Ylath's Snout Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 Just now, Hugorfonics said: Soggy cardboard? Its land, a shitload of it. Farming, logging, whatevtagerts.likea little cold The Ironborn don't do that sort of thing as they love to go on and on about. Not to mention you need a solid hold on the land to do that sort of thing. Considering that Balon seemed intent on taking all of the North there is no way he could properly occupy all that land and keep the Iron Islands safe in the long run. 6 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said: He held on to all the key castles in the north, it was the kingsmoot and Eurons war that sent the soldiers away, not the Norths Failing to plan for you death when you are as old as Balon was is a pretty big oversight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Mac Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 Just now, Ylath's Snout said: The Ironborn don't do that sort of thing as they love to go on and on about. They actually do, but like the Starks or any other noble House they use the local populace to do it. Just now, Ylath's Snout said: Not to mention you need a solid hold on the land to do that sort of thing. Considering that Balon seemed intent on taking all of the North there is no way he could properly occupy all that land and keep the Iron Islands safe in the long run. He does not need to, you are taking him far too literally. Robb and Cat understand his meaning. "No," said Catelyn. "Leave them to guard their own, and win back the north with northmen." Just now, Ylath's Snout said: Failing to plan for you death when you are as old as Balon was is a pretty big oversight. not really, he is only in his 40's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ylath's Snout Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 Just now, Bernie Mac said: not really, he is only in his 40's. That's pretty old by medieval standards, although that isn't 100% accurate to Westeros considering the Maesters. 2 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said: He does not need to, you are taking him far too literally. What I mean is that the Ironborn holding say Bear Island is very doable and they would be able to keep control over the pecant to extract taxes and goods. Doing that to all of the North without support from local lords is much harder and will take a lot of effort to properly establish. ---- Personally given Balon's goal if independence siding with the one army offering to help you achieve that seem like a better move than fighting a potential ally, stationing a lot of troops in the North and leaving the Iron Island vulnerable to a counter attack by the Lannister or Redwyne fleet. If all Balon what to do was "Fuck Ned" then attacking the North is right on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Mac Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 1 minute ago, Ylath's Snout said: That's pretty old by medieval standards, it is not an an age when he should be worrying about his death though, Ned & Robert are only a few years younger and both died long before their time. 1 minute ago, Ylath's Snout said: although that isn't 100% accurate to Westeros considering the Maesters. or to the actual medieval world, infant mortality is what skewers the stats. If you survive to become an adult in the medieval world then reaching your 50's would be expected. Balon was early to mid 40's when he died. 1 minute ago, Ylath's Snout said: What I mean is that the Ironborn holding say Bear Island is very doable and they would be able to keep control over the pecant to extract taxes and goods. Doing that to all of the North without support from local lords is much harder and will take a lot of effort to properly establish. I certainly agree, I imagine that it would take both great effort and there would be pockets that they would never control, but they'd control enough for it to make sense. William the Conqueror had little control over the North of England when he became king, having the capital and much of the South was enough. "He ought to be offering fealty," snapped Cersei. "By what right does he call himself king?" "By right of conquest," Lord Tywin said. "King Balon has strangler's fingers round the Neck. Robb Stark's heirs are dead, Winterfell is fallen, and the ironmen hold Moat Cailin, Deepwood Motte, and most of the Stony Shore. the people in their world recognise the difference. 1 minute ago, Ylath's Snout said: ---- Personally given Balon's goal if independence His goal was also more land. 1 minute ago, Ylath's Snout said: siding with the one army offering to help you achieve that seem like a better move than fighting a potential ally, stationing a lot of troops in the North and leaving the Iron Island vulnerable to a counter attack by the Lannister or Redwyne fleet. except it is pointless being independent if most of Westeros is still united and to strong for him to attack. Being 'independent' only works when all the kingdoms are as well, making them easier to attack and conquer, by making the North independent Robb was making it an obvious target 1 minute ago, Ylath's Snout said: If all Balon what to do was "Fuck Ned" then attacking the North is right on. I'm sorry, but Balon is more than clear on why he picks the North Casterly Rock is too strong, and Lord Tywin too cunning by half. Aye, we might take Lannisport, but we should never keep it. No. I hunger for a different plum . . . not so juicy sweet, to be sure, yet it hangs there ripe and undefended." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugorfonics Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 44 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said: The Ironborn don't do that sort of thing as they love to go on and on about. Thats what thralls are for 44 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said: Not to mention you need a solid hold on the land to do that sort of thing. Considering that Balon seemed intent on taking all of the North there is no way he could properly occupy all that land and keep the Iron Islands safe in the long run. But he was. When Balon died he was at the tip of his power 44 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said: Failing to plan for you death when you are as old as Balon was is a pretty big oversight. Come on, thats ridiculous. He was killed by a faceless assassin hired by his brother, no way to see that coming. As for prepping an heir he tried to do that in Asha despite Aerons objections. But if he did fall naturally, and no Euron later, then Victarion would be king who planned on continuing Balons war 27 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said: Doing that to all of the North without support from local lords is much harder and will take a lot of effort to properly establish. All men are knealers. If you hold the castles the smallfolk follow 27 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said: Personally given Balon's goal if independence siding with the one army offering to help you achieve that seem like a better move than fighting a potential ally, stationing a lot of troops in the North and leaving the Iron Island vulnerable to a counter attack by the Lannister or Redwyne fleet. If all Balon what to do was "Fuck Ned" then attacking the North is right on. Robb made it clear it wasnt an alliance, Robb would be giving him his crown, very submissive and not a real king Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ylath's Snout Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 10 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said: I certainly agree, I imagine that it would take both great effort and there would be pockets that they would never control, but they'd control enough for it to make sense. 10 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said: His goal was also more land. The problem is holding the land long term, I am not talking about months or a year but decades at least. Who among the different side of Westeros politics would be fine with the Balon ruling two of the kingdoms? Especially the one with all the lumber needed for the Iron Fleet to bloat to unstoppable proportion. If anything whomever won in the south could win the loyalty of the North by throwing out the Ironborn. That would be much more doable as they need split their ships between supply-and-transport of the occupation force in the North and guarding the Iron Islands. That is why reaving for thralls and plunder make much more sense. They would be much more likely to keep plunder than land. 5 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said: Come on, thats ridiculous. He was killed by a faceless assassin hired by his brother, no way to see that coming. As for prepping an heir he tried to do that in Asha despite Aerons objections. But if he did fall naturally, and no Euron later, then Victarion would be king who planned on continuing Balons war No, Balon was proposing to make a woman (however competent) his heir. That is going to be controversial at the best of times so smoothing the way for Asha in all and any way should have been a priority for a Balon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Mac Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 8 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said: The problem is holding the land long term, I am not talking about months or a year but decades at least. Sure, it is a problem, but not an impossible one. They have held lands before, notably the Riverlands and large parts of the Western coast of Westeros. They've even regularly ruled parts of the North. Large tracts of the Stony Shore, Bear Island, Sea Dragon Point, and Cape Kraken have all been held by ironmen at times. Indeed, Cape Kraken, closest to the Iron Islands, has changed hands so many times that many maesters believe its populace to be closer in blood to the ironmen than to Northmen. The North is likely the weakest it has ever been, this would be the best time for any invader to lay a claim. Quote Who among the different side of Westeros politics would be fine with the Balon ruling two of the kingdoms? Especially the one with all the lumber needed for the Iron Fleet to bloat to unstoppable proportion. More than you'd think. "That we recognize his kingship and grant him everything north of the Neck." Lord Redwyne laughed. "What is there north of the Neck that any sane man would want? If Greyjoy will trade swords and sails for stone and snow, I say do it, and count ourselves lucky." "Truly," agreed Mace Tyrell. "That's what I would do. Let King Balon finish the northmen whilst we finish Stannis." The only reason Tywin was not going to take Balon up on his offer was due to him already making a deal with Roose. Quote That is why reaving for thralls and plunder make much more sense. They would be much more likely to keep plunder than land. it makes poor long term sense, more land is the more sensible option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ylath's Snout Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 4 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said: Sure, it is a problem, but not an impossible one. They have held lands before, notably the Riverlands and large parts of the Western coast of Westeros. Yeah but that was before the unification of Westeros. Letting someone that isn't the King in the Iron Throne control more than half of Westeros as a Lord Paramount never mind a self-declared king sets a horrible president. Sure some people though it might be a good idea but considering it is Mace... 5 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said: it makes poor long term sense, more land is the more sensible option. Oh sure, if you can keep the land, that is what I arguing Balon wouldn't be able to do. Not without cutting a deal and passing on declaring himself king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Mac Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 13 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said: Yeah but that was before the unification of Westeros. Westeros was unified with Dragons (and even then Dorne was allowed to remain independent for 2 centuries). It is a lot harder now, compromises would have to be reached. 13 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said: Letting someone that isn't the King in the Iron Throne control more than half of Westeros as a Lord Paramount never mind a self-declared king sets a horrible president. Renly was willing to let Robb do the same. Balon was asking for terms, he was seeking peace. 