Why did George give daenerys everything

[argonak]

On 9/10/2018 at 6:45 AM, Springwatch said:

I don't want to take anything away from Dany as a leader. She takes risks and she wins - that speaks for her judgement enough. None of her advisors or helpers would have made her a conqueror of cities or a liberator of slaves - she did all that herself. Her beauty hasn't gone away though; it has an effect whether she likes it or not.

Greed and arrogance don't necessarily make you stupid. Rich, powerful men only stay rich and powerful if they don't generally make stupid mistakes, and don't generally give their wealth away without solid prospects of a return. One stupid mistake, or one piece of excessive generosity wouldn't mean anything, but this is a pattern, a pattern of powerful men giving too much, and risking too much.

• Illyrio gives her three dragon eggs. From Jorah's evidence, three dragon eggs would buy all the sellswords necessary to win back the throne for Viserys, but Illyrio is giving the eggs and Dany too; therefore he's overpaying. And he's giving away the insignia that would help his own dragon prince establish his legitimacy. This is bad planning.
  • Illyrio on Dany: "...  so lovely I was tempted to claim her for myself.... Instead, I summoned a bedwarmer and fucked her vigorously until the madness passed...."
• Drogo gains Dany and the eggs, but risks losing everything else. Dothraki abominate the sea, risk losing their home territory, may have big losses fighting in a strange country, and have little to gain (presumably the deal is they don't sack the kingdom). This would test Drogo's leadership to the limit. This is risky.
  •  Drogo on Dany: he marries her; calls her 'moon of my life'; possibly he did genuinely allow her full ownership of the eggs.
• Viserys went to rape her before the wedding, putting in jeopardy the entire plan to get back his throne. This is crazy.
•  Jorah abandons a workable scheme to get home (as Westerosi spy), and becomes obsessively, crazily dedicated to Dany. This is a bit extreme.
• Xaro champions her in Qarth, gives her a palace to live in, and rich gifts. He wants a dragon, but instead of just taking one, he offers marriage, though he's more interested in men. Even later, at the point of enemity, he comes with more gifts, and a fleet of ships. This is excessively generous.
• Daario decapitates his fellow sellsword leaders. He openly becomes her lover in a very hostile and conservative society that wants her to marry one of their own. This is risky.
• Kraznys gives away all Unsullied with no thought to the obvious hazard. Even though he's an expert on Unsullied. This is stupid.
  • Kraznys on Dany: "Tell her I will lick honey off her breasts, or allow her to lick honey off mine if she prefers."

This is a pattern, and Dany is the common factor. It's not clever arguments on her side, or elaborate schemes, because that's not her style. It could be beauty, or you could call charm or charisma - the effects are very much the same, and I think it's all part of the larger theme of 'the things I do for love', which is not limited to the sexual or romantic, but includes the 'swords' that love Renly and Robert, and parental love, which trumps all else.

Lyanna is a side issue in this thread, we can argue it out in full elsewhere. I don't think she has movie-star good looks, or has all men falling at her feet. I do think she has this quality of beauty, charm, charisma, whatever. I do think Rhaegar abandoned his kingdom to ruin because he was 'crazy in love' - and she for him, and Robert  for her... but we'll argue this another time.

 

That's an interesting theme to identify, and I agree its really through and through the series.  Littlefinger's character is equally driven by his desire for Cat, the results of that desire, and later the desire for Sansa.  Tyrion ruins his life for the "love" of a prostitue.   Had he not failed on the count of the whore, his father would have been able to be unequivacolly proud of Tyrion as acting hand.  Robb caused the destruction of his army, his kingdom, and his life over the love of a girl.  Sandor's character turns a corner largely due to Sansa, and then his life is driven for a time by Arya's existence.  Jamie has Brienne's influence.  It really is everywhere.

[Starkz]

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Yep.

Although the exact nature of that love is still a slippery concept. Desire might be a better name for it, except that I think that desire without love is a 'hungry' state of mind, less likely to result in unconscious generosity.

Anyway, six of the seven named express desire and the seventh proposes marriage. At the same time they lose focus on their own self interest. Does the one cause the other? Yes in the case of Illyrio, explicitly: the temptation was like madness. What's possible for him is possible for the others, and that's a more satisfying explanation for their behaviour than natural stupidity. They can't all be stupid.

