Why did George give daenerys everything

[Starkz]

4 minutes ago, Firefae said:

Yes I know that. But she also wouldn't have achieved her victories in Yunkai and Meereen without her own skill. It's not just 'she has dragons. She also uses her own skills.

Sure no doubt. I was just debating with someone before who was saying her dragons didn’t have anything to do with her accomplishments.

[Firefae]

1 minute ago, Starkz said:

Sure no doubt. I was just debating with someone before who was saying her dragons didn’t have anything to do with her accomplishments.

Oh, but with that I disagree. Her dragons have surely helped her multiple times.

[Springwatch]

On 9/17/2018 at 7:08 AM, Hodor the Articulate said:

Isn't it though? What's to say that's an unreasonably expensive gift for a rich man to give to a Queen? She and Viserys were his plan B's after all, and he even got immediate returns on this investment in the form of horses and slaves.

She'd have been thrilled with one egg.

I don't think plan B is an absolute truth.

On 9/17/2018 at 7:08 AM, Hodor the Articulate said:

Also, he can't give Aegon a dragon egg because they're trying to keep his Targ identity a secret. It would also look mighty suspicious for a sellsword's son to have such an expensive object.

Sure. But later.

On 9/17/2018 at 7:08 AM, Hodor the Articulate said:

I'm not sure what you're implying - that he's faking being gay? That makes zero sense.

It doesn't really matter, because he could love her in a non-sexual way. However, it's at least possible he's bi-sexual: he has sexy female slaves as well as male ones - we see them in the dance troupe. Also, if the marriage goes ahead, presumably he's planning to keep her happy in bed, and give her children. I think he talks about children.

Why would he present as gay to Dany? Suppose - just for a minute, suppose that he does feel the madness of desire as described by Illyrio. But he is also a cold-hearted fish who wants to 'win' the relationship. In that case, he'd find negotiations easier if Dany put away the sexy dresses and dialled down her efforts to charm him. Which she would do if she believed he wasn't responding.

On 9/17/2018 at 7:08 AM, Hodor the Articulate said:

But you've failed to connect his sexual desire to his actions. But you've failed to connect his sexual desire to his actions. Does he offer even one Unsullied to her after his lewd comment? No.

Well she's not trading sex for Unsullied, is she?

The point I'm trying to make is that it's not enough to examine each case individually, to say, well this was just an accident waiting to happen, and the next event, well that just happened too, and the next one....

ALL the events happened. Dany is bowling over players like ninepins. It's the entireity of the pattern that needs explanation.

On 9/17/2018 at 7:08 AM, Hodor the Articulate said:

And the gun seller analogy - that wasn't what I asked, but your response proves my point just the same. Gun sellers continue to sell guns despite of the risk of getting shot, so why is it so hard to believe Kraznys would sell his slaves?

We know Kraznys sells Unsullied, that's his business. And I suppose gun sellers take precautions

On 9/17/2018 at 7:08 AM, Hodor the Articulate said:

I think any royal would carry prestige but Dany was the last female Targ and the last entitled female Valyrian. To anyone, marrying her would be like gaining possession of a priceless artifact. To the Dothraki, it would be a symbol of their domination over a people that they historically feared.

This is good, I like it.

On 9/17/2018 at 7:08 AM, Hodor the Articulate said:

Not every other action. He ordered Jorah to hurt Dany and kill the Dothraki when they whipped him. That would have lost him the only support he had for sure. And then he tried to cut Dany, and that did lose him the Dothraki... and everything else.

True. That was later though. Still based on Dany.

On 9/17/2018 at 7:08 AM, Hodor the Articulate said:

I'm not saying Daario didn't kill his partners for Dany, just that it seems like something he would do, to me. Daario is really extra.

I see your thinking here.

On 9/17/2018 at 7:08 AM, Hodor the Articulate said:

Well, it's fantasy fiction. It's bound to be dramatic. I just don't agree that this applies to all the examples you've given.

