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Prince Viserion

Will Daenerys turn to any religion?

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On 9/1/2018 at 4:29 AM, Rufus Snow said:

I believe she also understands the truth of old Valyria: where all the gods are honoured, none is honoured.

How do you figure that? (the emboldened part) That doesn't make any sense to me. Where all gods are honored, NONE are? Is that like, if all children are fed, they all go hungry? If everybody is given an education, they all end up ignorant? If everybody passes a test, they've all failed?

And just how does "old Valyria" come into the picture?

1 hour ago, Son of Man said:

Religion provides structure and helps create a value system. 

That's the man-made religions, the ones designed to keep the population in line, living together peacefully,  preserving the status quo power structure. Ethics and responsibility can exist perfectly well outside the straitjacket of "organized religion" - look at Daenerys's basic decency and goodness, although she sees no reason or need to cling to some kind of imaginary, cloud-dwelling supernatural superbeing.

What she has done so far is let her people believe what they will, unless it involves harming others. By having no zelot-like "faith" of her own, she can be tolerant of others. By not being "a believer", she can administer the law, with whatever flexibility and mercy might be appropriate.

Dany doesn't need "a religion."

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7 hours ago, zandru said:

How do you figure that? (the emboldened part) That doesn't make any sense to me. Where all gods are honored, NONE are? Is that like, if all children are fed, they all go hungry? If everybody is given an education, they all end up ignorant? If everybody passes a test, they've all failed?

And just how does "old Valyria" come into the picture? 

By reference to TWoIaF where the religious history of Old Valyria is explored, especially its history of wild swings between tolerance and intolerance. Particularly in reference to the number of religious exiles from Valyria who establish their own colonies.

Quote

The World of Ice and Fire - The Free Cities: Norvos

Like her sister cities Lorath and Qohor, the Free City of Norvos as we know her today was originally founded by religious dissidents from Valyria. At the height of her power, the Freehold was home to a hundred temples; some had tens of thousands of worshippers, some precious few, but no faith was forbidden in Valyria, nor were any exalted above the others.

Many Valyrians worshipped more than one god, turning to different deities according to their needs; more, it is said, worshipped none at all. Most regarded freedom of faith as a hallmark of any truly advanced civilization. Yet to some, this plethora of gods was a source of continuing grievance. "The man who honors all the gods honors none at all," a prophet of the Lord of Light, R'hllor the Red, once famously declared. And even at the height of its glory, the Freehold was home to many who believed fiercely in their own particular god or goddess and regarded all others as false idols, frauds, or demons, bent on deceiving mankind.

Dozens of such sects flourished in Valyria, sometimes quarreling violently with one another. Inevitably, some found the tolerance of the Freehold to be intolerable and set out into the wilderness to found cities of their own, godly cities where only the "true faith" would be practiced. We have already spoken of the followers of the Blind God Boash who founded Lorath and what befell them there. Qohor was settled by worshippers of that grim deity known only as the Black Goat, as shall be related shortly. But the sect that settled Norvos is as strange, or stranger, than either of these, and far more secretive. Even the very name of their god is revealed only to initiates. That he is a stern deity cannot be doubted, for his priests wear hair shirts and untanned hides and practice ritual flagellation as part of their worship. Once initiated, they are forbidden to shave or cut their hair.

 

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Throughout her arc she hasn't been influenced much by religion save how they view her. Certainly she doesn't have anything resembling devotion to any of the religions she's come across. You'd think she'd end up having to at least pay lip service to the Seven if she's to invade Westeros, but honestly it really doesn't matter much. She's going to be coming across with an army of slave soldiers, paid mercenaries, Dothraki barbarians and Ironborn plunderers. She's not going to be viewed in a positive light and is more likely to inspire allegiance by fear rather than devotion.

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Many people are going to lose faith in their old gods and lords when hunger comes during the long night.  The people of the north are having to compete with savage Wildlings for food, thanks to a certain Lord commander.  Cersei and Euron will have done damage in the south.  I think the people may welcome a new religion.   A Dothraki army will not be unwelcome because it will be led by a Targaryen.  The people will be so tired of ice and they will welcome the dragons.  They will be so turned off by winter, the weirwoods, and the cold that they will look to Rhllor.