Brain-bending beauty isn't exactly new in literature (Helen of Troy, anyone?). Jim Butcher does it pretty well in the 'Dresden Files' books I've been reading recently. If it exists in asoiaf, it's more subtle, more implied. It might not stay subtle, though. GRRM is a published author of science fiction; and he's playing with ideas of mind control which will come to fruition in the Others, most likely.

I don't think we know this. I'm assuming he had seen her, otherwise I don't understand his motivation.

What can I say? The books are sadly lacking in proofs for anything.

Desire for her power and love.

[Springwatch]

2 hours ago, argonak said:

That's an interesting theme to identify, and I agree its really through and through the series.  Littlefinger's character is equally driven by his desire for Cat, the results of that desire, and later the desire for Sansa.  Tyrion ruins his life for the "love" of a prostitue.   Had he not failed on the count of the whore, his father would have been able to be unequivacolly proud of Tyrion as acting hand.  Robb caused the destruction of his army, his kingdom, and his life over the love of a girl.  Sandor's character turns a corner largely due to Sansa, and then his life is driven for a time by Arya's existence.  Jamie has Brienne's influence.  It really is everywhere.

That's it exactly; love is a force in human events.

It seems to me that the metaphor gets a bit intense around Dany - like she has near-magical pheromones or something. Love works in her favour.

19 minutes ago, Starkz said:

Desire for her power and love.

It could just be a metaphor, though a heavily marked one. In a work of fiction, it hardly matters; the effects are the same.

[Starkz]

7 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

 

It could just be a metaphor, though a heavily marked one. In a work of fiction, it hardly matters; the effects are the same.

People flock towards her because of her dragons and power mostly.

[Jô Maltese]

Reply to the OP: so that her death will shock us all in the last book...

[Clegane'sPup]

31 minutes ago, Jo Maltese said:

Reply to the OP: so that her death will shock us all in the last book...

Unpopular thought. I am starting to lean toward that.

[Texas Hold Em]

On 9/10/2018 at 11:08 PM, 300 H&H Magnum said:

It is possible for some people but not most.  Dany also had a lot of terrific character traits that allowed her to turn a bad marriage into something from which she could gain an advantage from.   Most people would not even have gotten to the point where they could hatch the dragon eggs.  The average 13 year old girl would not have had the strength to survive life with the Dothraki and adapt the way Dany did.  Dany not only managed to survive the Dothraki, she found a way to thrive among them.  

 

[Hodor the Articulate]

11 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Although the exact nature of that love is still a slippery concept. Desire might be a better name for it, except that I think that desire without love is a 'hungry' state of mind, less likely to result in unconscious generosity. 

Anyway, six of the seven named express desire and the seventh proposes marriage. At the same time they lose focus on their own self interest. Does the one cause the other? Yes in the case of Illyrio, explicitly: the temptation was like madness. What's possible for him is possible for the others, and that's a more satisfying explanation for their behaviour than natural stupidity. They can't all be stupid. 

Brain-bending beauty isn't exactly new in literature (Helen of Troy, anyone?). Jim Butcher does it pretty well in the 'Dresden Files' books I've been reading recently. If it exists in asoiaf, it's more subtle, more implied. It might not stay subtle, though. GRRM is a published author of science fiction; and he's playing with ideas of mind control which will come to fruition in the Others, most likely.

You're commenting on the plausibility of all these men offering Dany great gifts. That's criticism of GRRM's writing, which is fair, but it shouldn't seep into your interpretation of characters' motivations. Certainly, some of your examples are cases where men act of out romantic love or desire - Jorah, Daario and Viserys - but the rest?

• Illyrio - we don't know what Illyrio's motives are just yet. But it's not like it's ooc or ridiculous for Illyrio to give expensive gifts. "It was a truly magnificent gift, though she knew that Illyrio could afford to be lavish."
• Xaro - Xaro isn't more inclined towards boys, he's fully gay with zero interest in Dany beyond the power he thought he would gain w ith her dragons. This is your weakest example because a big deal was made out of the Qartheen wedding laws would have allowed him possession of one of Dany's dragons, as well as the fact that he didn't once look at Dany lasciviously, even while she had a boob out. There's no question the thing Xaro desires is power.
• Kraznys - Another weak example because the text is pretty explicit with his motivation. "she could see it in the glitter of their eyes and the smiles they tried so hard to hide [...] And the Ghiscari lust for dragons." The theme among Dany's adversaries seems to be greed and pride. As to the plausibility of the situation, does a gun seller expect a customer to shoot them after  a purchase gun?
• Drogo - in the first chapter, Dany says this about the Dothraki: "She had never seen [...] people so strange and frightening" implying they hadn't met before the wedding. This was a prearranged deal, where Drogo would lend his manpower to Viserys in exchange for the prestige of marrying the last female Targ. And he had no plans to invade Westeros, even after he started to respect Dany.
• Viserys - his actions were as much about his own ego as it was lust. The passage in which his attempted rape was brought up makes a point to mention his vanity and greed.
• Daario - Daario lusted for Dany, but he's also described as flamboyant and bloodthirsty. His actions don't strike me as outrageous for him.

