Why did George give daenerys everything

[Maia]

2 hours ago, Starkz said:

as if she does everything on her own and is solely responsible for her achievements. 

But then, nobody in ASOIAF is, except for people like Varys and Bronn, maybe. And even they are  only allowed to get a foot in the door because they aren't female. 

[Starkz]

2 hours ago, Maia said:

But then, nobody in ASOIAF is, except for people like Varys and Bronn, maybe. 

Exactly. Everyone has help to some degree, some people are just upset that I said Dany received a lot of help from her dragons.

[Clegane'sPup]

2 hours ago, Starkz said:

Exactly. Everyone has help to some degree, some people are just upset that I said Dany received a lot of help from her dragons.

Well, I ain't upset. It is my opinion that without the dragons Dany is powerless.

And ffs folks keep that troll word outta ya vocab.

_________________________________________

Some of the experiences the 13 year old (according to martin's Westeros standards) woman grown has experienced is in my opinion disturbing.

Dany & her brother  --- the beggar king --- were not taken seriously until King Bob and his council got a bit disturbed when they received word that the Targs became involved with a Khal.

Illyrio didn't think Dany would survive her ordeal with the Dothraki. Plus it is not revealed until book five that Varys & Illyrio had someone grooming an Aegon.

If Dany walked into the pyre with her fossilized eggs and walked out of the fire without her winged lizards she would be famous for surviving the fire.

What martin did was have the fossilized dragon eggs hatch. Unique, because dragons were thought to be extinct.

I can understand her dilemma, dead husband, dead child. Someone took Drogo's khalasar and Dany got the leftovers.

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys I    "Khal Pono will kill you. He was the first to abandon Drogo. Ten thousand warriors went with him. You have a hundred."

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys I    "You will not live long should you meet Khal Pono. Nor Khal Jhaqo, nor any of the others. You must go where they do not."

Clash of Kings - Daenerys      When Khal Drogo had lived, men trembled and made him gifts to stay his wrath. If they did not, he took their cities, wealth and wives and all. But his khalasar had been vast, while hers was meager.

Granted Dany accomplished leading her meager khalasar. That does not negate that the awe factor is the dragons.

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys III   "My brother and I were guests in Illyrio's manse for half a year. If he meant to sell us, he could have done it then."    "He did sell you," Ser Jorah said. "To Khal Drogo."     Dany flushed. He had the truth of it, but she did not like the sharpness with which he put it.

Hello, according to the above ^ Dany got sold off by her brother and Illyrio.

Illyrio did not think Dany would survive the Dothraki and it is revealed in book five that there was a plan involving an Aegon.

Do the Greyjoy brothers love Dany? Nope. She is an ends to a a means.

A Feast for Crows - The Reaver    When the kraken weds the dragon, brother, let all the world beware."    "What dragon?" said Victarion, frowning.    "The last of her line. They say she is the fairest woman in the world. Her hair is silver-gold, and her eyes are amethysts . . . but you need not take my word for it, brother. Go to Slaver's Bay, behold her beauty, and bring her back to me."

In the Ironborn chapters Vic and Euron want the 13-14 year old woman grown due to dragons hence the dragon horn that supposedly does some dragon binding.

A Feast for Crows - The Reaver    "I'll go to Slaver's Bay, aye. I'll find this dragon woman, and I'll bring her back." But not for you. You stole my wife and despoiled her, so I'll have yours. The fairest woman in the world, for me.

Without the dragons, there is no magical dragon queen. Without the dragons people would think the same as what is described below.

A Storm of Swords - Daenerys IV    "Woman, you bray like an ass, and make no more sense."   "Woman?" She chuckled. "Is that meant to insult me?      I would return the slap, if I took you for a man." Dany met his stare. "I am Daenerys Stormborn of House Targaryen, the Unburnt, Mother of Dragons, khaleesi to Drogo's riders, and queen of the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros."     "What you are," said Prendahl na Ghezn, "is a horselord's whore. When we break you, I will breed you to my stallion."

If Dany walked out of the pyre spouting her titles (Daenerys Stormborn, the Unburnt, Queen of the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros and Mother of Dragons."Mhysa!") without the winged lizards she would not have been able to accomplish what she has.

All of that stuff above has nothing to do with whether I like the character or not ---- it simply means that in my opinion Dany had no   power until the fossilized eggs hatched.

For Dany to achieve Queenship she has to get the two free range dragons under control. She has to get Drogon under control. The dragons are her power. People want her dragons. Some want them dead. Some want them live.

Targ dragons do not join happy family groups. October and the new Targ history book is coming but winter and the northern history can't be released and has to wait because all the mysterious Stark bs will do what?

