Damon_Tor Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 9 hours ago, honorable men said: Will Arya end up marrying Jon? No. Love is poison. It's one of GRRM's most enduring themes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a black swan Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 18 hours ago, Lady Winter Rose said: Jon think of Arya as his sister. I could see Jon marrying his cousin, whoever that may be (Allyria Dayne?), but not girl he saw only as sister. Except that time when Jon wonders if Arya was ever his sister? “If you kill a man, and never mean t’, he’s just as dead,” Ygritte said stubbornly. Jon had never met anyone so stubborn except maybe for his little sister Arya. Is she still my sister? he wondered. Was she ever? - (Jon, A Storm of Swords) A cousin you say? It's not like that's exactly what Arya is for true. He seems more inclined to accept technicalities and actual facts than most people here. Recall his conversation with Ygritte and how he saw no problem with her bedding a boy she saw as her brother. Or the fact that Jon compares Arya to his heart, he has only ever that one other time when thinking of Ygritte. Some people want to think the Arya that returns from Braavos will be exactly like the 9 year old that left Winterfell. How short-sighted. She will be a maiden flowered who has changed just as Jon will have after his death experience. What will it be like when they meet again? Almost like "strangers" reuniting. Like GRRM's intended outline, it wasn't until after they met again that this thing between them developed. "The heart is all that matters. Do not despair, Lord Snow. Despair is a weapon of the enemy, whose name may not be spoken. Your sister is not lost to you." "I have no sister." The words were knives. What do you know of my heart, priestess? What do you know of my sister? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
867-5309 Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 They will end up together in some way shape or form. Martin had an outline for them to fall in love. There is a letter circulating on the internet from Martin to his publisher. There, Jon gets jealous because Arya is involved in a love triangle. I wish the triangle to involve Gendry, Jon, and Arya. 13 hours ago, Rosetta Stone said: They will be together in the future. I don't think a formal marriage is in the cards but they will live together. I agree with Barbrey Dustin, they will do this during their second lives as wolves. The wolves will come again and I can only wish in the form of direwolves instead of human. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 Someone please tell Martin that he is to stick to that outline. You know, the one where he said he was making shit up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemon The Black Dragon Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 21 hours ago, Barbrey Dustin said: He is in love with her but I doubt they will get together as humans. They will both die and become direwolves. They can then mate to their heart's content. They will be together in the future and live on as mates but perhaps not in their human form but during their second lives. Jon loves Arya, he's not in love with her. There's a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 4 hours ago, Damon_Tor said: No. Love is poison. It's one of GRRM's most enduring themes. And no love is worse. Look at Robert and Cersei, a couple who didn’t love each other and it led to the ruin of three houses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 Furthermore, Tywin Lannister met his downfall because he only cared about his children as pawns. And one of them killed him. Without love, all there is between couples and family is apathy. And abuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davjos Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 4 hours ago, a black swan said: Except that time when Jon wonders if Arya was ever his sister? “If you kill a man, and never mean t’, he’s just as dead,” Ygritte said stubbornly. Jon had never met anyone so stubborn except maybe for his little sister Arya. Is she still my sister? he wondered. Was she ever? - (Jon, A Storm of Swords) Maybe don't pull quotes out of nowhere. I have quoted almost ALL Jon's mentions of Arya and there are two clear views of Arya: - his sister -not attractive. By the way: this is the full quote. Are you saying he is also in love with Bran? Sansa? Is she still my sister? he wondered. Was she ever? He had never truly been a Stark, only Lord Eddard's motherless bastard, with no more place at Winterfell than Theon Greyjoy. And even that he'd lost. When a man of the Night's Watch said his words, he put aside his old family and joined a new one, but Jon Snow had lost those brothers too. He clearly doesn't think of her as a sister at that moment because he took his vows. He does think of her as a sister throughout aDWD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Mormont Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 No. Arya will end up with Gendry. John has a better chance at being with Sansa than Arya. Arya will always be his little sister in his heart and mind. Jon has enough guilt and second guessing in his life, he would never be able to "be" with her romantically. Sansa, on the other hand, is drawn to the brave Knights in her stories and Jon fits that mold. Jon and Sansa do not seem particularly close but they are close in age. She is beautiful and a marriage between them would secure the North. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lollygag Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 It’s possible though I strongly disagree with the claimed foreshadowing for this as it assumes its own conclusion in the interpretation among having other problems. Claiming that Jon died for Arya is a pretty drastic oversimplification of Jon’s motives which were quite complex. If it does come to pass, it’ll indicate that Jon is going super creep as the books have consistently cast a *very* jaundiced eye towards these sorts of age differences when the girl is Westeros’ version of the barely legal type and the man is not barely legal himself. Illyrio and Viserys both side-eyed Drago for wanting the just-flowered Dany and if those two of all people are side-eyeing you….Viserys found it incomprehensible that a man would want a girl who was that undeveloped regardless of being flowered. Gendry left Arya because his feelings became inappropriate to Arya’s age. Though Sansa had flowered, Tyrion refused to consummate the marriage, repeatedly called her a child, and called himself out on his attraction to Sansa as being messed up and refused to act on it at his own expense. Marg and Tommen are creepy when you think about it, but a lot of people don’t because there’s a double standard when the boy is the child. Rhaegar ditched his wife and kids for barely legal Lyanna. She became pregnant and died in childbirth with the heavy assumption that Lyanna’s underdeveloped and lean frame wasn’t ready for childbirth yet. There’s an instance in one of the TWOW chapters which continues this pattern. Lyn Corbray liking the barely legal boy look (no one seems to think he’s sleeping with actual children) isn’t meant to make him look good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lord of the Crossing Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 On 8/19/2018 at 2:01 PM, Barbrey Dustin said: It was his feelings for Arya that caused Jon to betray the watch. That feeling will live on in his direwolf form. All they need do is wait for her to die as a human and she can take on the direwolf form. They can live and mate together as wolves. Maybe Jojen was hiding the complete truth from Bran when he said the wolves will come again. I hope he meant actual wolves, as in the Starks turning to direwolves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 5 minutes ago, The Lord of the Crossing said: I hope he meant actual wolves, as in the Starks turning to direwolves. Tell that to Robb, Grey Wind (here comes the King in the North!) and Lady. If Sansa dies, there’s no coming back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lord of the Crossing Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 Just now, Angel Eyes said: Tell that to Robb, Grey Wind (here comes the King in the North!) and Lady. If Sansa dies, there’s no coming back. Sansa is the odd person out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBoss1 Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 I feel that the reason many are dismissing this possibility is because they find it repulsive and thats okay, i too find it disgusting but it doesnt mean it will not happen. In the early drafts that was the original storyline and we don't know if GRRM changed it because we are not inside his head but se do know that he is not afraid of touching the subject. There is a lot of foreshadowing for it and i agree they think of each other as brothers and sister and a possibile relationship between the two will be creepy but the book is not about fullfilling our wishes. After Jon is resurected He may be a totally different person, hell, he may even be creepily obsessed with Arya because he died (for) thinking about her. Im sure of one thing tho, if it happens it will be no fairytale love but something twisted and dark and i trust GRRM to write it in a believable way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a black swan Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 3 hours ago, Davjos said: Maybe don't pull quotes out of nowhere. I have quoted almost ALL Jon's mentions of Arya and there are two clear views of Arya: - his sister -not attractive. By the way: this is the full quote. Are you saying he is also in love with Bran? Sansa? Is she still my sister? he wondered. Was she ever? He had never truly been a Stark, only Lord Eddard's motherless bastard, with no more place at Winterfell than Theon Greyjoy. And even that he'd lost. When a man of the Night's Watch said his words, he put aside his old family and joined a new one, but Jon Snow had lost those brothers too. He clearly doesn't think of her as a sister at that moment because he took his vows. He does think of her as a sister throughout aDWD. You didn't quote them all, not even close but it's cute that you think you did. If that makes you feel better, keep thinking that. He doesn't think of her as a sister in that moment and he questions her status to him before his vows when he adds the "was she ever". This coupled with the quote you ignored about Jon's views on bedding his sister screams major red flags. Ygritte/Longspear were like Jon/Arya with both pairs sharing a sibling bond growing up together. Yet Jon thinks Longspears is a perfectly acceptable bed mate for Ygritte. Why is George planting that seed? Jon's logic: Technically, Longspear is no true brother to Ygritte (just like Arya isn't truly his sister either). Jon sees that distinction and doesn't disagree with Ygritte's question about him bedding his sister. A hint of his targ ways perhaps? Whatever pairing grrm plans, if he does continue with his original plan, it won't start until after these two reunite. Everything before that is just feeding their strong bond. Conflict of the heart. Jon keeps flip flopping, fighting his desire to help Arya and his vows that disown her. "I have no sister", he said out loud while immediately in his mind he thinks: What do you know of my heart, priestess? What do you know of my sister? - Jon, ADWD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a black swan Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 2 hours ago, Chris Mormont said: No. Arya will end up with Gendry. John has a better chance at