The Illyrio/Aegon thing

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

This is why I'll never be on board with this Illyrio business.

Well, this way one can make sense of the whole thing. There is a very strong hint that Aegon is actually 2-3 years younger than Rhaegar's son, so this is not unlikely. What would stretch credibility if Illyrio was actually in love with Serra when this opportunity presented itself, or just fell in love with the woman he chose to produce the child. Or they just happened to have a child already when the real Aegon died, etc.

In my opinion, the whole Serra story is just a completely invented sad love story Illyrio used to manipulate Tyrion. He knows about Tysha and Shae and everything Tyrion did/went through.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

In my opinion, the whole Serra story is just a completely invented sad love story Illyrio used to manipulate Tyrion. He knows about Tysha and Shae and everything Tyrion did/went through.

This is completely possible. Create a sob story of a lost love. I even toyed with the idea that Serra was his mother, which you know, creepy AF to use his mother's name.

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Prince Maegor might likely still get a story if/when George gets to Dunk & Egg stories about Egg's reign, but chances are very low that he is going to utilize this guy for the whole Aegon story.

I got half a groat, and not a bit more, says Ser Gerold Dayne is Aerion's heir. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The best way to deal with this Serra story is simply to assume that Illyrio fucked a considerable number of Lyseni whores to get a son with Valyrian features. Just one woman wouldn't have been enough. What if the child was a girl? What if it didn't have Valyrian features? They needed a child quickly after the real Aegon was dead - if that's what happened.

The bit in the TWOIAF about Lyseni slave breeding and merchants and princes procuring such gals with Targaryen features could explain that, no? 

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

This is completely possible. Create a sob story of a lost love. I even toyed with the idea that Serra was his mother, which you know, creepy AF to use his mother's name.

All we have of 'Serra' is some miniature Illyrio showed Tyrion - which could also be a portrait of Daenerys Targaryen. And the stretch marks of Lemore's body put her on the forefront for the candidates of Aegon's true mother. Varys/Illyrio are not stupid enough to leave their golden boy in the hand of people who don't know the entire plan/have all the facts. And Jon Connington definitely doesn't have all the facts.

The only strange part there is that Lemore doesn't look Valyrian. But then - she could dye her hair, too, and hide that from both Aegon and Connington. And her eye color is unknown at that point (although I always pointed out that the idea is very odd that she has deep purple eyes considering that Tyrion should have noted that).

3 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I got half a groat, and not a bit more, says Ser Gerold Dayne is Aerion's heir. 

Aerion's heir was Aegon V - he took the crown, Dragonstone, and the Iron Throne ;-). But I know what you mean.

I don't buy it, though. Maegor Targaryen could/would be Gerold's grandfather then, most likely, and how likely is it that Arianne Martell and others haven't mentioned that at this point. How can that not be important.

The silver-gold hair stuff there can go back to multiple Dayne-Targaryen marriages in the past - I still think Dyanna Dayne may have been a cousin of Maekar's on the Targaryen side, and afterwards we have Daella and Rhae and Vaella - any of which could have been married back in the family of Maekar's wife.

Those Daynes of High Hermitage don't have to be a particularly old cadet branch. Arthur's granduncle or grandaunt may have founded them.

3 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The bit in the TWOIAF about Lyseni slave breeding and merchants and princes procuring such gals with Targaryen features could explain that, no? 

That - and a careful plotting on side of the author. I mean, selling us the conception of a doppelgänger child as a great master plan if there was just one attempt to produce such a child - involving one potential mother - then this wouldn't be a master plan but simply a very lucky coincidence.

Even if there were no bred Lyseni bed slaves with very striking Valyrian features - if you or I were Varys/Illyrio we would try to produce such a child by working with as many women with favorable Valyrian features as possible, discarding all the children who don't meet our expectations and picking the one child which meets out expectations best. 

