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Why did George give daenerys everything

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11 hours ago, Mon ami said:

True

 

The story would be better if Martin doesn't bring Jon back to life.  That's the only way the fans will take death seriously.  Reading the polls on this forum shows the majority believe Jon is coming back.  That is too predictable.  I don't care for the boy and would rather somebody else be the point of view character at the wall.

Jon isn’t even dead... the story would be a lot better if we didn’t have to read about Dany in Essos or Dany at all..  she hasn’t had anything to do with Westeros at this point and it’s been 5+ books.

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3 hours ago, Josette DuPres said:

Did he?  I thought he took more from her than he has any other woman.  Sure she was born with intelligence.  Being lovely is a gift.  But what came after was earned.  Her dragons and Unsullied were earned because she took a chance.  

The lead character should have what she needs to have an impact in the story.  A powerless person would not make for a compelling lead character because what they do is not going to matter in the bigger picture.  A regular person worries about rain for his crops and earning income.  It doesn't make for compelling reading.  A main character with dragons who happens to fight against the slave trade is great reading.  

Her fight against the slave trade is probably the worst reading in the book, considering she’s not even fighting it and mostly sitting in Meereen. GRRM calls it a knot for a reason, it’s likely going to be resolved with death and destruction or some poor story telling with all of the slavers just miraculously surrendering, if the slave trade even ends which isn’t palatable except in a fairy tale fiction story.

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14 hours ago, Mon ami said:

True

 

The story would be better if Martin doesn't bring Jon back to life.  That's the only way the fans will take death seriously.  Reading the polls on this forum shows the majority believe Jon is coming back.  That is too predictable.  I don't care for the boy and would rather somebody else be the point of view character at the wall.

Agreed. The Wall storyline would be so much better with the POV of someone actually interesting like say Alliser Thorne or Bowen Marsh.

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I never really understood the rivalry between Jon and Dany fans.  However, I think there is some ominous foreshadowing throughout the books that point to Dany taking a darker path in the Winds of Winter.  She seems to be setup with a whole cast of villains to seduce her towards faster, yet more violent, ways of achieving her goals; the Ironborn, Drothraki, dragons, Marwyn, Moqorro, and Tyrion.  More prophecy and magic, and taking what she believes is hers by right. 

There is the possibility that her entire arc in tWoW will be her sacking one Essosi city after the next; Meereen, Yunkai’i, Volantis, Pentos.

I disagree with those who feel she needs to be overpowered to do good in the world, typically it is the villain who tends to be overpowering, like the Others.  I think eventually she come back around and fight for the survival of mankind, but will leave a lot of death and destruction in her wake before she gets there.

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There are a lot of people who for some weird reasons resent the ultimate outcome of this story - that Dany and Jon will fall in love, marry, and have children. That's how this thing has been set up, that's what it is about, in the end, on the romantic level. They are the couple in this series. It is going to take a long way to get there, but it was there from the start.

I don't see many people having issues with Dany marrying Jon, but there are many people who really resent the idea that Jon might marry Dany, because they think Jon should marry other people, or because they resent Dany.

I don't recall (m)any people giving the impression they dislike the Dany-Jon thing because they don't like Jon. In fact, I, who are routinely branded as this evil Jon hater, have always said that Dany and Jon will marry in the end. I never said Jon is not deserving of the great Daenerys or other crap like that. But there are many people saying the opposite.

There is also trend going back a very long time in the fandom looking for clues that Dany is going to become Aerys 2.0 or some other such shit - whereas there is no similar trend for Jon Snow, the grandson of the Mad King, in this regard. Pretty much nobody tries to paint the picture of 'Jon Snow, the Evil Antagonist' in a manner anyone takes seriously.

In fact, until he was murdered, there was no question about the fact that he was following the path of a traditional hero. Now George's whole approach to magical resurrection makes it very likely that things are not so easy there. And many people have trouble seeing that.

I for one have no issue with Daenerys the Conqueress, or Dany killing a lot of (innocent) people. War is cruel and people have to die for things to change in such a savage world as this. But the mistake people seem to be making a lot is the idea that this is going to make her 'evil' or 'a villain' who is set up to fail within the framework of the overall story. And that's never going to happen. Dany is never going to be anything but one of the major protagonists and heroines of this story. She is clearly the most important female character and, by and far, the one who is the likeliest to actually to acquire the most power in the actual ruling department. Jon Snow has other spheres he can shine in - explore Others stuff, actually fight the Others, go on some traditional hero quest, do some sword-fighting, etc.

