Better Call Saul -- Season 4 Better Get Emmy

[SeanF]

9 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Yes, more than any show that comes to my mind BCS shows how all the little compromises eventually add up to a big change, you keep breaking the rules and your own rules for 'reasons' and one day, you look in the mirror and you're a different person.

That's a worry for any lawyer, including myself.

Oh, imagine if the producers of BSC had made Game of Thrones! 

And I see Vince Gilligan has described Kim's storyline as "an impending tragedy."

[dbunting]

Kim hasn't been corrupted, this is a side of her that we have seen all along. Back in S1 or 2 she was happily part of Jimmy's scams in the bars to get free drinks and stuff. She has a personality who likes the bad side of life, Jimmy is her enabler. These are her choices to make and she willingly does them and gets satisfaction out of it. Don't take away from her character by blaming Saul. 

[SeanF]

29 minutes ago, dbunting said:

Kim hasn't been corrupted, this is a side of her that we have seen all along. Back in S1 or 2 she was happily part of Jimmy's scams in the bars to get free drinks and stuff. She has a personality who likes the bad side of life, Jimmy is her enabler. These are her choices to make and she willingly does them and gets satisfaction out of it. Don't take away from her character by blaming Saul. 

Kim has to bear responsibility for her own choices, but Saul/Jimmy has been a bad influence on her, more than she was a good influence on him.

I accept that there is a side of her that has always been drawn to dishonesty.

[dbunting]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Kim has to bear responsibility for her own choices, but Saul/Jimmy has been a bad influence on her, more than she was a good influence on him.

I accept that there is a side of her that has always been drawn to dishonesty.

Sure, but that's what an enabler is. They have a sort of codependent relationship, she helps keep him from total recklessness and he provides her with a spark of the naughty side. Jimmy is now Saul and won't go back to being Jimmy, Kim still can reel herself in and "save" herself.

[Cas Stark]

Jimmy is the proverbial 'bad influence' that parents don't want their children to date or hang out with for the very reason that he will encourage and enable behavior from someone like Kim who would never have acted in these ways on her own.  Kim would always have been sensitive and sad for the old man, as she always sees herself in the underdogs,  but she would never have crossed all these lines, the last being breaking and entering, and whatever BS she has in mind with the copyright.  She must now be up to dozens of actions that are cause for disbarment and a handful of things that would cross the line into prosecutable crimes.   To me, she is lost, although VG will probably give her an out and she will leave stage left, sadder and more damaged but still to have her own life.  

[dbunting]

15 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Jimmy is the proverbial 'bad influence' that parents don't want their children to date or hang out with for the very reason that he will encourage and enable behavior from someone like Kim who would never have acted in these ways on her own.  

Someone who has an attraction to a certain type will always seek it out because it fulfills something they are looking for. In real life if she and Jimmy separated she would end up with another "Jimmy". She has gotten a taste of the bad life and she likes it, much like an addict she will seek it out in future people unless she gets treatment of some type.

[Cas Stark]

13 minutes ago, dbunting said:

Someone who has an attraction to a certain type will always seek it out because it fulfills something they are looking for. In real life if she and Jimmy separated she would end up with another "Jimmy". She has gotten a taste of the bad life and she likes it, much like an addict she will seek it out in future people unless she gets treatment of some type.

Yeah,  you are probably right.  I'm also probably alone here in being completely turned off by the fact that not only is she now actively working to sabotage her client's project but she's willing to personally harm his reputation, even after he took a huge chance on hiring her in the first place, and even after she and Jimmy ruined Chuck in order to get his account back.  So, to me, she's beyond salvation, but I am almost surely in the minority on that just as I was in the minority of feeling more sympathy for Chuck than for Jimmy.  

[RumHam]

I was really glad Richard called her out on the "oh what a coincidence he hired Jimmy!" thing cause it seemed insane that no one else had. 

The mike stuff seems like they're spinning wheels a little. After he killed Werner I was ready to accept he was all in with Gus. Now they've backed that up a little. He somehow has to turn into the guy who advised Walt to kill Jessie and threatened to beat Saul till his legs didn't work, but it feels like they're going in the opposite direction? But we'll see what they do with it. 

[Consigliere]

I always thought Kim would end up practicing elder law after that episode where she took Jimmy's rolodex after he had burned his bridges with the retirement community. Kim likes batting for the underdog and it was mentioned several times in previous seasons what a noble profession elder law is. Now, I'm not so sure. Things have taken a dark turn for Kim and the chances of it ending badly for her have gone up but I'm hoping that Gilligan wouldn't take the character down an irredeemable path. 

