Aftermath of Daenerys Campaign

[Starkz]

9 minutes ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Cities can be rebuilt from the rubble.  That may be the point of the story.  The slaver cities have gone for so long with their evil that it is time to bring them down and rebuild again.  This time without the slavery.  Naturally, it takes time to build a city and a culture.  The old culture of slaving will have to go away.  Tearing down a city built by slave labor is the symbolic demolition of the slave trade.

Rebuilding Astapor and repopulating it is going to take the better part of a century if it even is rebuilt succesfully best case scenario. I have no problem with slavery ending I just believe Daenerys could of done a much better job of it that didn’t end with tens of thousands of people dead and having to start entirely from scratch. Also I’m not entirely sure she will even be able to eradicate slavery from all of these cities.

[Starkz]

1 hour ago, Buell Rider said:

They will bend the knee and accept those reforms when enough of them die.  The South did during the Civil War.  Sherman's March really put the hurt on the rebels.  Hurt them bad enough and destroy any hope they might have of bringing back slavery, they will roll over.  And the ones who don't will have to die.  

Liberate Meereen and the slaves in the other cities will revolt.  Meereen and Volantis are the most powerful of the slaver cities.  Take both of them down, by that I mean destroy the master class in both cities, and slavery will end.  The cities are now on an even playing field economically.  

Look, nobody said ending slavery won't bring temporary pain.  It will.  But it is the correct decision.  There is no one better than Daenerys Targaryen to see this through.  This is a smart young woman who managed to lead a khalasar through the Red Waste.   I have confidence in her abilities to liberate the slaves and bring on needed change to that part of the world.

The Civil War was NOT fought over slavery. This was a CIVIL WAR this wasn’t a conquerer coming over and demanding that the US change their laws regarding slavery and the US did not rely on slaves only the South did which was the minor faction. Your solution to slavery is to kill tens of thousands of masters so you think they’re going to just roll over and die? Thousands upon thousands will die with that logic of exterminating them all. I too trust that Daenerys can be the catalyst for change in these places but it’s next to impossible for her to do that and go to and rule Westeros. If George does somehow have her abolish slavery in the free cities they will need to form their own government and rule themselves. We’ve already seen what’s happened with Daenerys trying to rule Meereen, she’ll be the catalyst and the people will need to bring about their new world.

[Makk]

Just now, Starkz said:

The Civil War was NOT fought over slavery. This was a CIVIL WAR this wasn’t a conquerer coming over and demanding that the US change their laws regarding slavery and the US did not rely on slaves only the South did which was the minor faction. Your solution to slavery is to kill tens of thousands of masters so you think they’re going to just roll over and die? Thousands upon thousands will die with that logic of exterminating them all. I too trust that Daenerys can be the catalyst for change in these places but it’s next to impossible for her to do that and go to and rule Westeros. If George does somehow have her abolish slavery in the free cities they will need to form their own government and rule themselves. We’ve already seen what’s happened with Daenerys trying to rule Meereen, she’ll be the catalyst and the people will need to bring about their new world.

I agree with this although I think it is highly likely they will be successful at least in Meereen. I don't believe Daenerys's arc there is understood at all well. She was actually successful in obtaining a genuine peace and a genuine road map to cultural revolution (and in a remarkably short time). The locusts were poisoned by the Shavepate rather than the Harpy, as a desperate last ditch attempt to retain power and relevance.

However given the aftermath of this, including Daenerys personal change and finding out that peace wasn't everything she wanted, the future is much less certain. I do think it will work out in the end with her leaving a stable rulership in Meereen (and possibly other cities) before she heads to Westeros.

[Darth Sidious]

5 minutes ago, Starkz said:

The Civil War was NOT fought over slavery. This was a CIVIL WAR this wasn’t a conquerer coming over and demanding that the US change their laws regarding slavery and the US did not rely on slaves only the South did which was the minor faction. Your solution to slavery is to kill tens of thousands of masters so you think they’re going to just roll over and die? Thousands upon thousands will die with that logic of exterminating them all. I too trust that Daenerys can be the catalyst for change in these places but it’s next to impossible for her to do that and go to and rule Westeros. If George does somehow have her abolish slavery in the free cities they will need to form their own government and rule themselves. We’ve already seen what’s happened with Daenerys trying to rule Meereen, she’ll be the catalyst and the people will need to bring about their new world.

