Death's "Other" Kingdom: Idle Thoughts on Revenants

[hiemal]

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"...Those who have crossed
With direct eyes, to death's other kingdom 
Remember us - if at all..."... The Hollow Men... T.S. Eliot

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Nephew, do you still know the words?"

"What is dead may never die," Theon said, remembering.

"What is dead may never die," his uncle echoed, "but rises again, harder and stronger. Stand."... ACoK

I was pondering the nature and identity of revenants in ASoIaF as well what seem to be different types. Wights, firewights, possibly even Drowned Men. Most importantly for this thread: Those brought back by the power of fire seem to go through some kind of purification of essence; becoming less human and more elemental. Beric loses most of his previous life:

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I held a castle on the Marches once, and there was a woman I was pledged to marry, but I could not find that castle today, nor tell you the color of that woman's hair. Who knighted me, old friend? What were my favorite foods? It all fades. Sometimes I think I was born on the bloody grass in that grove of ash, with the taste of fire in my mouth and a hole in my chest. Are you my mother, Thoros?" ... ASoS

 

What is left is just... duty.

Lady Stoneheart is an even more... stark. Whatever mercy or pity she once had never emerged from the Trident and family, duty, and honor all seem to have become subservient to vengeance.

Is there another way to receive this "fire", I wonder? Melisandre does not seem to me to be quite a revenant but she doesn't seem to be fully not one, either. If that makes a lick of sense. I suspect that some of her vital energy has gradually been replaced with elemental energy so that she requires less food and drink to sustain herself, for example but I don't think she has actually died. I could be wrong and I've read some good arguments otherwise but either way this raises the question of whether or not this has a similar but lesser effect on personality. Perhaps Melisandre is also becoming more her own quintessence (which as far as I can tell is to be a cross between Cassandra and Amelia Bedilia ).

Which raises the question of who else might be either a firewight -or- a partial like Melisandre is above speculated to be? Victarion and Danaerys seem obvious suspects, but what about in the past? Coldhands is still hanging about but he seems to of a different breed entirely (and Patchface yet another).  I'd like to wildly speculate for a bit (don't say you weren't warned) and toss some tinfoil into GRRMstory.

Is it possible that Maegor I actually died during the Trial of the Seven and the man who emerged a month later and immediately laid waste to the Sept of Remembrance was now something more and less than human, parts of himself being lost and replaced with flame (presumably)? I further tinfoil that being a revenant could be what causes the monstrous still births that crop up in the Targ bloodline. The Seed of Death- Khal Drogo, revived by Mirri Maaz Duur's blood magic, "killed" their child retroactively which is why it appeared to have been dead for so long.

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"Monstrous," Mirri Maz Duur finished for him. The knight was a powerful man, yet Dany understood in that moment that the maegi was stronger, and crueler, and infinitely more dangerous. "Twisted. I drew him forth myself. He was scaled like a lizard, blind, with the stub of a tail and small leather wings like the wings of a bat. When I touched him, the flesh sloughed off the bone, and inside he was full of graveworms and the stink of corruption. He had been dead for years." ... AGoT

Of course, this means that at the very least both Daemon Targaryen and Aegon IV would also have to be revenants. I don't have any real idea when wither one might have shuffled this mortal coil but they do both have witchy lovers (which could explain the stillbirths as well without the revenant business, I reckon but I like to keep my tinfoil shiny) and the idea that Aegon IV, at least, has become more and less than human certainly seems plausible from his behavior as recorded by history. I'm least sure of Daemon but he is the only other possibility that I can think of. Any other monstrous stillbirths anyone can think of?

So what happens if the mother is the revenant? Nothing good, I'm sure. I think Night's Queen may be the prime example of that. If a man becomes the Seed of Death a woman could become the Womb of Undeath- like Night's Queen, perhaps.

On the "types" of revenants:

Classification with no real data is obviously impossible. Are Beric and Lady Stoneheart of a type of is there an inherent difference by reason of manner of creation. Nevertheless there are also some obvious differences. The wights seem to be almost totally mindless while the other kinds vary. Coldhands seems on par with the firewight, providing that steadfast devotion to his Night's Watch vows are his quintessence of character. Patchface seems to be radically altered, but I'm not entirely sure that he is Patchface. Or at least the same Patchface who left Volantis. Are the Drowned Men revenants, partial revenants, or just the recipients of CPR? Either way "What is dead may never die..."