There are Helen of Troy parallels to be seen in the Robert-Rhaegar rivalry for Lyanna, and I think that was done on purpose, but it's not a 1:1 parallel. And while I don't disagree that irrationality caused by lust is a theme in the books, I don't think it's as extreme or prevalent as you make it out to be. If anything, it's subverted in this series because, as I show above, rarely are characters motivated solely by lust.

15 hours ago, Springwatch said:

What can I say? The books are sadly lacking in proofs for anything.

Then where are you getting your interpretations? If you can't back up your assertions with textual evidence, it's headcanon.

[Firefae]

On ‎9‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 5:08 AM, 300 H&H Magnum said:

It is possible for some people but not most.  Dany also had a lot of terrific character traits that allowed her to turn a bad marriage into something from which she could gain an advantage from.   Most people would not even have gotten to the point where they could hatch the dragon eggs.  The average 13 year old girl would not have had the strength to survive life with the Dothraki and adapt the way Dany did.  Dany not only managed to survive the Dothraki, she found a way to thrive among them.  

 

She started in a very bad situation but made it better for herself. That takes a certain strength.

[Starkz]

10 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

You're commenting on the plausibility of all these men offering Dany great gifts. That's criticism of GRRM's writing, which is fair, but it shouldn't seep into your interpretation of characters' motivations. Certainly, some of your examples are cases where men act of out romantic love or desire - Jorah, Daario and Viserys - but the rest?

• Illyrio - we don't know what Illyrio's motives are just yet. But it's not like it's ooc or ridiculous for Illyrio to give expensive gifts. "It was a truly magnificent gift, though she knew that Illyrio could afford to be lavish."
• Xaro - Xaro isn't more inclined towards boys, he's fully gay with zero interest in Dany beyond the power he thought he would gain w ith her dragons. This is your weakest example because a big deal was made out of the Qartheen wedding laws would have allowed him possession of one of Dany's dragons, as well as the fact that he didn't once look at Dany lasciviously, even while she had a boob out. There's no question the thing Xaro desires is power.
• Kraznys - Another weak example because the text is pretty explicit with his motivation. "she could see it in the glitter of their eyes and the smiles they tried so hard to hide [...] And the Ghiscari lust for dragons." The theme among Dany's adversaries seems to be greed and pride. As to the plausibility of the situation, does a gun seller expect a customer to shoot them after  a purchase gun?
• Drogo - in the first chapter, Dany says this about the Dothraki: "She had never seen [...] people so strange and frightening" implying they hadn't met before the wedding. This was a prearranged deal, where Drogo would lend his manpower to Viserys in exchange for the prestige of marrying the last female Targ. And he had no plans to invade Westeros, even after he started to respect Dany.
• Viserys - his actions were as much about his own ego as it was lust. The passage in which his attempted rape was brought up makes a point to mention his vanity and greed.
• Daario - Daario lusted for Dany, but he's also described as flamboyant and bloodthirsty. His actions don't strike me as outrageous for him.

There are Helen of Troy parallels to be seen in the Robert-Rhaegar rivalry for Lyanna, and I think that was done on purpose, but it's not a 1:1 parallel. And while I don't disagree that irrationality caused by lust is a theme in the books, I don't think it's as extreme or prevalent as you make it out to be. If anything, it's subverted in this series because, as I show above, rarely are characters motivated solely by lust.

Then where are you getting your interpretations? If you can't back up your assertions with textual evidence, it's headcanon.

Right now everyone wants her for her dragons, not because they love her.

[Sigella]

11 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

There are Helen of Troy parallels to be seen in the Robert-Rhaegar rivalry for Lyanna, and I think that was done on purpose, but it's not a 1:1 parallel.