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13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't see many people having issues with Dany marrying Jon, but there are many people who really resent the idea that Jon might marry Dany, because they think Jon should marry other people, or because they resent Dany.

Then you haven't been paying attention, especially of late w/ the rabid [Jon] haters. And for the record, although we do disagree a lot more than we agree, I have never had you pegged as a Jon hater. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Then you haven't been paying attention, especially of late w/ the rabid [Jon] haters. And for the record, although we do disagree a lot more than we agree, I have never had you pegged as a Jon hater. 

Oh, I wasn't referring to you there. But, to be honest and correct about this, I couldn't recall right now who has done, so it is all fine ;-).

But I'm curious, who are those people suggesting Dany should fall in love with/marry?

As to the recent Jon hate thing there I could imagine that this might be due to there being a strong tendency throughout the years favor the 'hidden prince' over 'visible queen', with people pulling theories out of their asses like how it is clear that Drogon is destined for Jon or other stuff like that - in combination, of course, with the fact that you don't need to do much more than to piss at the Jon tree to get the kind of reaction a troll might want to get...

There are many people here who cannot discuss Jon Snow's actions throughout the series (especially some of the more questionable actions in ADwD) from a neutral point of view. It doesn't matter who did a certain action when one discusses the legal or moral merits of that action. But there is an atmosphere here that it is taken as a statement of faith if you do criticize this or that character.

For instance, my criticism of wildling culture is a criticism of just that - wildling culture. Not the wildlings as people. Vice versa, my criticism of Robb's stupid secessionist movement involving both the North and the Riverlands is not criticism of the Starks as such but the mere pointing out that it was a very stupid idea within the framework of the overall story. And to want this thing to continue is basically the same as wishing the heroes to fail - or the story to go into a direction it is not likely to go. When I say Ned was a foolish politician or that he betrayed his friend and king on his deathbed then this doesn't mean I don't like Ned. Ned is one of my favorite POVs in AGoT. The man has very great moments and I do follow him on most of his moral judgments. But I'm not here to continuously repeat which character I like or dislike.

I think my overall reputation of being a 'Dany fanboy' - when I in fact do not like Dany as a character very much (I like what she represents more than the person as described) - derives from my arguments as to why Jon Snow is not the promised prince - or not completely (the whole three heads of the dragon thing) along with the fact that I don't think he is 'the rightful king' or that I say one can make a good case that Dany has as good a claim as Aegon/Jon when one sees Dany as the anointed and chosen heir of Viserys III (who, in turn, was made Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne by his father, King Aerys II).

I also think many of those arguments that Dany will be vilified or hated upon her arrival are far-fetched simply due to the facts that dragons are very convincing symbols of power and legitimacy in this world. Yes, she might come with an army of foreigners, and that is going to be held against her, but many Westerosi will still declare for her.

Edited by Lord Varys

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21 hours ago, Starkz said:

George said he liked all of his POV characters.. not sure why you guys are singling specific ones out.

Also not sure why you’re wishing death on one of the only good morale characters in the books.. but whatever.

The book readers are really divided between these two characters.   You bash one of them and that person's fans will bash the other character.  It goes that way in every forum that I have been to.  I'm in the Dany camp.  I take it you're in Jon's side.  

22 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Dany is the hero of the story.  Great power is needed to help the slaves.  Prayers won't be enough.  She is the only one who can be trusted with this level of power.

Heheh :) Normally it would depend on who prays and what they throw to the gods.  

 

9 hours ago, Josette DuPres said:

Did he?  I thought he took more from her than he has any other woman.  Sure she was born with intelligence.  Being lovely is a gift.  But what came after was earned.  Her dragons and Unsullied were earned because she took a chance.  

The lead character should have what she needs to have an impact in the story.  A powerless person would not make for a compelling lead character because what they do is not going to matter in the bigger picture.  A regular person worries about rain for his crops and earning income.  It doesn't make for compelling reading.  A main character with dragons who happens to fight against the slave trade is great reading.  

The protagonists good intentions are not much use if she can't do anything to help the people.  Wishing won't make it so but power and influence can go towards achieving the goal.  She is the heroine because she sees the injustice of slavery.  She feels compassion for them.  And she has the means to stop the masters.  

