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Why did Tywin and Aerys stick together for twenty years?

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23 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The fact that he didn't remarry after Joanna's death indicates that as well. Also, the fact that he could not admit that Jaime was not his heir after he had joined the KG. He couldn't even admit his hair was turning gray...

And if Tyrion is Aerys' son then Tywin raising the bastard as his own son also shows he was, in a sense, much softer than we give him credit for.

You are one of favorite posters on this forum. So I want to see where you fall on the whole “Tyrion is Aerys’ son” theory. Personally I don’t like it only because the dynamic of Tywin/Tyrion fascinates me to no end. And for me, it works better with Tyrion being Tywin’s biological son. 

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1 hour ago, Foot_Of_The_King said:

You are one of favorite posters on this forum. So I want to see where you fall on the whole “Tyrion is Aerys’ son” theory. Personally I don’t like it only because the dynamic of Tywin/Tyrion fascinates me to no end. And for me, it works better with Tyrion being Tywin’s biological son. 

I didn't like that thing at first, either. There was some theorizing about this even before ADwD.

But the question to ask is not about the effects this thing would have on the Tyrion-Tywin relationship (Tywin is dead, after all) but rather how it would effect the later character development of Tyrion and his further interactions with his living Targaryen relatives.

I'd also say, though, that Tywin would be a much more nuanced and interesting character if he had known about Tyrion's true parentage and had him still raised as his own son.

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On 1/9/2019 at 1:02 AM, Lord Varys said:

That is not how power works

Yes, it is. An owner of a hotel cracking a few jokes to his inner circle at the expense of the General Manager does not mean the GM loses all authority with the guests or the workers of the hotel. 

Tywin is still managing the realm, nothing in the books suggests his duties were not the same

Amidst all this, Lord Tywin Lannister continued to serve as Hand of the King. "Lord Tywin looms as large as Casterly Rock," wrote Grand Maester Pycelle, "and no king has ever had so diligent or capable a Hand." Seemingly secure in his office after the death of Steffon Baratheon, Lord Tywin even went so far as to bring his beautiful young daughter, Cersei, to court.
In 281 AC, however, the aged Kingsguard knight Ser Harlan Grandison passed away in his sleep, and the uneasy accord between Aerys II and his Hand finally snapped, when His Grace chose to offer a white cloak to Lord Tywin's eldest son.
 
Tywin is more secure in the later years, not less. There is zero sources indicating that the Handship was not still the most prestigious job (rather than inheritance) in the realm.
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. Aerys II as king making Tywin the butt of his jokes in the front of the entire court,

Where is that claimed? He's not Robert, he's medieval Howard Hughes. They can't have been together that often.

In the years that followed, the king's madness deepened. Though Tywin Lannister continued as Hand, Aerys no longer met with him save in the presence of all seven Kingsguard. 

And it's Tywin who's dealing with the Royal court, not Aerys.

It was not long before reports of the king's remarks reached Lord Tywin as he grieved at Casterly Rock. Thereafter, no shred of the old affection between the two men endured. Never a man to make a show of his emotion, Lord Tywin continued on as Hand of the King, dealing with the daily tedium of the Seven Kingdoms, while the king grew ever more erratic, violent, and suspicious. 

 

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including men who were supposed to follow the Hand's orders

Well that's not technically true, they are all on the council and they can disagree with the Hand/the King, and they can either be listened to or not. 

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, then Tywin's authority will inevitably decline. A man you laugh at, isn't a man you respect.

There is zero indication that he was not respected or that the Hand position was no longer the most prestigious in the Kingdom. 

The lickspittle lords who surrounded Aerys II had gained much and more from the king's madness and eagerly seized upon any opportunity to speak ill of Prince Rhaegar and inflame the father's suspicions of the son.

Rhaegar doesn't seem to have lost respect, not sure how you can claim Tywin did. Furthermore Aerys own reaction does not suggest the realm had lost respect

The king replaced him as Hand with Lord Owen Merryweather, an aged and amiable lickspittle famed for laughing loudest at every jape and witticism uttered by the king, no matter how feeble.

Henceforth, His Grace told Pycelle, the realm would know for a certainty that the man who wore the crown also ruled the Seven Kingdoms.

