George answers my question. Kind of.

[Bael's Bastard]

21 hours ago, SFDanny said:

So while waiting in line, I thought what should I ask this time? After considering a question about the timing of different views of the comet (Maester Luwin's and Daenerys's which I have long thought take place at the same time) I decided to ask my original question on Ser Barristan again. After all, George has had a few years to think on it. Well he did answer it. Kinda. Sorta. When I asked if Selmy knew of the deaths of the Kingsguard Trio when he decided to go over to Robert, his response was "Yes, .... quite probably. He was hurt and recovering so there is enough time for him to know." Not quite the clear answer I was looking for, but a great improvement over the "I have to think on that" response. Given the glacial pace in which I have been asking this question, I'm quite sure that I will get my definitive, clear answer at Worldcon 2022.

Nice! Thanks for asking.

I always took the quote about Robert having his maester tend to Barristan to indicate that Robert offered him a pardon at that time, even if Barristan did not immediately accept. And while I don't discount the possibility that Barristan didn't immediately make a decision, or refused a number of times before accepting, it seems a bit odd to me that Robert would have allowed such a situation to go on for weeks or months. As Robert told his best friend Ned: "Just don't keep me waiting too long. I am not the most patient of men."

[Lord Varys]

5 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I always took the quote about Robert having his maester tend to Barristan to indicate that Robert offered him a pardon at that time, even if Barristan did not immediately accept. And while I don't discount the possibility that Barristan didn't immediately make a decision, or refused a number of times before accepting, it seems a bit odd to me that Robert would have allowed such a situation to go on for weeks or months. As Robert told his best friend Ned: "Just don't keep me waiting too long. I am not the most patient of men."

It points in that direction, but Aegon II also allowed the maester to take care of Lady Baela - and that doesn't mean he was determined to pardon her or spare her life.

The talk between Ned, Robert, and Roose implies that Selmy himself was far too injured to be part of that whole thing.

One imagines that the final decision on Selmy was made when the man was well enough to actually talk to Robert and present himself before the Iron Throne. And that would have been weeks or perhaps even months later, depending how serious his injuries were and when exactly Robert summoned Selmy from the Riverlands to the capital. 

[Bael's Bastard]

22 hours ago, Ran said:

Good job, and glad you're having a good, if tiring time!

This does give us a sense that there was a goodly span of time between the Trident and Barristan accepting a place in Robert's Kingsguard, as well as (presumably) his pardoning of Varys and Jaime. 

But how would that work? Wouldn't Robert have offered a pardon to Selmy around the same time he sent his maester to work on him? Wouldn't Selmy have refused, assuming it was after the Trident but before word of the sack? How many weeks or months would Robert have let his maester keep working on Selmy, and would he have kept offering a pardon, if Selmy refused a pardon, or kept refusing a pardon?

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

2 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

But how would that work? Wouldn't Robert have offered a pardon to Selmy around the same time he sent his maester to work on him? Wouldn't Selmy have refused, assuming it was after the Trident but before word of the sack? How many weeks or months would Robert have let his maester keep working on Selmy, and would he have kept offering a pardon, if Selmy refused a pardon, or kept refusing a pardon?

Barristan could have been passed out, or in too much pain to be expected to make a firm decision, for any length of time.

[Bael's Bastard]

40 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

Excellent, but I would really like to know whether the tourney at Harrenhal was rigged in Rheagar favor. That sentence about "If I had been a better knight..." is intriguing...

There's no way the tournament was rigged in Rhaegar's favor. Even if Rhaegar could count on Arthur and Barristan to take a dive for him, which I don't see any evidence for, he still had to go through men like Yohn Royce and Brandon Stark.

[Michael Snyder]

This is an interesting question. Does a King's Guard transfer his loyalty automatically to the former heir and new king? Or does each King have his own King's Guard and the oath of a King's Guard ends at the death of the King? Let us say that a King's Guard served the King in his life. At the King's death, the new King appointed his won Guards, allowing him to retire those that had reached a level of physical incapacity that the old King had retained or drop any whom he didn't have confidence in. Remember that an heir doesn't always have a loving relationship with his father. Think Henry II and his sons, Richard, Geoffrey and John. Thus Sir Selmy Barriston's oath ends at the death of Aerys II.