 

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Only 89 selfies today said:

The book readers are really divided between these two characters.   You bash one of them and that person's fans will bash the other character.  It goes that way in every forum that I have been to.  I'm in the Dany camp.  I take it you're in Jon's side.  

Heheh :) Normally it would depend on who prays and what they throw to the gods.  

 

The protagonists good intentions are not much use if she can't do anything to help the people.  Wishing won't make it so but power and influence can go towards achieving the goal.  She is the heroine because she sees the injustice of slavery.  She feels compassion for them.  And she has the means to stop the masters.  

 

I like both characters but I don’t pretend to make them into something they’re not. Nor do I wish death on either of them which is rather extreme and cruel. Some people on these forums seem to try to paint Jon as the worst character in the books whom should die while conjecturing that Dany is some great goddess who does/can do no wrong and that everyone except her is to blame and vice versa.Why Jon and Dany get compared so often is beyond me though, most likely because they are the two main characters imo. Though I find it funny and interesting how so often Jon Snow the supposed bastard of Ned Stark and leader of a group of rapists,murderers and thieves so often gets compared to a Queen with 3 dragons and formidable army. Must mean he’s doing something right.

Edited by Starkz

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I like Dany's character, because she's the tropy traditional hero of the story, who is being forced to face some of the challenges traditional hero stories ussually skip.  And then her solutions don't ussually work out.

The slavery one is perfect example of that.  Yay, you freed the slaves, but now you have to see the horrific consequences of doing so without any kind of plan or forethought.  Oh and all your attempts to fix thigns just make things progressively worse.

Of course, i also don't like dany's story, because by the old gods she's still in essos and its book 5.

 

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, I wasn't referring to you there.

I know. :)

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

But, to be honest and correct about this, I couldn't recall right now who has done, so it is all fine ;-).

But I'm curious, who are those people suggesting Dany should fall in love with/marry?

I don't think Jon and Dany are destined to marry and have babies and live happily ever after. I don't think Jon will survive to the very end, and he is one of my absolute faves. I can't pick just one, the best I can do is pick 4, and Jon is one of them. And I don't want him to be king of Westeros, and if he never goes farther south than the Neck, I'll be very happy. As to Dany, I'd like her to get to be w/ someone who will make her happy. I don't think she'll turn into the evil Mad Queen either. But she will make many more mistakes, same as all the other main PoVs. 

But irt what you said a bit further down, about the reaction from some whenever Jon is criticised... I don't know. Maybe you don't read every post in full, but the really ridiculous reactions come from the rabid haters. Seriously, some of the arguments are truly pathetic. Like, "Jon is going to stay dead dead because I don't like him". Laughable, of course. But what truly makes me scratch my head is, there are those who are willing to come across as someone with severe reading comprehension... erhm... 'difficulties' just because they don't like a fictional character. WTF. I mean, is it really worth it? Truly mind-boggling. 

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12 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don't think Jon and Dany are destined to marry and have babies and live happily ever after.

Not happily ever after, perhaps, but they will fall in love, they will have semi-divine, superhuman sex, they will marry, and they will have a miracle child (or perhaps twins, just to be sure). Who can make a barren dragon womb quicken better than the fire of the semen of an undead dragon ;-)?

12 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don't think Jon will survive to the very end, and he is one of my absolute faves. I can't pick just one, the best I can do is pick 4, and Jon is one of them. And I don't want him to be king of Westeros, and if he never goes farther south than the Neck, I'll be very happy. 

My usual take on the thing since ADwD is that Jon will, most likely, die before the series is over. He has been killed. He won't sit on a throne, play with his children, and personally behead people with Blackfyre in his free time. That is not the kind of thing people who have been killed in fantasy novels do. Even Frodo didn't return to the Shire to have a family there.

This is not an idea I like particularly - I don't like the whole Jon assassination thing all that much. I wasn't horrified by that when I read it over two weeks before the publication of ADwD all those years ago, since it was always clear that he would not stay that - but I didn't like the plot and still don't like it. I've made my peace with the idea that this might be the start of some new strange plot for Jon, but at this point I really don't see the purpose of this whole thing.

Pretty sure, though, that it can't lead him into immediate 'super hero/leader' territory simply because the way this must be set up. The resurrection will come at a price, and he will have to go to the same dark place TWoW is going to take all the others. This is going to be Euron's book, not Jon's or Dany's.