Aerys japes began in 272, (they didn't start in his last year like you suggested) yet the realm still regarded Tywin as the 'true ruler of Westeros', clearly there was respect.

The Handship was still hugely prestigious and influential, that is my point. You can argue it's position would be better with a stable, more supportive monarch, but the idea that it was no longer important is not supported by the text.

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Tywin was still a powerful lord in his own right, with his own bannermen and vassals and household knights, but he couldn't have been a very powerful Hand after he had lost the trust of the king.

He lost the trust of the King in 272, that is the middle of his reign. 

Do you think the Six Hands who came after him were more powerful Hands?

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The Hand can only do what the king allows him to do.

That is true of every Hand, we see that clearly with Ned and even hear of how Jon was ignored regarding Slynt.

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If Aerys was too lazy to interfere with much of the day-to-day affairs of governance, Tywin would have retained some semblance of power, but if the king regularly ridiculed him and any of the suggestions he made during council and court sessions, very few people would have respected him.

There is no evidence that he did though. Given he refused to be in the same room as him without all 7 Kingsguard they are unlikely to have spent too much time together.

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You cannot respect a man who takes shit like that without fighting back. And Tywin Lannister apparently never talked back or paid his king back in kind.

Really? I'd disagree, in their society speaking back to the King would be seen as disrespectful. We value equality, they don't.

There is zero evidence that Tywin was seen as less than for not taking the bait.

 

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He just stood there and watched while Aerys took the tongue of Ser Ilyn Payne, who was then commander of the Hand's own guard.

Yup. Ned, Jon Arryn, Hoster Tully, Doran and Mace would have done the same in Tywin's position. Ilyn had fucked up.

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We are getting examples of offices Tywin wanted to give to his men - the office of master-of-arms, for example, should go to Tywin's brother Tygett - and how he failed at that. We also have no indication that Tywin had any men in the Kingsguard, unlike Unwin Peake, who had multiple men in Aegon III's Kingsguard. Aerys II felt safe in the company of his Kingsguard, meaning he saw them all as his men, not Tywin's.

You do realize there are many, many positions in a medieval organization, right? 

 

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Aerys' paranoia seems to have been the delusions of a madman. Tywin never tried to murder Aerys. That was all in Aerys' head.

And yet it reflects on how powerful Tywin was. There is zero evidence contradicting this, zero evidence supporting your claim. 

Dude you are an intelligent guy but time and time again you come up with headcanon which is not supported by the text.

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Pycelle was not a Tywin appointee, though.

No one claimed he was, but years of working with him made him loyal to him. it is unlikely that in the hundreds of positions within the Government that other men did not feel the same way towards a man 20 years in his job. 

 

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Have you any evidence that Aerys II was betrayed by anyone but Tywin (and in a sense Pycelle) during the Sack?

Dude, that is rich. I guess you are the only person allowed to come up with theories with no textual evidence. The arrogance that you seem to hold yourself to a higher standard over everyone else on this board is too much at times.

It's a theory, Tywins control over a 500k city in hours is pretty unrealistic, it's slightly more plausible if some officials were giving their support.  It's not a hill I'm going to die on, but it makes sense.

 

 

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@Bernie Mac

I don't agree with your theory. If you want to convince me, give me some real evidence. It might be that Tywin had an army of lackeys in the government too insignificant to warrant mention by George - but until such time as this is confirmed I don't buy that. Even more so because we do have evidence that Aerys II did not grant Tywin's favorites offices in the later half of his reign. I never doubted that there might have been some (minor) offices filled by people suggested by Tywin to Aerys II back in the 260s. But at this point we have no reason to believe such men were still in office in the 280s - they could have died, they could have retired, they could have been dismissed.

I did not put forth a theory of my own, I merely pointed out the holes in your theory. Which all revolve around the notion that a man losing the trust and favor of the king can continue to be a powerful Hand. That doesn't really work if you think about how it would have worked in practice. There is something to your argument in the times of Aerys the Recluse (i.e. after Duskendale) but even then the king only never left the Red Keep. He did not confine himself to his apartments nor did he allow his Hand - like Aerys I, who really confined himself to his study, did with Lord Bloodraven - to effectively run the government for him. Aerys II sat the Iron Throne (Tywin only stepped in for him when 'King Scab' had cut himself too often or was indisposed for other reasons), and Aerys II also attended his own council session.

