Why did George give daenerys everything

[Starkz]

1 minute ago, Silver Bullet 1985 said:

Fair enough.  I do take as fact that George R. R. Martin made a comment (because I remember watching an interview on youtube) that he would have fought against the Nazis.  I think it is more than a fair assumption that he would also fight against the slave owners if he were a character in the story.  I would.  I would fight on Dany's team against the slave owners.  I would also fight against the Nazis if I had been alive back then.  I am also going to support the statement that the war against the slave owners is the most justified use of force in the story so far. 

I would hope everyone would of fought against the Nazis and support the emancipation of the slaves. I’d also like to see sadistic Ramsay removed from power and justice to find him.

[Darth Sidious]

14 minutes ago, Starkz said:

Slavers do not do the type of medical experiments the Nazis did. Forced evolution and genealogy isn’t even a thing for them.  

They have their means of inflicting suffering.  The long legged freaks is one clumsy attempt by a master to create tall soldiers.  The maiming of boys to make them good soldiers.  Forcing the trainees to kill puppies and babies.  I could go on.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

I think we could all agree that the Essosi slaves masters and the Nazis are both evil and move on and stop comparing them. 

 

[Clegane'sPup]

17 hours ago, Targaryen Restoration said:

Slavers are worse than Nazis. 

No.

17 hours ago, Silver Bullet 1985 said:

I do take as fact that George R. R. Martin made a comment (because I remember watching an interview on youtube) that he would have fought against the Nazis. 

I asked a previous poster to back up that claim with a reliable source. Didn't happen. Now you are telling me you watched an interview on Youtube. Could you or would you find the source?

17 hours ago, Starkz said:

To all of the people I’m responding to, I’m not saying slavery isn’t a terrible thing but the Nazis were on another level. 

You got blind sided by a few internet tricksters muddling the waters.

______________________

Antisemitism existed before the nazis came to power. Antisemitism with my limited historical knowledge existed as early as1850 about the time that the US had a civil war. Which happened after the European's had killed off a good percentage of the north, south and central american native population.

Nazism was not about slavery. It was about the mass extermination of people they considered to be inferior ---- people of Jewish faith, gypsies, handicapped, homosexuals. the infirm, and non-christian, etc.

In martin's books there are no interment camps nor are there extermination chambers.

Problem is in my opinion, individuals do not want to accept that the human condition is flawed.

Religious people can say the meek will inherit the earth.

Fact is peaceful people are are considered weak and ripe for the picken's.

I don't like Dany's story line because of the difficult names, and the fictional cultures martin wrote. If a person does not believe slavery exists in today's world a person needs to do a bit of research.

 

 

[Hodor the Articulate]

On 9/6/2018 at 11:54 PM, Springwatch said:

I've given reasons too - we're talking past one another. And who said anything about every man falling at her feet?

Yes, but I addressed and rebutted your reasons.

You implied every man was falling at her feet when said she had an " enormous effect on men".

On 9/6/2018 at 11:54 PM, Springwatch said:

Fidelity in love. 15 years later, he's still in love. (Yes, I know what you think.) 

If you know what I think, prove my argument wrong instead of just stating the same thing over and over. You argue that Lyanna's personality made Robert love her. Prove Robert's "love" for Lyanna was not egocentric. Prove Robert would love a strong willed girl.

On 9/6/2018 at 11:54 PM, Springwatch said:

Kraznys acted incredibly stupidly in Dany's presence.  She didn't say anything amazingly clever to achieve this, so we have to say it's either random, unsupported craziness, or that mind-bending, stupefying beauty is indeed a thing in Westeros, to a degree well beyond the impact of smooth, symmetrical features. 

The only measure of beauty that we've got is the sum of the consequences of those irrational acts, done for the beautiful one.

So Dany gets three dragon eggs from Ilyrio, Kraznys loses the control of all Unsullied, Xaro is incredibly generous, Drogo commits to the one thing Dothraki fear - crossing the poison water - and for no personal advantage, just to give a crown to Viserys. 

The sum of that irrationality says that Dany's beauty scores incredibly high. But even Dany's beauty doesn't work on every man, every time.

There's a substantial sum to be calculated for Lyanna, too... 