Um, well. I skimmed over this because I don't want to look up all the references. From memory:

• Super-strength
  • Robert fights all day with a warhammer so heavy that Ned can't lift it.
  • Rob single-handedly lifts a dead elk onto the back of his horse.
  • Jon does a few things, including lifting a man off his feet iirc.
  • Toddler Rickon slashes at Luwin with a sword.
• Super-size
  • Gregor Clegane (Robert Strong is probably taller.)
  • Hodor
  • (Giants)
  • A general excess of burly men around the seven-foot mark.
  • Little Pigeon's army - all seven to eight feet. Plus stilts!
• Super-fighting-ability
  • Tyrion, for heaven's sake. He's a dwarf with leg-cramps. Fighting like a hero.
  • Also Jon/Garlan duelling 3 opponents simultaneously. It doesn't seem possible.
  • Syrio/Barristan - unless the gold-cloaks did the fantasy guard thing, attacking one at a time.

[Springwatch]

2nd half:

On 9/17/2018 at 7:08 AM, Hodor the Articulate said:

That's just my point. You're rationalising what you believe to be poor storytelling instead of criticising the writing.

Bit unfair on the author, that - to deny him credit when I enjoy the books. How do you know what he intended, or not?

On 9/17/2018 at 7:08 AM, Hodor the Articulate said:

... you have no business trying to present your headcanons as absolute truths to other readers.

No. That's why my posts are boringly full of 'I think', and 'possibly', and 'maybe'. (Honestly, as a reader, I really prefer posts that just say 'Septa Lemore is Ashara Dayne' etc. - it's quicker.) Besides, everybody can tell the difference between a theory and a fact from the books; if you've been led astray on any point, tell me.

imho, it would be a mistake to limit discussion to plain facts from the books, and strictly realistic consequences of those facts. This is fantasy, weird stuff happens. And we've got an author who likes to play games within his writing - so we've got foreshadowing, parallel characters, symbolism and word play - all sorts of things to try and understand.

I'd say a theory is something that goes just a step or two beyond the text. And head-canon maybe takes a bit of a leap into the unknown, but 'feels right'. (I'm not going to object to someone posting head-canon, even if I disagree with it. If it 'feels right' to a real fan of the books, it's worth listening to.)

Super-beauty, or charm, is only a step from the text. We know Dany has extraordinary beauty. We know Edric Storm has extraordinary charm, and got extraordinary loyalty and service as a result. Renly, and young Robert, were both beautiful and loved by the masses, and armies swarmed to their support. So I'd expect Dany's beauty and charm to bring in a heavy payload.

It's a developing theme anyway - how to bend another to your will. Kings do it. Skinchangers do it. Slavers do it. Religious leaders do it. The Others do it. Varys' riddle poses the question 'how is it done'. We'll be seeing more of this, and things will get a lot clearer.

[Varysblackfyre321]

8 hours ago, Sigella said:

LMAO your trolling is top notch babe.

Please, this person is expressing an opinion you find wrong, it doesn't mean he or she is merely saying what it's saying because it's edgey or whatever. 

[Barbrey Dustin]

11 hours ago, Starkz said:

I never mentioned the Starks but their direwolf saving them isn’t an achievement which is what we were discussing.

It's a lucky break that the Stark kids didn't earn.  It's a gift from the author.  Bran would be dead if it were not for his dire wolf.  

8 hours ago, Starkz said:

Not trolling it’s just facts. The dragons are her power and you’re all acting as though she’s some independent leader that doesn’t have nuclear weapons to thank for her success.

 

Edit: If you have proof otherwise provide it.

And you're trying to diminish Daenerys Targaryen's high intelligence, unmatched courage, and terrific leadership abilities.  You're attempting to attribute all of her accomplishments to the dragons.  Which is simply not true.  Daenerys was on the path to greatness even before the arrival of the dragons.  The dragons take an already very intelligent young person and puts her on the path to do great deeds.  