He was a more active king even in his last years than Robert Baratheon ever was - however, even Robert made it clear that the Hand could not rule him in matters he considered important - Tourney of the Hand, assassination of Daenerys Targaryen, etc.

Still, whenever Tywin spoke with the King's Voice and the king was absent he could and would have had considerable impact. However, we are told that Aerys II arbitrarily changed or revoked rulings of Tywin, for instance back in the early years in that port fees issue. That doesn't make it very likely that Tywin had a great impact on policy. We see that later when Tywin urges the king to not go to Duskendale - and Aerys II does go to Duskendale. How much power did Tywin have back then?

In addition, Yandel/Gyldayn describe Tywin's reputation as Hand as very similar to that of Otto Hightower - who was quickly resented at court for his imperious manner and his access to the Iron Throne. Tywin was never loved which means he couldn't have been very popular. In the end, all rewards and favors come from the king, so if you want advancement you suck up to the king, and all the men wanting advancement sucked up to Aerys II by mocking Tywin - which Yandel tells us, too. A truly powerful Hand has the ear of the king - then you suck up to the Hand before you get to the king because the Hand can give you advancement by speaking to the king on your behalf.

You don't seem to have understood what I meant up there. I never said the office of the Handship lost power and prestige - I said Tywin would have been seen as a weak Hand because he was lacking the king's ear and favor. And that is simply part of the nature of the office of the Hand. The Hand is not the Prime Minister of GB in the later centuries. He does not have a power base independent from the king. Tywin would have still been a pretty good and dutiful Hand even in his last years, but not exactly a very powerful one.

Also, it is an outrageous fallacy to take the irrational fear of a madman as 'evidence' that the Tywin really had the power to actually threaten or kill Aerys. That is like saying me believing you plan to murder me, claiming you killed my childhood friend in some naval accident counts, etc. would count as evidence that you actually have the power to do that - if I'm a paranoid schizophrenic like Aerys II then this would be 'evidence' of nothing. The idea that you plan to murder me and actually have the ability and resources to do so would have to be established independently.

This also goes for Tywin apparent 'great power' after Steffon's death. What allowed Tywin's star to rise was only Aerys II's unwillingness/inability to move against his childhood friend - due to him being irrationally afraid for his life. If the king allows you to do what you want then this is usually interpreted as a sign of royal favor/approval, and thus the court would have seen Tywin as more powerful then. Especially since Aerys II wouldn't have made (m)any Tywin jokes during the time he thought Tywin planned to kill him. In those months/years he would have behaved rather differently whenever they actually met/interacted. During that time we can likely say Tywin was really powerful and running the show. But that was only from Steffon's death until Tywin's resignation - or rather some time before that since a man still fearing Tywin could and were planning to kill him would likely have not considered it a great idea to make that man's son a Kingsguard.

And in general on Tywin:

Most of the information we have on Tywin the great Hand comes from Lannister sources - for instance, that famous scene where Tywin stared old Merryweather into submission. We don't know whether that actually happened or whether this was the whole story to it. We don't know how loud the other men at the council table laughed, etc.

Tywin the man is very much different from Tywin the legend. I remember a time when there were actually people who believed the nonsense that Tywin never smiled (changed with with AFfC), and we all remember when Pycelle's reports cited by Yandel killed the equally ridiculous idea that Tywin never laughed. Such people simply do not exist. There is much and more we don't know about Tywin Lannister at this point. He was a very private person and much obsessed with the face and image he showed to the public, including his own children.

The image of Tywin Yandel paints in TWoIaF by heavily drawing on Pycelle as a source, while more nuanced and accurate than the picture Tywin's own children paint of the man in ASoIaF, is likely not the complete picture either.

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3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

@Bernie Mac

I don't agree with your theory.

That's fine, as I said its not a Hill I'm prepared to die on. 

If you want to choose that Tywin had zero influence with not a single official within Kings Landing, with the exception of Pycelle, than you are free to do so. 

 

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I did not put forth a theory of my own,

Yeah. You did.