being with Sansa than Arya. Arya will always be his little sister in his heart and mind. Jon has enough guilt and second guessing in his life, he would never be able to "be" with her romantically. Sansa, on the other hand, is drawn to the brave Knights in her stories and Jon fits that mold. Jon and Sansa do not seem particularly close but they are close in age. She is beautiful and a marriage between them would secure the North. No. If George is planning on some Stark cousin-marriage plotline, it will be with Arya. He has invested a lot of time and effort feeding this connection while completely ignoring what you're advocating. It doesn't add up. Who cares if Sansa dreamed about knights and heros? What does that have to do with Jon? He never carried for her beauty or personality. He seems more attracted to women like Ygritte, Val, Arya... all have a commonality he describes perfectly when he thinks about Val almost slitting that guard's throat. Lonely and lovely and lethal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davjos Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 18 minutes ago, a black swan said: You didn't quote them all, not even close but it's cute that you think you did. If that makes you feel better, keep thinking that. He doesn't think of her as a sister in that moment and he questions her status to him before his vows when he adds the "was she ever". This coupled with the quote you ignored about Jon's views on bedding his sister screams major red flags. Ygritte/Longspear were like Jon/Arya with both pairs sharing a sibling bond growing up together. Yet Jon thinks Longspears is a perfectly acceptable bed mate for Ygritte. Why is George planting that seed? Jon's logic: Technically, Longspear is no true brother to Ygritte (just like Arya isn't truly his sister either). Jon sees that distinction and doesn't disagree with Ygritte's question about him bedding his sister. A hint of his targ ways perhaps? Whatever pairing grrm plans, if he does continue with his original plan, it won't start until after these two reunite. Everything before that is just feeding their strong bond. Conflict of the heart. Jon keeps flip flopping, fighting his desire to help Arya and his vows that disown her. "I have no sister", he said out loud while immediately in his mind he thinks: What do you know of my heart, priestess? What do you know of my sister? - Jon, ADWD No need to be that condescending when all I pointed out was that you took a quote out of its context. Thank you for thinking that I’m cute though. Makes me feel special. Oh and I clearly meant from the most recent book, ADWD. Could you provide me with the quote about bedding his sister? I must have missed it. Longspear Ryk is quite a different situation. There’s no blood ties. Arya and Jon are clearly related. I don’t think Jon and Arya will be together. GRRM has displayed the incest is mostly born from narcissistic tendencies. Cersei wants Jaime because she thinks he’s Cersei with a dick. The Targs mostly/probably have incest marriages to keep their in their opinion superior bloodline pure. Jon and Arya look the most similar of all the Stark pups. Neither show narcissism, except Jon maybe very lightly as a recruit, thinking himself justly a better swordsman than his fellow recruits. They don’t love themselves enough to desire someone so similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBoss1 Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 9 minutes ago, Davjos said: No need to be that condescending when all I pointed out was that you took a quote out of its context. Thank you for thinking that I’m cute though. Makes me feel special. Oh and I clearly meant from the most recent book, ADWD. Could you provide me with the quote about bedding his sister? I must have missed it. Longspear Ryk is quite a different situation. There’s no blood ties. Arya and Jon are clearly related. I don’t think Jon and Arya will be together. GRRM has displayed the incest is mostly born from narcissistic tendencies. Cersei wants Jaime because she thinks he’s Cersei with a dick. The Targs mostly/probably have incest marriages to keep their in their opinion superior bloodline pure. Jon and Arya look the most similar of all the Stark pups. Neither show narcissism, except Jon maybe very lightly as a recruit, thinking himself justly a better swordsman than his fellow recruits. They don’t love themselves enough to desire someone so similar. So if they find out they weren't siblings would that make it ok for you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Sidious Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 Ordinarily, a sworn brother of the NW cannot and will not marry. Their oaths and their personal honor forbid it. But Jon is not honorable and he is already a deserter and an oath breaker. Rules is not going to stop this guy from doing what he wants. So yeah, there is a possibility. But it is most likely they will just live as lovers and not bother with marriage. And Arya, rules do not exactly hinder her either. They either live on the other side of the wall as wildlings and live like Craster. Doing whatever they want or they become a pack of direwolves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davjos Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 3 minutes ago, BigBoss1 said: So if they find out they weren't siblings would that make it ok for you? I never said it wasn’t ‘ok for me’. I said I found it unlikely based on Jon’s inner thoughts, their physical and emotional similarities (want to exceed societal norms, tendency to hold grudges, value honour etc.) spoiler tag just in case I can’t remember Spoiler Oh and Arya does not seem to take deserting the Wall lightly. Jon would need to desert/break vows to be with her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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