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Konrad S

The Vale and Dorne (Possible spoilers All including TWOW)

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The Vale:

1: Is there possibly any connection between First Men and Andal houses and the politics of the Vale?

We know that Petyr Baelish strongest supporters are Lynderly, Corbray, and Grafton. It also seems like Waxley could be another supporter.

We also know that the Lords Declarant is made up of House Royce, Waynwood, Hunter, Redfort, Templeton, and Belmore. With their all vassals. 

The strongest ones seem to be Royce, Redfort, and Hunter.

Now Andal and First Men houses:

Corbray, and Grafton we know and Andals as well as the Arryns. Lynderly could likely be andals when you hear the name it sounds andal and also a very alike house name Manderly is andal . Man-der-ly = Lyn-der-ly ?

Waxley also seems quite fitting to be andal as it is a knightly house.

So Petyr Baelishes supporters seem to be mainly of Andal Origin.

The Lords Declarant is made up of 6 houses 9-10 if u count known vassals: Royce with Shett, Tollet, and Coldwater, Waynwood with Hardyng, Belmore, Templeton, Hunter, and Redfort. The ones who stick longest with Royce as of yet are his vassals, Hunter and Redfort. Now Hunter, Royce, Redfort aswell as Shett, and Coldwater are first men. Tollet and Hardyng are andal but they are just vassals so probably only follow their lieges. The less loyal Lords Declarant is Templeton, Waynwood, and Belmore. Belmore is First men, Templeton is andal and Waynwood is the one I'm not sure about. First men tend to be short or if they are longer made out of two words or what sound like two words like Tall-Hart, Bel(l)-more, Cold-water, Red-fort, Black-wood. Not sure if Wayn-wood, therefore, is andal or first men. Yron-wood which sounds similar I believe is first men but I'm not 100% about that. Now the less loyal one seem to be Belmore, Waynwood, and Templeton, the 2 we do not know is andal I believe was bribed while LF's goal to get Templeton was to befriend him. 

So the question is there any connection?

2: What changes does the Lords Declarant want for the Vale and is there any connection again to the Andal-First Men divide?

Dorne: 

1: Is there any connection between Sandy, Salty, and Stony Dornishmen and their loyalty to Martells and what houses are classed as which? 

2: If Yronwood where to rebel, do they have any allies and what motive or what goal could they have with a rebellion? Just power for the own house?

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On ‎8‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 6:41 PM, Konrad S said:

The ones who stick longest with Royce as of yet are his vassals, Hunter and Redfort.

Are you sure Hunter and Redfort are Royce vassals? I didn't know that.

I don't know if any of them are directly influenced by divided loyalties between Andals and First Men. However many houses who can trace their lineage back to the First Men do tend to have a slightly different conception of honour, loyalty, etc. The Royces being a clear example of that. In that sense, those who have a strong First Men tradition might have a harder time dealing with a man like Littlefinger.

On ‎8‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 6:41 PM, Konrad S said:

Dorne: 

1: Is there any connection between Sandy, Salty, and Stony Dornishmen and their loyalty to Martells and what houses are classed as which? 

 

Again, only indirectly. I think the Yronwoods' opposition to the Martells boils down to them having a history of being kings, and their being powerful in their own right. Similar to the Boltons in that sense.

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On 8/23/2018 at 6:52 AM, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Are you sure Hunter and Redfort are Royce vassals? I didn't know that.

Nor can I find anything in the books or the Wiki to indicate Houses Hunter and Redfort are vassals to House Royce.

 

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On 8/29/2018 at 10:55 PM, Legitimate_Bastard said:

Nor can I find anything in the books or the Wiki to indicate Houses Hunter and Redfort are vassals to House Royce.

 

They aren’t what the original post meant was vassals of House Royce, plus Hunter and Redfort

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Waynwood is of First Men origin. Wayn is an old word for wagon - as in wainwright. First Men names tend to have something to do with an occupation. The Waynwoods of Ironoaks must have made wagon wheels back in the day or something.

And I would agree that Lynderly is probably an Andal name, but I am pretty sure Manderly has a First Men origin. The name comes from the Mander river.

I don't really think that the divide along these lines is intentional tho. The older houses tend to be the more powerful ones. So the likes of Royce and Redfort and Waynwood and the other Lords Declarant are clearly among the most powerful houses in the Vale. It just so happens that the two most powerful houses of Andal origin are probably Corbray and Grafton. Grafton is from Gulltown so of course Littlefinger would have familiarity with them. He'd also be more familiar with Corbray since they're from the Fingers. Waynwood, Hunter, Royce and Redfort are all from the Vale proper so they are always going to be more well-to-do than the likes of Corbray and it makes sense that they'd band together in their opposition to Littlefinger.

On 8/21/2018 at 1:41 PM, Konrad S said:

Dorne: 

1: Is there any connection between Sandy, Salty, and Stony Dornishmen and their loyalty to Martells and what houses are classed as which? 

