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Why did George give daenerys everything


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1 hour ago, The Pink Letter said:

Do you expect them to volunteer?  Taking them against their will is the only way to remove them from the depraved life they would have under their slave-owning parents.  Changing them for the better will be an impossible task without taking them away from the influence of their slaver parents.  

Slavery is not going to end unless it is forcefully ended.  And yeah, Daenerys knows better because she knows slavery is wrong and she willing to do something about it.  These children may know it's wrong deep down inside but they will never be allowed to think outside the box of slaving unless removed from that hellish mentality that their parents live by.  

Taking the children from their parents is a good strategy.  I believe we will see the positive fruits of the decision to spare their lives in the future.  Part of the benefits of fostering is exposing the children to a different way of life.  A life without slavery in this scenario.  Sparing their lives shows a respect for life.  It was an act of mercy.  One day in the future these children of the slave owners may come to the same respect and realize how wrong their parents were.  There are no certainties and some of the children may not buy into the spirit of freedom-for-all but at least they were given a chance to embrace the positive change of freedom.  If they should grow up to support slavery then they have chosen to become the enemies of freedom and will have to be dealt with accordingly.  But at least they were given a chance to change.

Daenerys isn’t teaching them about slavery is the point though. If she had taken them with the intent of teaching them about the importance of humanitarian laws and that slavery is wrong it would be a totally different situation. However she took them with the intent to murder them if the killings didn’t stop.

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59 minutes ago, Firefae said:

Being beautiful isn't always a good thing in this story, it can lead to women being objected and getting unwanted attention from creeps.

And he hasn't made her queen in the end( y'know, because he hasn't written te ending yet). Dany has struggled a lot to get to where she is now. She has earned her leadership, it hasn't been handed to her on a silver platter. To dismiss it as Martin just giving her everything  ignores a lot of what her arc is about.

Furthermore on the beautiful aspect the majority of woman characters GRRM creates in this story are all beautiful. Only main one I can think of that’s not is Brienne who is a total badass.

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53 minutes ago, Starkz said:

Furthermore on the beautiful aspect the majority of woman characters GRRM creates in this story are all beautiful. Only main one I can think of that’s not is Brienne who is a total badass.

That is not so - Cat is pretty, and Lysa was pretty in her youth. Selyse is ugly, Shireen, too, most of the Freys are, too. Arya isn't seen as pretty, Margaery, too, is just pretty, not beautiful. Asha is no great beauty, either.

The only stunning women in ASoIaF are Cersei, Daenerys, Val, and (as a woman in the making) Sansa. Arianne is a beauty, too, but not in the traditional sense. Shae is pretty, Ellaria has charisma but is no great beauty, and so on.

 

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37 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That is not so - Cat is pretty, and Lysa was pretty in her youth. Selyse is ugly, Shireen, too, most of the Freys are, too. Arya isn't seen as pretty, Margaery, too, is just pretty, not beautiful. Asha is no great beauty, either.

The only stunning women in ASoIaF are Cersei, Daenerys, Val, and (as a woman in the making) Sansa. Arianne is a beauty, too, but not in the traditional sense. Shae is pretty, Ellaria has charisma but is no great beauty, and so on.

 

Jeyne Poole, all the spearwives aren't beautiful, they're pretty in a way, Ygritte herself was no beauty in Jon's the first time they met(he did start to appreciate their looks when they began their quite frankly  toxic relationship) Gily, old nan, Osha. Oh the Mormont women, aren't described as particularly pretty. 

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3 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Jeyne Poole, all the spearwives aren't beautiful, they're pretty in a way, Ygritte herself was no beauty in Jon's the first time they met(he did start to appreciate their looks when they began their quite frankly  toxic relationship) Gily, old nan, Osha. Oh the Mormont women, aren't described as particularly pretty. 

Ygritte is indeed no beauty. That Jon starts to like her looks is really his hormones kicking in. You can really see it when the sex is getting to him ;-).