But this doesn't mean he and Dany won't have fun before the end.

Pretty sure all of them will have to go down below the Neck. The Others will see to that.

12 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

As to Dany, I'd like her to get to be w/ someone who will make her happy. I don't think she'll turn into the evil Mad Queen either. But she will make many more mistakes, same as all the other main PoVs.

Overall, there aren't many candidates for her to marry. She is a Targaryen, after all. She has Tyrion, but they won't be happy together in any romantic sense. She will likely be happy with Daario as long as he is around, but the won't be there forever.

She has made quite a few mistakes in ADwD, and before. I'm sure she is going to have to pay some price for the Dothraki, and her heart has to harden to a considerable degree to make a Second Dance even a theoretical possibility - much less a war that's actually fought.

That's why I think Strong Belwas will try to murder her on Illyrio's behalf, either injuring her severely and/or killing a person/people that are truly dear to her. The whole thing with Aegon has to be personal if it is going to be a thing at all.

12 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

But irt what you said a bit further down, about the reaction from some whenever Jon is criticised... I don't know. Maybe you don't read every post in full, but the really ridiculous reactions come from the rabid haters. Seriously, some of the arguments are truly pathetic. Like, "Jon is going to stay dead dead because I don't like him". Laughable, of course. But what truly makes me scratch my head is, there are those who are willing to come across as someone with severe reading comprehension... erhm... 'difficulties' just because they don't like a fictional character. WTF. I mean, is it really worth it? Truly mind-boggling. 

I usually don't read posts that don't make much sense. 

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On August 20, 2018 at 8:14 PM, manchester_babe said:

Why did Geroge give Dany everything in book 1, inhuman beauty, dragons, her becoming queen in the end. 

Because she is the queen and queens get everything. She was given these things because she deserves them. 

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8 hours ago, Starkz said:

Jon isn’t even dead... the story would be a lot better if we didn’t have to read about Dany in Essos or Dany at all..  she hasn’t had anything to do with Westeros at this point and it’s been 5+ books.

I don't think Jon is dead either. I think she and Jon are going to marry even though it is against everything Westeros says, because the Targaryens are above the laws. 

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29 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I never understood the whole Jon vs Dany thing. That some readers put down one thinking it builds up the other.  

Yeah, it's really weird. It's fine to not like either one, or to prefer one over the other. But the truly rabid hating that disregards the actual text in favour of idiotic claims is completely beyond my comprehension. 

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Not happily ever after, perhaps, but they will fall in love, they will have semi-divine, superhuman sex, they will marry, and they will have a miracle child (or perhaps twins, just to be sure). Who can make a barren dragon womb quicken better than the fire of the semen of an undead dragon ;-)?

I don't like the sound of any of that! :D

 

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

My usual take on the thing since ADwD is that Jon will, most likely, die before the series is over. He has been killed. He won't sit on a throne, play with his children, and personally behead people with Blackfyre in his free time. That is not the kind of thing people who have been killed in fantasy novels do. Even Frodo didn't return to the Shire to have a family there.

This is not an idea I like particularly - I don't like the whole Jon assassination thing all that much. I wasn't horrified by that when I read it over two weeks before the publication of ADwD all those years ago, since it was always clear that he would not stay that - but I didn't like the plot and still don't like it. I've made my peace with the idea that this might be the start of some new strange plot for Jon, but at this point I really don't see the purpose of this whole thing.

I see. I kind of agree. Or better said, I would agree if I thought he'd died died. But I don't, so... we'll have to wait for Winds to see how it will turn out. 

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Pretty sure, though, that it can't lead him into immediate 'super hero/leader' territory simply because the way this must be set up. The resurrection will come at a price, and he will have to go to the same dark place TWoW is going to take all the others. This is going to be Euron's book, not Jon's or Dany's.

Really? I'm not so sure... and hope you're wrong. I can take some Euron as the antagonist and to stir shit up and all, but I don't think he'll be so centre stage as you suggest, and I certainly hope he isn't.

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But this doesn't mean he and Dany won't have fun before the end.

Pretty sure all of them will have to go down below the Neck. The Others will see to that.

I know, it was just some wishful thinking and emphasising that I don't care at all for the idea of Jon becoming King of the 7K.