You and I are obviously not going to reach agreement on this.  The masters have a choice.  Slavery is wrong.  They want to continue slavery.  They can choose to accept the removal of slavery or they can continue fighting.  It is really that simple.  I agree with the other Daenerys supporters.  There is no need to accommodate the masters because you either have slavery or you don't.  They can do what is right and release their slaves or they can fight to continue enslaving, and die.  

The only selling point to these masters is to say "getting rid of slavery will mean losing most of your wealth but you will have the satisfaction of knowing you are not taking the freedom from other people and forcing them to work for you."  That will obviously not work because the slave owners are not interested in doing the moral thing.  I see no reason to work out a peace deal with them unless they are willing to give up slavery.  It is their choice.  

  

[Moiraine Sedai]

2 hours ago, Buell Rider said:

Like I said above, this is a work in progress.  It is too early to judge these reforms.  It had to be done because the atrocities committed by the master class each day that slavery continues is an extreme violation of human rights.  

There is no model for this.  They have nothing to point to in their history to see how the liberation of millions was done.  We, at least in America, can look back to the Civil War.  A war which killed more Americans than any other war before or since.  It was hard and it brought a lot of suffering.  It brought devastation.  Recovery was slow.  Both the old slave owners and their former slaves went through hard times shortly after the end of the war.  But it would be crazy to say the war should never have been fought.  Generations of people that came after are better because of it.  You cannot judge something on this large scale by its effects on each and every individual.  The overall result is good.  The same can be said for Daenerys Targaryen's war against slavery.  

I agree.  This is uncharted territory.  Only someone with Dany's greatness has any chance of making it happen.  The Masters and the Harpy are standing in the way.  They can step aside or be destroyed. 

 

It is ambitious and has the potential to improve the lives of millions currently living and prevent future enslavement of many more.  The Masters have a choice.  Let their slaves go, never attempt to bring back slavery, or they can die.  They get to choose.  

[Moiraine Sedai]

15 minutes ago, Buell Rider said:

You and I are obviously not going to reach agreement on this.  The masters have a choice.  Slavery is wrong.  They want to continue slavery.  They can choose to accept the removal of slavery or they can continue fighting.  It is really that simple.  I agree with the other Daenerys supporters.  There is no need to accommodate the masters because you either have slavery or you don't.  They can do what is right and release their slaves or they can fight to continue enslaving, and die.  

The only selling point to these masters is to say "getting rid of slavery will mean losing most of your wealth but you will have the satisfaction of knowing you are not taking the freedom from other people and forcing them to work for you."  That will obviously not work because the slave owners are not interested in doing the moral thing.  I see no reason to work out a peace deal with them unless they are willing to give up slavery.  It is their choice.  

  

There will be a small few.  Like Skahaz mo Kandaq who will accept the ending of the slave trade.  They are a good foundation from which to build a new society.  

[Davjos]

Won’t the fact that Dany will travel West with a huge Khalessar limit the slave trade a lot. I think it is a pretty safe bet that Dany, with her knowledge of Dothraki culture and her dragons would be able to get at least 50% of the Dothraki to go west, where realistically only death awaits them (knights, castles, winter and Westeros cannot support a huge khallesar and GRRM might be forced to kill them). The Dothraki are responsible for a lot of the slaves  being traded IIRC. Taking them away would reduce supply to a point slavery might be economically less viable too, making the abolishment of slavery more attractive to other Free Cities. 

 

Oh and Bravos must have a role to play in this abolishment too. Perhaps using their fleet to actively pirate the slavers. 

[Ylath's Snout]

9 minutes ago, Davjos said:

Won’t the fact that Dany will travel West with a huge Khalessar limit the slave trade a lot. I think it is a pretty safe bet that Dany, with her knowledge of Dothraki culture and her dragons would be able to get at least 50% of the Dothraki to go west

No offence but going by the book I don't see Dany bringing any Dothraki anywhere right now, let alone 50%.