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is not so - Cat is pretty, and Lysa was pretty in her youth. Selyse is ugly, Shireen, too, most of the Freys are, too. Arya isn't seen as pretty, Margaery, too, is just pretty, not beautiful. Asha is no great beauty, either.

The only stunning women in ASoIaF are Cersei, Daenerys, Val, and (as a woman in the making) Sansa. Arianne is a beauty, too, but not in the traditional sense. Shae is pretty, Ellaria has charisma but is no great beauty, and so on.

 

Arya is said to look like Lyanna whom a war was started over. Lyanna was beautiful and when Arya gets older she too will probably be but only time can tell. Pretty and beautiful are rather the same thing so I’m not sure what you’re getting at by saying some characters are beautiful and some are pretty. I suppose if you’re trying to start a spectrum some character might rank lower in the beautiful rankings but that doesn’t mean they’re not or that there is a shortage. The “stunning women” you noted are just your opinion of who are at the top of your spectrum. Majority of the main woman characters GRRM creates are made as beautiful/pretty and considered such. I don’t doubt for a second that there isnt always one somewhere that will be more beautiful than the next.

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Ygritte is indeed no beauty. That Jon starts to like her looks is really his hormones kicking in. You can really see it when the sex is getting to him ;-).

Being beautiful to someone has more to do with than just looks.

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1 hour ago, Starkz said:

Arya is said to look like Lyanna whom a war was started over. Lyanna was beautiful and when Arya gets older she too will probably be but only time can tell.

I actually do wonder about the talk of Lyanna's beauty; I've an inclination that it is being over exaggerated post-rebellion(why else would two great men fight over her, most people would ask, Ned loved her, and Robert romantizes everything from that time) ; I mean we are shown Arys Karstsrk who looks like an older version of Arya Karstark and were given no whispers of great looking the girl is; hell she's near the same age of Lyanna when she died. 

4 hours ago, Starkz said:

Daenerys isn’t teaching them about slavery is the point though. If she had taken them with the intent of teaching them about the importance of humanitarian laws and that slavery is wrong it would be a totally different situation. However she took them with the intent to murder them if the killings didn’t stop.

That's a pretty thing to do for those in power to insure the obedience in her setting no?  Jon took hostages from the wildlings to insure their parents obedience and was expected to destroy them should wildlings go rogue once past the wall-there's no talk of making sure these kids learn the bad ideas in thir culture are unacceptable south of the wall(kidnapping women to have as wives for instance).

Ned would be expected to take Theon's head pressumably should the Ironborn act up again while the boy was in his care.

I have no real criticism for her for taking hostages. 

 

1 hour ago, Starkz said:
3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

Being beautiful to someone has more to do with than just looks.

True. Ygritte was also his first sexual partner and only girl he's had a romantic(but toxic). Prior to having been forced to couple with her under threat of death she was average in looks at best in his eyes.  @Lord Varys got right of it when he said the girl was Jon's Drogo.But I have to say at least Drogo asked Daenarys if she desired to have sex before they actually did it the first time. Ygritte demanded Jon lay with her outright(knowing he didn't want to), under the clear ultimatum should he not he will be murdered.

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1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I actually do wonder about the talk of Lyanna's beauty; I've an inclination that it is being over exaggerated post-rebellion.

That's a pretty thing to do for those in power to insure the obedience in her setting no?  Jon took hostages from the wildlings to insure their parents obedience and was expected to destroy them should wildlings go rogue once past the wall-there's no talk of making sure these kids learn the bad ideas in thir culture are unacceptable south of the wall(kidnapping women to have as wives for instance).

Ned would be expected to take Theon's head pressumably should the Ironborn act up again while the boy was in his care.

I have no real criticism for her for taking hostages. 