Perhaps we'll learn that the hair of the fat man is actually silver-gold, too, or has at least a mild silvery quality to it. The dye the guy uses to make his hair yellow might not exactly restore exactly the same blond hair color the man had in his youth.

In the end the 'Aegon is Rhaegar's son' idea actually still works surprisingly well if we just imagine Illyrio/Serra as Aegon's foster parents. That is enough to forge an emotional bond.

And the funny twist of the 'Aegon the whore's son' is that here the eunuch and the cheesemonger would not only fool the Targaryen loyalists and Westeros, but also those morons from the Golden Company some of which might actually believe or suspect that this Aegon is a distant Blackfyre descendant - when in fact this might be a lie, too. If you know what people want to believe you can fuck them.

Or there is the chance that the boy has some dragon blood but only through bastards and slaves and whores. That way he could become a dragonrider, etc. (if that's what is supposed to happen) but would have as much of a claim in his own right as hypothetical bastards of Princess Saera or Aerion Brightflame (born in Lys).

[FictionIsntReal]

On 8/16/2018 at 9:58 AM, Lord Varys said:

Illyrio controls the Golden Company (which he does, not Varys).

Illyrio doesn't actually control all the pieces in his game. Blackheart Toyne signed a contract years ago, but in the present day the GC have tired of Illyrio's unreliable & shifting plans. They don't decide to invade Westeros because Illyrio tells them to, as in fact Illyrio's plan is for them to go east and join with Daenerys. They go because Aegon acts boldly and convinced enough of the impatient officers (over their captain-general's reluctance) that now is the time to strike. Viserys & Danerys were supposed to be Illyrio's pawns as well, but Viserys got himself killed before he could join the Dothraki to a GC invasion. Daenerys kept involving herself in eastern cities even after Illyrio sent Barristan & Strong Belwas with ships to bring her back. Barristan & Belwas themselves don't seem to be under Illyrio's control either.

[rotting sea cow]

On 8/16/2018 at 10:04 PM, Lord Varys said:

The best way to deal with this Serra story is simply to assume that Illyrio fucked a considerable number of Lyseni whores to get a son with Valyrian features. Just one woman wouldn't have been enough. What if the child was a girl? What if it didn't have Valyrian features? They needed a child quickly after the real Aegon was dead - if that's what happened. 

Nah' it is easier to go to Lys few years after Robert's Rebellion and buy a child with Valyrian features if that is all what you want...

BTW, Could be Serra the daughter of Maelys? He died in 260 AC and if he left an eventual wife pregnant before departing to war, that daughter would have been around 25 during Robert's Rebellion, making her the heir of the Blackfyre dynasty and a possible mother for Aegon.

Anyway, thinking about it, the way Illyrio speaks of Serra shows he had true feelings towards her but doesn't indicate at all that Serra had any agency in that relation. Everything sounds like Illyrio appreciates her only as an attachment to him, not that he really loved or cared about her wishes as you would expect if they are trying a Blackfyre restoration.

 

 

 

[rotting sea cow]

4 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Illyrio doesn't actually control all the pieces in his game. Blackheart Toyne signed a contract years ago, but in the present day the GC have tired of Illyrio's unreliable & shifting plans. They don't decide to invade Westeros because Illyrio tells them to, as in fact Illyrio's plan is for them to go east and join with Daenerys. They go because Aegon acts boldly and convinced enough of the impatient officers (over their captain-general's reluctance) that now is the time to strike. Viserys & Danerys were supposed to be Illyrio's pawns as well, but Viserys got himself killed before he could join the Dothraki to a GC invasion. Daenerys kept involving herself in eastern cities even after Illyrio sent Barristan & Strong Belwas with ships to bring her back. Barristan & Belwas themselves don't seem to be under Illyrio's control either. 

and why do they follow the fat man's ever changing plans if Illyrio doesn't have any control over them?

There is that contract signed with blood, between Toyne and... whom? Illyrio, Varys, someone else? I lean towards Illyrio.