A smaller supply of slaves won't matter as much as you might think because of Astapor being ruined at the moment there is less of a demand for them. 

9 minutes ago, Davjos said:

The Dothraki are responsible for a lot of the slaves  being traded IIRC. Taking them away would reduce supply to a point slavery might be economically less viable too, making the abolishment of slavery more attractive to other Free Cities.

If there are fewer Dothraki around to hunt for slaves the remaining Khalasars will be able to grow in numbers and wealth with less competition for resources.

If by some miracle Dany got most of the Dothraki to tag along for a cold miserable death in Westeros then someone else would "step up" to fill the some of the roles the Dothrakis had. Sellswords looking for easy pray or Unsullied are two groups that could take up slaving in their stead just to name some examples.

[Lord Varys]

Guys, Volantis is an aristocratic republic. They do have elections, and there are five slaves on every free man in that city. The majority of those slaves do follow a religion that sees Dany as the savior of mankind.

There will be a revolution there, and then the Widow of the Waterfront will be the leading triarch. Slavery will be abolished, and most slaves will worship Daenerys. The foolish Volantenes even have a standing army and navy made up of slaves. They are doomed.

In the Three Daughters only three slaves come on a free man, and military and navy there are in the hands of sellswords and sellsails and free men, not slaves. That might allow them to crush slave revolts, meaning that Dany and her people will have to crush them.

There is no future for the Ghiscari - they will all be destroyed, not just the Slaver's Bay cities but also New Ghis and the old Valyrian colonies.

The Dothraki, the Ironborn, and the Volantene soldiers will give her the power to do all that. And the era of Dothraki slavery will be over, too, once Dany takes control of all the Dothraki at Vaes Dothrak. They will all bow to the dragon. Or they will burn.

[Jaehaerys Tyrell]

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Guys, Volantis is an aristocratic republic. They do have elections, and there are five slaves on every free man in that city. The majority of those slaves do follow a religion that sees Dany as the savior of mankind.

There will be a revolution there, and then the Widow of the Waterfront will be the leading triarch. Slavery will be abolished, and most slaves will worship Daenerys. The foolish Volantenes even have a standing army and navy made up of slaves. They are doomed.

In the Three Daughters only three slaves come on a free man, and military and navy there are in the hands of sellswords and sellsails and free men, not slaves. That might allow them to crush slave revolts, meaning that Dany and her people will have to crush them.

There is no future for the Ghiscari - they will all be destroyed, not just the Slaver's Bay cities but also New Ghis and the old Valyrian colonies.

The Dothraki, the Ironborn, and the Volantene soldiers will give her the power to do all that. And the era of Dothraki slavery will be over, too, once Dany takes control of all the Dothraki at Vaes Dothrak. They will all bow to the dragon. Or they will burn.

If GRRM is aiming for realism, then Slaver’s Bay must be so much more than just slavery, with its own rich history and culture and genetic makeup. To destroy the bay’s city states would be genocide, and would be an evil thing to do. 

[Ylath's Snout]

@Lord Varys I can't find any faults with what you are saying, buuut something working out in a mostly positive way seems pretty unprecedented in this book series. 

[Ylath's Snout]

2 minutes ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

If GRRM is aiming for realism, then Slaver’s Bay must be so much more than just slavery, with its own rich history and culture and genetic makeup. To destroy the bay’s city states would be genocide, and would be an evil thing to do. 

Going by the standard of Slaver = Insta kill Dany would have to wipe out ancient Greece and Rome, just some food for thought.

[Davjos]

@Ylath's Snout No offence taken at all! I sadly have watched the horrible thing that used to be a great tv show, but don't base my opinion on that (maybe very slightly). But I don't really see an out for GRRM. He needs to accelerate a lot in Mereen I feel. Otherwise the story on the Wall would be rather weird. The Wildlings have fled south for a reason, the Others were introduced in the first season. I'd be quite disappointed if GRRM does a lot of work to introduce this 'rapidly' approaching, looming danger, but they were to arrive in a couple of years after ADWD. But it would not be in Dany's character to stay in Mereen/the Grass Sea if Westeros is suffering. She conquered Mereen to help those people. I'd assume she'd help Westeros. But she also needs to leave Mereen to help them, and won't leave Mereen in the state it is now, I think. 