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7 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

By reference to TWoIaF w

Thanks for the quote! It's been awhile (too long) since I've worked through The World of Ice & Fire (but I got it signed by GRRM just last month!) I still see no sense in the formulation of "if everything ... then nothing." I know you were quoting, but just sayin'...

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1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

She's going to be coming across with an army of slave soldiers, paid mercenaries, Dothraki barbarians and Ironborn plunderers.

Sorry, but Daenerys has no "slave soldiers." Don't you recall that she freed all the Unsullied right off, and told them all they were free to go, or to stay and serve her voluntarily? We also don't yet know about the Ironborn. Victarion's voyage to Meereen has not yet been completed, let alone his "courting" Daenerys in his brother's stead -- and, in fact, Dany is still stranded far away on the Dothraki Sea and thus not even unavailable.

At this point, it's still greatly theoretical whether Daenerys and her dragons and all the rest, ever get to Westeros. Meanwhile, Young Griff & Jon Connington are conquering the east coast, moving up towards King's Landing, making diplomatic contact with Dorne, and could be a major force to contend with, should Dany ever arrive.

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All said, I think Stannis Baratheon made a major mistake in attempting to impose a new, foreign religion on everyone as a condition of bending the knee. I further think that Daenerys would be foolish to try the same ploy, particularly with some stupid, made-up thing.

And my apologies for all the posts - I wanted to keep the topics separate (my excuse.)

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1 minute ago, zandru said:

Sorry, but Daenerys has no "slave soldiers." Don't you recall that she freed all the Unsullied right off, and told them all they were free to go, or to stay and serve her voluntarily?

Do you really think the lords of Westeros are going to care about that distinction? Most of the lords of Westeros still think Joffrey and Tommen are Robert's children, or just don't care if they aren't. They were slaves and they obey her, that's all they need.

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25 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

Do you really think the lords of Westeros are going to care

Well, I'm not talking about the misconceptions and self-delusions of Westerosi lords. They will no doubt spread their own propaganda. I just meant to address the facts. You do make a good point - the assorted self-proclaimed kings and queens will certainly try to give the worst possible impression of the Targaryen savior(s).

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I don't think Daenerys will worship any one religion. She advocates for freedom which I guess will include freedom of religion. She's bringing people of different backgrounds to Westeros so I believe she will encourage people to worship whichever gods they choose. She will most likely dabble by learning about all of them but not really settling on any in particular.

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2 hours ago, DanyDayne said:

I don't think Daenerys will worship any one religion. She advocates for freedom which I guess will include freedom of religion. She's bringing people of different backgrounds to Westeros so I believe she will encourage people to worship whichever gods they choose. She will most likely dabble by learning about all of them but not really settling on any in particular.

:agree:

 

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On 9/5/2018 at 3:05 PM, DanyDayne said:

I don't think Daenerys will worship any one religion. She advocates for freedom which I guess will include freedom of religion. She's bringing people of different backgrounds to Westeros so I believe she will encourage people to worship whichever gods they choose. She will most likely dabble by learning about all of them but not really settling on any in particular.

Yes.  I agree.  She will let people worship as they will.  I also agree with the following comment. 

Many of the current faithful will lose their faith when their bellies start going concave from hunger and their prayers are not answered.  When even Walda and Wayman start showing six pack abs, yeah, they will start to question their Old Gods.  They will lose faith in their noble leaders.  That will make them very open to new beliefs if someone comes along who can offer some form of salvation.  Or at least the comfort of a possible salvation.  The new religion doesn't even have to deliver.  It just has to offer hope and comfort.