Jon Snow didn't exactly have to work for his wolf.  He got special treatment at the wall because he is the bastard son of the warden of the north.  That's right, Jon got away with attempted murder.  He won an election that he didn't deserve to win, thanks to Samwell rigging the election.  He got a Valyrian steel sword for free which a man of far greater accomplishment like Tywin Lannister can only envy.  The point is, all of the five top tier characters got something.  Daenerys is the top character and she has a really tough mission to end slavery that will require power to accomplish.  

 

[Hodor the Articulate]

6 hours ago, Springwatch said:

She'd have been thrilled with one egg.

I don't think plan B is an absolute truth.

Sure. But later. 

Yeah but George wanted three dragons hatched

I do count it as a bit lazy writing-wise for Dany to just get gifted dragon eggs, so I can't entirely justify it. That said, I still don't think it's not an ooc  move for Illyrio. Sometimes I think GRRM's original plan of having Dany just randomly stumbling across the eggs would have worked better, because you could just chalk it up to magic! or destiny!

As for Aegon, I don't think dragon eggs would have done anything for him. Clearly, it's not something people only associate Targs with having. And Illyrio would have covered any expenses directly.

6 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Um, well. I skimmed over this because I don't want to look up all the references. From memory: 

No, I agree with those. It's some of the love/lust examples I don't think fit.

As an aside, I think you could stick Daario into some of your super- categories. He's the personification of what your talking about. Everything he does is ott and ridiculous.

7 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Bit unfair on the author, that - to deny him credit when I enjoy the books. How do you know what he intended, or not?

Well, you can enjoy something while still being critical. Nothing is perfect.

I get your point that authorial intent is not always clear. But I said what did because, based on what you said, you're creating interpretations because you find the explicit or more obvious reasons behind the characters actions unrealistic. It seems like authorial intent is eschewed for a more consistent or realistic narrative.

Like I said, there's nothing wrong with this and everyone does it, but if you're going to argue about it, at least make sure there's good supporting evidence and that it doesn't contradict the text.

[Hodor the Articulate]

14 hours ago, Starkz said:

I guess I missed the part where she didn’t have dragons when she did these things... she was going to be taken to Vaes Dothrak before she hatched her dragons and no one was planning on following her beforehand. Dany could still have achieved things if she wasn’t intelligent, I used Vic as an example whom isn’t the sharpest tool in the box who has still achieved things. 

Dany wouldn't have hatched dragons if it weren't for her bravery and trust in her intuition, so by your logic, everything she's achieved with dragons should be attributed to her own qualities. Heck, why don't we go even further back? Dany wouldn't be alive without Willem Darry - let's credit him for freeing slaves and bring back dragons.

You're still avoiding my question. Victarian didn't conquer SB. He's irrelevant. Maybe you're misunderstanding me, so let me be even more specific. Say Dany were the opposite of how she usually is - she'd be foolish, cowardly, helpless, mean, and have no thought of her own. How would opposite!Dany handle Drogo? How would she free the Unsullied? How would she defeat Yunkai and free it's slaves? Would Jorah and Barristan still be by her side?

9 hours ago, Starkz said:

Sure no doubt. I was just debating with someone before who was saying her dragons didn’t have anything to do with her accomplishments. 

I assume this is referring to me, which is bullshit and you know it. I've said at least twice that I don't discount her dragons. What I've been arguing against is you refusing to acknowledge that it's how Dany's used her dragons that has gotten her to where she is.

[Starkz]

6 hours ago, Barbrey Dustin said:

It's a lucky break that the Stark kids didn't earn.  It's a gift from the author.  Bran would be dead if it were not for his dire wolf.  

And you're trying to diminish Daenerys Targaryen's high intelligence, unmatched courage, and terrific leadership abilities.  You're attempting to attribute all of her accomplishments to the dragons.  Which is simply not true.  Daenerys was on the path to greatness even before the arrival of the dragons.  The dragons take an already very intelligent young person and puts her on the path to do great deeds.  

Jon Snow didn't exactly have to work for his wolf.  He got special treatment at the wall because he is the bastard son of the warden of the north.  That's right, Jon got away with attempted murder.  He won an election that he didn't deserve to win, thanks to Samwell rigging the election.  He got a Valyrian steel sword for free which a man of far greater accomplishment like Tywin Lannister can only envy.  The point is, all of the five top tier characters got something.  Daenerys is the top character and she has a really tough mission to end slavery that will require power to accomplish.  