Lyanna was definitely beautiful for a war to be sparked over here thinking otherwise is ludicrous. Rheager could of had any women and Robert didn’t have to start a war over her or fantasize and wish she was with him for the rest of his life when he has Cersei who is described by a mast variety of characters to be beautiful.

Why are you comparing Jon taking hostages to Dany taking hostages? The two have little to no correlation. The Wildlings wanted to come beyond the Wall and why does Jon have to change the kids cultures?  A Wildling man steals his wife and if he mistreats her or is bad to her she can leave him or kill him from what I understand. GRRM doesn’t exactly go into the particulars of it but none of the Free Folk seem to be complaining about it or trying to implement change.

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1 hour ago, Starkz said:

Lyanna was definitely beautiful for a war to be sparked over here thinking otherwise is ludicrous. Rheager could of had any women and Robert didn’t have to start a war over her or fantasize and wish she was with him for the rest of his life when he has Cersei who is described by a mast variety of characters to be beautiful.

We don't know why Rheagar was interested in her-Rheagar could have had other women, he chose Lyana; that does mean he did be because he thought she was the most aesthetically pleasing-could be her personality(I personally like the theory of him having discovered to be the knight of the laughing tree-showing very much to be all together different from any of the women Rheagar has ever met).

Robert didn't really start a war over her-he only started the rebellion after Aerys issued a death warrant against Robert.

Robert idealizes things during that period. Lyanna in particular we see this when he says Lyanna would approve of him participating in his own tournament for instance.  It's very possible Robert  is committing the same sin in regards to remembering what she looked like aesthetically.    

1 hour ago, Starkz said:

Why are you comparing Jon taking hostages to Dany taking hostages? The two have little to no correlation.

I also compared Dany taking hostages to Ned's taking Theon hostage.

1 hour ago, Starkz said:

The Wildlings wanted to come beyond the Wall and why does Jon have to change the kids cultures?

I did not say he had to-he like Daenarys however are using them as collateral. This is a perfectly acceptable thing given his position in his setting. I will not criticize Jon as taking the wildling children hostage nor Ned for having Theon as a hostage. 

1 hour ago, Starkz said:

A Wildling man steals his wife and if he mistreats her or is bad to her she can leave him or kill him from what I understand. 

The members of that tribe would likely put the wife down if she killed her husband no? The woman just murdered their son/ brother/cousin/friend etc. If a woman is too afraid to do just that Ygritte would call her a coward of course-much as she calls the people who flee their homes when her and her people come, cowards for not defending their stuff.  And honestly, a lot of these stealings would be violent to the point the female in question would not rebel purely out of self-preserveation-Jon literally helps kill the two males Ygritte was around, and she makes very clear yep that's totally qualifies as a stealing-can you imagine the terror the typical woman who was kidnapped south of the wall would feels when shes taken by a killer to the hell that is north of the wall? Do you think most of them are staying there because they're fond of the man who helped murder/murder her friends and/or family? 

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7 hours ago, The Pink Letter said:

Do you expect them to volunteer?  Taking them against their will is the only way to remove them from the depraved life they would have under their slave-owning parents.  Changing them for the better will be an impossible task without taking them away from the influence of their slaver parents.  

Slavery is not going to end unless it is forcefully ended.  And yeah, Daenerys knows better because she knows slavery is wrong and she willing to do something about it.  These children may know it's wrong deep down inside but they will never be allowed to think outside the box of slaving unless removed from that hellish mentality that their parents live by.  

Taking the children from their parents is a good strategy.  I believe we will see the positive fruits of the decision to spare their lives in the future.  Part of the benefits of fostering is exposing the children to a different way of life.  A life without slavery in this scenario.  Sparing their lives shows a respect for life.  It was an act of mercy.  One day in the future these children of the slave owners may come to the same respect and realize how wrong their parents were.  There are no certainties and some of the children may not buy into the spirit of freedom-for-all but at least they were given a chance to embrace the positive change of freedom.  If they should grow up to support slavery then they have chosen to become the enemies of freedom and will have to be dealt with accordingly.  But at least they were given a chance to change.