Imo Cersei/Jaime/Robert with its really dark twist, is very much in line with what kind of Helen of Troy I think GRRM would write, though. Maybe there are a whole bunch of different Helen of Troy-interpretations around?

[Lady Ren]

On 8/22/2018 at 11:06 AM, Starkz said:

Janos strikes me as a cut throat that only rose up in the goldcloaks because he was loyal to LF and would do/say anything to save his reptilian skin. 

“Frog faced Lord Slynt sat at the end of the council table, wearing... Sansa stared hard at his ugly face, remembering how he had thrown down her father for Sir Illyian to behead. Wishing she could hurt him. Wishing, that some hero would throw him down, and cut off his head. But a voice inside her whispered, there are no heroes."

Nice bit of foreshadowing from GRRM.

I think this bit of forshadowing is the reason why so many dislike jons actions in beheading jonas. 

For some Jon belongs to his fathers family, and any connection with his mothers family is a weakness. I.e.: trying to save arya in the books.

Its not shipping necessarily, more about how they view Jon as a character and his legacy.

And his legacy cant be the one true king because that is dany. 

I like the question posed in this thread. And Id say the answer is to contrast dany with jon.  

[Springwatch]

On 9/15/2018 at 8:33 AM, Hodor the Articulate said:

You're commenting on the plausibility of all these men offering Dany great gifts. That's criticism of GRRM's writing, which is fair, but it shouldn't seep into your interpretation of characters' motivations.

No, no criticism; I've got an interpretation that satisfies me. Without it, I would feel that Dany's story is a bit lame. Actually, a lot lame.

On 9/15/2018 at 8:33 AM, Hodor the Articulate said:

Certainly, some of your examples are cases where men act of out romantic love or desire - Jorah, Daario and Viserys - but the rest?

Illyrio - we don't know what Illyrio's motives are just yet. But it's not like it's ooc or ridiculous for Illyrio to give expensive gifts. "It was a truly magnificent gift, though she knew that Illyrio could afford to be lavish."

Thirteen-year-old Dany does not understand the full value of the eggs. Jorah gives her the full picture some time later: three eggs would buy enough swords to win the Iron Throne. One egg would be a powerful emblem for Aegon to carry, not to mention the last Targ princess as a supporter by his side. Illyrio gave away too much, which is not the habit of a self-made rich man.

On 9/15/2018 at 8:33 AM, Hodor the Articulate said:

Xaro - Xaro isn't more inclined towards boys, he's fully gay with zero interest in Dany beyond the power he thought he would gain w ith her dragons. This is your weakest example because a big deal was made out of the Qartheen wedding laws would have allowed him possession of one of Dany's dragons, as well as the fact that he didn't once look at Dany lasciviously, even while she had a boob out. There's no question the thing Xaro desires is power.

Xaro is interesting. As a Qartheen noble he can of course display fake emotion at will. As a skilled merchant and negotiator, he would hide any weakness. But even if truly exclusively gay, he still wants to marry her.

If he did, he wouldn't even be the most powerful person in Qarth, with only one dragon to his wife's two. I suggest he wants her with the obsession of a collector of beautiful objects. If doesn't want her at all, I find his part of the story a bit lame.

On 9/15/2018 at 8:33 AM, Hodor the Articulate said:

Kraznys - Another weak example because the text is pretty explicit with his motivation. "she could see it in the glitter of their eyes and the smiles they tried so hard to hide [...] And the Ghiscari lust for dragons." The theme among Dany's adversaries seems to be greed and pride. As to the plausibility of the situation, does a gun seller expect a customer to shoot them after  a purchase gun?

Karznys - comes up with quite a spectacular sexual fantasy on Dany's breasts. He's not immune to her beauty. He acts stupidly. (Yes, gun sellers are at risk of being shot by their customers e.g. if the customer would rather steal the guns than pay for them.)

On 9/15/2018 at 8:33 AM, Hodor the Articulate said:

Drogo - in the first chapter, Dany says this about the Dothraki: "She had never seen [...] people so strange and frightening" implying they hadn't met before the wedding. This was a prearranged deal, where Drogo would lend his manpower to Viserys in exchange for the prestige of marrying the last female Targ. And he had no plans to invade Westeros, even after he started to respect Dany.

Ah, I see. I wouldn't have made that interpretation. If Dany is to be sold, it makes sense to show her off. She's amazingly lovely. So - Drogo might have met her without all his people, or he might have seen her without her being aware. Or she found the Dothraki strange and frightening every time she met them and still does.  