 

I never said Dany wasn’t smart or courageous, I’m just saying her accomplishments are all entwined with her dragons, which is a fact, not an opinion. I’m not sure how she would be considered on “a path to greatness before them” when Drogo was dead and she had nothing. Also I’m not sure where Jon Snow just popped out of, but he has nothing to do with anything that I’m saying so I’m not sure why you’re bringing him up? An attempt to elevate Dany by diminishing Jon or some other character? The direwolves were raised by their owners, they bonded and formed loyalty with them, not that this has anything to do with what I’m saying. Dany is doing  the same with her dragons just as any person with a familiar does that successfully earns their trust and companionship.

[Starkz]

3 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Dany wouldn't have hatched dragons if it weren't for her bravery and trust in her intuition, so by your logic, everything she's achieved with dragons should be attributed to her own qualities. Heck, why don't we go even further back? Dany wouldn't be alive without Willem Darry - let's credit him for freeing slaves and bring back dragons.

You're still avoiding my question. Victarian didn't conquer SB. He's irrelevant. Maybe you're misunderstanding me, so let me be even more specific. Say Dany were the opposite of how she usually is - she'd be foolish, cowardly, helpless, mean, and have no thought of her own. How would opposite!Dany handle Drogo? How would she free the Unsullied? How would she defeat Yunkai and free it's slaves? Would Jorah and Barristan still be by her side?

I assume this is referring to me, which is bullshit and you know it. I've said at least twice that I don't discount her dragons. What I've been arguing against is you refusing to acknowledge that it's how Dany's used her dragons that has gotten her to where she is.

Everything Dany has achieved has involved dragons is all I’ve been saying which is true, so I’m not sure why were still debating this. If Dany was a different person who’s to say she would care about slavery or anything about Essos? The original question was you asked if Dany would have achieved anything without being smart, my answer was yes you don’t have to be smart to achieve things, just look at Victarion who has achieved things and is rather dumb as an example. Furthermore as I’ve just said and been saying, different people have different goals and ambitions. Not everyone is going to care about ending slavery in Essos when they have three dragons. Dany has used her dragons to further her goals I don’t deny that, hell thats what I’ve been saying.

[Amris]

On 9/15/2018 at 8:09 PM, Starkz said:

Right now everyone wants her for her dragons, not because they love her.

 

On 9/17/2018 at 8:32 PM, Starkz said:

What has she achieved without dragons?

 

12 hours ago, Starkz said:

Her army that her dragons got her took Meereen and Yunkai, see the connections here?

 That is rather what I am saying, everything she’s accomplished to this point is because of dragons.

 

She did almost acomplish peace in Meereen on her own, but her dragons or rather Drogon ruined that and now she’ll use her dragons to acomplish it.

 

On 9/14/2018 at 9:39 PM, Starkz said:

People flock towards her because of her dragons and power mostly.

 

On 9/18/2018 at 4:53 AM, Starkz said:

She had dragons for all of those things besides being with Drogo, whom she was married to. Vic has achieved things with his lack of intelligence.

 

Yes, dragons are big and impressive beasts and if one sits in front of you (let alone three of them) it is hard to look away from it and pay attention to other details.

However looking left and right and reckognize those other things is rewarding. Because if you reduce Dany's story to the dragons (and close your eyes to her other strengths) you are missing one of the most interesting thematic threads weaved into her storyline.

What GRRM has created here is a journey from a very - very - low place - being sold off by her own brother, for all intends and purposes as a sex slave - to a queen and the most powerful ruler in Essos.

On this long hero's journey Dany - like any worthwile story heroine - gets thrown into an uncertain and unknown (to her) 'under'world with an uncertain future, gets in danger, makes mistakes, discovers helpful boons (the dragons being the most obvious of these but not the only ones) and then returns with her new-won powers to use them in the climax of the story.