The little devils should be given a chance to change.  It is just possible many can .  It's too late for the parents but their children may yet be saved.  It cannot hurt to try.  

The Starks butchered the Warg King and took his daughters for wives.  Orys Baratheon killed Durandon and married his daughter.  The children of an enemy can become a friend.  It is not impossible.  That his how peace are built after conflict.  Trying to build this relationship is a much better way of thinking than that garbage philosophy of the Sand Snakes about getting even.  I prefer trying to build peace this way to that "the north remembers" trash being pushed around by the north.   Enemies can't become friends with the northern kind of thinking.  "The north remembers" culture of revenge doesn't lead to anything good.  

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This topic has gone far afield.  While I do agree with Lord Varys about where this story is going overall; I also think @Free Northman Reborn hit the nail on the head.  Ned Stark, in the first book, proved (inadvertently) the corruption of the Nights Watch vows.  Look at the Nights Watch, or the Kingsgaurd, their vows have never kept them true to their cause.  My personal opinion, is that Martin has tricked a great many readers (partly because it has been 20 years and probably 4000 pages) with Ned’s demise.  Most see him as naive at best, or stupid; even though he keeps getting brought up in a positive manner book after book.  It’s his love, mercy, honor, among other traits; traits that Jon emulates from a man he nearly worships, that will win the day.

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59 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

We don't know why Rheagar was interested in her-Rheagar could have had other women, he chose Lyana; that does mean he did be because he thought she was the most aesthetically pleasing-could be her personality(I personally like the theory of him having discovered to be the knight of the laughing tree-showing very much to be all together different from any of the women Rheagar has ever met).

Robert didn't really start a war over her-he only started the rebellion after Aerys issued a death warrant against Robert.

Robert idealizes things during that period. Lyanna in particular we see this when he says Lyanna would approve of him participating in his own tournament for instance.  It's very possible Robert  is committing the same sin in regards to remembering what she looked like aesthetically.    

I also compared Dany taking hostages to Ned's taking Theon hostage.

I did not say he had to-he like Daenarys however are using them as collateral. This is a perfectly acceptable thing given his position in his setting. I will not criticize Jon as taking the wildling children hostage nor Ned for having Theon as a hostage. 

The members of that tribe would likely put the wife down if she killed her husband no? The woman just murdered their son/ brother/cousin/friend etc. If a woman is too afraid to do just that Ygritte would call her a coward of course-much as she calls the people who flee their homes when her and her people come, cowards for not defending their stuff.  And honestly, a lot of these stealings would be violent to the point the female in question would not rebel purely out of self-preserveation-Jon literally helps kill the two males Ygritte was around, and she makes very clear yep that's totally qualifies as a stealing-can you imagine the terror the typical woman who was kidnapped south of the wall would feels when shes taken by a killer to the hell that is north of the wall? Do you think most of them are staying there because they're fond of the man who helped murder/murder her friends and/or family? 

My point is your comparing apples and oranges. Dany taking hostages has nothing to do with Jon or Ned taking hostages. Rheager and Robert both loved the same woman. Believing/thinking she wasn’t beautiful is ridiculous and rather far reaching and why someone would is beyond me. She had two men love her, two powerful men, simple as that. They were attracted to her and attraction is attributed to looks, therein she was beautiful.

We can only ponder and speculate what the Wildling culture is like in regards to marriage. It seems to be an unspoken law that a man has to take his woman from far away, perhaps the “law” also says a woman is free to leave her man if he mistreats her, Ygritte seemed to think so and I imagine the majority of the Wildling woman feel the same.  Also looking at it from the Wildling male perspective after all the hard work of stealing a woman are they really going to mistreat her? Not to mention how did Dalla and Mance meet? He didn’t “steal” her did he? He meant her on his way back from Winterfell. Also if I remember correctly Val seems to suggest Jon could steal her so it does seem to be synonymous between the two parties at times. Not to mention the arranged marriages south of the wall aren’t much different from what the Wildlings do except it seems to be implied that a woman can leave her man if not treated right.