"I'm not sure that Tywin had that much power and prestige in being the Hand in the last year. "

That is a theory, a theory not backed up by any evidence. It speaks of your arrogance that you don't even see your theories as anything other than fact. 

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I merely pointed out the holes in your theory. Which all revolve around the notion that a man losing the trust and favor of the king can continue to be a powerful Hand.

First of all learn to read, quote where I made that argument? 

My argument was that the position of Hand was still prestigious and influential, Nothing in the books contradicts this, the fact that instead of debating what I actually said you made up your own argument speaks volumes. Once again you ignored what was written and decided to believe your own headcanon, I should feel blessed I have something in common with GRRM.

Though while we are on the subject, where is your evidence that between the years of 272 and 281 the Handship was noticeably less powerful than normal? 

 

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4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

That's fine, as I said its not a Hill I'm prepared to die on. 

If you want to choose that Tywin had zero influence with not a single official within Kings Landing, with the exception of Pycelle, than you are free to do so. 

That is not what I said.

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Yeah. You did.

"I'm not sure that Tywin had that much power and prestige in being the Hand in the last year. "

That is a theory, a theory not backed up by any evidence. It speaks of your arrogance that you don't even see your theories as anything other than fact. 

I was expressing my opinion there, not formulating a theory. If I formulate a theory I usually have more evidence for it then just my opinion. I point out what's wrong with you arguments.

In fact, your general idea - that Tywin was in a pretty strong position in KL after Steffon's death - is pretty solid. However, the arguments you use to support that idea are not all that sound.

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

My argument was that the position of Hand was still prestigious and influential, Nothing in the books contradicts this, the fact that instead of debating what I actually said you made up your own argument speaks volumes. Once again you ignored what was written and decided to believe your own headcanon, I should feel blessed I have something in common with GRRM.

Your 'arguments' include all kind of crazy stuff like a paranoid madman's delusions being 'evidence' and that offices you think have to exist were filled by Tywin's men without you being able to give us evidence that they exist and that they were filled by Tywin's men. You also apparently imagine that Tywin had a strong following at court without there being evidence for that and you basically imagine that this imagined following actively betrayed the king during the Sack.

There is no evidence for any of that.

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Though while we are on the subject, where is your evidence that between the years of 272 and 281 the Handship was noticeably less powerful than normal? 

How often do I have to lay this out? I never said the Handship as such was weaker then. I said that a Hand not having the trust of the king is by default a weak Hand unless the king actually lets the Hand run the government - which King Aerys II did not, in fact, allow Tywin Lannister to do.

The Handship is an important office, but while the king is actually not indisposed all the Hand can do is to enact and execute the will of the king as he commands him to do. He can offer advice and make suggestions and all, but if the king - as Aerys II did on many occasions - ignores said suggestions and advice then the effect the Hand has on the government and policy of the king is pretty low almost to the point of zero.

The way you imagine/describe the Handship seems to be as a rival power center to the king - and that is simply not true. Or only true if the king as such does not have a power center of his own - which is basically only the case during a regency setting when the king is either not yet of age or otherwise incapacitated.

Which is also the reason why the comparison to Unwin Peake is pretty off. Unwin Peake was not just the Hand - he was also one of the regents and the Protector of the Realm. Unwin Peake was basically the king until he resigned from his post. The trend started by Tyland Lannister before him was that the Hand and the Protector ruled the Realm, not the council of regents which convened less and less often. Once Peake seized both those offices and had less and less colleagues on the regency council to deal with when that body convened at all he wielded as much power as no mere Hand before or since.

Tywin Lannister never had that amount of power - nor do we know the Hand actually has the power to appoint officials and the like without the king's consent when there is an adult king around.

In that sense - either Tywin Lannister and King Aerys II got along better (at least in certain spheres of policy) during the last years of Tywin's Handship or Tywin cannot have been that powerful a Hand.

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Could Tywin simply have used his gold to buy enough people? After all Littlefinger bribed officers of goldcloaks and so became "kingmaker". Actually it seems that Renly had lost control of gc to Baelish when Renly still was master of laws and so nominal leader of city watch. So richest man in Westeros could have bought people in certain places to look away or just open certain doors to his men.

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Disclaimer: This is in no way intended to start any real world political discussion.  I just remembered this quote and found it interesting.