It is this growth of Dany that I am talking about which I find so interesting. To reduce this to 'she has dragons' is missing most of her story.

The first boons she finds on her journey have nothing to do with dragons: they are qualities she discovers that she has, namely inner strength, compassion, adaptability, beauty and the ability to love. She gets literaly sold off into a completly unknown (to her) culture  as nothing more than a glorified bed-warmer and yet she finds out she can adapt to this strange people and survive. Not only survive but thrive. This is such an amazing feat and has nothing to do with dragons and all with Dany's personal qualities.

And I have to point out that in this phase it is not calculation on her part. She does not do this in order to become queen of Westeros. (it still is Visery who is the heir then.) Dany does not powerplay back then. She just adapts and uses her qualities and that alone makes her a true khaleesi at Drogo's side with influence on his decisions instead of just a bed-warmer with no influence at all.

That she then becomes heir to the throne also owes to her qualities (and Viserys' lack thereof) and not to her dragons. Dany becomes heir not by plotting against her brother. She becomes heir by being a decent human being while Viserys - who isn't that - essentially self-destructs. Viserys's weaknesses are his downfall. Vice versa Dany's lack of these weaknesses propel her into the heir role. She survives what her brother can not (the integration into the Dothraki culture). Thus she earns the heir role.

At this point in the story Dany has taken two important steps up the ladder: from quasi-slave to influential khaleesi and from spare to heir. And both steps without dragony help.

The next boon Dany aquires on her journey is the hatching of the dragons. Here too attention to the details pays off: Dany does not just stumble over this benefit without paying for it. She pays. A lot.

GRRM takes from Dany what is most dear to her at this point: her husband. And with Drogo also the (then)-source of most of Dany's influence. And - cruelly - the author makes matters worse for her because it's arguably Dany's own actions who cause this calamity (albeit unwittingly). And in this darkest hour, against all odds and despite the despair and guilt she must feel Dany rises in an act of incredible bravery, laying her husband (and with him her past  hopes) to rest, walks into the flames, literally burning her life to ashes and hatching three dragons. And a new destiny.

If this boon isn't earned then I don't know what is.

After having aquired this boon she of course uses the dragons and they of course play a major role in the story and of course Dany's further successes wouldn't have been possible without them. But to argue that they are all that's there is jumping so much too short that it misses most of her story.  Dany continues to be Dany and she continues to use her other boons - not just the dragons. Any hero in any story once he's aquired his boon uses it and it is important in the resolution of the story but that does not mean other things don't have to play their roles also. Without Dany's compassion we wouldn't have the story we have. Without her bravery we wouldn't. Without her willingness to bring sacrifices we wouldn't. Without her ability to inspire loyalty (with or without dragons) we wouldn't. Without her willingness to try to learn (and to fail and make mistakes) we wouldn't. And so on.

[Hodor the Articulate]

1 hour ago, Starkz said:

Everything Dany has achieved has involved dragons is all I’ve been saying which is true, so I’m not sure why were still debating this. If Dany was a different person who’s to say she would care about slavery or anything about Essos? The original question was you asked if Dany would have achieved anything without being smart, my answer was yes you don’t have to be smart to achieve things, just look at Victarion who has achieved things and is rather dumb as an example. Furthermore as I’ve just said and been saying, different people have different goals and ambitions. Not everyone is going to care about ending slavery in Essos when they have three dragons. Dany has used her dragons to further her goals I don’t deny that, hell thats what I’ve been saying.

Bolded part is the point. She wouldn't have done any of the things she did had she had only dragons but no wit. She wouldn't even have dragons to begin with. The dragons are nothing if the person who possesses them don't know how to use them.

I think anybody can see from your previous posts, as collected by the above poster, that you've been very dismissive of Dany's personal qualities this whole time, refusing to credit Dany for Yunkaii or even anything she'd done before she even had dragons. Even now, you can't bring yourself to say that it's Dany's wisdom and creativity in her use of the dragons that allowed her to achieve her goals.

[Sigella]

12 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Please, this person is expressing an opinion you find wrong, it doesn't mean he or she is merely saying what it's saying because it's edgey or whatever. 