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1 hour ago, Starkz said:

My point is your comparing apples and oranges. Dany taking hostages has nothing to do with Jon or Ned taking hostages

It's not apples and oranges-They are all  doing the exact same thing-taking the children of people they have reason to worry about to insure the potential trouble makers act appropriately.

This is perfectly acceptable for those in power to do in their setting, it's not something worth critising them for.

1 hour ago, Starkz said:

Rheager and Robert both loved the same woman. Believing/thinking she wasn’t beautiful is ridiculous and rather far reaching and why someone would is beyond me. 

Robert obviously became infatuated with Lyanna. We do not know if Rheagar loved Lyanna or if he merely recognized her as merely the woman most appropriate to bear his children because of her peculiar nature. 

I make no claim that she wasn't beautiful; I merely point out its a real possibility her looks were over-exaggerated post-kidnapping. 

1 hour ago, Starkz said:

We can only ponder and speculate what the Wildling culture is like in regards to marriage.

This doesn't seem true. Marriage beyond the wall is discussed pretty thoroughly.

1 hour ago, Starkz said:

It seems to be an unspoken law that a man has to take his woman from far away, perhaps the “law” also says a woman is free to leave her man if he mistreats her, Ygritte seemed to think so and I imagine the majority of the Wildling woman feel the same.  Also looking at it from the Wildling male perspective after all the hard work of stealing a woman are they really going to mistreat her?

Yeah, the woman can probably  try to leave-but  the man could try to bring her back as well obviously(women are a valueble resource after all-the tribe must keep up its numbers else it becomes small and weak),if he sufficiently beats her into submission than she would get little pity from the likes of wilings like Ygritte-who doesn't give the option of abused wives just leaving-she just says to slit the guy's throat(because obviously the guy won't just let her go). 

From the wildling raider's perspective after all the hard work he's done to get his new wife is he really going to care to be gentle? Do you think the women kidnapped south of the wall  when their new "husband tries to fuck them they'll care if the woman struggles or says no they would just let them go? The guy is from a might makes right culture-if you're too weak to defend yourself you deserve it(ex.Ygritte mocking the people who fled their homes rather than be butchered by her and her friends), and shouldn't cry about it.

1 hour ago, Starkz said:

Also if I remember correctly Val seems to suggest Jon could steal her so it does seem to be synonymous between the two parties at times.

It could be consentual between two parties-it does not have to be-I'm sure you would concede at least the woman stolen south of the wall doesn't to be with the killer who murdered her friends/and or relatives?  

1 hour ago, Starkz said:

Not to mention the arranged marriages south of the wall aren’t much different from what the Wildlings do except it seems to be implied that a woman can leave her man if not treated right.

As far as I know there is no explicit law within the seven kingdoms that forbids wives from leaving their husbands-there is a risk to it yes, but not much of a risk for a wife beyond the wall, her husband if he takes her from a warring tribe has no legal protections.

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6 hours ago, Starkz said:

Arya is said to look like Lyanna whom a war was started over. Lyanna was beautiful and when Arya gets older she too will probably be but only time can tell.

Lyanna apparently looked very interesting and had a strong effect on two important men, but she wasn't beautiful by the traditional standards of Westeros.

6 hours ago, Starkz said:

Pretty and beautiful are rather the same thing so I’m not sure what you’re getting at by saying some characters are beautiful and some are pretty. I suppose if you’re trying to start a spectrum some character might rank lower in the beautiful rankings but that doesn’t mean they’re not or that there is a shortage.

No, this is indeed a question of concepts. George uses 'pretty' or 'comely' when a woman is not as gorgeous as those who are truly beautiful. And he also uses the word 'homely' more than once, referring to a woman or man who doesn't exactly look good.