What am I missing? Chime in with all of your revenant-relevant tinfoil!

[The Sleeper]

Hm. Zombies

Two more revenants are Moqorro and Robert Strong. 

I think it is definitive that Moqorro is a fire wight. He couldn't have survived at sea otherwise. Robert Strong is a case all of its own. 

That makes for four types of revenants, so far. I'm not sure about Patchface. He might simply have been brain damaged due to hypothermia and dehydration and not have actually died. 

Considering that Melisandre does not need to eat, she is well on her way to being a fire wight if she is not already one. Because apparently neither Beric nor Cat need to sleep, she is not quite there yet. On that note we might a new category of individuals who are somewhere in between and whose life processes are supplemented or partly replaced by magic. Bloodraven could fit in that category. 

We have the most information about fire wights. Not because of their numbers, but because they are named individuals who continue to interact. I think we can definitely say they are fixated on their mission and according to Beric parts of their lives at least appear to be gone. We never knew how Beric was when alive so we cannot compare, but we can probably assume that he wouldn't be playing Robin Hood in the Riverlands. He does not lack awareness however. The changes in Cat, considering the circumstances of her death are more difficult to pinpoint. I mean had she survived and somehow escaped I could easily imagine her acting in more or less the same way. The most striking difference I see is a complete disregard for concepts of honor and rules of war. For instance Cat while alive was shocked at the notion of executing prisoners. Lady Stoneheart does this rootinely. I suppose one could construe this new ruthlessness as part of her fixation on her mission. 

Their own physical difference between them and the ice wights is that they can be killed in a more or less conventional fashion. Or at least Beric could. I could say that he maintained some semblance of normal life which is why he can be killed, but that is relative as well. He is walking around with a caved in skull. 

I think it has do with what Master Aemon said that fire consumes but ice preserves.

Apart from the blue eyes, Coldhands does not appear physically different than the ice wights made by the others. It might be my idea, but he appears utterly dispassionate while Beric and Uncat show definite signs of emotion even passion. We do not know though that like the ice wights he can shrug off physical damage, but he does appear to have their sensitivity to fire as he tends to avoid it. 

That and certain other hints lead me to believe that the wights of the Others are not mindless, but enslaved or suborned. I also see a parallel with enslaved individuals who have been deprived of their voices such as Euron's crew and Varys' little birds and who appear as little more than extensions of their masters. 

I think that the death that pays for the life of the revenants is their own and that their spirits are trapped in their flesh while the magic that animates them forms their overall behaviour. 

[The Sleeper]

We forgot the Undying of Qarth. They introduce the concept that some of the corpses we have that appear to be up and walking about appear to need sustenance. This may be the case with the various victim Qyburn requested from Cersei. 

It does not appear to be the case with fire wights. The ice wights appear drawn to the living. This may be a behavioural characteristic, innate or imposed by the Others, or they might be seeking sustenance. Coldhands does not appear, to share this tendency, however. And the ice wights themselves appear able to keep going as long as they remain in low temperatures. 

So, if we needed to categorise, I think we have three types that correspond with various kinds of magic. 

The first type is ice wights which are dispassionate, virtually indestructible as long as they remain in low temperatures and do not require sustenance. 

Fire wights which are obsessed/fixated, can be killed destroyed more or less like regular people and do not require sustenance. 

And the last would be revenants created by blood magic, of unknown vulnerability or disposition, but require the blood of the living to keep on ticking. 

[Springwatch]

Both Beric and Cat took on more of the nature of fire when they became revenants. I mean, a rigid, unbending honour, and a frozen peace are things to associate with ice, not fire. Fire is painful, wild, destructive. The new versions of Beric and Cat are both less peaceable (constant war) and less honourable (fighting the Hound with fire; executing near-innocents).

1 hour ago, The Sleeper said:

That and certain other hints lead me to believe that the wights of the Others are not mindless, but enslaved or suborned. I also see a parallel with enslaved individuals who have been deprived of their voices such as Euron's crew and Varys' little birds and who appear as little more than extensions of their masters. 

I think that the death that pays for the life of the revenants is their own and that their spirits are trapped in their flesh while the magic that animates them forms their overall behaviour. 

This.

[Springwatch]

1 hour ago, The Sleeper said:

We forgot the Undying of Qarth. They introduce the concept that some of the corpses we have that appear to be up and walking about appear to need sustenance.

