Gendarrion Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 Why Jon has refuse to sit with his friends(Halder, Grenn, Toad, Pyp and others) in ADWD? Ned always sits stewards or any Stark household during their family mealtime, and Ned also said to "know the people who follows you, don't let them die for a stranger", so i wonder about Jon's action here, he also them to Eastwatch and Shadow tower separately for no other reason than to separate them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shouldve Taken The Black Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 8 minutes ago, Gendarrion said: Why Jon has refuse to sit with his friends(Halder, Grenn, Toad, Pyp and others) in ADWD? Ned always sits stewards or any Stark household during their family mealtime, and Ned also said to "know the people who follows you, don't let them die for a stranger", so i wonder about Jon's action here, he also them to Eastwatch and Shadow tower separately for no other reason than to separate them. Because he worries about remaining too close to them, as he's now got to be their commander, not their friend. It’s different in Ned’s case, as his superiority over his servants and soldiers is never really in question. He’s the Lord of Winterfell, and he’s bestowing favour by granting his people a bit of facetime. Once Jon was an established Lord Commander, like Mormont was, he may have been able to do that. However, as a boy-commander, recently elected from the ranks, to remain buddy-buddy with your mates has some serious drawbacks. They may have a hard time taking you seriously when you issue orders. It was for this reason as well he sent his friends away, he didn’t want anyone too close to him to be around all the time. That being said, I do think that was a mistake, as he ended up surrounded by people who didn’t understand him, or know what he was doing, and he essentially dissolved his own support base. It’s a difficult line – those most likely to support him could also be a problem for being too friendly. The whole point of Jon’s stint as Lord Commander is it shows how difficult being at the top really is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus Snow Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 2 hours ago, Gendarrion said: he also them to Eastwatch and Shadow tower separately for no other reason than to separate them. I think that was also partly about getting some known loyal people into those places... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shouldve Taken The Black Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 9 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said: I think that was also partly about getting some known loyal people into those places... Possibly. I don't have a book to hand, but I'm pretty certain it was made clear that the primary motivation was to ensure he was isolated from his friends. Also, it's not like he's particularly concerned about the loyalty of Pyke or Mallister. It's all part of him "killing the boy". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus Snow Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 3 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said: Possibly. I don't have a book to hand, but I'm pretty certain it was made clear that the primary motivation was to ensure he was isolated from his friends. OK, I'll have to delve back in there, 'cause that totally passed me by Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bael's Bastard Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 Jon wanted nothing more. No, he had to tell himself, those days are gone. The realization twisted in his belly like a knife. They had chosen him to rule. The Wall was his, and their lives were his as well. A lord may love the men that he commands, he could hear his lord father saying, but he cannot be a friend to them. One day he may need to sit in judgment on them, or send them forth to die. "Another day," the lord commander lied. "Edd, best see to your own supper. I have work to finish." (ADWD: Jon III)In the haunted forest to the north, the shadows of the afternoon crept through the trees. The western sky was a blaze of red, but to the east the first stars were peeking out. Jon Snow flexed the fingers of his sword hand, remembering all he'd lost. Sam, you sweet fat fool, you played me a cruel jape when you made me lord commander. A lord commander has no friends. (ADWD: Jon XI) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son of Man Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 5 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said: Jon wanted nothing more. No, he had to tell himself, those days are gone. The realization twisted in his belly like a knife. They had chosen him to rule. The Wall was his, and their lives were his as well. A lord may love the men that he commands, he could hear his lord father saying, but he cannot be a friend to them. One day he may need to sit in judgment on them, or send them forth to die. "Another day," the lord commander lied. "Edd, best see to your own supper. I have work to finish." (ADWD: Jon III)In the haunted forest to the north, the shadows of the afternoon crept through the trees. The western sky was a blaze of red, but to the east the first stars were peeking out. Jon Snow flexed the fingers of his sword hand, remembering all he'd lost. Sam, you sweet fat fool, you played me a cruel jape when you made me lord commander. A lord commander has no friends. (ADWD: Jon XI) Jon can be somewhat objective, up to a point. That he can't be objective when it comes to the Starks, that is his problem and the cause of his downfall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count Balerion Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 I think it was a mistake too, although I understand the reasoning. He scattered his base and had no one to back him up when he had to make controversial decisions. He sems to have thought the authority of his position would protect him (although it hadn't protected Mormont). He eventually ends up using the wildlings a bit as an atlernate base (or so I understand it). Sort of by default, since they (and to some extent Stannis's people) are the only ones around who support his wildling policy. Granted, he was in an almost impossible position. The mission of the Night's Watch itself is almost impossible with the numbers they have at this point. It's easy for me to back-seat-drive; but I'm (luckily) not at the Wall! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trigger Warning Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 Ned takes turns sitting with all his men, he doesn't show favour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 The reasoning behind the decision makes some sense (but not the double standard - so an LC has no friends but still a family, no?) - but it is poorly executed. So Jon can no longer sit and drink with his friends - fine. But there is no reason to send them away, nor separate Grenn from Pyp. And it is an odd choice to send away your closest friends and then have the likes of Dolorous Edd lingering for some time until they, too, are send away to command castles. The way to use Grenn and Pyp would have been to mold them into loyal retainers. I mean, if we look at Dunk & Egg then they their relationship is also much different - yes, Egg is a royal prince, but he is also a child and a squire. But when Aegon V became king he was the one in charge, and their friendship survived that, too, presumably. Now, Jon was the friend of his buddies, but he was also the guy they looked up, the guy who trained them fight, the guy with a king for a brother. They were never equals, even if they drank in the past. Jon actually punishes himself and his friends with this whole thing - because he doesn't really want to be Lord Commander, nor does he think he deserves since Sam manipulated the election. That's also part of the reason why he sends Aemon and Samwell away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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