Will Arya end up marrying Jon?

[Damon_Tor]

Just now, Julia H. said:

The really disgusting idea is when posters argue that Jon's feelings for Arya up to this point in the story may be of the romantic kind. When Jon last saw Arya, she was a nine-year-old child. Their relationship was that of a brother and a little sister. She is still very young. Jon is not attracted to children, he is actualy attracted to women slightly older than him (if Ygritte and Val are any indication), or perhaps we can say that to women who are more or less his own age. There has been no room for him to develop any romantic feelings or sexual attraction for Arya. He doesn't even know what she looks like or whether she is really alive. I don't know what will happen later (that outline has been pretty much abandoned, apparently), but should anything romantic / sexual happen between them, it hasn't started yet. Such a relationship would also ruin the most beautiful sibling relationship in these books, but what do I know?  

I don't know... Catelyn loved Brandon and perhaps Ned loved Ashara, and yet, they grew to love each other. Cersei's love for Jaime is of the most narcissistic kind that can possibly exist in this world, and Robert's love for Lyanna seems more like obsession than true love, so maybe it's a certain kind of love that tends to ruin everything. Of course, love and duty are often in conflict, but I don't think the overall message is that love is ultimately a harmful thing. 

Cat didn't really know Brandon. And whatever Ned felt for Ashara (and we can only speculate) he got over it.

I would challenge you to find a single example of a relationship based on love which is not a total, unmitigated disaster. I don't think there's even an example of one where it works out "okay" for the parties involved.

Martin has some heavy baggage in this department.

[Davjos]

9 hours ago, a black swan said:

Well you were pretty condescending as well for absolutely no reason. Those weren't all the references Jon makes to Arya in ADwD.  Still being cute. 

 

"Were you a maid?"

 Ygritte pushed herself onto an elbow. "I am nineteen, and a spearwife, and kissed by fire. How could I be maiden?"

 "Who was he?"

 "A boy at a feast, five years past. He'd come trading with his brothers, and he had hair like mine, kissed by fire, so I thought he would be lucky. But he was weak. When he came back t' try and steal me, Longspear broke his arm and ran him off, and he never tried again, not once."

"It wasn't Longspear, then?" Jon was relieved. He liked Longspear, with his homely face and friendly ways.

 She punched him. "That's vile. Would you bed your sister?"

 "Longspear's not your brother."

 "He's of my village. You know nothing, Jon Snow. A true man steals a woman from afar, t' strengthen the clan. Women who bed brothers or fathers or clan kin offend the gods, and are cursed with weak and sickly children. Even monsters."

"Craster weds his daughters," Jon pointed out.

 

We're not talking about blood though. It's the sibling bond that is an issue. After they learn they are only cousins, the next objection you'll hear is that they "grew up as siblings". The conversation with Ygritte shows Jon doesn't find that a valid point at all. Ygritte grew up with Longspear and he thinks of her like a sister. Jon doesn't agree and replies with a point of fact: Longspear is not her brother. Even though Ygritte thinks of him as such. This point, coupled with the idea that Jon questions if Arya was ever his sister (in truth, she never was) GRRM is seeding these ideas throughout the books. Arya is over in Braavos noticing how much she is growing (referring to her long water dancer legs) and how Jon will not even recognize her when he sees her again. He won't. As you pointed out, he remembers the young girl that kissed him farewell in Winterfell. Not the maiden that will return from Braavos. It's heavily hinted Arya will apprentice with a courtesan at some point and her natural gracefulness seems to be surfacing as well. I wonder how well she will fare under the mentorship of a Lady who is kind and understands her? Someone like the Black Pearl who has already shown an interest in Arya in previous chapters. 

It's only after they reunite that any feelings develop. Not before, like you seem to be stuck on. 

I don't know what George is planning but his continued dalliance with themes involving conflicts of the heart could see this plotline explored like he originally planned. 

 

That's why I used the word 'almost'. But didn't mean to be condescending, sorry if it came across that way.

I agree with you that something might develop, although I highly doubt it, but that's not important. And of course I'm stuck on 'before the reunion of Jon and Arya'. That's all we can go on. We have text on the situation before they meet again. We have nothing except speculation, based on slight clues, for after they reunite. 

With regard to that discussion between Ygritte and Jon, I read it differently. Ygritte does not say: 'I see him as a brother'. She says 'We grew up together, in the same village'. I don't think Ygritte ever compares her friendship with Longspear as sibling-relationship. If Ygritte had more knowledge of Winterfell/castle life in general she probably would not have used Jon's sister as an example of someone you grow up with. She doesn't know about the fact that Jon grew up around other women, such as Jeyne Poole, etc. She doesn't know Winterfell has a village, with traders', carpenters' daughters etc. 
She doesn't compare her relationship with Longspear to that of Jon and Arya. She uses Arya as an example of why you don't bed/marry someone from your own village. But that is just the way I read it. 
And Ygritte also points out that even though their relationship is not a direct sibling relationship, taking someone as closely related as growing up in the same village can cause problems.

