "Foul humors in the air. Not curses."

"The conquerors did not believe either, Hugor Hill," said Ysilla. "The men of Volantis and Valyria hung Garin in a golden cage and made mock as he called upon his Mother to destroy them. But in the night the waters rose and drowned them, and from that day to this they have not rested. They are down there still beneath the water, they who were once the lords of fire. Their cold breath rises from the murk to make these fogs, and their flesh has turned as stony as their hearts."

 

Another thing on Gerion being IIyrio— Tygett isn’t named until ACOK and Gerion isn’t named until ASOS, but it’s established that Tywin and Kevan have at least two dead brothers in AGOT twice which is very specific information. After Eddard’s chapter, there’s a Tyrion chapter, and then the chapter where Arya sees Illyrio.

AGOT Tyrion VI

Ser Kevan Lannister, his father's only surviving brother, was sharing a flagon of ale with Lord Tywin when Tyrion entered the common room.

AGOT Eddard VII

Robert nodded, wiping tears from his eyes. "Cousins. Sons of Lord Tywin's brother. One of the dead ones. Or perhaps the live one, now that I come to think on it. I don't recall. My wife comes from a very large family, Ned."

A very ambitious family, Ned thought. He had nothing against the squires, but it troubled him to see Robert surrounded by the queen's kin, waking and sleeping. The Lannister appetite for offices and honors seemed to know no bounds.

 

On 11/5/2018 at 8:46 PM, Lady Barbrey said:

The greendreamer Jojen says: "I swear by earth and water." 

These are the raw ingredients but notice these are separated from each other.  An earth greenseer to make a fire being, a water greenseer to make an ice magic being?

The weapons proficient Meera says: "I swear by bronze and iron". 

This is the forging or mixing process, and interestingly, bronze and iron weapons are not usually made the same way. Both require heat, but one is by mold, the other by hammering.  So something similar to these different processes for each raw ingedient?  I have posted before that Winterfell, that contains the Heart tree, hot springs, bottomless freezing pool, and root and water to circulate, is the perfect place to forge anything magical, be it magical sword or magical human.

Then both swear by "ice and fire" - the result, magic ice and fire beings.  

The Others are made from water Greenseers, forged like iron, and transformed to ice beings. (You can start to see here a relationship to both the Rhoynar and the Ironborn).

The Valyrians are made from earth Greenseers, forged like bronze, and transformed to fire beings.

I like this because if you look at the forging process, (I watched fast forwarded on youtube) you can even see how the differences in forging correspond to differences in the final result of ice or fire people.

So that ancient oath could very well be a recipe, carried through the thousands of years as an oath so it was never forgotten. 

But I only went into this because water magic greenseers + iron + fire enemies = Rhoynar can also be = Others, if you take the forging process into account.

Grayscale is death.  Val says it and means it.  It is like the magic sucks the water right out of the flesh to leave it petrified.  But doesn't this death connotation also ring true for the Others, who are necromancers? 

Way off topic, but It's surprising how some of our independent ideas are coming at the same things from different directions. 

I didn’t notice this about Jojen and Meera’s oath before. It’s a lot like Mirri’s process for raising Drago. Her knife is leaf-shaped (CotF) and bronze. But it has glyphs which are Valyrian. Drago is in a bath (water), but the blood of the horse is added (fire). She sings a song. There’s old powers: a wolf and a flaming person.

I agree that the Rhoyne’s water magic is akin to what we see with the Others. The wights, stonemen (and the Undying!) are all extremely dehydrated. The progression of greyscale is actually not unlike frostbite, which when you think about it, is when the flesh becomes too cold thus I assume affecting the flow of anything water-based.

Also, Arya learns water dancing, and I think the FM use water magic (or maybe mostly water magic) as they’re opposed to dragons/Valyria, and the magic involves pouring one’s identity into a face or mold if you will, and letting that shape you. Just like water.

Nice catch on how the metals are manipulated, but do you have iron and bronze reversed? Iron is linked to blood which is linked to fire. The Others hate iron and iron is used to hold the stone statues captive, maybe to keep greyscale in place as hinted by the Rhoynar interest in iron. Glyphs are Valyrian and runes are linked to Old God stuff and the Royces have bronze armor with runes. The Thenns are linked to bronze. Bronze takes the shape of that which contains it just like water.

It seems like Jojen’s line of swearing by earth and water should be reversed, but I think your interpretation is close because it’s much like what we see with Mirri.

AGOT Bran IV

Old Nan nodded. "In that darkness, the Others came for the first time," she said as her needles went click click click. "They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins. 

 

 

[Lollygag]

On 11/9/2018 at 6:43 PM, Lady Barbrey said:

Another good catch. I think It's him and he's dead.

You know, something that might help nail the Gerion is Illyrio so he's dead is The Sailors Wife and daughter Lanna.  Unfortunately I can't do Search Westeros so will have to look this up in the books when I'm home.