So further question, if the King's Guard serves the King, why was Sir Selmy Barriston at the Trident and Sir Arthur Dayne and his companions at the Tower of Joy? Certainly the King may have sent Sir Selmy to assist Prince Rhaegar, who had little command experience. But he also didn't know about Rhaegar's little group at the Tower of Joy. Does anyone think King Aerys II, whom negotiated the marriage of Prince Rhaegar and Elia Martell as a marriage alliance to bind Dorne to himself, would have approved Elia's divorce, Rhaegar's marriage to Lyanna Stark and an assignment of King's Guards to the Tower of Joy? It seems Sir Arthur and his companions were more loyal to the Prince than the King to whom they gave their oaths. If they had been where they were supposed to be, would they have stopped Jaimie? Or joined him?

If a King's Guard's oath died with the King, then there is no issue with Sir Selmi Barriston accepting Robert's offer to lead the Guard. Robert had sent his own medical staff to treat Sir Selmi and obviously respected him. Another issue would be whether the fall of the Targaryans ended Sir Selmi's relationship with them. Sir Selmi was an honorable knight. He had, however, stood by while the "Mad" King had murdered people, even Lord Stark and his eldest son. In a feudal society, a king had responsibilities to those that gave him their loyalty. Aerys II had broken those oaths from his side by his actions. A feudal lord owed no loyalty to a king who demanded it but gave none back or ruled outside the limits of an oath.

But there is more here. Did Sir Selmi know about Prince Rhaegar and Lyanna Stark and what did he know? He told Danerys that he would accompany the Prince into the strrets of King's Landing and often get drunk together. Was that a close enough relationship that Rhaegar confided in him? It was at least nine months between Lyanna's "abduction" and her birth of Jon. (is this a spoiler? I get confused. If so, please edit it out or something?). Are we to believe that Sir Selmi DID NOT know about Rhaegar and Lyanna and that she was preganant? Sir Selmi's oath was to the King, not the Prince. The Prince had defied his father, as he needed his approval to divorce Elia and marry Lyanna. He had committed treason against his father. If Sir Selmi knew and didn't tell Aerys II, he was complicit in that treason.

Finally, here's a thought. Sir Selmi goes to the Trident aware that Lyanna is pregnant. He is severely wounded and doesn't recover for some time. He then hears that Edard Stark had returned from the Tower of Joy with a "bastard" son. What did Sir Selmi make of that? He had to wonder about that child. And what did Ned tell Robert? That she died in childbirth with the baby? Or that Rhaegar had killed her (which was actually true in a way) and left out the pregnancy and the child? If he did, did Sir Selmi wonder about the child that Lyanna had been carrying?

[rotting sea cow]

1 minute ago, Bael's Bastard said:

There's no way the tournament was rigged in Rhaegar's favor. Even if Rhaegar could count on Arthur and Barristan to take a dive for him, which I don't see any evidence for, he still had to go through men like Yohn Royce and Brandon Stark.

It doesn't mean that every tilt was rigged, but maybe important ones, look to the full sentece

"If I had been a better knight … if I had unhorsed the prince in that last tilt, as I unhorsed so many others, it would have been for me to choose the queen of love and beauty…"

And after

If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark? He would never know. But of all his failures, none haunted Barristan Selmy so much as that.

ADWD - The Kingbreaker

One could interpret that sentence that Barristan should have been better at tilting, however Barristan chapters are full at questioning honor, duty and chivalry, not military prowess. So, being unhorsed by someone better at tilting is not a dishonor for a knight, however participating in a rigged tilt?

There is quite ample evidence that the Harrenhal turney was more than that and actually a political gathering to support Rhaegar and get rid of Aerys. Rhaegar messed up of course.

[Bael's Bastard]

16 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

It doesn't mean that every tilt was rigged, but maybe important ones, look to the full sentece

"If I had been a better knight … if I had unhorsed the prince in that last tilt, as I unhorsed so many others, it would have been for me to choose the queen of love and beauty…"

And after

If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark? He would never know. But of all his failures, none haunted Barristan Selmy so much as that.

ADWD - The Kingbreaker

One could interpret that sentence that Barristan should have been better at tilting, however Barristan chapters are full at questioning honor, duty and chivalry, not military prowess. So, being unhorsed by someone better at tilting is not a dishonor for a knight, however participating in a rigged tilt?

