Jump to content

How aware is Sansa of Jeyne Poole (TWoW spoilers included)


Ellard Stark

Recommended Posts

23 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Sansa’s options are very limited until she finds trustworthy help.

Indeed. And, as we've seen, Sansa has not been a good judge of character. In the TWoW chapter,

Spoiler

we learn that Littlefinger has just hired The Mad Mouse, who Brienne Tarth has learned is specifically on the trail of young Sansa Stark. Might he pose as her rescuer? While hustling her along into Cersei's now unopposed clutches? Tragically, he's mouse-sized, since ...

Sansa will likely insist that any rescuer be an actual knight, and sufficiently tall and good looking. Any of the Kettleblack boys would do, in other words, if Littlefinger can break any of them out of King's Landing. It would, in fact, be a good time for them to get out of Dodge. Which would just mean another Ramsey-like scenario of apparent escape and then re-capture.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/27/2018 at 11:50 AM, zandru said:

Indeed. And, as we've seen, Sansa has not been a good judge of character. In the TWoW chapter,

  Reveal hidden contents

we learn that Littlefinger has just hired The Mad Mouse, who Brienne Tarth has learned is specifically on the trail of young Sansa Stark. Might he pose as her rescuer? While hustling her along into Cersei's now unopposed clutches? Tragically, he's mouse-sized, since ...

Sansa will likely insist that any rescuer be an actual knight, and sufficiently tall and good looking. Any of the Kettleblack boys would do, in other words, if Littlefinger can break any of them out of King's Landing. It would, in fact, be a good time for them to get out of Dodge. Which would just mean another Ramsey-like scenario of apparent escape and then re-capture.

I guess Sandor doesn't meet the criteria. So no SanSan.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/26/2018 at 3:10 AM, The Sleeper said:

The difference is not visible to the naked eye. Particularly to people who have met said person intermittently for brief periods over years. Jeyne being two years older than Arya is an inconsistency but not a definitive one. 

The second part is a good question. At the very least Bolton reputation will take a blow. Whether one considers them as being duped or being the deceivers, is bad. The various houses would dust up their genealogical trees to see when was their latest marriage to a Stark and considering how they might press a claim. The worst is outright rebellion. 

Call it results; Arya hasn't flowered yet and Jeyne has; an 11-year-old (theoretically) is a rather rare sight. And I thought brown eyes, which are what Jeyne has, aren't part of the Stark gene pool, which is brown hair and grey eyes, with some auburn hair and blue eyes with Catelyn's phenotype added in. 

I was specifically referring to Jeyne's fate if anyone else found out that she's not Arya. And why can't she say she's not Arya?...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

55 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I was specifically referring to Jeyne's fate if anyone else found out that she's not Arya. And why can't she say she's not Arya?...

Ramsey no likee. And we've learned what he does with women he's tired of. Moreover, Jeyne would have no intrinsic value as heir-bearer, Winterfell-inheritor, or even minor nobility to protect her. She's basically smallfolk, and her entire family is dead, so there's none who would seek revenge. At best, Jeyne could hope that a dog would be named in her "honor."

Also, poor old Reek, who vetted "Arya", would discover new levels of pain, disfigurement, and humiliation for letting this happen to Ramsey Snow. Er, "Bolton".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

52 minutes ago, zandru said:

Ramsey no likee. And we've learned what he does with women he's tired of. Moreover, Jeyne would have no intrinsic value as heir-bearer, Winterfell-inheritor, or even minor nobility to protect her. She's basically smallfolk, and her entire family is dead, so there's none who would seek revenge. At best, Jeyne could hope that a dog would be named in her "honor."

Also, poor old Reek, who vetted "Arya", would discover new levels of pain, disfigurement, and humiliation for letting this happen to Ramsey Snow. Er, "Bolton".

You might be right, unfortunately. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Call it results; Arya hasn't flowered yet and Jeyne has; an 11-year-old (theoretically) is a rather rare sight. And I thought brown eyes, which are what Jeyne has, aren't part of the Stark gene pool, which is brown hair and grey eyes, with some auburn hair and blue eyes with Catelyn's phenotype added in. 

It's not clear that the Northern lords have a really good idea of what Arya looks like.  Those who would have visited Winterfell are mostly dead or not present.  The only place we know she visited is White Harbour, and that was at least 2 years back.  And given that Whtie Harbour is the North's only city and its commercial center, the visits were probably more to buy stuff and do other city activities than they were for visiting the Manderlys (although they probably did pay a visit),  

I don't think Jayne had flowered yet when they left Winterfell, either.  In any event, at that age, children develop and change appearance rather rapidly, and it's not as if they have photos to compare her to.

3 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

I was specifically referring to Jeyne's fate if anyone else found out that she's not Arya. And why can't she say she's not Arya?...

If at Winterfell, Ramsay would probably retaliate, and his retaliation tends to be quite painful and unpleasant.  Outside of it, she has reason to fear that, if she reveals who she really is, nobody will be willing to help her, and she will end up alone and abandoned.  In fact, in the Theon preview chapter

Theon advises her to continue the masquerade for precisely that reason.