Please, this person doesn't respond to arguments, sweeps textual evidence to the side and goes on and on about Dany being the worst spoiled playmate ever. In addition, the poster in question is only active in Dany-bashing.

Damn right, I'm not taking it seriously but there are plenty of other posters that do, so its not like my beachyness matters.

[Starkz]

10 hours ago, Amris said:

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, dragons are big and impressive beasts and if one sits in front of you (let alone three of them) it is hard to look away from it and pay attention to other details.

However looking left and right and reckognize those other things is rewarding. Because if you reduce Dany's story to the dragons (and close your eyes to her other strengths) you are missing one of the most interesting thematic threads weaved into her storyline.

What GRRM has created here is a journey from a very - very - low place - being sold off by her own brother, for all intends and purposes as a sex slave - to a queen and the most powerful ruler in Essos.

On this long hero's journey Dany - like any worthwile story heroine - gets thrown into an uncertain and unknown (to her) 'under'world with an uncertain future, gets in danger, makes mistakes, discovers helpful boons (the dragons being the most obvious of these but not the only ones) and then returns with her new-won powers to use them in the climax of the story.

It is this growth of Dany that I am talking about which I find so interesting. To reduce this to 'she has dragons' is missing most of her story.

The first boons she finds on her journey have nothing to do with dragons: they are qualities she discovers that she has, namely inner strength, compassion, adaptability, beauty and the ability to love. She gets literaly sold off into a completly unknown (to her) culture  as nothing more than a glorified bed-warmer and yet she finds out she can adapt to this strange people and survive. Not only survive but thrive. This is such an amazing feat and has nothing to do with dragons and all with Dany's personal qualities.

And I have to point out that in this phase it is not calculation on her part. She does not do this in order to become queen of Westeros. (it still is Visery who is the heir then.) Dany does not powerplay back then. She just adapts and uses her qualities and that alone makes her a true khaleesi at Drogo's side with influence on his decisions instead of just a bed-warmer with no influence at all.

That she then becomes heir to the throne also owes to her qualities (and Viserys' lack thereof) and not to her dragons. Dany becomes heir not by plotting against her brother. She becomes heir by being a decent human being while Viserys - who isn't that - essentially self-destructs. Viserys's weaknesses are his downfall. Vice versa Dany's lack of these weaknesses propel her into the heir role. She survives what her brother can not (the integration into the Dothraki culture). Thus she earns the heir role.

At this point in the story Dany has taken two important steps up the ladder: from quasi-slave to influential khaleesi and from spare to heir. And both steps without dragony help.

The next boon Dany aquires on her journey is the hatching of the dragons. Here too attention to the details pays off: Dany does not just stumble over this benefit without paying for it. She pays. A lot.

GRRM takes from Dany what is most dear to her at this point: her husband. And with Drogo also the (then)-source of most of Dany's influence. And - cruelly - the author makes matters worse for her because it's arguably Dany's own actions who cause this calamity (albeit unwittingly). And in this darkest hour, against all odds and despite the despair and guilt she must feel Dany rises in an act of incredible bravery, laying her husband (and with him her past  hopes) to rest, walks into the flames, literally burning her life to ashes and hatching three dragons. And a new destiny.

If this boon isn't earned then I don't know what is.

After having aquired this boon she of course uses the dragons and they of course play a major role in the story and of course Dany's further successes wouldn't have been possible without them. But to argue that they are all that's there is jumping so much too short that it misses most of her story.  Dany continues to be Dany and she continues to use her other boons - not just the dragons. Any hero in any story once he's aquired his boon uses it and it is important in the resolution of the story but that does not mean other things don't have to play their roles also. Without Dany's compassion we wouldn't have the story we have. Without her bravery we wouldn't. Without her willingness to bring sacrifices we wouldn't. Without her ability to inspire loyalty (with or without dragons) we wouldn't. Without her willingness to try to learn (and to fail and make mistakes) we wouldn't. And so on.