There is quite ample evidence that the Harrenhal turney was more than that and actually a political gathering to support Rhaegar and get rid of Aerys. Rhaegar messed up of course.

I don't see an indication in those sentences or elsewhere that Ser Barristan Selmy intentionally lost to Prince Rhaegar, that he considers Rhaegar to have been inherently better or worse at tilting than him, or that he considers his loss to Rhaegar to have been a matter of dishonor.

Despite only rarely entering the lists, Rhaegar appears to have been quite skilled at tilting, making it to the championship tilt in all three of the tournaments he is known to have participated in. And he faced Barristan in all three:

- defeating Barristan before losing to Ser Arthur Dayne in the final tilt at the Lannisport Tourney (276 AC)
- losing to Barristan in the final tilt at the Storm's End Tourney (between 276 AC and 281 AC)
- defeating Barristan in the final tilt at the Harrenhal Tourney (281 AC)

Thus, as far as we known, Rhaegar and Barristan were 1-1 against each other going into their championship tilt at the Harrenhal Tourney, and Barristan would have gone into that match knowing he was facing a someone he had both defeated and been defeated by.

Which supports the simplest explanation, that Barristan truly had no idea who would win, that he was truly bested on that day, and that as a result, in hindsight, he was unable to crown Ashara and prevent Rhaegar from crowning Lyanna.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

20 hours ago, Michael Snyder said:

This is an interesting question. Does a King's Guard transfer his loyalty automatically to the former heir and new king? Or does each King have his own King's Guard and the oath of a King's Guard ends at the death of the King? Let us say that a King's Guard served the King in his life. At the King's death, the new King appointed his won Guards, allowing him to retire those that had reached a level of physical incapacity that the old King had retained or drop any whom he didn't have confidence in. Remember that an heir doesn't always have a loving relationship with his father. Think Henry II and his sons, Richard, Geoffrey and John. Thus Sir Selmy Barriston's oath ends at the death of Aerys II.

So further question, if the King's Guard serves the King, why was Sir Selmy Barriston at the Trident and Sir Arthur Dayne and his companions at the Tower of Joy? Certainly the King may have sent Sir Selmy to assist Prince Rhaegar, who had little command experience. But he also didn't know about Rhaegar's little group at the Tower of Joy. Does anyone think King Aerys II, whom negotiated the marriage of Prince Rhaegar and Elia Martell as a marriage alliance to bind Dorne to himself, would have approved Elia's divorce, Rhaegar's marriage to Lyanna Stark and an assignment of King's Guards to the Tower of Joy? It seems Sir Arthur and his companions were more loyal to the Prince than the King to whom they gave their oaths. If they had been where they were supposed to be, would they have stopped Jaimie? Or joined him?

If a King's Guard's oath died with the King, then there is no issue with Sir Selmi Barriston accepting Robert's offer to lead the Guard. Robert had sent his own medical staff to treat Sir Selmi and obviously respected him. Another issue would be whether the fall of the Targaryans ended Sir Selmi's relationship with them. Sir Selmi was an honorable knight. He had, however, stood by while the "Mad" King had murdered people, even Lord Stark and his eldest son. In a feudal society, a king had responsibilities to those that gave him their loyalty. Aerys II had broken those oaths from his side by his actions. A feudal lord owed no loyalty to a king who demanded it but gave none back or ruled outside the limits of an oath.

But there is more here. Did Sir Selmi know about Prince Rhaegar and Lyanna Stark and what did he know? He told Danerys that he would accompany the Prince into the strrets of King's Landing and often get drunk together. Was that a close enough relationship that Rhaegar confided in him? It was at least nine months between Lyanna's "abduction" and her birth of Jon. (is this a spoiler? I get confused. If so, please edit it out or something?). Are we to believe that Sir Selmi DID NOT know about Rhaegar and Lyanna and that she was preganant? Sir Selmi's oath was to the King, not the Prince. The Prince had defied his father, as he needed his approval to divorce Elia and marry Lyanna. He had committed treason against his father. If Sir Selmi knew and didn't tell Aerys II, he was complicit in that treason.