I think you need to reread that part of the book, because Kraznys didn't fall for Dany's deception because he blinded by her beauty. It was pretty clear he acted out of greed and arrogance.

The other examples you list aren't markers of her beauty either. Ilyrio gives her eggs to keep favor with the powerful (if not Dany and Viserys, then Khal Drogo), Drogo had no immediate plans to attack Westeros until they came after his baby, and Xaro was after Dany's dragons. And I don't know how missed this, but he was also gay, so he clearly wasn't doing anything our of lust or love.

What does give good indication that Dany is a conventionally beautiful is that we are explicitly told that she, and the Targs in general, are beautiful. The Starks, on the other hand, are described as long faced - not unattractive but not conventionally beautiful either. We know of only one man that falls in love with her, and he doesn't come across the type to fall for someone just for their looks.

[Hodor the Articulate]

On 9/6/2018 at 2:50 PM, Starkz said:

The majority of everything she has achieved has been because of dragons. I’m not implying anything, it’s a fact. Different characters would do different things with 3 dragons saying that other characters couldn’t “get to where she did” is ridiculous. Maybe some couldn’t, maybe some would get farther. Could you imagine Tywin with 3 dragons? Stannis with 3 dragons? They would get very very far in their goals.

"...as if any other character could get to where she did if they were just given dragons" doesn't mean no characters could have done what Dany has. It means you've been discounting Dany's wits and hard work, implying anybody could have gone from nothing to "Breaker of Chains" if they also had dragons.

[Starkz]

2 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

"...as if any other character could get to where she did if they were just given dragons" doesn't mean no characters could have done what Dany has. It means you've been discounting Dany's wits and hard work, implying anybody could have gone from nothing to "Breaker of Chains" if they also had dragons.

Anyone COULD go from nothing to something with dragons. I’m not saying it a surefire thing, but it’s possible for everyone. I’m not discounting other things that she’s done, you were implying only Dany could acomplish something meaningful with dragons when that’s not the case at all.

[White Ravens]

Godwin's Law invoked?  Congratulations, team!

[Springwatch]

I don't want to take anything away from Dany as a leader. She takes risks and she wins - that speaks for her judgement enough. None of her advisors or helpers would have made her a conqueror of cities or a liberator of slaves - she did all that herself. Her beauty hasn't gone away though; it has an effect whether she likes it or not.

13 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

I think you need to reread that part of the book, because Kraznys didn't fall for Dany's deception because he blinded by her beauty. It was pretty clear he acted out of greed and arrogance.

Greed and arrogance don't necessarily make you stupid. Rich, powerful men only stay rich and powerful if they don't generally make stupid mistakes, and don't generally give their wealth away without solid prospects of a return. One stupid mistake, or one piece of excessive generosity wouldn't mean anything, but this is a pattern, a pattern of powerful men giving too much, and risking too much.

• Illyrio gives her three dragon eggs. From Jorah's evidence, three dragon eggs would buy all the sellswords necessary to win back the throne for Viserys, but Illyrio is giving the eggs and Dany too; therefore he's overpaying. And he's giving away the insignia that would help his own dragon prince establish his legitimacy. This is bad planning.
  • Illyrio on Dany: "...  so lovely I was tempted to claim her for myself.... Instead, I summoned a bedwarmer and fucked her vigorously until the madness passed...."
• Drogo gains Dany and the eggs, but risks losing everything else. Dothraki abominate the sea, risk losing their home territory, may have big losses fighting in a strange country, and have little to gain (presumably the deal is they don't sack the kingdom). This would test Drogo's leadership to the limit. This is risky.
  • Drogo on Dany: he marries her; calls her 'moon of my life'; possibly he did genuinely allow her full ownership of the eggs.
• Viserys went to rape her before the wedding, putting in jeopardy the entire plan to get back his throne. This is crazy.
• Jorah abandons a workable scheme to get home (as Westerosi spy), and becomes obsessively, crazily dedicated to Dany. This is a bit extreme.
• Xaro champions her in Qarth, gives her a palace to live in, and rich gifts. He wants a dragon, but instead of just taking one, he offers marriage, though he's more interested in men. Even later, at the point of enemity, he comes with more gifts, and a fleet of ships. This is excessively generous.
• Daario decapitates his fellow sellsword leaders. He openly becomes her lover in a very hostile and conservative society that wants her to marry one of their own. This is risky.
• Kraznys gives away all Unsullied with no thought to the obvious hazard. Even though he's an expert on Unsullied. This is stupid.
  • Kraznys on Dany: "Tell her I will lick honey off her breasts, or allow her to lick honey off mine if she prefers."