Got the quote for this:

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Ten thousand slaves lifted bloodstained hands as she raced by on her silver, riding like the wind. "Mother!" they cried. "Mother, mother!" They were reaching for her, touching her, tugging at her cloak, the hem of her skirt, her foot, her leg, her breast. They wanted her, needed her, the fire, the life, and Dany gasped and opened her arms to give herself to them....

But then black wings buffeted round her head, and a scream of fury cut the indigo air, and suddenly the visions were gone, ripped away, and Dany's gasp turned to horror. The Undying were all around her,  blue and cold, whispering as they reached her, pulling, stroking, tugging at her clothes, touching her with their dry cold hands, twining their fingers through her hair. All the strength had left her limbs. She could not move. Even her heart had ceased to beat. She felt a hand on her bare breast, twisting her nipple. Teeth found the soft skin of her throat. A mouth descended on one eye, licking, sucking, biting....

[ACOK - DAENERYS IV]

Followed shortly by:

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"Fire is life up here," said Qhorin Halfhand, "but it can be death as well."

ACOK - JON VI

 

[hiemal]

12 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

Hm. Zombies

Two more revenants are Moqorro and Robert Strong. 

I think it is definitive that Moqorro is a fire wight. He couldn't have survived at sea otherwise. Robert Strong is a case all of its own. 

 

Good catch. I had originally mentioned Moqorro and then deleted it as I'm not quite convinced as to his status- but if he is a firewight then he makes an especially interesting contrast with Victarion. We have a child of Fire spat up by the Sea and a child of the Sea revived by Fire. As for Ser Strong- I would probably lump him with the Undying- life preserved or revived through corruption and poison.

12 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

That makes for four types of revenants, so far. I'm not sure about Patchface. He might simply have been brain damaged due to hypothermia and dehydration and not have actually died. 
 

He is an enigma wrapped in a conundrum wrapped in motely. All bets are off with that one, but I lean towards him either being a revenant or (outside chance) being an imposter of some kind.

12 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

Considering that Melisandre does not need to eat, she is well on her way to being a fire wight if she is not already one. Because apparently neither Beric nor Cat need to sleep, she is not quite there yet. On that note we might a new category of individuals who are somewhere in between and whose life processes are supplemented or partly replaced by magic. Bloodraven could fit in that category. 

 

BR is another of the borderline cases. He seems to have replaced parts of himself physically (roots growing through his body) so I'm not sure where that falls on the category of revival. If we count him, and the other "enthroned" greenseers as revenants that would make five types?

12 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

We have the most information about fire wights. Not because of their numbers, but because they are named individuals who continue to interact. I think we can definitely say they are fixated on their mission and according to Beric parts of their lives at least appear to be gone. We never knew how Beric was when alive so we cannot compare, but we can probably assume that he wouldn't be playing Robin Hood in the Riverlands. He does not lack awareness however. The changes in Cat, considering the circumstances of her death are more difficult to pinpoint. I mean had she survived and somehow escaped I could easily imagine her acting in more or less the same way. The most striking difference I see is a complete disregard for concepts of honor and rules of war. For instance Cat while alive was shocked at the notion of executing prisoners. Lady Stoneheart does this rootinely. I suppose one could construe this new ruthlessness as part of her fixation on her mission. 

Their own physical difference between them and the ice wights is that they can be killed in a more or less conventional fashion. Or at least Beric could. I could say that he maintained some semblance of normal life which is why he can be killed, but that is relative as well. He is walking around with a caved in skull.

I wonder if his hair and fingernails continue to grow after wightification?

12 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

I think it has do with what Master Aemon said that fire consumes but ice preserves. Apart from the blue eyes, Coldhands does not appear physically different than the ice wights made by the others. It might be my idea, but he appears utterly dispassionate while Beric and Uncat show definite signs of emotion even passion. We do not know though that like the ice wights he can shrug off physical damage, but he does appear to have their sensitivity to fire as he tends to avoid it. 

 

Quite possibly, but what does ice preserve in the wightification process? If Colhands is some kind of Icewight how does he differ from the run-of-the-mill White-Walker-created variety?

12 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

That and certain other hints lead me to believe that the wights of the Others are not mindless, but enslaved or suborned. I also see a parallel with enslaved individuals who have been deprived of their voices such as Euron's crew and Varys' little birds and who appear as little more than extensions of their masters. 