 

[Maia]

11 hours ago, Starkz said:

Exactly. Everyone has help to some degree, some people are just upset that I said Dany received a lot of help from her dragons.

While nearly all other movers and shakers received a lot of help from the mere accident of their births. So, why fixate on her? Dragons may be becoming potentially formidable assets by the end of ADwD, but then, Dany payed a high price for them and she is facing greater obstacles than the competition. 

[Starkz]

8 hours ago, Maia said:

While nearly all other movers and shakers received a lot of help from the mere accident of their births. So, why fixate on her? Dragons may be becoming potentially formidable assets by the end of ADwD, but then, Dany payed a high price for them and she is facing greater obstacles than the competition. 

I don’t exactly remember how it started to be honest and I’m to lazy to go back, but this thread is about Dany and dragons outrank any type of help or support anyone else has vastly.

[Guest]

Dany's accomplishments arent plot armor.

[Darth Sidious]

On ‎9‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 5:25 AM, Maia said:

While nearly all other movers and shakers received a lot of help from the mere accident of their births. So, why fixate on her? Dragons may be becoming potentially formidable assets by the end of ADwD, but then, Dany payed a high price for them and she is facing greater obstacles than the competition. 

Samwell was enjoying dozens of square meals every day without having to plant a single crop seed.  The biggest crisis of Sansa's life until she fell in love with her Joffrey was making sure her embroidery wasn't crooked.  Tyrion had an expense account that allowed him to drink and play without having to do manual labor.  Princess Daenerys had to endure the insults and the hardships of begging throughout the Free Cities.  She was made to marry into an alien culture at an age when most noble girls would have been enjoying a carefree life.  She is deserving of those dragons. 

[Maia]

On 9/20/2018 at 7:55 PM, Starkz said:

I don’t exactly remember how it started to be honest and I’m to lazy to go back, but this thread is about Dany and dragons outrank any type of help or support anyone else has vastly.

Not really. They merely allowed her to gain resources that other powerful people already possessed due to accidents of their birth. In the future dragons have the potential to do so, but until the end of ADwD? Nope.

Even when you look at less advantaged important characters like Stannis or Jon, they profited greatly from having educations that male nobles receive and being put into positions where they could prove themselves as leaders due to their links to powerful families and their gender, etc.

All of these avenues were closed to Dany - we have seen that it is impossible for  women to earn respect, reputation and power on their own (by which I mean without inveigling themselves into a powerful man's bed and confidence) in these societies, since they don't have even the very, very slim chance of putting their foot in the door and distinguishing themselves through skill at arms, intelligence, business talent, etc. that common men have. In fact, it is much more difficult for women even to hold on to inherited power and wealth, for no other reason than bias.

We also learned from TWoIaF and previous hints in the series itself, that even huge, powerful dragons aren't everything. They didn't allow the Targaryens to conquer Dorne, nor would they have been sufficient to win and hold the Seven Kingdoms without very careful preparations, clever strategic decisions and tireless diplomatic work by the Conqueror himself and Queen Rhaenys.

[Artimicia]

Yeah like I was sorta of just saying elsewhere, the series would of been a lot more interesting if they had focused on the evolution of the Stark/Lannister thing all on it's own.

But Dragons and dragon blood and all of that mystically became important when their role in the series fluctuates violently.

I think that's why people enjoy often the beginning of the series but not the later books, because they are so narrowly focused on those realistic paradigms.

Like if the whole thing begins with Starks and Lannisters, then it should definitely end with them, one way or another.

About them, around them, all the prepositions that can be mustered.

I think the basic tragedy inherent within ASOIAF is that they have more, much more in common with each other than with other houses/groups, and certainly anything across the narrow sea, but because they also hate each other their legacy ends up becoming passed around and the province of the Dothraki, random mysterious groups like the Lord of Light, trader groups from Volantis, banks like the Iron Bank, and even organizations that are directly supposed to have NO autonomy whatsoever like the Kingsguard everything becomes a thing and dilutes the primary factors acting in creating a unique ASOIAF universe.

In short, they illustrate the real reason why so often the outsider groups gain an advantage on insider culture, and that's because the people who have the domain to begin with disagree and fall out and that gives everyone on the outside the way in.

Why does King's Landing Fall in the beginning? Starks and Lannisters, and that's why suddenly it's everyone's game but their own.

It's kind of like how historically Scotland and others would constantly have to rely on France and other's who may not share their values, because there was always basically a rivalry going on of one sort or another.

The most compelling way for GoT to end, isn't mystical dragon savior nonsense, but the millennia old rivalry between the houses that basically agree with each other but continue to fight over pride, finally come together and manage to acknowledge each other's strength and relevance, creating a sufficiently powerful bulwark to realize the dreams there always fraustrated by, destroy the white walkers or whatever other groups and reclaim it all in the name of their heritage.