This is a pattern, and Dany is the common factor. It's not clever arguments on her side, or elaborate schemes, because that's not her style. It could be beauty, or you could call charm or charisma - the effects are very much the same, and I think it's all part of the larger theme of 'the things I do for love', which is not limited to the sexual or romantic, but includes the 'swords' that love Renly and Robert, and parental love, which trumps all else.

Lyanna is a side issue in this thread, we can argue it out in full elsewhere. I don't think she has movie-star good looks, or has all men falling at her feet. I do think she has this quality of beauty, charm, charisma, whatever. I do think Rhaegar abandoned his kingdom to ruin because he was 'crazy in love' - and she for him, and Robert  for her... but we'll argue this another time.

 

[Targaryen Restoration]

On 9/8/2018 at 2:52 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

No.

I asked a previous poster to back up that claim with a reliable source. Didn't happen. Now you are telling me you watched an interview on Youtube. Could you or would you find the source?

You got blind sided by a few internet tricksters muddling the waters.

______________________

Antisemitism existed before the nazis came to power. Antisemitism with my limited historical knowledge existed as early as1850 about the time that the US had a civil war. Which happened after the European's had killed off a good percentage of the north, south and central american native population.

Nazism was not about slavery. It was about the mass extermination of people they considered to be inferior ---- people of Jewish faith, gypsies, handicapped, homosexuals. the infirm, and non-christian, etc.

In martin's books there are no interment camps nor are there extermination chambers.

Problem is in my opinion, individuals do not want to accept that the human condition is flawed.

Religious people can say the meek will inherit the earth.

Fact is peaceful people are are considered weak and ripe for the picken's.

I don't like Dany's story line because of the difficult names, and the fictional cultures martin wrote. If a person does not believe slavery exists in today's world a person needs to do a bit of research.

 

 

 

Here is one of those interviews.  I can't say this is the one Night Train meant but it is clear George Martin would fight against the Nazis.  

I love Daenerys' story line more than any other.  The Ghiscari names lend an exotic flavor to her adventures in Slaver's Bay.  

 

[Targaryen Restoration]

On 9/7/2018 at 8:56 PM, Silver Bullet 1985 said:

 

 

 

They're both awful people.  The slave masters have been taking people's freedom and lives for far longer than the Nazis though.  And they would continue to do this unless they are stopped.  I would not support Stannis in the battle for Winterfell.  I do not feel the results justify the cost.  But I do support Daenerys Targaryen's battle for freedom because if there is a cause worthy of risking life for it is to help enslaved people become free.

Admins, please do not lock this thread.  The comments on both sides of the argument are getting aggressive but please be fair.  Do not take sides. 

On 9/7/2018 at 9:22 PM, Silver Bullet 1985 said:

Fair enough.  I do take as fact that George R. R. Martin made a comment (because I remember watching an interview on youtube) that he would have fought against the Nazis.  I think it is more than a fair assumption that he would also fight against the slave owners if he were a character in the story.  I would.  I would fight on Dany's team against the slave owners.  I would also fight against the Nazis if I had been alive back then.  I am also going to support the statement that the war against the slave owners is the most justified use of force in the story so far. 

[Clegane'sPup]

1 hour ago, Targaryen Restoration said:

Here is one of those interviews.  I can't say this is the one Night Train meant but it is clear George Martin would fight against the Nazis.  

Thank you for taking the time to bring forth a very interesting WSJ interview.

1 hour ago, Targaryen Restoration said:

I love Daenerys' story line more than any other.  The Ghiscari names lend an exotic flavor to her adventures in Slaver's Bay.  

Okay.

Edit: Was there talk in this interview about martin speaking or thinking he would fight the Nzs? My sons suggested that I not buy the video game. Were there Nzs in the video game?