It seems pretty pointed that Lanna is a Lannister and people have thought she might be Tyrion's child or Gerion's.

But Yna says she tasted the Sailors Wife's blood and the husband she's been waiting for is dead.  I never doubt this kind of thing, so that means it isn't Tyrion.  

If It's Gerion, then he's dead.  So what I want to find out is whether the chapter Yna said she tasted the blood and he's dead comes before or after the chapter where we surmise Illyrio is dead, the hands cleaved off, in a timeline.

Honestly, that will kind of nail it for me if so, both that Illyrio is dead and that he was Gerion Lannister.  Because why bother with these hints unless that's true.  If either you or @Lollygag have access before I do and can tell what the timeline was, I'd sure appreciate it.

Edit to Add: I looked up chapter order on Feast for Dragons, the combined books, and according to it, The Merchantman chapter comes before the Yna thing.  So she is right: the Sailors Wife's husband really is dead if he was Gerion and Gerion was Illyrio.

So, Lollygag, you better link me to your theory about Gerion, cause I'm ready to buy it, have some more support for it, and if we accept that's who he is, we have a pretty good idea of what Varys was doing for him in Westeros.  Undermining Tywin to begin with, and isn't it amazing how many in line of inheritance to Casterly Rock have died, disappeared or been disallowed this past fifteen years. Varys's hands are all over at least half of them.

Before you buy in completely, I'll reveal where it really goes full throttle crackpot. I have trouble buying it myself, but so much points that way. Actually you finding the connection between piracy and both Illyrio and Gerion made me more firm in this.

ADWD Tyrion V

"The dead do not rise," insisted Haldon Halfmaester, "and no man lives a thousand years. Yes, there is a Shrouded Lord. There have been a score of them. When one dies another takes his place. This one is a corsair from the Basilisk Islands who believed the Rhoyne would offer richer pickings than the Summer Sea."

 

So Gerion = Illyrio = Shrouded Lord Prince of Sorrows. It's not quite as crazy as it sounds. One of the 12 Labors of Hercules is Geryon who is three people in one and he has a lot of cows. That dead sea cow under Casterly Rock reference may have more than one meaning, especially given Jaime's dream of things in the water deep in Casterly Rock. On the side, I'm undecided whether the Shrouded Lord is truly dead, undead, or what, but if Gerion is Lanna's father, this might be that he's dead. It also explains Illyrio's connection to stone hands.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/Herakles/cattle.html

ADWD Tyrion III (Gerion like Tytos is the Laughing Lion. Illyrio also laughs a great deal. Below we see the Shrouded Lord linked to Lann and Casterly Rock)

This time Duck laughed, and Haldon said, "What a droll little fellow you are, Yollo. They say that the Shrouded Lord will grant a boon to any man who can make him laugh. Perhaps His Grey Grace will choose you to ornament his stony court."

…

His grey kiss. The thought made his flesh crawl. Death had lost its terror for Tyrion Lannister, but greyscale was another matter. The Shrouded Lord is just a legend, he told himself, no more real than the ghost of Lann the Clever that some claim haunts Casterly Rock. Even so, he held his tongue.

 

ADWD Tyrion V (Lions are proud, and proudest of all recalls the lion as the king of beasts)

"We are made of blood and bone, in the image of the Father and the Mother," said Septa Lemore. "Make no vainglorious boasts, I beg you. Pride is a grievous sin. The stone men were proud as well, and the Shrouded Lord was proudest of them all."

 

ADWD Tyrion VI (The Shrouded Lord is linked to Tywin Lannister)

He dreamt of his lord father and the Shrouded Lord. He dreamt that they were one and the same, and when his father wrapped stone arms around him and bent to give him his grey kiss, he woke with his mouth dry and rusty with the taste of blood and his heart hammering in his chest.

So there seems to be a big connection between the Lannisters and greyscale/Shrouded Lord in general, not just Illyrio/Gerion. Gerion is a Lannister little brother. Gerion was linked to spice lords and Maggy is part of the Spicer clan.

AFFC Cersei IV
The old woman was not done with her, however. "Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds," she said. "And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

 

I don't have a proper theory laid out for Illyrio = Gerion, but a lot of it and the Lannisters' connection to greyscale and the Shrouded Lord is here. https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/148905-is-craster-a-casterly-now-with-plot-relevance/&tab=comments#comment-8056630

[Rufus Snow]

On 11/6/2018 at 1:46 AM, Lady Barbrey said:

I think there might be a time issue though - Gerion only disappeared a little over ten years ago.  Doesn't Illyrio seem too well-entrenched, rich and Pentosi to be Gerion? Wouldn't Tyrion have noticed something familiar about him despite his girth?  It stretches probability, though it's not impossible, he did not notice anything.