Also, in the whole Varys-Illyrio conspiracy is quite clear that Illyrio takes care of the Essosi affairs (Varys is very very busy juggling Westeros) including tracking the last Targaryens, bribing other cities officials, finding the little birds for Varys, financing the whole damn thing, keeping an direct eye on Aegon and a hot line with the Golden Company.

Whatever is behind Aegon, it is clear it is very important for Illyrio, still for unknown reasons.

 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

2 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

and why do they follow the fat man's ever changing plans if Illyrio doesn't have any control over them?

I think the point is that eventually they stop following his plans and do their own thing.

I think it would be reasonable to say he has influence over them, but not absolute control.

[rotting sea cow]

1 minute ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I think the point is that eventually they stop following his plans and do their own thing.

I think it would be reasonable to say he has influence over them, but not absolute control.

Of course not, Illyrio and Varys do delegates things and it has been the bane for them regarding their plans about  Daenerys (just think what Jorah, Barristan and Tyrion have done to their plans). Also Illyrio reluctance to move his ass out of Pentos, makes it everything worse.

Anyway, clearly there were instructions to make decisions once Aegon is in Volantis and JonCon has also enough authority to move them.

I would have payed to see the dismal faces of Illyrio and Varys once they knew that Dany is not coming and Aegon sailed West without dragons.

 

 

[rotting sea cow]

On 8/17/2018 at 2:57 AM, Lord Varys said:

And the funny twist of the 'Aegon the whore's son' is that here the eunuch and the cheesemonger would not only fool the Targaryen loyalists and Westeros, but also those morons from the Golden Company some of which might actually believe or suspect that this Aegon is a distant Blackfyre descendant - when in fact this might be a lie, too. If you know what people want to believe you can fuck them.

I can see Varys still caring if that was the case, out of ideological reasons. The perfect prince can be breed! But how do you explain all that fat, corrupt, heartless Illyrio does for the plan? Love for Varys? There is something else....

[Euron Lannister]

i'm happy with this, Realgon would/will be more fun than a blackfyre claiming to be a targaryen.

as for the targaryen, but not rhaegar's son theory, i don't know why that would be relevant, women were skipped over by the targaryens most of the time and so he would have a stronger claim then dany no matter who his father was, at least in the eyes of many lords and thats what matters

[Lord Varys]

7 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Illyrio doesn't actually control all the pieces in his game. Blackheart Toyne signed a contract years ago, but in the present day the GC have tired of Illyrio's unreliable & shifting plans. They don't decide to invade Westeros because Illyrio tells them to, as in fact Illyrio's plan is for them to go east and join with Daenerys. They go because Aegon acts boldly and convinced enough of the impatient officers (over their captain-general's reluctance) that now is the time to strike. Viserys & Danerys were supposed to be Illyrio's pawns as well, but Viserys got himself killed before he could join the Dothraki to a GC invasion. Daenerys kept involving herself in eastern cities even after Illyrio sent Barristan & Strong Belwas with ships to bring her back. Barristan & Belwas themselves don't seem to be under Illyrio's control either.

Illyrio directs the Golden Company. He tells that what to do, where to go, etc. Sure, they don't ask for his opinion when Aegon and Connington come, but at that point that's no longer necessary. It is Aegon's plan to go to Westeros, and they do as he tells them - which is also part of the plan. Aegon is set up to be a king, not a pawn.

2 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Nah' it is easier to go to Lys few years after Robert's Rebellion and buy a child with Valyrian features if that is all what you want...

But that is likely not what they did, no? If they did that, they could have bought a child that's exactly as old as Rhaegar's son. But there are hints that Connington's Aegon is somewhat younger.

2 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

BTW, Could be Serra the daughter of Maelys? He died in 260 AC and if he left an eventual wife pregnant before departing to war, that daughter would have been around 25 during Robert's Rebellion, making her the heir of the Blackfyre dynasty and a possible mother for Aegon.