 

[kissdbyfire]

Ygritte's chat w/ Jon can be summarised thus: 

the furthest away you get from incest, the better off you are.

[Prince Viserion]

I really don't think so.

[The Fattest Leech]

Martin has commented many times for many years with regards to how he doesn’t use outlines because they inhibit his creative process. These are character driven stories, not plot driven stories. 

And we do not know the ending of his ‘93 outline at all because it was blacked out and wasn’t even the outline for the entire series. 

George was asked about many things, including Jon and Arya, and he answered pretty thoroughly. Read here if you want to 

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/137820-what-would-you-ask-the-grrm-updated/

Any fan of Arya and Jon, or any character in the story, will want their character to avoid incest, which according to this world does include cousins, because GRRM always writes incest with horrible outcomes- whether short term, or long term/dynasty stuff. 

[BigBoss1]

53 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Ygritte's chat w/ Jon can be summarised thus: 

the furthest away you get from incest, the better off you are.

And Jon's response actually is "its okay if they're not related" and by related i mean close relationship like brother and sister.

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, BigBoss1 said:

And Jon's response actually is "its okay if they're not related" and by related i mean close relationship like brother and sister.

And brother and sister here mean people who have believed all their lives that they were siblings, not only actual siblings. After all, it's not like upon learning a sibling of yours is not really a sibling but a first cousin, you can just flip a switch and go, "oh we're only first cousins? Cool bananas, let's fuck then coz I just realised now I totes have the hots for you". 

[BigBoss1]

45 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Martin has commented many times for many years with regards to how he doesn’t use outlines because they inhibit his creative process. These are character driven stories, not plot driven stories. 

And we do not know the ending of his ‘93 outline at all because it was blacked out and wasn’t even the outline for the entire series. 

George was asked about many things, including Jon and Arya, and he answered pretty thoroughly. Read here if you want to 

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/137820-what-would-you-ask-the-grrm-updated/

Any fan of Arya and Jon, or any character in the story, will want their character to avoid incest, which according to this world does include cousins, because GRRM always writes incest with horrible outcomes- whether short term, or long term/dynasty stuff. 

 "went straight from talking about the references in the actual books, to the "differences" in the outline from then to now. He did say that he still knows who sits the iron throne and the end game of the main 5, but also included Sansa, but did not give any details (for obvious reasons)."

By this i can presume he already ha the big character's ending planned  out by then and then he says the story grows and changes as he writes but still he did not deny nor confirm a possible relationship between the two.

About Jon comparing Arya and Ygritte it still makes Jon attracted to Arya's bodytype and personality, im not saying He was attracted to Arya right there and then but that could change.

Cousin relationship are not incest in westerosi (south of the wall) culture. 

Incest is a sin and a person can be executed for that, did anyone accuse Rickard Stark or Tywin of incest for marrying their cousin?

[BigBoss1]

9 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

And brother and sister here mean people who have believed all their lives that they were siblings, not only actual siblings. After all, it's not like upon learning a sibling of yours is not really a sibling but a first cousin, you can just flip a switch and go, "oh we're only first cousins? Cool bananas, let's fuck then coz I just realised now I totes have the hots for you". 

Of course it would not happen like that.

If it happens and i dont know if it will jon would be conflicted and probably disgusted with himself. 

 

[Julia H.]

1 hour ago, Damon_Tor said:

Cat didn't really know Brandon. And whatever Ned felt for Ashara (and we can only speculate) he got over it.

Do you want to suggest that Cat didn't love Brandon just because she didn't know him well enough? Sure, Ned (just like Cat) must have got over any other love (if he had one in the first place) but he also came to love Cat, as Catelyn also grew to love him. Just because it wasn't love at first sight, and because they were married, it doesn't mean it wasn't real love.  

1 hour ago, Damon_Tor said:

I would challenge you to find a single example of a relationship based on love which is not a total, unmitigated disaster. I don't think there's even an example of one where it works out "okay" for the parties involved.

Martin has some heavy baggage in this department.

Munda and Longspear?  

Oberyn and Ellaria? 

I wouldn't exclude the relationship between Cat and Ned either, but I guess you define "based on love" as starting with love. I, however, think that, while their marriage was based on duty, over time they developed a new kind of relationship, which was based on love.

