Was KL a poisoned apple for Stannis without the Tyrell's support?

[Varysblackfyre321]

As in if he did suceed in invading it would he suffer more than he'd profit from  taking it? 

[The Sleeper]

His other option would have been to subdue or destroy each of the other claimants individually. By taking King's Landing he would actually have a place to start. 

[honorable men]

The odds were in his favor and he would've repelled any attacks of retaking the capital. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

In your scenario did the alliance with Highgarden happen or not?

[honorable men]

Tyrell-Lannister alliance dies with the death of Joffrey, Tyrells would've gone home and Tommen would've been found. Stannis would give Sansa back to Robb and he could've avoided the RW en-route from retaking the North back from the Iron Born. Tywin knowing Jaime isnt in the capital because hes all about that legacy... would probably not try retaking the capital and probably chase Robb back into the North or discover Jaime hoovering around Harrenhal. Tywin would probably come back to try to retake the capital though. 

[Ylath's Snout]

8 minutes ago, honorable men said:

Tyrells would've gone home and Tommen would've been found.

Maybe they would offer a Tyrell boy to marry Shireen?

She will need a hubby at some point and Stannis would need food for King's Landing.

[Varysblackfyre321]

3 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

In your scenario did the alliance with Highgarden happen or not?

Not*

[Lion of the West]

It was very much a posioned apple as in that regardless of taking it or not, the fact that the Tyrells have declared against Stannis means that he would only either hasten or postpone his own destruction. Without at least one Great House on his side he simply wasn't going to win the crown. Hence why he was a fool to discard the advice to seek an alliance with the Arryns and make common cause with Robb. Yes, it would have sundered the realm but it was Stannis best chance to gain the crown. It would have to be to Stannis heir or heir's heir to bring the Riverlands and North back into the fold.

[Ylath's Snout]

12 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

Hence why he was a fool to discard the advice to seek an alliance with the Arryns and make common cause with Robb. Yes, it would have sundered the realm but it was Stannis best chance to gain the crown. It would have to be to Stannis heir or heir's heir to bring the Riverlands and North back into the fold.

Just cut a deal with Robb and raise House Stark to the same status as House Martell. That way Robb can save face with the Northern lords and you get the Riverlands and North sort of back into the fold.

[Tagganaro]

No I don't think so.  I think Stannis had a good strategic plan- the issue was that it was a terrible tactical plan.  Meaning that the idea of taking King's Landing and killing/controlling the Lannister bastards was actually very solid, and I think would have worked in the long run had the tactics used to take King's Landing not been so weak.  

I mean, Ser Imry sailed the entire fleet right into a trap (completely unnecessarily and with a total lack of any kind of caution).  I think this catastrophic loss of most of Stannis's army  ultimately doomed Stannis nearly as much as the Tyrells showing up.

Also, luck plays a huge part in this too.  Stannis's fleet was delayed for several days by bad weather- had it arrived just a day earlier the city probably falls, Stannis gets Joffrey, and then can begin to fortify KL.  A much different battle at this point, considering that maybe even the Tyrells don't consider it worth the risk. 

[The Sleeper]

23 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

It was very much a posioned apple as in that regardless of taking it or not, the fact that the Tyrells have declared against Stannis means that he would only either hasten or postpone his own destruction. Without at least one Great House on his side he simply wasn't going to win the crown. Hence why he was a fool to discard the advice to seek an alliance with the Arryns and make common cause with Robb. Yes, it would have sundered the realm but it was Stannis best chance to gain the crown. It would have to be to Stannis heir or heir's heir to bring the Riverlands and North back into the fold.

Considering the fact that he could have Renly assassinated at any time he could have relinquished his claim, finish the war in shot order and then get rid of Renly. 

[aryagonnakill#2]

41 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

It was very much a posioned apple as in that regardless of taking it or not, the fact that the Tyrells have declared against Stannis means that he would only either hasten or postpone his own destruction. Without at least one Great House on his side he simply wasn't going to win the crown. Hence why he was a fool to discard the advice to seek an alliance with the Arryns and make common cause with Robb. Yes, it would have sundered the realm but it was Stannis best chance to gain the crown. It would have to be to Stannis heir or heir's heir to bring the Riverlands and North back into the fold.

You don't think Robb would have bent the knee at that point gladly?  I do, between getting Sansa back, and having the rightful heir of Robert in place ready to help end the war I don't see any reason he wouldn't have.  Stannis at that point also was a great house controlling Storms End and the Stormlands.  It seems likely Dorne would also have continued to pay homage to the most powerful house, if in name only.  That gives Stannis the North, the Riverlands, the Crownlands, the Stormlands, and Dorne.  With Kings Landing not under siege by land or Sea, the city would not have starved either.  The city would be happy to not be starving anymore, and the Tyrells would have a huge decision on their hands.