That could be, but somehow I don't see Maelys Blackfyre as a man who married. Even more so, if he was married then the Targaryens should have kept an eye on his wife and children. Illyrio/Varys/Serra/whoever could easily be descendants of Daemon III through the female line, from some of his brothers/sisters, descendants of Aenys Blackfyre, of Daemon (IV), the two younger sons, of Haegon through the female line, etc.

I imagine Maelys was truly the last Blackfyre through the male line when he died, and there weren't even any female Blackfyre around at that time, only obscure descendants of female Blackfyres.

2 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Anyway, thinking about it, the way Illyrio speaks of Serra shows he had true feelings towards her but doesn't indicate at all that Serra had any agency in that relation. Everything sounds like Illyrio appreciates her only as an attachment to him, not that he really loved or cared about her wishes as you would expect if they are trying a Blackfyre restoration.

Illyrio tells a sad tale, but we don't know if the Serra woman even existed. We never even see her hands. All we have is a miniature portrait which could just as well be Illyrio's own mother, Queen Rhaella, or Daenerys.

2 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

There is that contract signed with blood, between Toyne and... whom? Illyrio, Varys, someone else? I lean towards Illyrio.

Definitely between the Golden Company and Illyrio/Varys. It might be a contract written in blood involving all the participants or only one of them and Toyne. But it is a strong hint that Varys/Illyrio's blood is important in that context.

2 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I think the point is that eventually they stop following his plans and do their own thing.

I think it would be reasonable to say he has influence over them, but not absolute control.

Nobody ever said anything about absolute control. Illyrio himself anticipates that they might have to make adjustments to the plan, and that Tyrion should then do what Connington tells him to do because he knows best. Their pieces know how to do as they are told, and they get more than enough leeway to act independently yet still in the interests of the overall plan.

2 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Of course not, Illyrio and Varys do delegates things and it has been the bane for them regarding their plans about  Daenerys (just think what Jorah, Barristan and Tyrion have done to their plans). Also Illyrio reluctance to move his ass out of Pentos, makes it everything worse.

Anyway, clearly there were instructions to make decisions once Aegon is in Volantis and JonCon has also enough authority to move them.

I would have payed to see the dismal faces of Illyrio and Varys once they knew that Dany is not coming and Aegon sailed West without dragons.

It still goes all according to plan. Varys/Illyrio would also have told them to move to Westeros now instead of waiting much longer. Dany could be included into the plan - or not - depending whether she survives and ever comes west. You cannot postpone this thing indefinitely. Else the powers in Westeros will consolidate and other players will exploit the power vacuum that's there right now.

They were likely not happy, though, when they learned about Dany's decision to stay in Meereen, just as they would have been pretty stricken when they learned about Viserys' death and devastated when they heard of Drogo's death.

2 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

I can see Varys still caring if that was the case, out of ideological reasons. The perfect prince can be breed! But how do you explain all that fat, corrupt, heartless Illyrio does for the plan? Love for Varys? There is something else....

I think it is pretty likely that Illyrio turns out to be Aegon's dad if he isn't Rhaegar's son, but Illyrio could indeed just be on board with Varys' plans for Westeros because it is going to give him more power and prestige. He doesn't have to be personally involved in Westeros all that much. Although one of them has to have some such connection.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But there are hints that Connington's Aegon is somewhat younger.

Some, but that's also an argument to suggest he's a Targaryen or a Blackfyre, as Targaryens are often thought to be younger than they are.

 

24 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Nobody ever said anything about absolute control.

Sure. I was just trying to say that everyone can be right in this case. Illyrio can direct the Golden Company, while at the same time they could go against his wishes.

26 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I think it is pretty likely that Illyrio turns out to be Aegon's dad if he isn't Rhaegar's son, but Illyrio could indeed just be on board with Varys' plans for Westeros because it is going to give him more power and prestige. He doesn't have to be personally involved in Westeros all that much. Although one of them has to have some such connection.