The biggest part of her story is her dragons, wouldn’t you agree? Dany is heir to the throne because she’s the last Targaryen... that’s how succession works. Her dragons account for a lot of the plot progression in her story, just look at what’s happening now in the story. She needs ships, and here ships come out of nowhere(Greyjoys) because she has dragons. Daenerys need more troops, her chapter ends with her meeting the Dothraki, with her dragon. I’m not saying she doesn’t deserve credit for the things she done, just that dragons in one way or another have been responsible for a large chunk of her plot progression and involved with all of her accomplishments. 

because Dany went into the pyre she “earned” her dragons? So if anyone goes into a fire with dragon eggs and they come out with them they “earned them”? Dany got her dragons from blood magic, not because she “earned” them. When I think of earning something, it’s when you acomplish something or do something and receive something in return as reward. Dany didn’t acomplish anything for her dragons, it was sacrifice and blood magic which brought them into the world she didn’t do anything to “earn them”. Perhaps in the sense of being brave enough to walk into the fire after her dreams she “earned”, sort of as the last piece of the puzzle but just walking into a fire doesn’t hatch dragons, it was the blood magic. Sometimes things are given to you and afterwards you have to prove you are worthy of them.

earn

ərn/

verb

1. (of a person) obtain in return for labor or services.

[Springwatch]

12 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

I get your point that authorial intent is not always clear.

Yes.

Quote

But I said what did because, based on what you said, you're creating interpretations because you find the explicit or more obvious reasons behind the characters actions unrealistic.

Yes. Unrealistic or inadequate.

Quote

It seems like authorial intent is eschewed for a more consistent or realistic narrative.

Not so clear.

From my point of view, the books literally are - highly original - in two ways. First, realism gives way all over the place. Second, the really heavy layer of 'meta' stuff, the symbolism etc I listed before.

I infer a third piece of originality, which is that the meta stuff has priority over the realism. Suddenly the books work so much better!

Doesn't mean I'm right or wrong - as I think you've said already, reading is an active process with every reader creating their own kind of synthesis. So I'm not arguing, exactly. Just recommending.

Quote

Like I said, there's nothing wrong with this and everyone does it, but if you're going to argue about it, at least make sure there's good supporting evidence and that it doesn't contradict the text.

But the text contradicts itself!

What colour are Qyburn's eyes?

[Starkz]

6 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Bolded part is the point. She wouldn't have done any of the things she did had she had only dragons but no wit. She wouldn't even have dragons to begin with. The dragons are nothing if the person who possesses them don't know how to use them.

I think anybody can see from your previous posts, as collected by the above poster, that you've been very dismissive of Dany's personal qualities this whole time, refusing to credit Dany for Yunkaii or even anything she'd done before she even had dragons. Even now, you can't bring yourself to say that it's Dany's wisdom and creativity in her use of the dragons that allowed her to achieve her goals.

What I’ve said is different people have different goals, true enough? Dany would be a different person had she no wits, it’s not a cap barrier that you can’t achieve things without being smart. You’re implying that a person with no wit wouldn’t be able to achieve anything with 3 dragons which isn’t true. Also why wouldn’t she be able to hatch the dragons if she wasn’t smart? The dragons were hatched from magic not from wit. Dany still doesn’t have a full grasp on all the dragons yet which is why they’re locked up and she’s still achieved a lot with them.

 I’ve never said she doesn’t deserve credit for what she’s done, I’ve said in earlier posts she does deserve credit in fact. I credit her, and her dragons for her accomplishments. Dany’s goals combined with her dragons can acomplish anything.

[Amris]

3 hours ago, Starkz said:

[snip]

Earlier you talked of the Starks “earning” their Wolf, so here you say because Dany went into the pyre she “earned” her dragons? So if anyone goes into a fire with dragon eggs and they come out with them they “earned them”? Dany got her dragons from blood magic, not because she “earned” them. When I think of earning something, it’s when you acomplish something or do something and receive something in return as reward. Dany didn’t acomplish anything for her dragons, it was sacrifice and blood magic which brought them into the world she didn’t do anything to “earn them”.