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Overall, there aren't many candidates for her to marry. She is a Targaryen, after all. She has Tyrion, but they won't be happy together in any romantic sense. She will likely be happy with Daario as long as he is around, but the won't be there forever.

I'm no expert but I've always had a feeling that Dany will eventually realise that she doesn't want any of that. All the things she believes are her birthright and all that. But it's really just a gut feeling. 

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

She has made quite a few mistakes in ADwD, and before. I'm sure she is going to have to pay some price for the Dothraki, and her heart has to harden to a considerable degree to make a Second Dance even a theoretical possibility - much less a war that's actually fought.

Very likely.

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That's why I think Strong Belwas will try to murder her on Illyrio's behalf, either injuring her severely and/or killing a person/people that are truly dear to her. The whole thing with Aegon has to be personal if it is going to be a thing at all.

Very much agree w/ the bold. But had never thought about Strong Belwas like that. Interesting. 

 

I usually don't read posts that don't make much sense. 

Now that is a smart decision. I should do the same.

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11 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah, it's really weird. It's fine to not like either one, or to prefer one over the other. But the truly rabid hating that disregards the actual text in favour of idiotic claims is completely beyond my comprehension. 

This whole thing is going back a very long time, and back before ADwD were trying to prop up Jon as this 'Dany rival' who would challenge her claim upon her arrival, etc. - not to mention loathing and dismissing the entire Aegon plot while it was just a theory based on certain hints because 'putting Dany in her place' was Jon's job.

Later people disliked the Aegon plot and dismissed its importance for the overall plot by pointing to Jon, too. And so on.

There are a lot of people out there who like their own ideas/wishes more than the ideas the structure of the series and the hints in the text indicate.

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I don't like the sound of any of that! :D

Well, it is all based on the talk from George while they were making season 1 of the shitty thing that 'everything is about Dany and Jon' - this has to mean more than just that they are aunty and nephew or them watching some blue flowers together.

Quote

I see. I kind of agree. Or better said, I would agree if I thought he'd died died. But I don't, so... we'll have to wait for Winds to see how it will turn out. 

Reread the scene. And then read Cat's death scene. Cressen's death scene. Merrett's death scene, Pate's death scene, Will's death scene. Then compare them to the fake death scenes - Davos in ACoK, Arya in ASoS, Brienne in AFfC. And then tell me Jon's death scene gives any indication he may not have been killed then and there.

There is a slim possibility that he wasn't killed then and there, but it is not very likely. And even if that was the case then he would most definitely die unless they were using magic to save him - because normal medicine would not be able to save him.

And then ask yourself what on earth would be the point of him not dying in that scene? Why have him crippled by severe injuries that will likely mean a considerable time of recovery? That would just be a long filler. Not to mention that we got introduced to the entire second life thing (which was completely unknown as a concept before ADwD!) which would conveniently allow Jon to actually survive his own death in a decent shape, at least for time, while his body is resurrected.

If George wanted Jon just to explore being a skinchanger he could have just have him very vivid dreams, take some exotic drugs, or some other such things. There was no need to use this whole assassination plot there. 

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Really? I'm not so sure... and hope you're wrong. I can take some Euron as the antagonist and to stir shit up and all, but I don't think he'll be so centre stage as you suggest, and I certainly hope he isn't.

Oh, I meant him being the guy really getting things going in the next book. Not sure we'll see him often in the chapters, but if there is a guy who is going to cast his shadow on Westeros in the next book it will be Euron. It is supposed to be a very dark book, after all, and a dark book needs its dark lord. We won't get the Others on the south side of the Wall in the next book, most likely. 

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I know, it was just some wishful thinking and emphasising that I don't care at all for the idea of Jon becoming King of the 7K.

Oh, he might not, but either he or Dany should do the job. If they don't, the series won't get a proper closure. Tyrion is not up for the job as king, and some regency thing for Dany/Jon's love child won't do, considering how George has set up 'regency eras' to work (both Aegon III's and Tommen's). This series needs some form of proper closure. We have to buy the idea that the gang is not going to be poisoned by Littlefinger (2.0) five minutes after the curtain falls.

We might get some decent folk like Davos, Brienne, Arianne, Asha, Sansa, etc. advising the new monarch, but neither of those people could actually keep the thing together or preside over a restored peace.

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I'm no expert but I've always had a feeling that Dany will eventually realise that she doesn't want any of that. All the things she believes are her birthright and all that. But it's really just a gut feeling. 