Agreed. I see these two as essentially being partners in crime. The idea of being the puppetmaster behind the takeover of the 7K, and being able to profit from that takeover, would appeal to a man like Illyrio even if he doesn’t have a personal stake in it.

[Lady Anna]

Tbh I'm torn on this subject because part of me believes Aegon is who he says he is (it makes sense narratively and symbolically); however another part of me believes he's a Blackfyre, MOSTLY cause I've read the novellas so I have that info in mind (but that's the thing, this is not information contained in the main series; also - if we hadn't read them, would you believe he or Illyrio or Varys are Blackfyres or would you just believe they're con artists?).

But I have some questions, if I may:

if he's a Blackfyre what would that entail exactly? What would that /change/? Only his supposed birthright I guess but why is a conflict with Dany inevitable? Or it isn't?

Sorry if you've already talked about this, but I don't follow these discussions.

[FictionIsntReal]

On 8/21/2018 at 6:39 AM, Lord Varys said:

Illyrio directs the Golden Company. He tells that what to do, where to go, etc. Sure, they don't ask for his opinion when Aegon and Connington come, but at that point that's no longer necessary. It is Aegon's plan to go to Westeros, and they do as he tells them - which is also part of the plan. Aegon is set up to be a king, not a pawn.

The GC has been acting autonomously in the time between Myles Toyne signing that contract and Ilyrio's request that they finally make good on it. They follow a Captain-General, not a fat merchant (or even an impractical Blackfyre, in the case of Daemon II). Harry Strickland was willing (though reluctant) to break the other contract they had taken (presumably without Illyrio's input), but he doesn't simply "do as Aegon tells him". He's outnumbered by all the captains who agree to Aegon's plan, and their argument isn't based on Aegon's authority. Instead they disparage the reliability of Illyrio & his plans, say the Iron Throne will never be weaker than it is currently and that their opportunities are better there than in Essos. Harry isn't made to go along by Aegon's order or because he thinks that's what Illyrio would want (he actually argues for trying to adhere to Illyrio's plan), but because of his own men. Jon Connington is also surprised when Young Griff speaks up, because him giving such orders wasn't part of the plan. While very personally invested in Young Griff, he's inclined to the quicker & riskier action because he has greyscale.

[Lord Varys]

On 8/21/2018 at 2:07 PM, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Some, but that's also an argument to suggest he's a Targaryen or a Blackfyre, as Targaryens are often thought to be younger than they are.

That is true, and it is in fact one of the points that can be raised that Aegon might, in fact, be Rhaegar's son. The other is that Tyrion also made a mistake guessing Jon's age, thinking he was twelve rather than fourteen.

On 8/21/2018 at 2:07 PM, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Sure. I was just trying to say that everyone can be right in this case. Illyrio can direct the Golden Company, while at the same time they could go against his wishes.

The thing is - we don't know his wishes when they talk about the new plan. They all expected to wait for Daenerys at Volantis. Nobody had any plan to actually travel to her and try to convince her to go to Westeros. We don't know what Varys/Illyrio would have said they been there - having Aegon go there the Quentyn way sounds like a very stupid idea to me since that would definitely make him nothing but a beggar (by waiting for Dany at Volantis with the Golden Company they would have been roughly on equal footing). And taking the entire Golden Company with them would be difficult, postpone the entire enterprise even further, and risk that the powers in Westeros (who would also get more time to consolidate things) find out about this Targaryen restoration thing so that the moment of surprise and awe is lost.

If the Lannisters/Tyrells, etc. could prepare and spread propaganda among the common people that some impostor is coming with the mad daughter of the Mad King then things might not go so well for them when the finally arrive (although the dragons would always work in their favor, as signs of power and legitimacy).

