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Lumosaca

Tywin or Jon Arryn? Who was the best ruler of the Seven Kingdoms?

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Two of the most famous Hands of the King. Which one had more capacity of bringing prosperity to the Seven Kingdoms?

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For prosperity and the health of the economy, the team of King Aerys II and Tywin Lannister.

For rooting out rebels and keeping track of possible mischief makers, Brynden Rivers and any Targaryen monarch.

 

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9 hours ago, Lumosaca said:

Two of the most famous Hands of the King. Which one had more capacity of bringing prosperity to the Seven Kingdoms?

Rossart was better than both combined 

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As Pycelle said, Tywin was pretty much born as the perfect politician.  Jon Arryn did an admirable job considering his circumstances. He was an old man who had probably never thought he'd ever be on the Small Council let alone be Hand of the King one day. Whereas Tywin had high ambitions for himself and his family. Had Tywin been Robert's hand in peacetime he would have snuffed out someone like Baelish.

I honestly believe Jon Arryn appointed Baelish Master of Coin just so he'd be in the capitol to sleep with his wife to get her off his case. Believing Robert drained the treasury was one thing but to not start getting suspicious or worried after the Crown took out loans from House Lannister, Bravos, The Faith, is a whole other story. He should have looked into where all that money was going to figure out how to curb the spending. As we see from Tyrion though Baelish coded his books so I doubt Jon Arryn ever asked to look at them directly.

Edited by Ralphis Baratheon

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Considering that during Arryn's time King's Landing was a haven of corruption, control over the kingdom's finances got lost, at least partly due to his own appointee as Master of Coin and there was large amount of intrigue between Cersei and Robert's brothers which escalated into the war of the five Kings, I don't think that anyone could call Arryn's tenure a success. Still consolidating the rule of a new dynasty with no further violence than the actual rebellion is no small feat.

Tywin's tenure appears to have been quiet for the most part. That generally would be a mark, but we don't know much of the particulars. The king being taken hostage under his watch is not a mark in his favor. 

So I would say Septon Barth, followed by Viserys II. 

Edited by The Sleeper

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Jon Arryn had a much bigger challenge during his time then Tywin, but he let it happen.

He let corruption in the small concil go wild with figures like LF(his on appointment), the marriage he pushed Robert in was a complete disaster, the city watch was in the command of Janos Slynt... the crow was in heavy debt, he failed to see the plots around the court and got murdered and let a crazy Cersei usurpe the royal sucession line, causing the biggest war since the RR.

can't say he did a good job.

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7 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Tywin annulled the reforms done in Aegon V's time and favoured the nobility before the smallfolk. Depends if you consider this a good or a bad thing.

Yup, it depends on your point of view, partly.  Aegon V was not considered an effective king.  He was chosen rather than inherited.  He was weak.  Maybe his reforms were too silly to work.  Duncan had too much influence on the boy that he was.  

 

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25 minutes ago, Son of Man said:

Yup, it depends on your point of view, partly.  Aegon V was not considered an effective king.  He was chosen rather than inherited.  He was weak.  Maybe his reforms were too silly to work.  Duncan had too much influence on the boy that he was.  

 

Egg wasnt weak at all, to go against the higher nobility in favor of the smallfolk is a sign of a great man. His reforms were a slap in the face to all of the Nobility so he obviously was a couragous man. 

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14 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Tywin annulled the reforms done in Aegon V's time and favoured the nobility before the smallfolk. Depends if you consider this a good or a bad thing.

It was good for the realm as it brought peace. Westeros was clearly not ready for those changes at that time, it brought instability to the kingdom and Aegon needed dragons to stand a chance of properly enforcing them. 

Social change often takes many, many years, maybe even decades of laying the groundwork to get right, implementing it too soon can do more damage than good.

 

6 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

Egg wasnt weak at all,

Not as a man but as a ruler. A stronger ruler would have ensured he had some support for any unpopular laws he might try to enforce, instead his own son, Jaehaerys  started reforming his laws soon after his father had died.

 

12 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Jon Arryn had a much bigger challenge during his time then Tywin,

Tywin had to manage a petulant and eventually insane king who was happy to sabotage Tywin's decisions if it made him look bad. Robert, as lazy as he was, was a picnic in comparison. 

Robert's crown was actually more secure. His father-in-law was the ruler of the Westerlands, his brother the ruler of the Stormlands, his 'adopted' father the ruler of the Vale, best friend the ruler of the North and the ruler of the Riverlands related to both Ned and Jon. The vast majority of the realm was in favor of him. 

Aerys, in contrast, was married to his sister while his parents were brother and sister. His two closest friends were the rulers of the West and Stormlands but he lost both of them when he married his son to a Martell. Tywin not only had to manage crazy, but was doing so knowing that the majority of the realm were, at best, neutral on Aerys. Oh, and lets not forget that Aerys also wanted a war with Braavos.

Tywin had the bigger challenge, the four Hands who followed in the year after him is testament to that.

 

Tywin is probably the 3rd best Hand in the history of the realm, Arryn may just make the to 10. 

 

 

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Tywin kept much better control. Robert's reign had an appearance of peace though as said above he was well connected but really in Jon Arryn's hands KL's was corrupt and power given to the wrong people destabilizing things behind the scene. The Lannister's had too much power and the fact his wife had influence over him imo says a lot.    

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On 8/24/2018 at 9:09 PM, Lumosaca said:

Two of the most famous Hands of the King. Which one had more capacity of bringing prosperity to the Seven Kingdoms?

Twin has been hand techbicaly twice and both times he showed he was amazing at the job

Jon arryn defused the dornish anger  , secured the  realm with the lannisters through marriage and brought with him a kid (lf) who increased the realms income x10 BUT he was ineffective in keeping robert in track as a person thus he drifted further from his job and allowed the deviois small council to grow steadily stronger and he let robert take the full treasury and increased incomes and still beggar the realm!!!

By contrast tywin calmed diwn a young aerys and gave the realm peace and prosperity for decades,then when made hand again in short time we see his brillance at court  if through tyrions biased eyes! 

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I think @Bernie Mac described Arryn as hand perfectly in another thread with one word; mediocre.

He failed to get the man who would see Aryn as father-figure, to curb his spending habits, and did not do enough to try to reconcile with Dorne-the marriage arrangement to have Mycella and a Dornish prince to be married should have happened years ago. 

Tywin by contrast was a great hand.

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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20 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

ealm as it brought peace. Westeros was clearly not ready for those changes at that time, it brought instability to the kingdom and Aegon needed dragons to stand a chance of properly enforcing them. 

 Social change often takes many, many years, maybe even decades of laying the groundwork to get right, implementing it too soon can do more damage than good.

What were the reforms of Aegon V? 

20 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Not as a man but as a ruler. A stronger ruler would have ensured he had some support for any unpopular laws he might try to enforce, instead his own son, Jaehaerys  started reforming his laws soon after his father had died.

Fair enough. How would one go about gaining the support for his reforms?

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