Look, if you want to say that there are no pure and romantic love relationships with a happy ending in these novels, I absolutely agree with you. But is the inevitable disaster always due to the love? To give just one example, Jon and Ygritte could never have had a long and happy relationship because they were on two different sides in a war and because Jon's vow meant he could never have been happy with her (as an oathbreaker). But Ygritte's love saved Jon's life and helped him understand the wildlings better, and Ygritte didn't die because of her love but because she was taking part in a battle.

In many cases, love means an inner conflict where love and duty dictate different things, but is it just that love is always destructive or is it also that some duties are extremely demanding, requiring the people in this world to give up things that are fundamental parts of human nature? 

There are also the cases where love simply does not bring happiness for natural reasons (because it is not mutual, because it does not last, because a loved one dies etc.). It happens in real life, too. Martin may have some heavy baggage in this respect, but he is a writer, and we know it already from Tolstoy that unhappy families are much more interesting in a novel than happy ones. 

Finally, it is not only "love relationships" that bring about disasters. Loveless family relationships, like the marriage of Cersei and Robert, the father and child relationships in Tywin's family, the sibling hatred between Cersei and Tyrion, the Lysa and Jon Arryn marriage, also cause suffering and even great tragedies. It is a complicated issue. 

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, BigBoss1 said:

 "went straight from talking about the references in the actual books, to the "differences" in the outline from then to now. He did say that he still knows who sits the iron throne and the end game of the main 5, but also included Sansa, but did not give any details (for obvious reasons)."

By this i can presume he already ha the big character's ending planned  out by then and then he says the story grows and changes as he writes but still he did not deny nor confirm a possible relationship between the two.

 

He made it very clear that what people are assuming as clues are infact not. This happens a lot in the fandom, especially with “shippers” and certain posters who like to spam the forum with threads that purposely try to start flame wars. 

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About Jon comparing Arya and Ygritte it still makes Jon attracted to Arya's bodytype and personality, im not saying He was attracted to Arya right there and then but that could change.

Bran also describes Leaf almost the same as Jon compares Ygritte. Does that mean Bran is attracted to Leaf? Ned also has the same messy hair described like Arya. Does that mean Jon was also attracted to Ned? No, it shows there is a comfort level Jon knows. This “body type” debate is as baseless as Jon and Sansa shippers claiming Jon prefers redheads. 

Besides, this description of Ygritte’s small frame and layers of mismatched skins is another hint to Lyanna as a player in the Knight of the Laughing Tree situation. As are most comparison/mentions of Arya that are close in text to a mention of who Jon’s mother could be. 

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Cousin relationship are not incest in westerosi (south of the wall) culture.

They are and it is spelled out rather clearly in the main story and the World book. And a cousin is of the same village. 

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Incest is a sin and a person can be executed for that, did anyone accuse Rickard Stark or Tywin of incest for marrying their cousin?

Ask Cersei. 

And Rickard married a cousin once removed. Whole new bloodlines added to that scenario. 

Tywin married against the norms of society and went for power instead. GRRM has made this clear in an interview as well when asked. Marriages are supposed to be between different families to build alliances, also not unlike the first men ideals, but Tywin married for power. Something he repeats with Sansa, Lady Ermasande, and Ameri Frey. Power and control, just like Targs. 

I’m actually rather over this whole incest shipping idea. It’s trite and goes against the canon. I’m not replying any further and really just wanted to share the info first provided. 

[Clegane'sPup]

Oh, I dunna know Jon & Arya shippers, let us say in the beginning Jon is 14 and Arya is 9.

Then five years later Jon is 19 and Arya is 14.

In between those 5 years Jon got his cherry popped by Ygritte. She dies. Jon is also attracted to Val.

Kinda gives me a hint as to what type  he is attracted to.

Before I can sexually and/or romantically ship Jon & Arya can ya splain how the imagined soon to be lovers reunite to become man and wife?

LC Snow is supposedly dead at the Wall and Arya is learning skills via the HoBaW in Braavos.

 

[chrisdaw]

The Jon and Ygritte conversation about stealing from afar or you could make monsters is obviously a reference to Jon+Dany.

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Mother of dragons, Daenerys thought. Mother of monsters. What have I unleashed upon the world? A queen I am, but my throne is made of burned bones, and it rests on quicksand. Without dragons, how could she hope to hold Meereen, much less win back Westeros? I am the blood of the dragon, she thought. If they are monsters, so am I.

 

[Damon_Tor]

5 hours ago, Julia H. said:

Do you want to suggest that Cat didn't love Brandon just because she didn't know him well enough? Sure, Ned (just like Cat) must have got over any other love (if he had one in the first place) but he also came to love Cat, as Catelyn also grew to love him. Just because it wasn't love at first sight, and because they were married, it doesn't mean it wasn't real love. 