This is my biggest difficulty with Gerion as Illyrio - if he disappeared when Tyrion was 18yo as per text, that was only in 291 or 292AC - a mere six or seven years before the beginning of AGoT. However, that said, all else seems to fit in nicely, especially @Lollygag's latest regarding the Shrouded Lord and so on... and also Gerion as a possible valonqar has a certain ring to it....

Six or seven years for 'Gerion' to become 'Illyrio' does seem a rapid transition, though we must recall he did visit the Free Cities earlier, on his 'coming of age' tour around 261 to 262AC. Who knows what connections he may have made then? I'm not sure I want to coin the phrase 'fIlliyrio' as it sounds like something you'd find on the menu of a Lysene pillow house, but if fIllyrio is Gerion, was there ever a real Illyrio who he has replaced, or is it all a false identity created by Gerion?

[norwaywolf123]

On 8/15/2018 at 10:49 PM, Lord Varys said:

Varys' parentage is sort of another matter. Our favorite eunuch most definitely didn't father Prince Aegon.

No chance that the castration was a botched one?  

On 8/15/2018 at 10:49 PM, Lord Varys said:

Originally, this was one of my favorites. It plays best with the whole 'power is where people believe it is' thing. Varys can be a descendant of Targaryens/Blackfyres but Illyrio might just pay his debts of affection and provide Varys with the boy to shape into the king he could not father himself. Varys could also be the last scion of House Blackfyre - through the female line.

What is your favorite now?

On 8/15/2018 at 9:35 PM, Lord Varys said:

If we take George's words on Bittersteel's children as confirmation that he definitely had none - which seems not unlikely at this point - then how do we spin the whole Illyrio/Aegon thing?

Are the chances better now that Aegon is actually Rhaegar's son?

Is Aegon just Illyrio's son with a whore with no special blood of note whatsoever?

Does it make more sense now to go with the idea that Prince Maegor Targaryen might figure in this equation somehow?

Or do we go we just go with Varys/Illyrio/Serra/whoever being fruits from different branches of the pretty big Blackfyre family tree, with no descendants of Bittersteel or Aerion Targaryen figuring into that all that much?

Maybe Illyrio and Varys could be descendant from the female line of House Blackfyre? Illyrio have inherited his looks from his non-Blackfyre ancestors similar to how Jon Snow takes after his mother and Ormund Baratheon took after his father. Serra could just be a lysene slave that Illyrio fathered fAegon on.

[Lollygag]

On 11/2/2018 at 2:05 AM, Lady Barbrey said:

Oh this does give me hope!  I'd forgotten about JonCon's wolf pelt entirely though it seemed so out of place when I read that bit.  And That's a great catch re the uncle's.

And yes, that irony you pointed out is exactly the one I was thinking about when I thought an Aegon Snow would be a better foil for Jon than a Blackfyre.  Thanks!

Can't believe I forgot the biggest Aegon with Stark symbolism moment.

ADWD Tyrion I

Beneath his window six cherry trees stood sentinel around a marble pool, their slender branches bare and brown. A naked boy stood on the water, poised to duel with a bravo's blade in hand. He was lithe and handsome, no older than sixteen, with straight blond hair that brushed his shoulders. So lifelike did he seem that it took the dwarf a long moment to realize he was made of painted marble, though his sword shimmered like true steel.

Across the pool stood a brick wall twelve feet high, with iron spikes along its top.

 

Here we have who many suspect to be Aegon as a stone statue, a very life-like one recalling the Winterfell crypts. The statue has what looks like a real sword with mention of iron in the same passage. He has trees around. These aren't weirwoods, but cherry trees have white blossoms (depending on the species) and red fruit which looks like drops of blood. They stand sentinel like the grey-green sentinels linked to weirwoods. The pool also puts us in mind of the godswood at Winterfell. And then the high walls...

I'm not sure what the significance of 6 trees might be and the slender, bare branches also seems important.

 

 

************************************************

Adding: White cherry blossoms in the wind would look like snow.

 

[lysmonger]

On 8/15/2018 at 2:35 PM, Lord Varys said:

If we take George's words on Bittersteel's children as confirmation that he definitely had none - which seems not unlikely at this point - then how do we spin the whole Illyrio/Aegon thing?

Are the chances better now that Aegon is actually Rhaegar's son?

Is Aegon just Illyrio's son with a whore with no special blood of note whatsoever?

Does it make more sense now to go with the idea that Prince Maegor Targaryen might figure in this equation somehow?

Or do we go we just go with Varys/Illyrio/Serra/whoever being fruits from different branches of the pretty big Blackfyre family tree, with no descendants of Bittersteel or Aerion Targaryen figuring into that all that much?

Something to note. The whole Golden Company is full of Targaryen bastards. Most of the Westerosi men in the Golden Company have quite a few drops of Targaryen blood. 

Illyrio mockingly smiles around Viserys proclaiming he was "blood of the dragon" because to him that isn't anything special. There are multiple lines of male Targaryens in the Company.