 

Ok it's slightly cheesy, but still.

 

Jon Snow should of just been the ultimate side character, a kind of slight distant person that's popular with some but far away from the primary focus of the series, let alone the one that should be destined for the whole dynastic throne and all of that.

 

 

[Bowen Marsh]

21 minutes ago, Artimicia said:

Yeah like I was sorta of just saying elsewhere, the series would of been a lot more interesting if they had focused on the evolution of the Stark/Lannister thing all on it's own.

But Dragons and dragon blood and all of that mystically became important when their role in the series fluctuates violently.

I think that's why people enjoy often the beginning of the series but not the later books, because they are so narrowly focused on those realistic paradigms.

Like if the whole thing begins with Starks and Lannisters, then it should definitely end with them, one way or another.

About them, around them, all the prepositions that can be mustered.

I think the basic tragedy inherent within ASOIAF is that they have more, much more in common with each other than with other houses/groups, and certainly anything across the narrow sea, but because they also hate each other their legacy ends up becoming passed around and the province of the Dothraki, random mysterious groups like the Lord of Light, trader groups from Volantis, banks like the Iron Bank, and even organizations that are directly supposed to have NO autonomy whatsoever like the Kingsguard everything becomes a thing and dilutes the primary factors acting in creating a unique ASOIAF universe.

In short, they illustrate the real reason why so often the outsider groups gain an advantage on insider culture, and that's because the people who have the domain to begin with disagree and fall out and that gives everyone on the outside the way in.

Why does King's Landing Fall in the beginning? Starks and Lannisters, and that's why suddenly it's everyone's game but their own.

It's kind of like how historically Scotland and others would constantly have to rely on France and other's who may not share their values, because there was always basically a rivalry going on of one sort or another.

The most compelling way for GoT to end, isn't mystical dragon savior nonsense, but the millennia old rivalry between the houses that basically agree with each other but continue to fight over pride, finally come together and manage to acknowledge each other's strength and relevance, creating a sufficiently powerful bulwark to realize the dreams there always fraustrated by, destroy the white walkers or whatever other groups and reclaim it all in the name of their heritage.

 

Ok it's slightly cheesy, but still.

 

Jon Snow should of just been the ultimate side character, a kind of slight distant person that's popular with some but far away from the primary focus of the series, let alone the one that should be destined for the whole dynastic throne and all of that.

 

 

We all have our preferences.  I would have stopped reading the books if it only had the Starks and the Lannisters,  It;s the fantasy elements that I enjoy the most.  A story with only those two families and their struggles is not epic and it would not deserve more than one volume.

[Amris]

4 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said:

We all have our preferences.  I would have stopped reading the books if it only had the Starks and the Lannisters,  It;s the fantasy elements that I enjoy the most.  A story with only those two families and their struggles is not epic and it would not deserve more than one volume.

Same here.

[Artimicia]

I think to be more concrete... I think this GoT issue in general has gotten sensitive, will GRRM finish the series and all of that. Anyway I'm a semi seasoned reader and can remember this with Robert Jordan and others...

 

Honestly the man is getting really distracted, he's distracted by a crush on Daenaerys and the women of the story. ASOIAF F is fundamentally about the men in the books, even the older men, it's a series that is defined by Tywin Lannister and Ned Stark, period, it's defined by the rural rustic north and the slightly more cosmopolitan but still ruthless south, period. 

Now we have all this crap about Age of Heroes and Dunk and Egg and spin offs and stuff no one cares about and where he really has no idea where he's going. He's talking about Bran the builder and all sorts of peripheral side stuff, instead of trying to be so encompassing here, get the nuts and bolts right, get Lannisters and Starks right and end the series where it began, with a resolution involving them, and that's that. 

And the show will ideally try to reach something around those points also, although who knows if they really can manage that at this point. 

These things don't have to not end, they can totally end, its not this weird taught thing out there, but you shouldn't be distracted with all this excess stuff, then, it definitely won't get there. 

 

Scrap chosen one destiny nonsense about Jon and fire and dragons, make it about people make it about relations and realistic relations at that, simple, pure, and can get this thing to a finish line. 

[Amris]

1 hour ago, Artimicia said:

[snip]

Scrap chosen one destiny nonsense about Jon and fire and dragons, make it about people make it about relations and realistic relations at that, simple, pure, and can get this thing to a finish line. 

That is a perfectly valid opinion. And if you see Jon and fire and dragons as nonsense that's your prerogative and taste and I am not going to try to convert you.

One thing though: Why do you then read ASOIAF?

There are literary genres out there which skip the 'Jon and fire and dragons' nonsense. No one forces you to read High Fantasy if that's not your piece of cake.