So that's most of why I expect Dany to gain something significant on the Grass Sea. Otherwise her story in Mereen would realistically finish after the Long Night starts. The Dothraki seem like one of the last outs GRRM has. Instead of untying the Mereenese knot, just cutting it all open if you catch my vibe. 

[Starkz]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Guys, Volantis is an aristocratic republic. They do have elections, and there are five slaves on every free man in that city. The majority of those slaves do follow a religion that sees Dany as the savior of mankind.

There will be a revolution there, and then the Widow of the Waterfront will be the leading triarch. Slavery will be abolished, and most slaves will worship Daenerys. The foolish Volantenes even have a standing army and navy made up of slaves. They are doomed.

In the Three Daughters only three slaves come on a free man, and military and navy there are in the hands of sellswords and sellsails and free men, not slaves. That might allow them to crush slave revolts, meaning that Dany and her people will have to crush them.

There is no future for the Ghiscari - they will all be destroyed, not just the Slaver's Bay cities but also New Ghis and the old Valyrian colonies.

The Dothraki, the Ironborn, and the Volantene soldiers will give her the power to do all that. And the era of Dothraki slavery will be over, too, once Dany takes control of all the Dothraki at Vaes Dothrak. They will all bow to the dragon. Or they will burn.

Everything does seem to be conveniently lining up for her right now while she’s away. All Daenerys really needs to do right now is get the Dothraki to follow her while her allies sort out the Meereen situation and beat the armies there, which Barristan and the Ironborn seem to be easily doing.

[Starkz]

39 minutes ago, Davjos said:

But she also needs to leave Mereen to help them, and won't leave Mereen in the state it is now, I think. 
 

I imagine she’ll leave someone or a group of people in charge of Meereen to fix it while she most likely goes to Volantis and then to Westeros, she’s a dragon after all, a conquerer not a ruler.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

If GRRM is aiming for realism, then Slaver’s Bay must be so much more than just slavery, with its own rich history and culture and genetic makeup. To destroy the bay’s city states would be genocide, and would be an evil thing to do. 

That doesn't seem to be the case. Or rather - not to the degree that it is important. The slaver cities wealth is based entirely on slavery. They take the raw material and then they mold them into slaves of every kind. That's their business. They do not only buy and sell slaves, they also train them. If you want special slaves, slaves who can work in this or that profession, you go to Slaver's Bay.

You don't go there for copper or for olives. And you can't keep the economy in the region going and have prosperous cities without the slave trade.

If the cities are gone, if their culture burns with their homes and with the people sticking to the old way, then the survivors can change or leave with Daenerys. Not before. Whatever peasants in the hinterlands, etc. remain won't be important.

And thinking about that - I imagine Dany will give Slaver's Bay to the Lhazareen. They seem to be an amiable non-slaver folk, and that could ensure that the whoever remains won't turn back to the old ways.

1 hour ago, Ylath's Snout said:

@Lord Varys I can't find any faults with what you are saying, buuut something working out in a mostly positive way seems pretty unprecedented in this book series. 

Well, the end of slavery story isn't exactly the pain plot - so if that works out reasonably well it doesn't have anything to do with the other plots. And it is not that Dany has to control all that. She started it and she is symbol for this movement, but she is not likely going to return to Meereen soon - nor is she going to have any direct influence on the revolting slaves in Volantis or the Three Daughters - at least not while she isn't there yet. A lot of that might happen off page. Volantis is likely going to be ruled by the Widow of the Waterfront when Dany or Tyrion finally arrive there.

41 minutes ago, Starkz said:

Everything does seem to be conveniently lining up for her right now while she’s away. All Daenerys really needs to do right now is get the Dothraki to follow her while her allies sort out the Meereen situation and beat the armies there, which Barristan and the Ironborn seem to be easily doing.

You don't have to look for the ugly thing to guess Dany's future plot. Think of the vision from the House of the Undying where the dosh khaleen submit to her. She will go to Vaes Dothrak and the dosh khaleen will submit to her and declare her the Stallion That Mounts the World and then all the Dothraki will worship her as their living goddess - just as those from her khalasar are already doing.