[Ylath's Snout]

7 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I do, between getting Sansa back, and having the rightful heir of Robert in place ready to help end the war I don't see any reason he wouldn't have. 

Wouldn't he risk losing the respect and loyalty of his lords if he knelt at that point?

IMHO Over all it would be a solid move on RObb's part but getting his bannermen to approve might be tricky.

[The Sunland Lord]

Stannis could've only made a deal with Robb and Renly. Robb should've bent the knee to him, and also Renly. 

Then the Tyrells would go out but the Stormlands, Dragonstone, Riverlands and the North actually stood a chance. In this situation it's uncertain whether the Reach would've went with the incest bastard on the IT. 

 

[Lion of the West]

33 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Just cut a deal with Robb and raise House Stark to the same status as House Martell. That way Robb can save face with the Northern lords and you get the Riverlands and North sort of back into the fold.

If you can get Robb onboard with that, sure that might work. But will his bannermen who've been dying and sacrificing their own kin for Robb's crown be satisfied with only a "fake crown"? I don't think they would be very happy with it so it would require a certain degree of political adeptness which I personally never saw from Robb's direction.

25 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

Considering the fact that he could have Renly assassinated at any time he could have relinquished his claim, finish the war in shot order and then get rid of Renly. 

That could indeed have been a plan. But one which I for one don't think that Stannis would have been able to hatch, and we don't know if the Tyrells would allow Stannis to live long enough for Stannis to go through with said plan.

7 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

You don't think Robb would have bent the knee at that point gladly?  I do, between getting Sansa back, and having the rightful heir of Robert in place ready to help end the war I don't see any reason he wouldn't have.  Stannis at that point also was a great house controlling Storms End and the Stormlands.  It seems likely Dorne would also have continued to pay homage to the most powerful house, if in name only.  That gives Stannis the North, the Riverlands, the Crownlands, the Stormlands, and Dorne.  With Kings Landing not under siege by land or Sea, the city would not have starved either.  The city would be happy to not be starving anymore, and the Tyrells would have a huge decision on their hands.

No, I think that Robb would have wanted his crown and his little realm. Robb was perfectly capable of facing down the Greatjon in Winterfell but by alol accounts happily went along with the scheme to make him a king. There's no doubt in my mind that the crown was a more choice thing than Sansa or getting a biological king on the Iron Throne. For if Robb really wanted Sansa back, he could have traded her for Jaime. He didn't want to because holding Jamie captive was more important than getting Sansa back. At the council when Robb became king, he could have pushed for either Stannis or Renly if getting a biological Baratheon on the throne was a main concern for him, but it wasn't as he rather took the rote of making himself king.

Thus there is no way that I can see where Stannis can get Robb's support without either accepting a sundered realm or by first accepting it and then break his word most foul. Neither are something I can see Stannis actually doing.

Also I'm pretty sure that the food for King's Landing does not come from the Riverlands or Stormlands. As I read it, it came from the Reach which is cut off by the Tyrells who made themselves Stannis' enemies after Stannis had Renly assassinated, and the Tyrells responded by killing or imprisoning a bunch of Stannis fans among their ranks before setting off to find the Lannisters and join their case.

[Michael Snyder]

1. Stannis would "legitimize" his claim with the seizure of King's Landing and the death of Joffrey and Tommen. As the senior member of House Baratheon, the Storm Lands owed him loyalty, though the Storm Lands were not on a level with the North, the Reach or the Wester Lands. The resources of the city (supposedly nearly a million people lived in KL, which would produce an optimal military population of 100,000 men and the weapons and armor production capacity) would be his, and as the crowned King, the minor lords of the Crown Lands and their bannermen would owe him loyalty. That gave him three of the nine primary resource areas of Westeros. Dorne, however, first had been loyal to the Targaryans and Doran wanted nothing of war, which leaves him neutral. The Reach, however, has proclaimed for Joffrey, but if Joffrey is dead, who does Marjorie marry? Are she, Loras (if he doesn't die in battle) and Sansa now hostages? Of the Houses having sons which have a claim on the Throne, there is no one. There is no one left to fight for. Tywin has a cause, with the death (probably) of his daughter and his "grandsons", but he stands alone against Robb and Stannis, as the Vale is also neutral and the River Lands have either followed the marriage alliance with the Starks or acclaimed Robb as King. So you have the Lannisters facing a two way fight with the Starks and the Baratheons, basically a five on one in resource areas. Tywin is too smart to put his House at risk, which leaves Robb and Stannis. Stannis won't accept a rival, so Robb either bends the knee (which his own lords won't allow) or the war goes on. But there's a wildcard. I doubt Petyr Baelish is going to serve or survive Stannis, so he flees to the Vale. Does that mean he brings the Vale into the war against Stannis on the side of Robb? And who would Tywin, Ohlenna and Doran support in the end if Robb is winning? Could Tywin patch up things with the Starks? Or with Stannis who killed his "grandsons" who were not. Could he publically admit that Cersei committed adultery and incest?