[Amris]

To return to the original topic of the thread: 'Why did GRRM give Daenerys everything?'

We have argued quite exhaustively about the 'give everything part' of the question. I want to put that aside for a moment and look at the 'why' part.

Suppose Daenerys aquired quite a lot (even if its not 'everything') and leave aside the question whether she earned that (as some of us argue) or GRRM just 'gave' it to her like the OP implies. We can all agree on that Dany got very powerful over the books.

What I would like to inspect now is what reason does GRRM have to make Dany such a powerful force?

I can see several possibilities. The one I want to throw out here just now is that it may be that GRRM is setting her up as an antagonist of sorts. She is supposed to be the one invading Westeros after all. My take is that GRRM may be subverting the Dark Lord fantasy trope in her person. In a certain way she reminds me of Sauron.

If you pull the veil of excuses and justifications and abusing brother and whatnot aside and look behind the innocent young beautiful girl image - what remains?

A dragon queen who tries to amass a huge horde of barbarians (complete with a deserved reputation of cruelty and murder and mass-rape) and three fire-breathing monsters to invade another continent.

I am not trying to bash Dany. I just want to turn this discussion around a bit and point out that there may be this side of the coin to consider too: That behind the beautiful image we are getting presented in Dany we may have the 'evil dark overlord' trope to deal with.

And that leads me to the conclusion: part of why Dany 'gets so much' from GRRM (whether earned or not) is that GRRM wants to point out this subverted dark overlord trope. What happens when you take the 'evil dark Sauron' and make him into a beautiful young girl with very human weaknesses and human strengths. With understandable motivations and very understandable grievances. With a prior life of being abused and sold. With a desire to do good (which sometimes backfires).

Sauron suddenly isn't so bad anymore. At least not all bad. Tolkien made that part of his story a little to easy and onesided. That's what we are supposed to learn I think. Think of her as a kind of Sauron and suddenly you are not surprised why the story needs her powerful.

Now: please don't think I want to reduce Dany to Sauron. I am not even sure she really will play an 'evil' role in the end. Maybe her invasion will turn out to actually help save Westeros. Or at least maybe it won't be all bad. And maybe she even sacrifices herself. Who knows.

All I want is to point out that a part of the Dany background is the evil overlord trope and that that's the reason for her power. I don't think GRRM is 'giving' Dany because he loves her so much. I think he is because she needs to fulfill her 'overlord' function properly. And subvert it.

[Moiraine Sedai]

I see it differently, Amris.  Daenerys is powerful because ice and it's Stark toadies are powerful.  Ice and the Others are trying to turn Westeros into one giant freezer.  They are the gods of winter and the Starks are Kings of winter.  Somebody has to stop them.  Read the novel closely and you can see Bran, Jon, Sansa, Rickon, and Arya all turning dark.  Winter is their time and this is the time when people die.  Fire is the opposite of ice.  Fire is life giving.  Daenerys has to have enough power to destroy the Others, the wights, and their Stark tools.  The armies of ice that she sent to he'll at the trident were wighted northmen.  The Others control their wights through skin changing.  The same ability as the Starks.  Fire is warmth and light.  Ice is cold and dark.

[Quoth the raven,]

Dany has a challenging task.  To reshape the world.  The "everything" she has will help her carry out this mission.  It makes for a very fun reading.  That is the reason for having the dragons more than anything else.  It makes the story a helluva lot more fun.  The twist here is the girl got the dragons.  That breaks the usual plot line of the boy having the dragon.  We've had Dragonheart and Eragon.  George is giving us a different flavor by having the girl get the dragon instead of the boys.  

[Sigella]

20 hours ago, Amris said:

 

And that leads me to the conclusion: part of why Dany 'gets so much' from GRRM (whether earned or not) is that GRRM wants to point out this subverted dark overlord trope. What happens when you take the 'evil dark Sauron' and make him into a beautiful young girl with very human weaknesses and human strengths. With understandable motivations and very understandable grievances. With a prior life of being abused and sold. With a desire to do good (which sometimes backfires).

Sauron suddenly isn't so bad anymore. At least not all bad. Tolkien made that part of his story a little to easy and onesided. That's what we are supposed to learn I think. Think of her as a kind of Sauron and suddenly you are not surprised why the story needs her powerful.

This would be a pitfall imo. Sauron made slaves while Dany frees slaves. So exact opposites.

This dark overlord trope will certainly work against her in-story but maybe for her as well, grimness is good in the battlefield.

[Guest]

She's Galadriel with the One Ring, and everyone who has that much power is corrupted eventually, as Dany will be in the end. And fire is just as dangerous as ice. These are two ways the world could end. Robert Frost.