[snip]

earn

ərn/

verb

1. (of a person) obtain in return for labor or services.

I wrote nothing about Starks or Direwolves, sorry.

I also did not say Dany earned her dragons because she went into the pyre. (or rather: just because she went into the pyre). Don't make things up please.

What I did point out - rightly - was that GRRM did not just have Dany stumble over some dragons for free but has her pay a price - a hefty price - for them. I also explained that price (and I did not write it was just 'going into a pyre' as you claim. There is a lot more she had to pay and I already explained that in the post you cited. Since its already in that post I see no reason to repeat myself. Go read it or keep ignoring it.

Thank you for citing from a dictionary. Have you truly never heard of the western literature's traditional structure of the 'hero's journey', a part of which structure is the hero's earning a boon - earning in a literal or a metaphorical sense? Or are you just playing dumb to troll?

[Starkz]

27 minutes ago, Amris said:

I wrote nothing about Starks or Direwolves, sorry.

I also did not say Dany earned her dragons because she went into the pyre. (or rather: just because she went into the pyre). Don't make things up please.

What I did point out - rightly - was that GRRM did not just have Dany stumble over some dragons for free but has her pay a price - a hefty price - for them. I also explained that price (and I did not write it was just 'going into a pyre' as you claim. There is a lot more she had to pay and I already explained that in the post you cited. Since its already in that post I see no reason to repeat myself. Go read it or keep ignoring it.

Thank you for citing from a dictionary. Have you truly never heard of the western literature's traditional structure of the 'hero's journey', a part of which structure is the hero's earning a boon - earning in a literal or a metaphorical sense? Or are you just playing dumb to troll?

Ah sorry someone had before I thought you were the same person I was replying to before.

 

“If this boon isn't earned then I don't know what is.” 

She sacrificed for her dragons, there’s a difference between sacrifice and earning something. I’ve heard of the term “hero’s journey”,  heroes have to make sacrifices, which is what she did. Saying she earned her dragons is the wrong term. I never said she received dragons for free either. The only point I’ve been making is that her dragons have been involved in her achievements which I don’t understand why everyone has such a big issue with this, as if she does everything on her own and is solely responsible for her achievements. She has three dragons, of course they’re going to be involved in everything she does and dictate the outcome of things. No one can equal that, her dragons are on a whole other level from everything in the world.

You also said she “earned” being the heir whereas that is a matter of succession, you don’t “earn” being an heir. When Viserys was killed she then become the last Targaryen, and this the heir. She thinks as much in her chapters.

[Amris]

It's exactly the right term. You just don't want to hear it because it makes your whole thesis - (that Dany's accomplishments are just because of her dragons and nothing else) crumble.

Yes, Dany made sacrifices and she earned her dragons. And everything she does with the dragons are her accomplishments. Not least because she earned the dragons in the first place. The hard way.

Besides the dragons Dany's storyline has a lot more to offer as myself and others have amply pointed out in this thread.  Your thesis is incorrect. Accept it of keep denying it. What you believe or don't does not matter.

[Starkz]

13 minutes ago, Amris said:

It's exactly the right term. You just don't want to hear it because it makes your whole thesis - (that Dany's accomplishments are just because of her dragons and nothing else) crumble.

Yes, Dany made sacrifices and she earned her dragons. And everything she does with the dragons are her accomplishments. Not least because she earned the dragons in the first place. The hard way.

Besides the dragons Dany's storyline has a lot more to offer as myself and others have amply pointed out in this thread.  Your thesis is incorrect. Accept it of keep denying it. What you believe or don't does not matter.

I never said her accomplishments were all solely responsible to her dragons. Read what I’ve said before. Dany definitely deserves credit for what she’s done and her accomplishments as I’ve said. All I’ve said is her dragons have been involved in all of her accomplishments which is a fact. Sacrifice and earning are two very different things. 

Also I’ve never bashed her storyline it does have more to do with than dragons of course, though I would prefer if she was in Westeros by now. Dany’s story is definitely interesting especially as all these major factions will be converging on her which will be quite the read to see how she handles them all.