Lyndon Johnson (Aerys) about J. Edgar Hoover (Tywin):

"It's probably better to have him inside the tent pissing out, than outside the tent pissing in."

I can see Aerys wanting to keep Tywin in his "tent", but I can also see Tywin wanting to make sure that he stays in that tent.

 

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On 1/11/2019 at 1:10 PM, Lord Varys said:

That is not what I said.

Yes it was.

On 1/11/2019 at 1:10 PM, Lord Varys said:

 

If I formulate a theory I usually have more evidence for it then just my opinion. I point out what's wrong with you arguments.

My only argument was that the Handship remained a prestigious and influential position. That's it! Nothing you have said has contradicted this. 

 

On 1/11/2019 at 1:10 PM, Lord Varys said:

 

In fact, your general idea - that Tywin was in a pretty strong position in KL after Steffon's death - is pretty solid. However, the arguments you use to support that idea are not all that sound.

I never made that argument, are you incapable of reading anyone else's posts? 

In one of your replies when you waffled on and on, paragraph after paragraph ignoring what I actually said, you made that claim. 

My only argument was that the Handship remained a prestigious and influential position.

I've not claimed that it was any less or more powerful than before, all I've claimed is that it remained a prestigious and influential position. 

Your replies would not piss me off so much, even with your condescending manner, if you bothered to respond to what I actually said rather than ignore my general point. 

On 1/11/2019 at 1:10 PM, Lord Varys said:

Your 'arguments' include all kind of crazy stuff like a paranoid madman's delusions being 'evidence'

eh? 

 

On 1/11/2019 at 1:10 PM, Lord Varys said:

 

You also apparently imagine that Tywin had a strong following at court

Quote where I said this? A 'strong following'. 

This is what I actually said "Other, lesser positions, could well be held by Tywin appointees."

 

On 1/11/2019 at 1:10 PM, Lord Varys said:

 

without there being evidence for that and you basically imagine that this imagined following actively betrayed the king during the Sack.

Not once did I claim that. Please quote where I said this? 

On 1/11/2019 at 1:10 PM, Lord Varys said:

There is no evidence for any of that.

No evidence for all the claims I never actually made? No shit!

On 1/11/2019 at 1:10 PM, Lord Varys said:

How often do I have to lay this out? I never said the Handship as such was weaker then. I said that a Hand not having the trust of the king is by default a weak Hand unless the king actually lets the Hand run the government - which King Aerys II did not, in fact, allow Tywin Lannister to do.

Do you have any evidence for this theory of yours? 

Can you prove that the other Hands under Aerys were stronger? 

On 1/11/2019 at 1:10 PM, Lord Varys said:

 

The Handship is an important office, but while the king is actually not indisposed all the Hand can do is to enact and execute the will of the king as he commands him to do. He can offer advice and make suggestions and all, but if the king - as Aerys II did on many occasions - ignores said suggestions and advice then the effect the Hand has on the government and policy of the king is pretty low almost to the point of zero.

Not once have I suggested otherwise.

Why do you keep on suggesting arguments I've not actually made? This is some gaslighting of epic proportions, do you think constantly making up false arguments will trick me into thinking I made the above argument. 

 

On 1/11/2019 at 1:10 PM, Lord Varys said:

The way you imagine/describe the Handship seems to be as a rival power center to the king

Yes, please tell me what I imagine. Better yet quote me. 

 

On 1/11/2019 at 1:10 PM, Lord Varys said:

 

- and that is simply not true.

What is simply not true? 

 

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These guys were inseparable during their youth (along with Steffon Baratheon).  It really is too bad that Aerys' madness and paranoia ruined their relationship and ultimately House Targaryen.  It was true that Tywin was using his position to try and elevate his house even further (which is to be expected), but his service and abilities warranted such boons.  Aerys should have married Rhaegar to Cersei, or at least to Viserys and tied House Lannister to House Targaryen for all time.

My own view as to why Aerys kept Tywin on as hand is quite simple...he was too effective.  Aerys feared Tywin more as a true enemy and needed some way to keep him in check, which is why he finally accepted Tywin's resignation once Jaime was named to the Kingsguard (thanks to Cersei).  Jaime speculated that Tywin (ever ambitious) was hoping for a marriage between Cersei and Viserys).