Finally, here's a thought. Sir Selmi goes to the Trident aware that Lyanna is pregnant. He is severely wounded and doesn't recover for some time. He then hears that Edard Stark had returned from the Tower of Joy with a "bastard" son. What did Sir Selmi make of that? He had to wonder about that child. And what did Ned tell Robert? That she died in childbirth with the baby? Or that Rhaegar had killed her (which was actually true in a way) and left out the pregnancy and the child? If he did, did Sir Selmi wonder about the child that Lyanna had been carrying?

Kingsguards serve for life. When their king dies they serve the new king.

[SFDanny]

13 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I always took the quote about Robert having his maester tend to Barristan to indicate that Robert offered him a pardon at that time, even if Barristan did not immediately accept. And while I don't discount the possibility that Barristan didn't immediately make a decision, or refused a number of times before accepting, it seems a bit odd to me that Robert would have allowed such a situation to go on for weeks or months. As Robert told his best friend Ned: "Just don't keep me waiting too long. I am not the most patient of men."

Let's look at the quote.

Quote

"On the Trident, Ser Barristan here cut down a dozen good men, Robert's friends and mine. When they brought him to us, grievously wounded and near death, Roose Bolton urged us to cut his throat, but your brother said, 'I will not kill a man for loyalty, nor for fighting well,' and sent his own maester to tend Ser Barristan's wounds." (AGoT 372)

It seems to me, there are two things here that point to a different interpretation than yours. First, Selmy is "grievously wounded and near death" which is hardly the time to offer him a pardon, much less offer him the Lord Commander's office in a future Robert's Kingsguard. The war is not yet over. Robert does not hold King's Landing and the Iron Throne, and Ser Barristan is near death - meaning he is likely to die at this point in the story. Second, the debate among the rebel commanders isn't about making him a new Lord Commander, is is about whether or not to kill Selmy or give him medical aid that could possibly save his life. After Robert is crowned the new king is when pardons would be handed out and new positions in Robert's court handed out. Which is exactly what we see with Jaime, Pycelle, and Varys. Yet we know Ser Barristan wasn't included in those pardons and wasn't at the coronation when both the pardons are done and when the bodies of Elia and her children were displayed before the newly crown king.

Quote

"Prince Rhaegar had two children," Ser Barristan told him. "Rhaenys was a little girl, Aegon a babe in arms. When Tywin Lannister took King's Landing, his men killed both of them. He served the bloody bodies up in crimson cloaks, a gift for the new king." And what did Robert say when he saw them? Did he smile? Barristan Selmy had been badly wounded on the Trident, so he had been spared the sight of Lord Tywin's gift, but oft he wondered. If I had seen him smile over the red ruins of Rhaegar's children, no army on this earth could have stopped me from killing him. (ADwD 876) bold emphasis added

So we know why Selmy was not at the coronation. He was still recovering from his wounds inflicted at the Trident. This is not surprising because in Martin's world even heroes need time to recover from grievous wounds that put them near death. Robert had a war to win, and more Targaryens to kill, or try to kill. He sent his maester to try to heal Selmy, but he leaves the decisions of who will be in his Kingsguard to when he actually has his throne. This fits with Martin's "quite probably" answer to my question. Is it conclusive? Hardly, but I think the evidence points in this direction.

If there are questions about whether or not it is at Robert's coronation that Rhaegar's children are laid before the "new king" I can provide other quotes to back that up. And we know it is at the coronation that the pardons occur; both from Jaime's account and from Stannis's remarks about how he was still under siege when the decision was made to pardon Jaime, Pycelle, and Varys.

@Bael's Bastard there are lots of things we don't know about this time period. I don't claim to have any secret knowledge about any of this, but on this point, I think the evidence points to another interpretation than yours. Just my two cents.

[SFDanny]

On 8/19/2018 at 3:53 PM, Lord Varys said:

I think there are many unknowns to your question @SFDanny. We don't know how injured/clear of mind Selmy was after the Trident or how long it took for him to recover.

We do know from Ned's quote that he was "grievously wounded" and "near death." Whether or not he is awake and aware of what is happening to him is unclear. I highly doubt Ser Barristan is having long discussions, unlike his captors, about much of anything. Anyway, it makes no sense for Robert to offer Selmy anything until he knows Ser Barristan will survive, and Robert is crowned king. In the meantime, a captive Ser Barristan is a valuable symbol of rebel power.