[Le Cygne]

On 3/17/2020 at 6:06 PM, SeanF said:

After Episode 5, I think we've reached a watershed.  Saul has corrupted Kim.  Gus has corrupted Mike.  Not so much in the case of the latter (he's much further down that road already).  But, I think we've reached a point where Kim will now cut any corner to achieve her ends. Will she pull back from it, or will she go down to the bitter end?

I don't think Jimmy corrupted Kim. She chose to be with him. She's very willingly doing these things. She's getting off on it, in fact. They both are. The real Kim is coming out. And it's a great story. That's the brilliant twist of the writers. This is a much better story than bad Jimmy, poor Kim. She's in the driver's seat this way. They are heading for a fall, but there's a certain honesty to it that's fascinating.

(As for Mike, I don't think Gus corrupted him, either. He's making choices, too.)

[SeanF]

7 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Yeah,  you are probably right.  I'm also probably alone here in being completely turned off by the fact that not only is she now actively working to sabotage her client's project but she's willing to personally harm his reputation, even after he took a huge chance on hiring her in the first place, and even after she and Jimmy ruined Chuck in order to get his account back.  So, to me, she's beyond salvation, but I am almost surely in the minority on that just as I was in the minority of feeling more sympathy for Chuck than for Jimmy.  

Much as I like Kim, I don't sympathise with her at all over this,. She really has crossed a line.

[SeanF]

3 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

I don't think Jimmy corrupted Kim. She chose to be with him. She's very willingly doing these things. She's getting off on it, in fact. They both are. The real Kim is coming out. And it's a great story. That's the brilliant twist of the writers. This is a much better story than bad Jimmy, poor Kim. She's in the driver's seat this way. They are heading for a fall, but there's a certain honesty to it that's fascinating.

(As for Mike, I don't think Gus corrupted him, either. He's making choices, too.)

On reflection, that's correct.

[Ferrum Aeternum]

Kim has certainly gotten a thrill out of her and Jimmy’s con games, and as the stakes have gotten higher that has intensified. At this point it seems she feels bulletproof. It’s clear to me that their game is about to hit a brick wall named Kevin. Fuck’s sake, he even TOLD her that he smelled a rat, he just hadn’t quite put it all together at that point. Schweikart knows she’s headed for trouble too - he tried to give her an out, but she still thinks that between she and Jimmy they can outmaneuver anyone. That hubris is about to catch up with her. 

[Le Cygne]

4 hours ago, SeanF said:

On reflection, that's correct.

Yeah, so many interviews with the showrunners for several seasons now, they've been telling us Kim sure seems to enjoy this.

She always has, and Jimmy calls her Giselle again. Jimmy knows her better than anyone. And he is the one trying to hold her back this time. All those little smiles she gave, and there were quite a few this episode, show us Kim is driving her own story.

Also more thoughts, she's angry at Kevin, and men like him. He's a bully. Chuck was a bully, too. She's sticking it to Kevin because he's a pompous ass who should have backed off of the old man. He has a great alternative she's been giving him all along.

She knows what it's like to be the underdog. She defended Jimmy when Chuck was bullying him. She defended Huell, and others. And now the old man Kevin is evicting. While there's a sense of beware, it's fun to watch them stick it to the man.

The montages are done with humor, it's fun when Victor and Giselle come out to play. And this turns her on. Like way back when she kissed Jimmy after the first Victor and Giselle, to all the scenes this season, like after throwing the bottles, and this episode.

[SeanF]

5 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Yeah, so many interviews with the showrunners for several seasons now, they've been telling us Kim sure seems to enjoy this.

She always has, and Jimmy calls her Giselle again. Jimmy knows her better than anyone. And he is the one trying to hold her back this time. All those little smiles she gave, and there were quite a few this episode, show us Kim is driving her own story.

Also more thoughts, she's angry at Kevin, and men like him. He's a bully. Chuck was a bully, too. She's sticking it to Kevin because he's a pompous ass who should have backed off of the old man. He has a great alternative she's been giving him all along.

She knows what it's like to be the underdog. She defended Jimmy when Chuck was bullying him. She defended Huell, and others. And now the old man Kevin is evicting. While there's a sense of beware, it's fun to watch them stick it to the man.

The montages are done with humor, it's fun when Victor and Giselle come out to play. And this turns her on. Like way back when she kissed Jimmy after the first Victor and Giselle, to all the scenes this season, like after throwing the bottles, and this episode.

Yes and no.   

The problem for me (and leaving aside the purely professional ethics side) is that Kevin himself is not a bad person, and has always shown a lot of faith in Kim which she's now exploiting.

But, that's what good characterisation is about - being able to see both sides' point of view.