As to the prestige of a Targ wife - we don't know that Drogo has any respect for Targs at all. He's dismissive of the Iron Throne and Westeros, and his people don't even seem to like blondes, calling Doreah 'stupid strawhead slave'. It's doubtful that Drogo married her for the prestige of marrying the Targ name, but even if he did, he would have insisted on seeing her first.

On 9/15/2018 at 8:33 AM, Hodor the Articulate said:

Viserys - his actions were as much about his own ego as it was lust. The passage in which his attempted rape was brought up makes a point to mention his vanity and greed.

Viserys - is indeed stupid, but every other action was motivated by the idea of winning back his kingdom. This one might lose it.

On 9/15/2018 at 8:33 AM, Hodor the Articulate said:

Daario - Daario lusted for Dany, but he's also described as flamboyant and bloodthirsty. His actions don't strike me as outrageous for him.

Daario - is a bold sellsword, and Brown Ben says these all die young. Still, assassinating his fellow captains, and then taking Dany as lover, are probably the most risky things he has ever done in his life.

On 9/15/2018 at 8:33 AM, Hodor the Articulate said:

There are Helen of Troy parallels to be seen in the Robert-Rhaegar rivalry for Lyanna, and I think that was done on purpose, but it's not a 1:1 parallel. And while I don't disagree that irrationality caused by lust is a theme in the books, I don't think it's as extreme or prevalent as you make it out to be. If anything, it's subverted in this series because, as I show above, rarely are characters motivated solely by lust.

Absolutely. It doesn't have to come down to something as simple as lust. My thinking is that desire and love are not being written in a naturalistic style (also beauty, charm, charisma etc). The effects are too dramatic too overdone.

For an example, Davos risks being burned alive to save Edric Storm. Plus,  Stannis says, "Penrose chose to die rather than give him up". And why? Again from Stannis: "Did the boy charm you? He has that gift.... every one fell victim to his charm...." Well, all I can say is: that is an eye-popping amount of charm.

Not a problem though. We've already seen super-strength (e.g. Robert, the Stark boys) and super-size (e.g. the Mountain, Hodor). Also super-hero style fighting ability (e.g. Tyrion, maybe Asha). So why not super-charm, or super-beauty?

On 9/15/2018 at 8:33 AM, Hodor the Articulate said:

Then where are you getting your interpretations? If you can't back up your assertions with textual evidence, it's headcanon.

The books are short of proofs, as I said. Even R+L=J is just a theory and not everyone believes it.  Basically, you choose what information you find significant.

Personally, I put significance on the fact that on no less than seven occasions a man forgets his own self-interest in regard to Dany, and on six of those occasions the man also expressed desire, and on the seventh he offered marriage. I also hold it significant that Dany is widely acclaimed as the most beautiful woman in the world.

It's the alternative motivations I find inadequate. I want to know why the rich men suddenly start giving wealth away, after a lifetime accumulating it. Why Viserys risks his kingdom, why Drogo risks his 'kingdom', why the sellsword forgets looking after his own skin.... Things that require big explanations.

[Hodor the Articulate]

4 hours ago, Springwatch said:

No, no criticism; I've got an interpretation that satisfies me. Without it, I would feel that Dany's story is a bit lame. Actually, a lot lame.

That's just my point. You're rationalising what you believe to be poor storytelling instead of criticising the writing. I understand doing this while reading, because it would otherwise ruin your enjoyment of the story, but you have no business trying to present your headcanons as absolute truths to other readers.

4 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Thirteen-year-old Dany does not understand the full value of the eggs. Jorah gives her the full picture some time later: three eggs would buy enough swords to win the Iron Throne. One egg would be a powerful emblem for Aegon to carry, not to mention the last Targ princess as a supporter by his side. Illyrio gave away too much, which is not the habit of a self-made rich man.

Isn't it though? What's to say that's an unreasonably expensive gift for a rich man to give to a Queen? She and Viserys were his plan B's after all, and he even got immediate returns on this investment in the form of horses and slaves.

Also, he can't give Aegon a dragon egg because they're trying to keep his Targ identity a secret. It would also look mighty suspicious for a sellsword's son to have such an expensive object.

5 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Xaro is interesting. As a Qartheen noble he can of course display fake emotion at will. As a skilled merchant and negotiator, he would hide any weakness. But even if truly exclusively gay, he still wants to marry her.