As to how long it took for Ser Barristan to recover, I would say many months. Not only does Martin's response seem to indicate this, but it fits with what we know from the text. If Selmy knew of the deaths of Hightower, Dayne, and Whent before he made his decision, then it is likely he does so after Ned returns to King's Landing with the news of Lyanna's death and the fight at the tower of joy. This is only my take on this, of course, but it is hard to imagine Robert committing to a marriage pact with the Lannisters without knowing if Lyanna was alive or dead. I also think it unlikely he sends the news to Robert earlier by raven. This is news he would deliver face to face. All of which points to Ser Barristan making his decision, if I'm right, after Ned's long journey to Storm's End, the Tower of Joy, Starfall, and back to King's Landing. A journey of many months.

A note here to remember that in the White Book, Ser Barristan tells us he was part of the honor guard which escorts Cersei from the Westerlands to King's Landing for her wedding to Robert. I take this as verification that Selmy has, at this point, accepted Robert's offer before he takes up this duty. One hardly is given such an honor if that person is still a captive recovery under lock and key.

On 8/19/2018 at 3:53 PM, Lord Varys said:

We also don't know whether the pardons Robert likely issued rather shortly after he had taken the throne included confirmation of the pardoned in their old titles/offices.

It is one thing to recognize that a leal man fought for his king and prince and find no fault in that and quite another to keep such a man in your Kingsguard and council.

In that sense I think that Varys and Pycelle also only knew that they were still welcome in Robert's council when Robert convened his Small Council for the first session after he had taken the throne (which may have been immediately after his coronation but not directly after his arrival in KL).

Keeping Jaime and Barristan in the KG would be a similar thing - Jaime would have been pardoned with the others but whether he made the decision to keep Jaime in the KG at the same time, is unclear. But since Selmy wasn't in KL at the time the royal pardon and offer to serve as Lord Commander would have only reached him some time later, assuming Robert thought of that already when he became king.

Here I have to disagree. I think Robert doesn't pardon Jaime, Pycelle, and Varys if he doesn't know he is already going to keep them on in his court. Jaime comes with the package of accepting the Lannisters as allies after the rebel victory. Tywin has done his best to show he supports Robert's claim to the crown, but if Robert wanted to alienate the Lannisters there could be no quicker way than sending Jaime to the Wall or throwing him into a black cell. Robert wants to consolidate power, not continue the war.

Pycelle and Varys are both symbols of "continuity" through Robert's own Targaryen claim to the Iron Throne. As Ned tells us, Robert had the better claim, and when you are trying to win lords who have served the Targaryens for generations, it helps to show not everything after the rebel victory will be new. Pycelle represents the Citadel, and therefore, likely the Hightower's interests, so bringing him back on the small council will help in smoothing that transition. He has already proven his loyalty to the Lannisters.

Varys's spies are just too valuable to turn down. All of which, means to me, they don't get pardoned if they aren't going to be welcomed back into power.

On 8/19/2018 at 3:53 PM, Lord Varys said:

Filling up the empty spots in his KG might have only concerned him some time later.

I agree.

On 8/19/2018 at 3:53 PM, Lord Varys said:

An interesting aspect there is whether Selmy made his decision/got the royal offer before or after Queen Rhaella had died, and Viserys III had fled to Braavos.

Which by my calculation would put that event sometime in midyear 284. Rhaella dies in childbirth, and Dany's birth is likely around that time. My guess is Ned arrives back in King's Landing with his news somewhere in the 2nd quarter of 284 AC and the negotiations for the Cersei marriage pact and the elevation of Ser Barristan to Lord Commander happen some time shortly there after. It could stretch to after the news of the taking of Dragonstone, Rhaella's death, and the escape of Ser Willem Darry with Viserys and the infant Daenerys. My thoughts anyway.

Btw, this points to Stannis being brought to King's Landing and given the command of building a new fleet to attack King's Landing.

[Jaak]

On 8/19/2018 at 6:12 PM, Ran said:

This does give us a sense that there was a goodly span of time between the Trident and Barristan accepting a place in Robert's Kingsguard, as well as (presumably) his pardoning of Varys and Jaime. 