2. There is another wildcard and that is Stannis' adherence to the Red God. While some in the South take their belief in the Faith lightly, the Vale is supposedly still a center of the Faith and the Church Militant still exists, simply underground since its suppression. Do we now have all the fanaticism of a religious war? Would KL and the Crown Lands reject Stannis once they see him as the avatar of an alien faith? Would the Storm Lands? Would this be a rallying point for the Andals, around the Faith and the succession would slip into the background until the religious questions were resolved? I doubt Stannis could succeed, even with mercenaries bought with the plundered wealth of KL, in conquering Westeros. I am not sure who would step forward to lead the Andals, but Dorne would probably still stay neutral and then an alliance of Faith which would be beyond the control of Petyr Baelish, Lady Ohlenna or Lord Tywin might drown the Great Houses in blood.

[aryagonnakill#2]

18 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Wouldn't he risk losing the respect and loyalty of his lords if he knelt at that point?

IMHO Over all it would be a solid move on RObb's part but getting his bannermen to approve might be tricky.

Maybe some like the GreatJon would be disappointed, but the more intelligent moderate lords would be happy to end the war.  Not all of them are bloodthirsty savages.  In that situation Robb could allow Karstark to execute Jaime, surely that would make him happy.  The Riverlords would simply be happy to have an end in sight to the war.  Manderly and Mormont simply don't seem the types to argue with Robb on it.  Dustin and Rsywell aren't even there, Bolton is off with another segment of the army.  Only Umber would argue.

If your talking about respect after the fact, once the war is over and most lords are loyal, they would have to nurse those displeasures quietly because they would be in no position to do anything about it.

8 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

If you can get Robb onboard with that, sure that might work. But will his bannermen who've been dying and sacrificing their own kin for Robb's crown be satisfied with only a "fake crown"? I don't think they would be very happy with it so it would require a certain degree of political adeptness which I personally never saw from Robb's direction.

That could indeed have been a plan. But one which I for one don't think that Stannis would have been able to hatch, and we don't know if the Tyrells would allow Stannis to live long enough for Stannis to go through with said plan.

No, I think that Robb would have wanted his crown and his little realm. Robb was perfectly capable of facing down the Greatjon in Winterfell but by alol accounts happily went along with the scheme to make him a king. There's no doubt in my mind that the crown was a more choice thing than Sansa or getting a biological king on the Iron Throne. For if Robb really wanted Sansa back, he could have traded her for Jaime. He didn't want to because holding Jamie captive was more important than getting Sansa back. At the council when Robb became king, he could have pushed for either Stannis or Renly if getting a biological Baratheon on the throne was a main concern for him, but it wasn't as he rather took the rote of making himself king.

Thus there is no way that I can see where Stannis can get Robb's support without either accepting a sundered realm or by first accepting it and then break his word most foul. Neither are something I can see Stannis actually doing.

Also I'm pretty sure that the food for King's Landing does not come from the Riverlands or Stormlands. As I read it, it came from the Reach which is cut off by the Tyrells who made themselves Stannis' enemies after Stannis had Renly assassinated, and the Tyrells responded by killing or imprisoning a bunch of Stannis fans among their ranks before setting off to find the Lannisters and join their case.

I agree the Tyrells would be an issue but as I stated above I just don't get your position on Robb and the north, and certainly think the Riverlands and North should not be lumped together if that is your belief.

[Ylath's Snout]

9 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

I don't think they would be very happy with it so it would require a certain degree of political adeptness which I personally never saw from Robb's direction.

Nope, but I bet getting a share of plunder from the Rock would soothe a lot of grumble-cakes.

[Lion of the West]

15 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I agree the Tyrells would be an issue but as I stated above I just don't get your position on Robb and the north, and certainly think the Riverlands and North should not be lumped together if that is your belief.

In this case I don't see why the North and Riverlands shouldn't be lumped together. They have the same king, they are allies and the Great Houses of North and Riverlands share the same family blood in their veins. I see no major split or rift between these two regions that would justify not lumping them together.

15 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Nope, but I bet getting a share of plunder from the Rock would soothe a lot of grumble-cakes.

Could be that the Northmen can be bought but given how many people would be involved in getting a share I'm not sure that each individual share would be so great, especially since the king himself would likely carter off a lion's share (pun not intended).

[Giant Ice Spider]

18 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

Considering the fact that he could have Renly assassinated at any time he could have relinquished his claim, finish the war in shot order and then get rid of Renly. 

What if Renly got a child by Margaery before the war ended?