13 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said: Sure some people though it might be a good idea but considering it is Mace... Mace and Redwyne. Two of the small council are in favor, no one really objects other than Cersei. You asked who would be fine with it and I told you, it is clearly not the hurdle you imagine it to be. Tywin was more than willing to let Balon rule for another decade Lord Tywin steepled his fingers beneath his chin. "Balon Greyjoy thinks in terms of plunder, not rule. Let him enjoy an autumn crown and suffer a northern winter. He will give his subjects no cause to love him. Come spring, the northmen will have had a bellyful of krakens. When you bring Eddard Stark's grandson home to claim his birthright, lords and little folk alike will rise as one to place him on the high seat of his ancestors. It would be up to Balon to do his best to secure the North in that time. 13 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said: Oh sure, if you can keep the land, that is what I arguing Balon wouldn't be able to do. Not without cutting a deal and passing on declaring himself king. well yeah, many deals would be cut, either with the Crown or the local nobility. That is pretty much the norm for most successful invaders, compromise would be met. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ylath's Snout Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 2 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said: Tywin was more than willing to let Balon rule for another decade Proving that the gains wouldn't be permanent for Balon. 4 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said: Westeros was unified with Dragons (and even then Dorne was allowed to remain independent for 2 centuries). It is a lot harder now, compromises would have to be reached. Dorne is much more defensible than the Iron Island. During a war of reconquest Cutting the Iron Islands of from the mainland would likely spark a rebellion pretty soon. I am not arguing that Balon couldn't take the land but I don't think he could keep it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Peres Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 Never understood the defense over Balon decision. Acording to Asha Balon was a very bad lord “Nuncle says he’ll give you more of what my father gave you. Well, what was that? Gold and glory, some will say. Freedom, ever sweet. Aye, it’s so, he gave us that... and widows too, as Lord Blacktyde will tell you. How many of you had your homes put to the torch when Robert came? How many had daughters raped and despoiled? Burnt towns and broken castles, my father gave you that. Defeat was what he gave you. Nuncle here will give you more. Not me.” "Asha had loved her father, but she did not delude herself. Balon had been blind in some respects. A brave man but a bad lord." Tywin points out that Balon is a walking contradiction. Lord Tywin said politely, “as are we. Greyjoy demands half the kingdom as the price of alliance, but what will he do to earn it? Fight the Starks? He is doing that already. Why should we pay for what he has given us for free?" Greyjoys will have another enemy to contend with. They no longer wish to be subject to the Iron Throne, it would seem, so by what right do they look to the Iron Throne for aid? Harlaw even points out that Balon failed to see what was obvious to him A long cold swim, for a crown you cannot keep. Your father had more courage than sense. The Old Way served the isles well when we were one small kingdom amongst many, but Aegon’s Conquest put an end to that. Balon refused to see what was plain before him. The Old Way died with Black Harren and his sons.” even Theon was able to see what would happen “Call yourself King of the Iron islands, no one will care . . . until the wars are over, and the victor looks about and spies the old fool perched off his shore with an iron crown on his head.” About the Ironborn controlling the north... “Crow’s Eye,” Asha called, “did you leave your wits at Asshai? If we cannot hold the north— and we cannot—how can we win the whole of the Seven Kingdoms?” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Mac Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 7 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said: Proving that the gains wouldn't be permanent for Balon. it hardly proves that. 10-15 years of rule is a long time to secure a rule and Tywin has no idea his own position would be in that timeframe. Quote Dorne is much more defensible than the Iron Island. During a war of reconquest Cutting the Iron Islands of from the mainland would likely spark a rebellion pretty soon. But they were not cutting them off, Balon was opening negotiations, that suggests a willingness to compromise. Quote I am not arguing that Balon couldn't take the land but I don't think he could keep it. of course he could. Him keeping it is hardly impossible, whether he would have is another matter dependent on many, many variables. 1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said: About the Ironborn controlling the north... She is pretty clear on that matter If my father still lived, Moat Cailin would never have fallen. Balon Greyjoy had known that the Moat was the key to holding the north. Euron knew that as well; he simply did not care. No more than he cared what happened to Deepwood Motte or Torrhen's Square. Once the Ironborn gave up Moat Cailin it was all over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Peres Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 29 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said: If my father still lived, Moat Cailin would never have fallen. Balon Greyjoy had known that the Moat was the key to holding the north. Euron knew that as well; he simply did not care. No more than he cared what happened to Deepwood Motte or Torrhen's Square. By the time of the quote I gave MC hasn't fallen yet, she even tried to use it to negotiate with the northem. “To end this war before this war ends us. We have won all that we are like to win... and stand to lose all just as quick, unless we make a peace. I have shown Lady Glover every courtesy, and she swears her lord will treat with me. If we hand back Deepwood Motte, Torrhen’s Square, and Moat Cailin, she says, the northmen will cede us Sea Dragon Point and all the Stony Shore. Those lands are thinly peopled, yet ten times larger than all the isles put together. An exchange of hostages will seal the pact, and each side will agree to make common cause with the other should the Iron Throne—” Holding the north was never viable. just the fact that even after taking winterfell it was still impossible to defend the position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Mac Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 Just now, Arthur Peres said: By the time of the quote I gave MC hasn't fallen yet, she even tried to use it to negotiate with the northem. by the time of the quote the vast majority of the Ironborn had left Moat Cailin. It was likely too late to rectify the damage done. Asha's more than clear, had her father lived they'd still have the North. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zionius Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 Quote Robb was looking at her anxiously. “Past time,” she said. “Winterfell may have need of all its swords soon, and they had best not be made of wood.” Theon Greyjoy put a hand on the hilt of his blade and said, “My lady, if it comes to that, my House owes yours a great debt.” -AGOT Cat III The "debt" and the fosterage might be related. My headcanon is Ned convinced Robert to pardon House Greyjoy. Quote Robert should have scoured the isles after Balon Greyjoy rose against him, Cersei thought. He smashed their fleet, burned their towns, and broke their castles, but when he had them on their knees he let them up again. He should have made another island of their skulls. -AFFC Cersei VII. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ylath's Snout Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said: But they were not cutting them off, Balon was opening negotiations, that suggests a willingness to compromise. Sorry I mean in any future war between the south and Iron Island+ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sleeper Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 The occupation of the North was a joke. The Eastern side of the North barely noticed, the occupation of Moat Cailin was a slow death and the Ironborn don't know anything about siege warfare and can't deal with cavalry. If not for Theon and the infighting in the North it would have been barely more than a nuisance. Of Euron hadn't pulled them out the Ironborn would have the majority of their forces including the entirety of the Iron Fleet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Raventree Hall Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 On 8/22/2018 at 10:40 PM, Hugorfonics said: I thought it was a great idea. The Targaryens are done, the old way is back. If Doran or Viserys or GC had made their move things would be much different now He did hold the north, at the time of his death the north looked very ironborn. He tried cutting deals with Tywin, Lannister stalled him. Balon won his war, he conquered the north Sure, you can even by dumb and make intelligent decisions By adwd Balon was dead and his captains all sailed home for the kingsmoot. Victarion was in possession of Moat Cailin, the north was secured during Balons reign. His mistake was thinking that banished Euron wont hire a faseless man to kinslay, thats not idiotic its unlucky He won battles, not the war. None of the Castles he held were held long enough to establish any sort of actual regime turnover. Both Asha and Theon we have viewpoints from, and so we know neither of them expected they could continue to hold their castles very long time. Both Stannis and Roose still would have attacked those castles (whether Balon was still a King or not), and I would lay down large amounts of money that those castles still would have fallen. You see, the author has clearly set up the storyline that Balon is not a great strategist. I am sorry to break your fanboy heart, but he didn't have a chance in hell at holding the North. Again, I think you are confusing the word battle and the word war. Neither Robb nor Roose (who I guess succeeded Robb as ruler of the North) ever laid down their sword nor admitted defeat. It's not the War of the Blackwater, it's the Battle of the Blackwater, because Stannis is still a threat. He didn't win a war. He won some loosely defended castles, that were going to be retaken shortly. Do you also think Robb won the war since he took a lot of castles in the Westerlands? Or did Tywin win the war against Robb when he took Riverland castles? No they didn't obviously. Everyone knew Robb was coming. Although he didn't make it, Roose did, and they reversed every single Ironborn victory one by one. That is called DEFEAT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugorfonics Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 2 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said: He won battles, not the war. None of the Castles he held were held long enough to establish any sort of actual regime turnover. Both Asha and Theon we have viewpoints from, and so we know neither of them expected they could continue to hold their castles very long time. Both Stannis and Roose still would have attacked those castles (whether Balon was still a King or not), and I would lay down large amounts of money that those castles still would have fallen. You see, the author has clearly set up the storyline that Balon is not a great strategist. I am sorry to break your fanboy heart, but he didn't have a chance in hell at holding the North. Again, I think you are confusing the word battle and the word war. Neither Robb nor Roose (who I guess succeeded Robb as ruler of the North) ever laid down their sword nor admitted defeat. It's not the War of the Blackwater, it's the Battle of the Blackwater, because Stannis is still a threat. He didn't win a war. He won some loosely defended castles, that were going to be retaken shortly. Do you also think Robb won the war since he took a lot of castles in the Westerlands? Or did Tywin win the war against Robb when he took Riverland castles? No they didn't obviously. Everyone knew Robb was coming. Although he didn't make it, Roose did, and they reversed every single Ironborn victory one by one. That is called DEFEAT. Balons war ended when Euron killed him. The kingsmoot and Eurons war sent the ironborn from the North back to the islands, Roose and Stannis would not be able to take the castles if Balon lived. Moat Cailin is the key to the North and it only fell under Theons command, if his father never died Roose couldn't head north Did the author set up Balon as a bad strategist? I didnt get that at all, not that hes amazing, but bad? And whats with these fanboy comments? Who would admit to being a fanboy of Balon? Its asoiaf, im rooting for everyone, at least the living Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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