In that sense, I'd not be surprised if Varys/Illyrio had not seconded Aegon's idea if they had been there, with perhaps the caveat of sending some trusted envoys to Meereen to tell Dany about Aegon and urging her to come and help them.

Varys himself does not complain to Kevan that Aegon came without Daenerys or the dragons. He doesn't seem to be distraught or displease by the way things unfolded.

On 8/21/2018 at 2:07 PM, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Agreed. I see these two as essentially being partners in crime. The idea of being the puppetmaster behind the takeover of the 7K, and being able to profit from that takeover, would appeal to a man like Illyrio even if he doesn’t have a personal stake in it.

It could work. I don't think it is the full truth. But it is certainly not a scenario that makes no sense.

However, I doubt that they would have cared about the Iron Throne if any of them didn't have any connection to it or House Targaryen. That just doesn't make much sense. Especially not from Varys' point of view. I mean, why give a damn about the children of Westeros and not those of Essos? Why work for a Mad King in a capacity that earns you only scorn and hate from your peers and the people, doesn't allow you to enjoy the wealth you have acquired over the years, and puts you in constant danger due to the fact that you could lose the favor of the king at any time?

If Varys had been invited to be Master of Coin and had amassed even more wealth in that office than he did back in Pentos with Illyrio his motivation might be understandable. But the man has literally nothing in his cell (granted, that's not his *real lair*, but I don't expect him to sit on a heap of gold down in that well he is hiding).

40 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

The GC has been acting autonomously in the time between Myles Toyne signing that contract and Ilyrio's request that they finally make good on it. They follow a Captain-General, not a fat merchant (or even an impractical Blackfyre, in the case of Daemon II). Harry Strickland was willing (though reluctant) to break the other contract they had taken (presumably without Illyrio's input), but he doesn't simply "do as Aegon tells him". He's outnumbered by all the captains who agree to Aegon's plan, and their argument isn't based on Aegon's authority. Instead they disparage the reliability of Illyrio & his plans, say the Iron Throne will never be weaker than it is currently and that their opportunities are better there than in Essos. Harry isn't made to go along by Aegon's order or because he thinks that's what Illyrio would want (he actually argues for trying to adhere to Illyrio's plan), but because of his own men. Jon Connington is also surprised when Young Griff speaks up, because him giving such orders wasn't part of the plan. While very personally invested in Young Griff, he's inclined to the quicker & riskier action because he has greyscale.

Illyrio made all the plans the Golden Company was executing before. He told them about Aegon. He made the Dothraki-Viserys plan. He made the Aegon-Daenerys plan. And the Golden Company went to Volantis to meet Aegon and Connington there because Illyrio told them to do that. 

Back during the Second Rebellion there was no Golden Company yet, by the way. It was only founded a year later, presumably in reaction to the disaster at Whitewalls.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

@Ran,

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/15819

The report states:

Spoiler

First Q re Oberyn’s 4th child Loraiza Martell. Is that her mom’s name?

A: haven’t given it a lot of thought?

This report on the same question correctly states that the question was regarding Loreza (not Loraiza), and whether it was the name of the Princess of Dorne, (Oberyn's mother, not "her mom's"). For that matter, the phrasing of the answer is also different.

Quote

Asked by @jolannister if the Princess of Dorne's name was Loreza due to the names of Oberyn's daughters, #grrm said she had given it more thought than he had. #asoiaf

Is there any way to reflect this in the ssm (perhaps by linking to this tweet for the corrections)?

 

Also, to add the question and answer regarding Bittersteel (as reported by both twitter accounts)

Quote

Q from Aziz of @WesterosHistory: did Bittersteel have children

A: No I don’t think so.

 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

On 8/15/2018 at 11:04 PM, Lord Varys said:

And speaking about that - @Ran and everybody else: Oberyn's duel with Lord Yronwood did not, in fact, take place while Doran Martell was already Prince of Dorne, nor could Doran have been the one to move swiftly to resolve the situation. The Arianne chapter from TWoW claiming this is wrong of that matter. Doran may have advised his mother on the issue, but he couldn't have been the one making the decision. That would have been X Nymeria Martell, the Princess of Dorne.