She doesn't *really* want to go to Westeros. She was never there, and what she thinks of as home is in Braavos. Who she is, who she is descended from, etc. is just a shield to her. Back in AGoT her pedigree and lineage is all she has. Without that, she is just some blond girl.

In ADwD Westeros is pretty much irrelevant to her - and if she goes there (which she is not doing right now) then what Tyrion and Marwyn and Moqorro and Quaithe are going to tell her is going to do the trick, not her desire to sit in daddy's chair. She will come to help, not kill them all. And the reason why she is going to come with the people she is going to come is because they, too, will see her as a savior with a mission.

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Very much agree w/ the bold. But had never thought about Strong Belwas like that. Interesting. 

I've tossed that around a few times already. I really never liked the idea of Belwas being just a fat guy with no point but bad comic relief. And when he actually survived the poison in ADwD I really got suspicious. Groleo is dead now, but what has the fat guy done to stay alive? He may be a hidden dagger at Dany's throat, one Illyrio will use when he and Varys conclude that they don't need Dany anymore (in Westeros). It was always a mystery what purpose this guy had from the start, but very few people actually think about him a lot - which is actually the kind of assassin Illyrio would use if he wanted to kill somebody he cannot get close otherwise.

I expect such an attempt to come before Dany even sets foot on Westerosi soil, allowing things to take up steam instead of them actually doing negotiations before things escalate. Could even be that Aegon and Arianne send envoys to a Free City to treat with Dany there - and if things go sour then Belwas is making his move.

Edited by Lord Varys

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I agree with @Lord Varys, Jon and Dany will be together at some point.  One of them will not survive, maybe both.  I think fAegon is a foil for Dany, in that his legitimacy will forever remain ambiguous, and her vision in the HotU will lead her to destroy him as a pretender.  Then, somehow Jon’s legitimacy will be outed and will be pretty much undeniable, and Dany will re-evaluate her years long crusade for what was hers by right.  More than that, though, Jon is a scarred up warrior guy that she’ll be attracted to.  

People have spent years debating who are the three heads of the dragon; I think it’s just Jon.  

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12 hours ago, Starkz said:

Pretty sure the point is she utilizes her power poorly and causes a  lot of damage because of it.

If my sibling or child is a mass murder and evil I’m not feeling any care towards them besides regret.

Based on how relationships between real serial killers, murderers, etc and their families are, your reaction would be extremely unusual. I'd actually find it troubling if anyone could so easily cut off emotional bonds with a family member, unless they had a poor relationship with them to begin with.

1 hour ago, King Ned Stark said:

I agree with @Lord Varys, Jon and Dany will be together at some point.  One of them will not survive, maybe both.  I think fAegon is a foil for Dany, in that his legitimacy will forever remain ambiguous, and her vision in the HotU will lead her to destroy him as a pretender.  Then, somehow Jon’s legitimacy will be outed and will be pretty much undeniable, and Dany will re-evaluate her years long crusade for what was hers by right.  More than that, though, Jon is a scarred up warrior guy that she’ll be attracted to.  

People have spent years debating who are the three heads of the dragon; I think it’s just Jon.  

But wouldn't that be explored with Aegon?

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8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I really never liked the idea of Belwas being just a fat guy with no point but bad comic relief. And when he actually survived the poison in ADwD I really got suspicious. Groleo is dead now, but what has the fat guy done to stay at life? He may be a hidden dagger at Dany's throat, one Illyrio will use when he and Varys conclude that they don't need Dany anymore (in Westeros). It was always a mystery what purpose this guy had from the start, but very few people actually think about him a lot - which is actually the kind of assassin Illyrio would use if he wanted to kill somebody he cannot get close otherwise.

Very interesting. Do you think that's why Illyrio sent Barristan with Strong Belwas instead of possibly sending Barristan to (f)Aegon? Illyrio's and Varys' reasoning being that if Dany excepted Barristan in her service that there was a good chance he'd become a close part of her inner circle since he knew her family for so long and once saved her father and all that. Then with Barristan getting close to Dany then Strong Belwas would presumably as well. There was always the chance Dany could have named him a traitor for serving the Baratheons and sent Barristan and possibly Belwas away, but since everything happened the way it has the gamble paid off in a huge way if that was indeed Varys/Illyrio's plan.

Edited by Ralphis Baratheon

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