As mentioned in some of the replies, there was a good span of time between Robert pardoning of Varys and Jaime (at his coronation, with Barristan wounded and not present, Eddard present and pissed off, Stannis still under siege, Mace still fighting, Gerold and Lyanna still alive) and Barristan accepting place at Robert´s kingsguard (after Gerold was reported dead, even if Eddard sent a brief news by raven while making the trip to Starfall with the sword).

On 8/20/2018 at 1:53 AM, Lord Varys said:

@SFDannyWe also don't know whether the pardons Robert likely issued rather shortly after he had taken the throne included confirmation of the pardoned in their old titles/offices.

It is one thing to recognize that a leal man fought for his king and prince and find no fault in that and quite another to keep such a man in your Kingsguard and council.

In that sense I think that Varys and Pycelle also only knew that they were still welcome in Robert's council when Robert convened his Small Council for the first session after he had taken the throne (which may have been immediately after his coronation but not directly after his arrival in KL).

There are two members of Aerys´ Small Council unaccounted for. Master of Laws Staunton, and Master of Ships Velaryon.

Velaryon may have sailed for Dragonstone with most of ships and Rhaella. Does not apply to Staunton.

Did Robert keep Staunton in office till Renly grew up? Was he killed in action of Sack? Or pardoned but fired?

On 8/20/2018 at 1:53 AM, Lord Varys said:

Keeping Jaime and Barristan in the KG would be a similar thing - Jaime would have been pardoned with the others but whether he made the decision to keep Jaime in the KG at the same time, is unclear.

Similar with Pycelle, actually. Grand Maester is formally an appointee of Citadel, not King, and formally not King´s to fire, as Tyrion found when attempting to do so. And Kingsguard is normally appointed for life, meaning that neither the appointing nor succeeding king can formally fire a Kingsguard.

The decision to pardon Jaime but not keep him in Kingsguard is one that Tywin would have grabbed...

On 8/20/2018 at 3:48 AM, Lord Varys said:

One even wonders when exactly Robert decided to make Selmy the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. Jaime wasn't an option, of course, but technically he could have chosen one of his new men rather than given that honor to former Targaryen men. 

For some time, Gerold Hightower was an option.

Of Robert´s new men - Moore, Blount, Trant, Greenfield - none is a legend comparable to Selmy.

On 8/20/2018 at 9:46 AM, SFDanny said:

We don't know if Robert would have allowed him to go into exile, but I agree it is unlikely given Robert's hatred of the Targaryens.

For a spared prisoner, the logical alternatives to release him and allow him to fight again would be prisoner exchange or ransom. But Rhaella on Dragonstone was not really holding Roberting prisoners for exchange.

On 8/20/2018 at 1:37 PM, Lord Varys said:

But again - the pardon might not have been the same time it was decided that these people all were allowed to keep their offices. I mean, in Jaime's case one assumes Robert would have been already on board with the Cersei idea, or else chances are pretty good that he may have spared Jaime's life but without allowing him to continue to serve him as KG. That makes more sense if it was part of the deal with Tywin about Cersei's hand.

No, it actually makes more sense if there was no Cersei idea at that time, because Lyanna was alive, and Jaime as Kingsguard was the only Lannister hostage Robert could have.

On 8/20/2018 at 2:03 PM, Lord Varys said:

Oh, yeah, that's an issue there. If one takes that into account then it must have been more Robert's idea to keep Jaime as KG than Tywin's. Very odd why/how that happened. Perhaps nobody considered the possibility of 'honorable discharge' at the time, the thing being anathema to the way the KG was set up. They might have thought there was only execution, the Wall, or keeping Jaime. And the former two wouldn't have sat well with Tywin.

We are told it was Jon´s idea.

Robert had a good pretext for a honourable discharge. He was calling himself Baratheon and declaring Targaryen dynasty over.

He could have declared Kingsguard over with Targaryen dynasty. Or that Baratheon dynasty had a new Kingsguard.

But he had 4 options to deal with Jaime.

Execution or Wall would have pissed off Tywin and spent the hostage.

Releasing Jaime as a civilian would have pleased Tywin - but also let go the hostage.

So declaring the Kingsguard vows as carrying over was a convenient excuse to keep hold of Jaime... and bound Robert´s hands in dealing with Barristan and the three on the loose. If he refused discharge to civil life to Jaime then he could not offer it to the rest - it was service of Usurper, fighting/running to death, or Wall.