She is a dragonlord now, and the old Dothraki (and even Drogo) wanted to get close to them or emulate them. In TWoIaF we have Khal Dhako who liked to burn things and fancied himself 'the Dragon of the North'. And we get hints that back in the early days when the Dothraki were all just one khalasar their true ruler was the witch-queen Doshi, the mother of Khal Mengo who united all the Dothraki under his rule. From her name the dosh khaleen get theirs, and while they do not rule the Dothraki directly, they are their spiritual leaders. What they say is done, especially in affairs that concern them all.

I don't know how this will go, but it is clear it will happen. Khal Jhaqo and Mago might be torn about what to do with Dany now, but even they are going to be in awe in light of the fact that she rules Drogon now. Many of their men might worship Dany long before she arrives in Vaes Dothrak.

Oh, and Qarth has to go, too. I expect Dany to pay them a visit on dragonback along with a khalasar - or a couple of them - after she has taken over the Dothraki.

[Euron Lannister]

5 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Staying slave free maybe but "becoming westerosi colonies" is completely unfounded. 

What?

the one who wants to become queen of (most of) westeros rules meereen and took astapor and yunkai once. if she wins the throne and does not loose meereen or how many cities she conquered before sailing west, they become colonies of the realm, its as founded as it could get.

 

[Starkz]

20 minutes ago, Euron Lannister said:

What?

the one who wants to become queen of (most of) westeros rules meereen and took astapor and yunkai once. if she wins the throne and does not loose meereen or how many cities she conquered before sailing west, they become colonies of the realm, its as founded as it could get.

 

She may conquoer them but I doubt she will keep them. Most likely she will give them to her allies or people she deems to be “good”. The cities are just stockpiles for her to amass wealth and armies to bring to Westeros. 

Also even with dragons ruling over the cities from all the way over in Westeros isn’t exactly palatable if she does manage to conquer Westeros.

[Aline de Gavrillac]

3 hours ago, Davjos said:

Won’t the fact that Dany will travel West with a huge Khalessar limit the slave trade a lot. I think it is a pretty safe bet that Dany, with her knowledge of Dothraki culture and her dragons would be able to get at least 50% of the Dothraki to go west, where realistically only death awaits them (knights, castles, winter and Westeros cannot support a huge khallesar and GRRM might be forced to kill them). The Dothraki are responsible for a lot of the slaves  being traded IIRC. Taking them away would reduce supply to a point slavery might be economically less viable too, making the abolishment of slavery more attractive to other Free Cities. 

 

Oh and Bravos must have a role to play in this abolishment too. Perhaps using their fleet to actively pirate the slavers. 

Doing this would be impossible for a regular khal.  Not so for the Mother of Dragons.  If she should choose to do this.  I believe she may only take enough to reclaim the throne.  Most of her support will come from the nobles and the smallfolk who are tired of the Starks, the Lannisters, and the Baratheons.  There is no need to bring a large Dothraki force.  She will bring her Unsullied and that will be her infantry, the best in the world.  And her three dragons.

Winning the Dosh Khaleen will give her control of the khalasars.  Getting them to stop slaving would soon follow.  She is on the right track to accomplish this.

[Starkz]

3 hours ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

Doing this would be impossible for a regular khal.  Not so for the Mother of Dragons.  If she should choose to do this.  I believe she may only take enough to reclaim the throne.  Most of her support will come from the nobles and the smallfolk who are tired of the Starks, the Lannisters, and the Baratheons.  There is no need to bring a large Dothraki force.  She will bring her Unsullied and that will be her infantry, the best in the world.  And her three dragons.

Winning the Dosh Khaleen will give her control of the khalasars.  Getting them to stop slaving would soon follow.  She is on the right track to accomplish this.

Getting nobles to support her against the Lannisters will probably be difficult. Unless she comes to some agreement with Aegon she doesn’t have Dorne and many of the Westeros people still remember Aerys and she is his daughter arriving to a place she’s never been with dragons and a foreign army. Great for propaganda. It will be difficult for her to garner support, but overtime she will.