If he did, he wouldn't even be the most powerful person in Qarth, with only one dragon to his wife's two. I suggest he wants her with the obsession of a collector of beautiful objects. If doesn't want her at all, I find his part of the story a bit lame.

I'm not sure what you're implying - that he's faking being gay? That makes zero sense.

"While Ser Jorah had scarcely been able to keep his eyes from her bare breast when he'd helped her into the palanquin, Xaro hardly deigned to notice it, even in these close confines. And she had seen the beautiful boys who surrounded the merchant prince, flitting through his palace halls in wisps of silk. "

Xaro being gay is incredibly unsubtle, as are his motivations. There would be no point of including the Qartheen marriage custom into the story if that wasn't Xaro's plan.

5 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Karznys - comes up with quite a spectacular sexual fantasy on Dany's breasts. He's not immune to her beauty. He acts stupidly. (Yes, gun sellers are at risk of being shot by their customers e.g. if the customer would rather steal the guns than pay for them.)

But you've failed to connect his sexual desire to his actions. Does he offer even one Unsullied to her after his lewd comment? No. And he only offers 2000 for her ships and everything on them after much haggling. It's not until she offered a dragon that the Good Masters (yes, plural, because she had to convince more than just Kraznys) agreed to sell all the Unsullied to her.

And the gun seller analogy - that wasn't what I asked, but your response proves my point just the same. Gun sellers continue to sell guns despite of the risk of getting shot, so why is it so hard to believe Kraznys would sell his slaves?

6 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Ah, I see. I wouldn't have made that interpretation. If Dany is to be sold, it makes sense to show her off. She's amazingly lovely. So - Drogo might have met her without all his people, or he might have seen her without her being aware. Or she found the Dothraki strange and frightening every time she met them and still does.   

As to the prestige of a Targ wife - we don't know that Drogo has any respect for Targs at all. He's dismissive of the Iron Throne and Westeros, and his people don't even seem to like blondes, calling Doreah 'stupid strawhead slave'. It's doubtful that Drogo married her for the prestige of marrying the Targ name, but even if he did, he would have insisted on seeing her first.

I considered that Drogo might have seen Dany without her seeing him, but that made little sense to me. Drogo would have no reason to hide himself, nor to travel alone. Had a Khal entered Pentos, Dany would have heard about it.

I think any royal would carry prestige but Dany was the last female Targ and the last entitled female Valyrian. To anyone, marrying her would be like gaining possession of a priceless artifact. To the Dothraki, it would be a symbol of their domination over a people that they historically feared.

7 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Viserys - is indeed stupid, but every other action was motivated by the idea of winning back his kingdom. This one might lose it.

Not every other action. He ordered Jorah to hurt Dany and kill the Dothraki when they whipped him. That would have lost him the only support he had for sure. And then he tried to cut Dany, and that did lose him the Dothraki... and everything else.

7 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Daario - is a bold sellsword, and Brown Ben says these all die young. Still, assassinating his fellow captains, and then taking Dany as lover, are probably the most risky things he has ever done in his life.

I'm not saying Daario didn't kill his partners for Dany, just that it seems like something he would do, to me. Daario is really extra.

7 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Not a problem though. We've already seen super-strength (e.g. Robert, the Stark boys) and super-size (e.g. the Mountain, Hodor). Also super-hero style fighting ability (e.g. Tyrion, maybe Asha). So why not super-charm, or super-beauty? 

Well, it's fantasy fiction. It's bound to be dramatic. I just don't agree that this applies to all the examples you've given.

Also, I think you're downplaying lust for power as a motive, and confusing it for sexual lust or love.

 

[Hodor the Articulate]

On 9/16/2018 at 6:09 AM, Starkz said:

Right now everyone wants her for her dragons, not because they love her.

I never claimed her dragons had nothing to do with her achievements. My objection was to your continued insistence that it was all due to her dragons.

[Hodor the Articulate]

On 9/16/2018 at 7:05 AM, Sigella said:

Imo Cersei/Jaime/Robert with its really dark twist, is very much in line with what kind of Helen of Troy I think GRRM would write, though. Maybe there are a whole bunch of different Helen of Troy-interpretations around? 

I dunno... does that count? I mean, Lyanna/Rhaegar/Robert invoked Helen of Troy because it was, on the surface, about two powerful dudes going to war for a woman. Neither Robert or Jaime are really fighting for Cersei. It's not even a love triangle, really.