[Consigliere]

Yeah, I don't buy that Kevin is a bully. It's sad that the old man has to move from his home but at the end of the day, Mesa Verde bought that land legally and offered compensation which all the old man's neighbours accepted. I get that Mesa Verde has a viable alternative which makes it appear that Kevin is being unreasonable but then again, why the hell should he bend over for someone who is now illegally squatting on the land that was legally purchased? It's the old man, Saul and Kim who are breaking the law here. 

[Le Cygne]

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

Yes and no.   

The problem for me (and leaving aside the purely professional ethics side) is that Kevin himself is not a bad person, and has always shown a lot of faith in Kim which she's now exploiting.

But, that's what good characterisation is about - being able to see both sides' point of view.

Yeah, if we want to look at it on the side of holding Kim up to ethics (although laws without humanity can be unjust, and I think what Kevin is doing to the old man is wrong; he's also completely ignoring Kim's concerns as a human being about what he's doing, and her appeal to him to do the right thing).

However... We can see it as a story, and it would be awfully dull to see a story about perfect people.

I think both Jimmy and Kim have a sticking up for the underdog thing going on, but are not channeling it well (understatement). They are also hurting from past wrongs, a life where they were the underdogs themselves. How can they triumph positively? Can they do so at all? Is it too late?

An as a viewer, I enjoy seeing them stick it to the man. The man needs sticking it to, and it's an escape for viewers to see people doing what they can't bring themselves to do. It's also hopefully going to be in the end a story with a message about what we can do, without undoing ourselves.

(Also, just because the law says you can kick someone out of their home and pay them less than their house is worth, doesn't make it right. And the writers via Kim gave Kevin an excellent alternative - as Paige just reiterated, at no additional cost - for a reason, to show how bull-headed Kevin is.)

[SeanF]

7 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Yeah, if we want to look at it on the side of holding Kim up to ethics (although laws without humanity can be unjust, and I think what Kevin is doing to the old man is wrong; he's also completely ignoring Kim's concerns as a human being about what he's doing, and her appeal to him to do the right thing).

However... We can see it as a story, and it would be awfully dull to see a story about perfect people.

I think both Jimmy and Kim have a sticking up for the underdog thing going on, but are not channeling it well (understatement). They are also hurting from past wrongs, a life where they were the underdogs themselves. How can they triumph positively? Can they do so at all? Is it too late?

An as a viewer, I enjoy seeing them stick it to the man. The man needs sticking it to, and it's an escape for viewers to see people doing what they can't bring themselves to do. It's also hopefully going to be in the end a story with a message about what we can do, without undoing ourselves.

(Also, just because the law says you can kick someone out of their home and pay them less than their house is worth, doesn't make it right. And the writers via Kim gave Kevin an excellent alternative - as Paige just reiterated, at no additional cost - for a reason, to show how bull-headed Kevin is.)

Just re-wratched it, and it's such a great episode.

But I'm still saying " No, Kim, No."  You can't betray your client, even if the cause is good. 

Or is that lawyers' bullshit?

[Cas Stark]

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

Just re-wratched it, and it's such a great episode.

But I'm still saying " No, Kim, No."  You can't betray your client, even if the cause is good. 

Or is that lawyers' bullshit?

No.  If she was really that disgusted by what Kevin is doing she can just fucking resign like an adult.  She wants her cake, the mesa verde money and the cushy corporate job that it has brought her, and to eat it too, to feel good about herself and to see her own views of 'justice' enacted in whatever unethical or illegal ways are needed.  That is nothing to be applauded.

I don't think Kevin is a bully.  I say again that he took a huge gamble on her, a former junior associate with no staff and no pedigree,  he still gave her his business and now she is stabbing him the back.  He is doing nothing underhanded, yes, it is too bad that the old guy has to move, but really,  it is not  the end of the world, he's being given market value for his house, isn't he?  Kim is wholly in the wrong here.  Nothing is stopping her from resigning and doing public defender work full time. 

[Minsc]

19 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Also more thoughts, she's angry at Kevin, and men like him. He's a bully. Chuck was a bully, too. She's sticking it to Kevin because he's a pompous ass who should have backed off of the old man. He has a great alternative she's been giving him all along.

Frankly, I don't see how Kevin is being either a bully or an ass.  MV legally bought the man's land and that of all his neighbors why should he relent to Acker because Acker doesn't think the law should apply to him.  Especially, when Kim's "alternative" requires the bank having to buy more land and land that has flooding issues to boot.

 

Frankly, Chuck wasn't much of a bully either.  All he didn't want was to have Jimmy work at his firm.  Kim herself wasn't willing to tire herself into a legal partnership with Jimmy either.  Kim often thinks other people should take risks or sacrifices that she refuses to do herself.