As to the Tyrion being Aerys' son argument, it just does not hold.  I've argued against it countlessly, and still find any evidence for it lacking, despite GRRM throwing out some red meat to the base in the World Book.   

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On 1/8/2019 at 9:08 PM, Bernie Mac said:

And we do hear of a Tywin loyalist still on the Small Council, Pycelle. Other, lesser positions, could well be held by Tywin appointees. 

   

 

On 1/8/2019 at 11:02 PM, Lord Varys said:

We also have no indication that Tywin had any men in the Kingsguard, unlike Unwin Peake, who had multiple men in Aegon III's Kingsguard.

   

Pycelle was a Maester and therefore bound to destroy the Targaryens, like the Maesters before him aided to poison and kill the Dragons as the Archmaester tells Sam. That is why he lied to Aerys that is was secure to open the gates to Tywin and in favor to send an assassin to kill Danny. They (Maesters)hate Magic, Dragons and all Targarens. 

 

  Tywin had Jaime in the Kingsguard And he killed Aerys. 

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6 hours ago, HallowedMarcus said:

 Pycelle was a Maester and therefore bound to destroy the Targaryens, like the Maesters before him aided to poison and kill the Dragons as the Archmaester tells Sam. That is why he lied to Aerys that is was secure to open the gates to Tywin

It's also possible that Pycelle was in the dark about Tywin's intentions, that his trust of Tywin assumed he was there to help.

Considering Tywin's own men did not know if Tywin was going to crown Aegon/Viserys when he was taking the city I doubt Pycelle was aware of it. 

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6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

It's also possible that Pycelle was in the dark about Tywin's intentions, that his trust of Tywin assumed he was there to help.

Considering Tywin's own men did not know if Tywin was going to crown Aegon/Viserys when he was taking the city I doubt Pycelle was aware of it. 

Once Rhaegar died on the Trident, Tywin's mind was made up.  He had to prove that he had abandoned House Targaryen forever, so I'm sure Kevan and a few other trusted captains and lieutenants has some inkling as to what was about to occur.

I think it is safe to assume that Pycelle has and had been Tywin's man all along, even hoping that Tywin would take the crown instead of Robert.  I think it likely that he remained in contact with Casterly Rock well after Tywin resigned the office of Hand of the King (especially to keep abreast of Jaime).  I think it is safe to assume that he knew what was coming when Tywin showed up at KL 12,000 strong.

Edited by Stallion That Mounts Texas

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1 hour ago, Stallion That Mounts Texas said:

Once Rhaegar died on the Trident, Tywin's mind was made up.  He had to prove that he had abandoned House Targaryen forever, so I'm sure Kevan and a few other trusted captains and lieutenants has some inkling as to what was about to occur.

Complete agreement, but I doubt Pycelle was told. There is simply no upside for Tywin to reveal that to Pycelle via raven when Pycelle can change his mind, or the message be discovered. 

Look at Tywin's reaction to Pycelle in AGOT

"Let her say what she likes. Her son needs to be taken in hand before he ruins us all. I blame those jackanapes on the council—our friend Petyr, the venerable Grand Maester, and that cockless wonder Lord Varys. What sort of counsel are they giving Joffrey when he lurches from one folly to the next?...... He pointed a finger at Tyrion's face. "If Cersei cannot curb the boy, you must. And if these councillors are playing us false …"
Tyrion knew. "Spikes," he sighed. "Heads. Walls."
 
Pycelle is a tool, he's not going to be told of Tywin's plans.
 
1 hour ago, Stallion That Mounts Texas said:

I think it is safe to assume that Pycelle has and had been Tywin's man all along, even hoping that Tywin would take the crown instead of Robert.  I think it likely that he remained in contact with Casterly Rock well after Tywin resigned the office of Hand of the King (especially to keep abreast of Jaime).  I think it is safe to assume that he knew what was coming when Tywin showed up at KL 12,000 strong.

He may have guessed, he may not. That was my point, the assumption that he advised Aerys knowing what would happen to Aerys and his grandchildren is just that, an assumption. Jaime himself didn't assume the Targ grandchildren would be killed.

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