[Lord Varys]

16 hours ago, SFDanny said:

We do know from Ned's quote that he was "grievously wounded" and "near death." Whether or not he is awake and aware of what is happening to him is unclear. I highly doubt Ser Barristan is having long discussions, unlike his captors, about much of anything. Anyway, it makes no sense for Robert to offer Selmy anything until he knows Ser Barristan will survive, and Robert is crowned king. In the meantime, a captive Ser Barristan is a valuable symbol of rebel power.

Symbolically Robert's actions point towards pardon - the best way to get rid of a man you want dead is to actually let him die. However, letting Selmy live isn't the same as keeping him in your KG.

Quote

As to how long it took for Ser Barristan to recover, I would say many months. Not only does Martin's response seem to indicate this, but it fits with what we know from the text. If Selmy knew of the deaths of Hightower, Dayne, and Whent before he made his decision, then it is likely he does so after Ned returns to King's Landing with the news of Lyanna's death and the fight at the tower of joy. This is only my take on this, of course, but it is hard to imagine Robert committing to a marriage pact with the Lannisters without knowing if Lyanna was alive or dead. I also think it unlikely he sends the news to Robert earlier by raven. This is news he would deliver face to face. All of which points to Ser Barristan making his decision, if I'm right, after Ned's long journey to Storm's End, the Tower of Joy, Starfall, and back to King's Landing. A journey of many months.

Robert could have been informed about Lyanna and the tower by raven - from Starfall or some other castle between the tower and Starfall. This was very important news, and Ned may have felt obliged to inform his king. And Selmy, in turn, could have gotten news at whatever castle in the Riverlands he was recovering.

Basic facts by raven, personal details face to face - that's how I imagine the Lyanna thing there.

Quote

A note here to remember that in the White Book, Ser Barristan tells us he was part of the honor guard which escorts Cersei from the Westerlands to King's Landing for her wedding to Robert. I take this as verification that Selmy has, at this point, accepted Robert's offer before he takes up this duty. One hardly is given such an honor if that person is still a captive recovery under lock and key.

That would most definitely be the case. And we can be safely say that this wedding would have taken place only after the war was truly over, after Dragonstone was taken and perhaps even after Jon Arryn had paid Doran a visit.

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Here I have to disagree. I think Robert doesn't pardon Jaime, Pycelle, and Varys if he doesn't know he is already going to keep them on in his court. Jaime comes with the package of accepting the Lannisters as allies after the rebel victory. Tywin has done his best to show he supports Robert's claim to the crown, but if Robert wanted to alienate the Lannisters there could be no quicker way than sending Jaime to the Wall or throwing him into a black cell. Robert wants to consolidate power, not continue the war.

With Jaime, this makes more sense - as I said above, it is quite likely nobody ever thought about throwing Jaime just out of the KG. The options would have been keeping him, sending him to the Wall, or executing him.

But with Varys and Pycelle Robert could have certainly have thought about replacing him while allowing them honorary retirement or exile (in Varys' case).

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Pycelle and Varys are both symbols of "continuity" through Robert's own Targaryen claim to the Iron Throne. As Ned tells us, Robert had the better claim, and when you are trying to win lords who have served the Targaryens for generations, it helps to show not everything after the rebel victory will be new. Pycelle represents the Citadel, and therefore, likely the Hightower's interests, so bringing him back on the small council will help in smoothing that transition. He has already proven his loyalty to the Lannisters.

Punishing Pycelle would have never been an idea anybody had, but Varys was no good symbol of continuity. The Masters of Whisperers are never well-liked, and Varys was an especially unpopular piece of shit during Aerys' reign. He would have only stayed on the council because Robert came to the conclusion that the man was both useful and trustworthy.

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Varys's spies are just too valuable to turn down. All of which, means to me, they don't get pardoned if they aren't going to be welcomed back into power.

We have cases where people are pardoned but not allowed to keep their seats - take Pycelle after Tyrion lets him out of the black cell as an example.

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I agree.

Thinking about it we don't even know when King Robert made the decision that he wanted to continue the Kingsguard thing. He could have decided to abolish this order that was created by the Targaryens - or enlarge it, change its vows, etc.