[300 H&H Magnum]

23 hours ago, Starkz said:

Anyone COULD go from nothing to something with dragons. I’m not saying it a surefire thing, but it’s possible for everyone. I’m not discounting other things that she’s done, you were implying only Dany could acomplish something meaningful with dragons when that’s not the case at all.

It is possible for some people but not most.  Dany also had a lot of terrific character traits that allowed her to turn a bad marriage into something from which she could gain an advantage from.   Most people would not even have gotten to the point where they could hatch the dragon eggs.  The average 13 year old girl would not have had the strength to survive life with the Dothraki and adapt the way Dany did.  Dany not only managed to survive the Dothraki, she found a way to thrive among them.  

 

[300 H&H Magnum]

On 9/7/2018 at 8:47 PM, Starkz said:

Nazis were in power less than a decade and caused more death and destruction than any slavers have. 

We have no idea how many people perished because of thousands of years of the Ghiscari practicing slavery.  It will be in the millions because of the length of time slavery was practiced.  

[300 H&H Magnum]

4 hours ago, Targaryen Restoration said:

 

Here is one of those interviews.  I can't say this is the one Night Train meant but it is clear George Martin would fight against the Nazis.  

I love Daenerys' story line more than any other.  The Ghiscari names lend an exotic flavor to her adventures in Slaver's Bay.  

 

Well done.  This is not the only interview where the topic was brought up.  I will post a link if I should happen to come across the other interview.  

[Starkz]

9 hours ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

It is possible for some people but not most.  Dany also had a lot of terrific character traits that allowed her to turn a bad marriage into something from which she could gain an advantage from.   Most people would not even have gotten to the point where they could hatch the dragon eggs.  The average 13 year old girl would not have had the strength to survive life with the Dothraki and adapt the way Dany did.  Dany not only managed to survive the Dothraki, she found a way to thrive among them.  

 

Give most people 3 dragons and they can do quite a bit, or rather whatever they desire. Dany did adapt well to Drogo and riding a horse around all the time which was a big change from her prior life.

[Clegane'sPup]

19 hours ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

Well done.  This is not the only interview where the topic was brought up.  I will post a link if I should happen to come across the other interview.  

I just listened to the interview again. It was an interesting interview. The nzs topic was not brought up. Perhaps I need to buy one of the products that cleans the wax outta my ears.

19 hours ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

The average 13 year old girl would not have had the strength to survive life with the Dothraki and adapt the way Dany did.  Dany not only managed to survive the Dothraki, she found a way to thrive among them.  

Yes,

On one hand Dany is sold off by her brother to a Khal with the expectation that her brother would in return get an army. Hello, she was sold. Dress it up anyway you want to she was sold off by her brother.

The character survived her ordeal. If the fossilized (?) dragon eggs did not hatch Mhysa, the mother of dragons would not have any negotiable power.

19 hours ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

We have no idea how many people perished because of thousands of years of the Ghiscari practicing slavery.  It will be in the millions because of the length of time slavery was practiced.  

Does that have an impact on the ASOIAF story?

No, I think it does not.

Most writers release the extra material after they tie up the loose ends and finish the story.

There are two free ranging immature dragons flapping round. living in separate hidey holes. They are being fed (offerings) on a regular basis.

Drogon intervened and took Dany off to the waste lands where she is shitting and puking herself. Drogon barely heeds her commands. So, when she shows up back at Meeren do you think that the two free range dragons are suddenly gonna come purring at her command?

The players in ASOIAF want her dragons. Some want them dead. Some want the live. The fire breathing dragons are Daenerys' power.

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys I      Dany said nothing. Magister Illyrio was a dealer in spices, gemstones, dragonbone, and other, less savory things. He had friends in all of the Nine Free Cities, it was said, and even beyond, in Vaes Dothrak and the fabled lands beside the Jade Sea. It was also said that he'd never had a friend he wouldn't cheerfully sell for the right price. Dany listened to the talk in the streets, and she heard these things, but she knew better than to question her brother when he wove his webs of dream. His anger was a terrible thing when roused. Viserys called it "waking the dragon."   Her brother hung the gown beside the door. "Illyrio will send the slaves to bathe you.