This classification was just something Daeron the Young Dragon came up with. It's not a real thing and probably not something the Dornish ever think about. The orphans of the Greenblood tend to have retained more of their Rhoynish culture so perhaps they might feel a connection to the descendants of Nymeria. But the classification doesn't really apply to nobility so much as the commoners since nobility are all going to be intermarried anyway.

 

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This is probably a little late for a reply but since I never replied I figured out I should probably.

On 5/20/2019 at 10:15 PM, McGuv19 said:

They aren’t what the original post meant was vassals of House Royce, plus Hunter and Redfort

Yeah sorry for my bad spelling what I meant was exactly as McGuv19 kindly pointed out the Royce's vassals plus the Redforts and Hunters.

On 5/22/2019 at 3:20 PM, Syl of Syl said:

Waynwood is of First Men origin. Wayn is an old word for wagon - as in wainwright. First Men names tend to have something to do with an occupation. The Waynwoods of Ironoaks must have made wagon wheels back in the day or something.

Well that was what I thought, but I didn't know the occupation part. That could probably be useful when trying to figure out Andal vs First men houses.

On 5/22/2019 at 3:20 PM, Syl of Syl said:

And I would agree that Lynderly is probably an Andal name, but I am pretty sure Manderly has a First Men origin. The name comes from the Mander river.

 

Yeah not sure why I thought that house Manderly is of andal origin, I believe I probably thought of them have andal traditions which the rest of The North doesn't have.

On 5/22/2019 at 3:20 PM, Syl of Syl said:

This classification was just something Daeron the Young Dragon came up with. It's not a real thing and probably not something the Dornish ever think about.

Oh okay, I thought the Sandy-Salty-Stony division had much bigger importance.

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On 8/21/2018 at 1:41 PM, Konrad S said:

The Vale:

1: Is there possibly any connection between First Men and Andal houses and the politics of the Vale?

Mountains of the Moon vs the rest? There seems to be lingering First Men tendencies, but the Vale was the entrance point of the Andals. I would think that they would be overwhelmingly of Andal ancestry. Customs or no customs.

On 8/21/2018 at 1:41 PM, Konrad S said:

We know that Petyr Baelish strongest supporters are Lynderly, Corbray, and Grafton. It also seems like Waxley could be another supporter.

We also know that the Lords Declarant is made up of House Royce, Waynwood, Hunter, Redfort, Templeton, and Belmore. With their all vassals. 

The strongest ones seem to be Royce, Redfort, and Hunter.

TBD regarding the strength. I would say that Yohn Royce is the most powerful Arryn bannerman though.

On 8/21/2018 at 1:41 PM, Konrad S said:

 

2: What changes does the Lords Declarant want for the Vale and is there any connection again to the Andal-First Men divide?

They want Baelish to leave and for one of them to rule as regent until Robert comes of age. That and likely to marry one of their daughters off while want what vassals most, more power and $$.

On 8/21/2018 at 1:41 PM, Konrad S said:

Dorne: 

1: Is there any connection between Sandy, Salty, and Stony Dornishmen and their loyalty to Martells and what houses are classed as which? 

I do not think that we have enough information to say that there is a connection. Based upon what we know, Dorne has several ethnic groups all loyal to the Martells. The houses by the Marches are Stoney, Salty are on the coasts, and the Sandy inbetween.  

 

Stoney: Dayne, Fowlers, Yronwoods

Salty: Martells

Sandy: Ullers

On 8/21/2018 at 1:41 PM, Konrad S said:

2: If Yronwood where to rebel, do they have any allies and what motive or what goal could they have with a rebellion? Just power for the own house?

All we know is that they are or were the second strongest power in Dorne. For all we know, their fellow Stoney dornishmen are the Martell's bffs.

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39 minutes ago, nyser1 said:

Mountains of the Moon vs the rest? There seems to be lingering First Men tendencies, but the Vale was the entrance point of the Andals. I would think that they would be overwhelmingly of Andal ancestry. Customs or no customs.

Yeah, but when you think about it, no. 

LF: has supporters in the vale: Grafton, the south: Waxley, the north: Lynderly and Corbray.

The Lords Declarant has both houses Coldwater and Belmore in the north/MOTM.

1 hour ago, nyser1 said:

TBD regarding the strength. I would say that Yohn Royce is the most powerful Arryn bannerman though.

I agree, they have 2 lordly houses as vassals and seem to have the respect of the other houses.

1 hour ago, nyser1 said:

All we know is that they are or were the second strongest power in Dorne. For all we know, their fellow Stoney dornishmen are the Martell's bffs.

Would their old vassals the Blackmonts and Wyls possibly support them?

 

1 hour ago, nyser1 said:

Stoney: Dayne, Fowlers, Yronwoods

Salty: Martells

Sandy: Ullers

Stony: Wyl, Dayne, Yronwood, Blackmont, Fowler

Salty: Martell, Gargalen, Dalt, Jordayne?, Toland

Sandy: Qorgyle, Uller, Allyrion?????, Vaith????

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