@Ran

Do you guys have ever discussed the topic of Robert's coronation with George? The way I see the only way for a proper royal coronation - with the High Septon anointing Robert in the Great Sept, cheering throngs, great feasts and tourneys, etc - would have been after the war was well and truly over - perhaps even after Stannis had taken Dragonstone.

Doing that merely days after the Sack would have been a very poor affair, with Tywin's thugs and the other rebel troops keeping the Kingslanders in line and the blood of all the victims not yet properly cleaned up.

Robert could have had a 'battle coronation' like Aegon, but the real thing should have happened after the war.

But then - we never get Joff's or Tommen's or Stannis', Renly's or any king's coronation in the main books - that ceremony only gains real importance in the histories. So it might be this wasn't really an issue when George laid out the details of Robert's rise to power.

A very good occasion for Robert's proper coronation would be his wedding to Cersei.

[Jaak]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Thinking about it we don't even know when King Robert made the decision that he wanted to continue the Kingsguard thing. He could have decided to abolish this order that was created by the Targaryens - or enlarge it, change its vows, etc@Ran

 

I believe it was part of Jon´s advice, against Eddard.

Precedents existed. Of Maegor´s Kingsguard, Owen Bush was killed and not replaced in the short time before Maegor died, and two defected to Jaehaerys - but the remaining 4, who were suspected of assassinating him, seem to have been taken over by Jaehaerys as well. Queensguard fell to a man, and of Aegon II-s Kingsguard, Gyles Belgrave refused to outlive him on Hour of Wolf - but Marston Waters expressly kept (and abused) his post under Aegon III.

But neither Jaehaerys nor Aegon III took a new dynastic name. Robert did. He thus had a pretext to depart from the precedent of keeping the old Kingsguard... but was advised not to take it up.

[Lord Varys]

6 hours ago, Jaak said:

I believe it was part of Jon´s advice, against Eddard.

Precedents existed. Of Maegor´s Kingsguard, Owen Bush was killed and not replaced in the short time before Maegor died, and two defected to Jaehaerys - but the remaining 4, who were suspected of assassinating him, seem to have been taken over by Jaehaerys as well. Queensguard fell to a man, and of Aegon II-s Kingsguard, Gyles Belgrave refused to outlive him on Hour of Wolf - but Marston Waters expressly kept (and abused) his post under Aegon III.

Aegon III was a minor when he took the throne. His regents would have decided who kept or got a white cloak. One wonders whether a man like Marston Waters would have kept his cloak (and his life) after Aegon III was ruling in his own right. I mean, would you allow a man to guard your own person and the lives of your wife and future children who just stood there and watched and continued to serve the man who had your own mother killed and you imprisoned? I don't think so.

6 hours ago, Jaak said:

But neither Jaehaerys nor Aegon III took a new dynastic name. Robert did. He thus had a pretext to depart from the precedent of keeping the old Kingsguard... but was advised not to take it up.

A new dynastic name isn't necessary a sign for dramatic change, either. But Robert really took the throne by force and he essentially had an empty KG but for Selmy and Jaime. He could have abolished the order rather easily. He wasn't stuck with tradition the way a king who just inherited the throne would be.

[Jaak]

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

A new dynastic name isn't necessary a sign for dramatic change, either. But Robert really took the throne by force and he essentially had an empty KG but for Selmy and Jaime. He could have abolished the order rather easily. He wasn't stuck with tradition the way a king who just inherited the throne would be.

When he seized throne, he did not have empty Kingsguard. He had just two vacancies created at Trident - Lewyn and Jonothor. And then Jaime and the 4 who were yet to make up their minds - were yet to get his offers.

[Varysblackfyre321]

First, praise to the OP, really good question. The time to where Barristan decides to join would be interesting and would show his level of commitment to the new regime. 

I would ask Martin in respect to Baristan; what specificly did kid-Viserys do to remind him of Aerys? 

Truth, be told the men don't appear that similar in their worst traits. adult-Viserys after years on the run, and having suffered most of his family being killed, his mother's death, he doesn't appear to be insane-a tad cruel to be true but not insane. Not overly paranoid(which given his position, it's near impossible to be).  Even in his last moment, I would not say he's lost it as much as he's making a really dumb decision when he's drunk.