The same with 'handsome' - this is not as strong as beautiful. Jaime is described as beautiful. Other good-looking men are merely 'handsome'. And so on.

6 hours ago, Starkz said:

The “stunning women” you noted are just your opinion of who are at the top of your spectrum. Majority of the main woman characters GRRM creates are made as beautiful/pretty and considered such. I don’t doubt for a second that there isnt always one somewhere that will be more beautiful than the next.

Main point mainly was that there is a considerable number who isn't all that beautiful. And in many of the descriptions we get also shortcomings mentioned. But the way Cersei, Sansa, and Dany are described they clearly seem to be women/girls in whose presence people really have to deal with their stunning beauty before they can do what they came for.

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27 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But the way Cersei, Sansa, and Dany are described they clearly seem to be women/girls in whose presence people really have to deal with their stunning beauty before they can do what they came for.

It's a good point.

I would still include Lyanna in that group, because of the effect she has on people (mostly men) - not because of her physical appearance so much as everything else that makes up beauty: charm, animation, attitude. It's notable that Robert is disappointed with her statue even though it was almost certainly carved by someone who knew her well. The statue was lifeless, and that made all  the difference.

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10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is not so - Cat is pretty, and Lysa was pretty in her youth. Selyse is ugly, Shireen, too, most of the Freys are, too. Arya isn't seen as pretty, Margaery, too, is just pretty, not beautiful. Asha is no great beauty, either.

The only stunning women in ASoIaF are Cersei, Daenerys, Val, and (as a woman in the making) Sansa. Arianne is a beauty, too, but not in the traditional sense. Shae is pretty, Ellaria has charisma but is no great beauty, and so on.

 

George RR Martin would strongely disagree :P. He once stated that from all the women in Westeros he created, Ariane is the most beautiful and the hottest of them all. But beauty is a matter of taste, so no point to argue about that I guess. 

Before I watched GOT, I pictured Margaery Tyrell as a good looking girl, but not a beauty. Since she was played by Natalie Dormer, I only envision her as Natalie when I read about her, and now she is the best looking girl in whole Westeros for me :D.

 

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16 hours ago, Firefae said:

Being beautiful isn't always a good thing in this story, it can lead to women being objected and getting unwanted attention from creeps.

And he hasn't made her queen in the end( y'know, because he hasn't written te ending yet). Dany has struggled a lot to get to where she is now. She has earned her leadership, it hasn't been handed to her on a silver platter. To dismiss it as Martin just giving her everything  ignores a lot of what her arc is about.

Well she worshiped everywhere she goes. Why is that? I just don't understand. Why he'd do that. I mean that made her queen at the end/beginning of a clash of kings. 

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3 minutes ago, manchester_babe said:

Well she worshiped everywhere she goes. Why is that? I just don't understand. Why he'd do that. I mean that made her queen at the end/beginning of a clash of kings. 

No. The Dothraki follow her for her leadership qualities. It is never said they follow her because of her beauty.

And she isn't 'worshipped' everywhere she goes. There are a lot of people who are against her and her rule.

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1 hour ago, Firefae said:

No. The Dothraki follow her for her leadership qualities. It is never said they follow her because of her beauty.

And she isn't 'worshipped' everywhere she goes. There are a lot of people who are against her and her rule.

The Dorthraki she has follow her because she has dragons. The sellswords aka Daario followed her because of her looks.

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6 hours ago, Springwatch said:

It's a good point.

I would still include Lyanna in that group, because of the effect she has on people (mostly men) - not because of her physical appearance so much as everything else that makes up beauty: charm, animation, attitude. It's notable that Robert is disappointed with her statue even though it was almost certainly carved by someone who knew her well. The statue was lifeless, and that made all  the difference.

Not to mention Ashara and Arianne. And Cersei one of the most beautiful women seems to be threatened by Margarey whom many regard as beautiful/pretty.

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