I think that the death that pays for the life of the revenants is their own and that their spirits are trapped in their flesh while the magic that animates them forms their overall behaviour. 

Creepy thought.

[hiemal]

11 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

We forgot the Undying of Qarth. They introduce the concept that some of the corpses we have that appear to be up and walking about appear to need sustenance. This may be the case with the various victim Qyburn requested from Cersei. 

 

I totally forgot them, and they deserve a spot on this list. I suspect that make up another type of revenant, one that uses the corrupting magic of the Deep Ones, which may or may not link them in some way to the Ironborn and the Drowned God.

For completeness I feel I should also mention the Faceless Men, who do not actually revive anyone (that would be self-defeating) but do grant at least some of their victims some kind of continuance as it seems that bits of their personality cling to the magically-preserved faces.

 

[Universal Sword Donor]

Just one more thing to toss in:

“I fear no shade, ser. It is written in The Seven-Pointed Star that spirits, wights, and revenants cannot harm a pious man, so long as he is armored in his faith.”

So how hard and fast will the Holy Hundred die in the war against the Others?

 

[hiemal]

10 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Got the quote for this:

Followed shortly by:

 

I only want to add that hunger is not necessarily need. They could desire the life that Dany has (or the elemental fire if she has at least to some extant begun the process of firewightification) without requiring it for life. I get the feeling the Undying don't actually do a whole lot, but watch and plan and dream.

[hiemal]

1 minute ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Just one more thing to toss in:

“I fear no shade, ser. It is written in The Seven-Pointed Star that spirits, wights, and revenants cannot harm a pious man, so long as he is armored in his faith.”

So how hard and fast will the Holy Hundred die in the war against the Others?

 

Yeah, I don't like their chances. Poor Ser Bonifer Hasty. Unless the Seven can actually live up to his boasts. That would be an interesting twist.

[The Sleeper]

11 hours ago, hiemal said:

BR is another of the borderline cases. He seems to have replaced parts of himself physically (roots growing through his body) so I'm not sure where that falls on the category of revival. If we count him, and the other "enthroned" greenseers as revenants that would make five types?

Shouldn't they be dead first before they can be considered revenants? I am fairly sure that the thrones are life support and the other children in the thrones are not greenseers, but old and dying and uploading into the trees. There is a reason they call BR the last greenseers. After all if they still had greenseers of their own what would they need Bloodraven or Bran for that matter. 

 

11 hours ago, hiemal said:

Quite possibly, but what does ice preserve in the wightification process? If Colhands is some kind of Icewight how does he differ from the run-of-the-mill White-Walker-created variety?

Memory? The body itself? Coldhand's most obvious difference would be that he isn't controlled by the Others. He might have been raised by them but liberated by Bloodraven. 

 

11 hours ago, hiemal said:

Creepy thought. 

Well, we are talking about walking corpses. 

 

11 hours ago, hiemal said:

I only want to add that hunger is not necessarily need. They could desire the life that Dany has (or the elemental fire if she has at least to some extant begun the process of firewightification) without requiring it for life. I get the feeling the Undying don't actually do a whole lot, but watch and plan and dream.

That is a good observation and it might certainly the case. On the other hand the Warlock's diminished power and influence could be because their patrons, the Undying, have not had anything good to eat due to the waning of magic. 

 

11 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Just one more thing to toss in:

“I fear no shade, ser. It is written in The Seven-Pointed Star that spirits, wights, and revenants cannot harm a pious man, so long as he is armored in his faith.”

So how hard and fast will the Holy Hundred die in the war against the Others?

 

 

11 hours ago, hiemal said:

Yeah, I don't like their chances. Poor Ser Bonifer Hasty. Unless the Seven can actually live up to his boasts. That would be an interesting twist.

You never know. The priests of the seven might have had access to magic of their own at one time that they attributed to Faith, which has been forgotten since, by and large but might be remembered by some sect within the Faith. Individuals like Shepton Barth, appeared to have dabbled. The Northmen have lost their magic and forgotten their own rites, after all. 

This is unlikely to be of much help to Hasty, though I doubt he will make it to the end before winding up decorating a tree curtesy of Lady Stoneheart's and the BwB. 

A folklore reference to revenant or at least necromancy of some sort is Clarence Crab's witch wife who supposedly kept the heads of his vanquished enemies for their knowledge. This could be allude to weirwoods preserving the knowledge of the dead, or considering what else we have seen in this series could be quite literal. 