On 9/5/2018 at 12:22 PM, Moiraine Sedai said:

Many people are going to lose faith in their old gods and lords when hunger comes during the long night.  The people of the north are having to compete with savage Wildlings for food, thanks to a certain Lord commander.  Cersei and Euron will have done damage in the south.  I think the people may welcome a new religion.   A Dothraki army will not be unwelcome because it will be led by a Targaryen.  The people will be so tired of ice and they will welcome the dragons.  They will be so turned off by winter, the weirwoods, and the cold that they will look to Rhllor.

Mellisandre used Stannis to gather followers.  Benerro will try to use Daenerys but I think it will end up the other way around.  Daenerys will use Benerro and the religion of R'hllor to push along her political and social agendas in the East.  

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Dany could certainly have a "come to jesus" moment at some point.  I think the only religions that make sense for her are R'hllor or the Seven.  R'hllor is actually paying out miracles to his followers, so that's some serious oomph in his priest's pocket when it comes to conversion.

The Old Gods are seemingly showing their power as well, although only to a few, although without a more clear dogma I don't think they'll pick up many converts.  

I've been kinda wondering why there hasn't been any miracles of the seven though.  Seems a bit unfair.  Could be George is setting Westeros up for a huge religious civil war.

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21 hours ago, argonak said:

Dany could certainly have a "come to jesus" moment at some point.  I think the only religions that make sense for her are R'hllor or the Seven.  R'hllor is actually paying out miracles to his followers, so that's some serious oomph in his priest's pocket when it comes to conversion.

The Old Gods are seemingly showing their power as well, although only to a few, although without a more clear dogma I don't think they'll pick up many converts.  

I've been kinda wondering why there hasn't been any miracles of the seven though.  Seems a bit unfair.  Could be George is setting Westeros up for a huge religious civil war.

Maybe they work in mysterious ways?

Jokes aside, the Seven are huge advocates against slavery and they seem to do a lot of charity work, like orphanages and houses for the poor and sick. R'hllor doesn't do any of that; there is no real knowledge about what he may say about slavery, but considering that the temples are known to buy children and raise them to be loyal followers, it can be assumed that he may just be ok with it. There is also no mention of any orphanages or houses for the poor and sick opened by his followers in his name, so that's a huge blow against him.

Also, his followers burn people alive in his name! I don't think I would worship a god like that, even if there was some proof that he was real!

If anything, I can almost see a lot of people in Essos, more specifically slaves and freedmen, converting to the Seven if some King on the Iron Throne decided to conquer some Essosi land and convert people.

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6 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Floppy ears?

You can't have missed this in the books, surely?

 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys I

Dany had wanted to ban the tokar when she took Meereen, but her advisors had convinced her otherwise. "The Mother of Dragons must don the tokar or be forever hated," warned the Green Grace, Galazza Galare. "In the wools of Westeros or a gown of Myrish lace, Your Radiance shall forever remain a stranger amongst us, a grotesque outlander, a barbarian conqueror. Meereen's queen must be a lady of Old Ghis." Brown Ben Plumm, the captain of the Second Sons, had put it more succinctly. "Man wants to be the king o' the rabbits, he best wear a pair o' floppy ears."

Adopting a local religion is another way to wear floppy ears, like the Targs adopting the Seven after the Conquest.

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10 hours ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

Maybe they work in mysterious ways?

Jokes aside, the Seven are huge advocates against slavery and they seem to do a lot of charity work, like orphanages and houses for the poor and sick. R'hllor doesn't do any of that; there is no real knowledge about what he may say about slavery, but considering that the temples are known to buy children and raise them to be loyal followers, it can be assumed that he may just be ok with it. There is also no mention of any orphanages or houses for the poor and sick opened by his followers in his name, so that's a huge blow against him.

Also, his followers burn people alive in his name! I don't think I would worship a god like that, even if there was some proof that he was real!

If anything, I can almost see a lot of people in Essos, more specifically slaves and freedmen, converting to the Seven if some King on the Iron Throne decided to conquer some Essosi land and convert people.

Bran's ancestors sacrificed to the Weirwood.  Craster sacrificed to the White walkers.  The CotF fed blood to their trees.  Most of the religions are savages.  The Faith of Seven holds trial by combat.  Look to Naath if you want no blood in your religion.  

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