When reading that passage, I had figured that it was an indication that the Princess of Dorne had simply not been healthy enough to deal with the matter, or had otherwise not been able to personally deal with the situation, and thus had her son and heir deal with the matter instead, acting in her stead.

[Bowen Marsh]

On 8/15/2018 at 3:35 PM, Lord Varys said:

If we take George's words on Bittersteel's children as confirmation that he definitely had none - which seems not unlikely at this point - then how do we spin the whole Illyrio/Aegon thing?

Are the chances better now that Aegon is actually Rhaegar's son?

Is Aegon just Illyrio's son with a whore with no special blood of note whatsoever?

Does it make more sense now to go with the idea that Prince Maegor Targaryen might figure in this equation somehow?

Or do we go we just go with Varys/Illyrio/Serra/whoever being fruits from different branches of the pretty big Blackfyre family tree, with no descendants of Bittersteel or Aerion Targaryen figuring into that all that much?

Why not a great-grandson of Aerion Brightflame.  There should be a lot of blonde boys in Essos with a small amount of Valyrian blood.  He doesn't have to be a Blackfyre to have Valyrian blood.

[Lord Varys]

49 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

When reading that passage, I had figured that it was an indication that the Princess of Dorne had simply not been healthy enough to deal with the matter, or had otherwise not been able to personally deal with the situation, and thus had her son and heir deal with the matter instead, acting in her stead.

While this could technically be the case we really do know that Doran simply wasn't the Prince of Dorne at that point, and unless his mother was a lackwit or a human vegetable at this point (and later miraculously recovered to be able to arrange her daughter's marriage) she would have still be the one to authorize any agreement Sunspear reached with House Yronwood. Doran Martell wasn't the head of House Martell nor the ruler of Dorne at this point. His mother was. And even if she had been away or incapacitated any agreement Doran reached with the Yronwoods would have been preliminary until such a time as the Princess of Dorne ratified or confirmed it.

It still makes sense to attribute the conciliatory approach to Doran, of course, but not in a way that implies - and that's what the text does - that Doran Martell already acted as the Prince of Dorne at this point. In that sense this is a mistake or can be seen as such by a careful reader.

But the real reason why I brought this up is that this is *the opportunity* for Arianne to actually mention her paternal grandmother by name. Perhaps the Princess of Dorne was at court in KL at the time, or abroad in Essos, or indeed sick or otherwise incapacitated and had laid Dorne into the hands of her son and heir - but then this would be the place to insert a sentence like 'Because her grandmother X had been away/incapacitated/whatever her father acted swiftly...'

Or Arianne could attribute her grandmother's decision - if she as the Princess of Dorne was there and made the call - to Doran's wise counsel. This would be a pretty interesting way to deal with it, especially if the mother's personality was closer to Oberyn than Doran - or if Oberyn was her favorite child and she was completely on board with what he did.

I mean, at this point the lack of background for the recent generation of the Martells really starts to stretch credibility. It is time that the Princess of Dorne and her consort - Doran's father - get name-dropped, just as it is past time that Lyarra Stark gets mentioned in the text and her story told. Her story is one of the main recent history elements I expect to be told or at least hinted at in TWoW. Not just her untimely death but also the story of her marriage to Rickard. Was this thing arranged or did they fall in love? Did they get along? And so on.

53 minutes ago, Bowen Marsh said:

Why not a great-grandson of Aerion Brightflame.  There should be a lot of blonde boys in Essos with a small amount of Valyrian blood.  He doesn't have to be a Blackfyre to have Valyrian blood.

Then the whole Blackfyre thing would serve no purpose in the overall ASoIaF story and Illyrio's ominous remark that House Blackfyre is only extinct in the male line would be for nothing.