[Springwatch]

14 hours ago, hiemal said:

I only want to add that hunger is not necessarily need. They could desire the life that Dany has (or the elemental fire if she has at least to some extant begun the process of firewightification) without requiring it for life. I get the feeling the Undying don't actually do a whole lot, but watch and plan and dream.

 

3 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

That is a good observation and it might certainly the case. On the other hand the Warlock's diminished power and influence could be because their patrons, the Undying, have not had anything good to eat due to the waning of magic. 

 

I'm thinking life and spiritual fire and magic are very closely related things. Spirits are likened to stars in the night sky, but some burn brighter than others. IIRC, spirits are likened to candle flames, but a few are described as torches, they burn brighter. That's why the Undying want to consume Dany, she is good to eat, she is - energy dense - in some way.

[hiemal]

5 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

Shouldn't they be dead first before they can be considered revenants? I am fairly sure that the thrones are life support and the other children in the thrones are not greenseers, but old and dying and uploading into the trees. There is a reason they call BR the last greenseers. After all if they still had greenseers of their own what would they need Bloodraven or Bran for that matter.

Har! Probably, but I'm still working on a better term for those like Melisandre who I think are easing into undeath like a hot bath rather than plunging in. BR seems almost a cyborg, Larch Vader- more tree than man. How much of his humanity remains compared to Beric or LSH?

I think the more-"absorbed" greenseers have simply completed more of their regimen and are almost completely submerged in the weirnet.

6 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

That is a good observation and it might certainly the case. On the other hand the Warlock's diminished power and influence could be because their patrons, the Undying, have not had anything good to eat due to the waning of magic.

Good point- perhaps they could actually have regained that semblance of vitality they beguiled Dany with if they had actually absorbed her fire and blood.

6 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

You never know. The priests of the seven might have had access to magic of their own at one time that they attributed to Faith, which has been forgotten since, by and large but might be remembered by some sect within the Faith. Individuals like Shepton Barth, appeared to have dabbled. The Northmen have lost their magic and forgotten their own rites, after all. 

This is unlikely to be of much help to Hasty, though I doubt he will make it to the end before winding up decorating a tree curtesy of Lady Stoneheart's and the BwB.

Sudden spitball for the irony- Ser Hasty -IS- a revenant or will become one. IIRC correctly, Hasty became so pious after a tourney in which he lost the joust to Selmy. Hasty had been planning to name Rhaella Targaryen the Queen of Love and Beauty. What if that change in personality and motivation was due to having been "wightified" after having been injured in the lists? Seems like a long shot but the link to a Targ makes it not entirely impossible even if it seems chronologically problematic. On the other hand he could also be revived later by someone associated with the Seven if- another spitball- the Gravedigger is the Hound revived through the grace of the Seven and not just recovered from serious injuries. Another dramtic personality shift perhaps? Will Cleganebowl be undead vs. undead?

6 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

 

A folklore reference to revenant or at least necromancy of some sort is Clarence Crab's witch wife who supposedly kept the heads of his vanquished enemies for their knowledge. This could be allude to weirwoods preserving the knowledge of the dead, or considering what else we have seen in this series could be quite literal. 

Love it!

[hiemal]

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

 

 

I'm thinking life and spiritual fire and magic are very closely related things. Spirits are likened to stars in the night sky, but some burn brighter than others. IIRC, spirits are likened to candle flames, but a few are described as torches, they burn brighter. That's why the Undying want to consume Dany, she is good to eat, she is - energy dense - in some way.

If she has replaced part of her vital energy with elemental fire during the Lightbringer pyre than that would make a lot of sense. Or perhaps Valyrian blood is just naturally packed with arcane vitamins and minerals that all magical abominations need. I think she probably is special at this point.

[The Sleeper]

An idle thought about weirwoods and revenants/necromancy. 

We have two instances in the books about young uncarved weirwoods. While at Brian's chapter we have mention of weirwoods seeds, we are also told that clusters are very rare. This suggests that they do not sprout like normal trees.

The two locations of the young weirwoods are the Whispers and the Nightfort, both places with legends of necromancy, bloodletting and potential human sacrifice in the latter case. Also both abandoned. So perhaps the seeds of the weirwoods only spout under circumstances where necromancy has been practised.