ETA: Oh wait, are you thinking of the "war for Cersei's cunt" line? lol

[Sigella]

3 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

I dunno... does that count? I mean, Lyanna/Rhaegar/Robert invoked Helen of Troy because it was, on the surface, about two powerful dudes going to war for a woman. Neither Robert or Jaime are really fighting for Cersei. It's not even a love triangle, really.

ETA: Oh wait, are you thinking of the "war for Cersei's cunt" line? lol

Yup  

[Starkz]

12 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

I never claimed her dragons had nothing to do with her achievements. My objection was to your continued insistence that it was all due to her dragons.

What has she achieved without dragons?

[Lady Ren]

It's the age old question when it comes to Dany: is she good or bad?

I have my guess.

Take note from history: The British Empire's "Enlightenment Era" did many things. It partly consisted of them enslaving thousands in Asia and South Asia with indenture contracts (mid to late 1800's). This was a bid to rid the countries of what they felt were truly horrendous customs (i.e.: child marriage, cast systems. Both are its own form of slavery).  Most British nationals thought they were doing a good thing with this movement. The loyalist population still stands by it. I've watched documentaries on how the British "helped" India.

The British monarchy sought to accomplish this "enlightenment" through many ways: forced neutering of men, taking land away from those who had land, redistributing it among British nationals and Indians who "bowed" and proved useful, and redistributing extremely poor people, sometimes out of the country with promise of wealth in far off lands (i.e.: Fiji, Mauritius, Africa, etc). When the indentured people got to those places they realized that there was no land that they could claim. In Fiji there were poor living conditions and sugar cane fields that needed to be tended to. The benefits of their labour went to the Royal British Sugar Cane Company, which is still in existence today. In exchange for the grueling labour there was enough food to keep them alive and a place to sleep. There was also a resident population that wasn't too happy about being colonized. What followed was civil unrest and inter-fighting. Fiji itself experienced 5 military coups during the 1970's-1980's. Five. And not that long ago too.

In an effort to rid the South Asian population of problematic behaviors the British monarchy created a new form of slavery, which they didn't view as such. After all, Asians and South Asians signed binding contracts. They weren't captured and forcibly taken elsewhere. But indentured slavery is still slavery. And for the next century and a half, until Gandhi did his thing (A note on Gandhi: He was great for the emancipation of India from the British, not so great for India's women): the Asians and South Asians in Fiji, along with the native population struggled. And continue to do so to some extent. Subjugation leaves its mark.

The ironic thing is, South Asia still suffers from child marriage and cast systems. These things have not gone away. Instead add rampant corruption and a decreasing middle-class.

Helping people doesn't consist of you conquering them. Love not fear (ahem). You don't get to waltz in and tell people, "no, this thing that you do is wrong.  I will make you stop". This idea, that you can know better for someone than they know for themselves is truly ignorant and history shows us it's problematic.

It doesn't matter what Dany's intentions are. Yes, slavery is horrible. No one is challenging that here. But what makes slavery horrible? It's not wrong just because it is. It's wrong for some of the following reasons:

- lack of freedom; you set the course of people's lives; restrict their mobility, etc

- lack of choice; you tell people you know what is better for them and make choices for them

- inequality; you treat people as less than you

- right to life liberty and security of person; you harm people physically (among other ways) and do so with the attitude that you have the right. That your freedom to live as you wish trumps their basic right to life and air

There are times where she negotiates and listens to her advisors. She also kills the rich over and over, citing "slaver" as her excuse, while she keeps a former slaver in her entourage. What makes Jorah worthy of life and not the others? He didn't stop out of the goodness of his heart, he stopped when Ned Stark exiled him.

She truly does not get it. Any of it. Growing up in the streets as a Targ is different than growing up in the streets as an average person. Yes she was forced to marry Drogo. But Drogo's marriage alliance (and the title of Khaleesi) came to her because she is a Targ. Otherwise Drogo would've just raped her and been done with it. No marriage and no Khaleesi. Let's be real.

She does not know better for people than they do themselves. The more she insists she does, the less she understands the people she wants to help. While she may be goddess like in her world, she is not all-knowing. And when she finally understands this, when she finally understands that the world owes her nothing, that is when she will start being worthy.

She is a savior in some ways and in others not so much.

[Angel Eyes]

2 hours ago, Starkz said:

What has she achieved without dragons?

Worming out of Viserys’ grasp.