Americans like to make slavery about Caucasian and African heritage. My take on it is, the many cultures that make up this world practice slavery in one form or another.

The Barbary slave trade refers to the slave markets that were lucrative and vast on the Barbary Coast of North Africa, which included the Ottoman provinces of Algeria, Tunisia and Tripolitania and the independent sultanate of Morocco, between the 16th and middle of the 18th century.

Edit: Before jumping on me, I just gave a summary taken from wiki ^ above of Slaver's Bay.

 

 

 

[Hodor the Articulate]

On 9/11/2018 at 1:45 AM, Springwatch said:

Greed and arrogance don't necessarily make you stupid. Rich, powerful men only stay rich and powerful if they don't generally make stupid mistakes, and don't generally give their wealth away without solid prospects of a return. One stupid mistake, or one piece of excessive generosity wouldn't mean anything, but this is a pattern, a pattern of powerful men giving too much, and risking too much. 

[snip'd for space]

This is a pattern, and Dany is the common factor. It's not clever arguments on her side, or elaborate schemes, because that's not her style. It could be beauty, or you could call charm or charisma - the effects are very much the same, and I think it's all part of the larger theme of 'the things I do for love', which is not limited to the sexual or romantic, but includes the 'swords' that love Renly and Robert, and parental love, which trumps all else.

So are you now arguing that those men acted out of love for Dany? Jorah and Daario, yes, but Xaro and Kraznys??? Even with Drogo, your argument fails because he agreed to marry Dany in exchange for invading Westeros before he even set eyes on Dany. Once again, you've given me a list of men who have done extreme or foolish things which benefited Dany, without providing any evidence that their actions were motivated by love, lust, or even plain admiration for Dany.

And that Kraznys quote actually supports my argument, that we learn of a character's beauty through dialogue, not through the extreme actions of the men. Kraznys doesn't trade Dany the Unsullied for a night with her after all, he did it for a dragon.

On 9/11/2018 at 1:45 AM, Springwatch said:

Lyanna is a side issue in this thread, we can argue it out in full elsewhere. I don't think she has movie-star good looks, or has all men falling at her feet. I do think she has this quality of beauty, charm, charisma, whatever. I do think Rhaegar abandoned his kingdom to ruin because he was 'crazy in love' - and she for him, and Robert  for her... but we'll argue this another time. 

Sure, but you'll have to address my counterarguments or there's no point in continuing any sort of discussion.

[Hodor the Articulate]

On 9/10/2018 at 3:15 PM, Starkz said:

Anyone COULD go from nothing to something with dragons. I’m not saying it a surefire thing, but it’s possible for everyone. I’m not discounting other things that she’s done, you were implying only Dany could acomplish something meaningful with dragons when that’s not the case at all.

I already explained what I meant, so please don't put words in my mouth.

[Springwatch]

10 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

So are you now arguing that those men acted out of love for Dany? Jorah and Daario, yes, but Xaro and Kraznys???

Yep.

Although the exact nature of that love is still a slippery concept. Desire might be a better name for it, except that I think that desire without love is a 'hungry' state of mind, less likely to result in unconscious generosity.

Anyway, six of the seven named express desire and the seventh proposes marriage. At the same time they lose focus on their own self interest. Does the one cause the other? Yes in the case of Illyrio, explicitly: the temptation was like madness. What's possible for him is possible for the others, and that's a more satisfying explanation for their behaviour than natural stupidity. They can't all be stupid.

Brain-bending beauty isn't exactly new in literature (Helen of Troy, anyone?). Jim Butcher does it pretty well in the 'Dresden Files' books I've been reading recently. If it exists in asoiaf, it's more subtle, more implied. It might not stay subtle, though. GRRM is a published author of science fiction; and he's playing with ideas of mind control which will come to fruition in the Others, most likely.

Quote

Even with Drogo, your argument fails because he agreed to marry Dany in exchange for invading Westeros before he even set eyes on Dany.

I don't think we know this. I'm assuming he had seen her, otherwise I don't understand his motivation.

Quote

Once again, you've given me a list of men who have done extreme or foolish things which benefited Dany, without providing any evidence that their actions were motivated by love, lust, or even plain admiration for Dany.

What can I say? The books are sadly lacking in proofs for anything.