I suppose it comes down to whether love is motivating action. Love always leads to poor choices, choices that lead to ruin. Whatever it is Ned and Cat feel for each other (and "fondness" is as far as I'll take it, personally) they don't allow it to weigh their decisions.

[a black swan]

15 hours ago, Davjos said:

I agree with you that something might develop, although I highly doubt it, but that's not important. And of course I'm stuck on 'before the reunion of Jon and Arya'. That's all we can go on. We have text on the situation before they meet again. We have nothing except speculation, based on slight clues, for after they reunite. 

 

That's all it really is at this point... just speculation. I'm not saying it will definitely happen either. But if GRRM wants to write it out that way, he has laid a foundation for it already and it would fit in with his exploration of the conflict of the heart. 

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With regard to that discussion between Ygritte and Jon, I read it differently. Ygritte does not say: 'I see him as a brother'. She says 'We grew up together, in the same village'. I don't think Ygritte ever compares her friendship with Longspear as sibling-relationship. 

Why does she pose the "bedding your sister" question to Jon in the first place? What is she implying here? Jon is talking about Longspear (someone Ygritte grew up with and looks out for her) and implies what Jon is saying is like sleeping with your sister. That's what her and Longspear shared in their bond. The idea of bedding him in completely foreign to her. But not Jon apparently. 

 

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She doesn't compare her relationship with Longspear to that of Jon and Arya.

She is talking about her own sibling-like relationship with Longspear when she suggested a sister in her question about her losing her virginity to Longspear. 

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She uses Arya as an example of why you don't bed/marry someone from your own village. But that is just the way I read it. 

Ygritte makes an argument against bedding kin or someone your grew up with. My point is Jon's reaction which is to point out that Longspear is not really her brother like she originally implied. It was strange conversation mostly due to Jon's responses. 

 

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And Ygritte also points out that even though their relationship is not a direct sibling relationship, taking someone as closely related as growing up in the same village can cause problems.

That doesn't seem to deter Jon, which was my original point. Ygritte is very clear in her position, which is morally correct. It's just Jon being very strange in his responses that suggests he doesn't agree. Growing up close like siblings, in the same village...etc are all things that don't seem to be a factor for Jon. 

[Springwatch]

Jon is a half-Targ who thinks like a Stark. I don't think he will forget his Stark mindset, but he probably will share some instinctive Targ behaviour - and Targs seem to be very possessive of their siblings relationships, even before adolescence (Cersei, Egg's sisters), even when sex isn't a factor (Baelor the Blessed). I'm guessing one reason Jon went all out to rescue 'Arya' is because Ramsay married her.

I can imagine Jon, in an extreme situation, marrying his sisters to stop anyone else marrying them. I'd be expecting a marriage in name only though (there'd be an echo in Frank Herbert's Dune series in this).

[BigBoss1]

7 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Jon is a half-Targ who thinks like a Stark. I don't think he will forget his Stark mindset, but he probably will share some instinctive Targ behaviour - and Targs seem to be very possessive of their siblings relationships, even before adolescence (Cersei, Egg's sisters), even when sex isn't a factor (Baelor the Blessed). I'm guessing one reason Jon went all out to rescue 'Arya' is because Ramsay married her.

I can imagine Jon, in an extreme situation, marrying his sisters to stop anyone else marrying them. I'd be expecting a marriage in name only though (there'd be an echo in Frank Herbert's Dune series in this).

I think incest being a gene is nonsense.

Targaryens are attracted to siblings because of their enviroment i dont think it is common for attraction to a family member to develoap naturally.

Jon marrying Arya out of a political arrangement would be interesting. 

[Springwatch]

1 hour ago, BigBoss1 said:

I think incest being a gene is nonsense.

Targaryens are attracted to siblings because of their enviroment i dont think it is common for attraction to a family member to develoap naturally.

It would be fantasy genetics, without a doubt. It works for me because I'm 100% convinced that Aerys fathered Cersei and Jaime, giving them the Targ genes without the Targ environment.

[bemused]

On 8/22/2018 at 1:38 PM, Springwatch said:

It would be fantasy genetics, without a doubt. It works for me because I'm 100% convinced that Aerys fathered Cersei and Jaime, giving them the Targ genes without the Targ environment.

I don't think it's a genetic thing at all, though it tickles me to think / hope that Tywin, with his power-hungry dynastic obsessions actually fathered no children. (And it is easy to believe that Cersei got the Targaryen tendency to madness)

Jon and Arya? Not a chance, IMO. Val will be his great love... however that ends.

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I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall.

Steal her ... check

Her love ... signs are good

Off to a good start.

[Legitimate_Bastard]

No way.

Even if Jon is Lyanna and Rhaegars' son that would make them first cousins. I think that is too close. 

Regardless of his affection for her as a sister.