.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/27/2018 at 9:50 AM, zandru said:

Indeed. And, as we've seen, Sansa has not been a good judge of character. In the TWoW chapter,

  Reveal hidden contents

we learn that Littlefinger has just hired The Mad Mouse, who Brienne Tarth has learned is specifically on the trail of young Sansa Stark. Might he pose as her rescuer? While hustling her along into Cersei's now unopposed clutches? Tragically, he's mouse-sized, since ...

Sansa will likely insist that any rescuer be an actual knight, and sufficiently tall and good looking. Any of the Kettleblack boys would do, in other words, if Littlefinger can break any of them out of King's Landing. It would, in fact, be a good time for them to get out of Dodge. Which would just mean another Ramsey-like scenario of apparent escape and then re-capture.

Actually, I expect that if she seeks out help, it will be from a high-level lord.  She would need someone who has sufficient power, influence, and wealth to be able to actually give her useful assistance and protection.  And at this point, I think she has sufficient savvy to realize that fact.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

 

I was specifically referring to Jeyne's fate if anyone else found out that she's not Arya. And why can't she say she's not Arya?...

 

2 hours ago, zandru said:

Ramsey no likee. And we've learned what he does with women he's tired of. Moreover, Jeyne would have no intrinsic value as heir-bearer, Winterfell-inheritor, or even minor nobility to protect her. She's basically smallfolk, and her entire family is dead, so there's none who would seek revenge. At best, Jeyne could hope that a dog would be named in her "honor."

Also, poor old Reek, who vetted "Arya", would discover new levels of pain, disfigurement, and humiliation for letting this happen to Ramsey Snow. Er, "Bolton".

Oh. Unfortunately, things are unlikely to be much better with Bolton's enemies. At best, her only value would be as witness to Bolton's fraudulence, which could place her in further danger. At worst she will be considered complicit in perpetrating the fraud looking to secure a better station for herself, regardless of her having little choice in the matter. Nothing good would come for her if it becomes known she is not Arya. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 Sansa witnessed this exchange...

Quote

Queen Cersei looked at each of the councilors in turn. "I won't have Sansa fretting needlessly. What shall we do with this little friend of hers, my lords?"

Lord Petyr leaned forward. "I'll find a place for her."

"Not in the city," said the queen.

"Do you take me for a fool?"

The queen ignored that. "Ser Boros, escort this girl to Lord Petyr's apartments and instruct his people to keep her there until he comes for her. Tell her that Littlefinger will be taking her to see her father, that ought to calm her down. I want her gone before Sansa returns to her chamber."

"As you command, Your Grace," Ser Boros said. He bowed deeply, spun on his heel, and took his leave, his long white cloak stirring the air behind him.

Sansa was confused. "I don't understand," she said. "Where is Jeyne's father? Why can't Ser Boros take her to him instead of Lord Petyr having to do it?" She had promised herself she would be a lady, gentle as the queen and as strong as her mother, the Lady Catelyn, but all of a sudden she was scared again. For a second she thought she might cry. "Where are you sending her? She hasn't done anything wrong, she's a good girl."

"She's upset you," the queen said gently. "We can't be having that. Not another word, now. Lord Baelish will see that Jeyne's well taken care of, I promise you." She patted the chair beside her. "Sit down, Sansa. I want to talk to you."

Sansa IV, Game 51

So, Sansa should know that Petyr should know what happened to her “truest friend.” But this next bit suggests that Sansa has suppressed that knowledge...

Quote

If only she had someone to tell her what to do. She missed Septa Mordane, and even more Jeyne Poole, her truest friend. The septa had lost her head with the rest, for the crime of serving House Stark. Sansa did not know what had happened to Jeyne, who had disappeared from her rooms afterward, never to be mentioned again. She tried not to think of them too often, yet sometimes the memories came unbidden, and then it was hard to hold back the tears. Once in a while, Sansa even missed her sister. By now Arya was safe back in Winterfell, dancing and sewing, playing with Bran and baby Rickon, even riding through the winter town if she liked. Sansa was allowed to go riding too, but only in the bailey, and it got boring going round in a circle all day.

Sansa II, Clash 18

We would see that Sansa would go on to recall Jeyne at least three times, but apparently, she never thinks to ask Petyr what happened to her “truest friend” after he agreed to find a place for her outside King’s Landing. Of course, we learn that Petyr has pimped Sansa's “truest friend” into a whore and pawned her off as Arya to Ramsay, who in turn, has abused her savagely. Thanks to Theon, Jeyne has escaped Ramsay, and Stannis then sends her on to Jon Snow at Castle Black with Justin Massey and Tycho Nestoris, both of whom will be traveling on to Eastwatch and Braavos. And we should recall that Jon thinks to send Arya to Braavos if he can...

Quote

 

He wanted to believe it would be Arya. He wanted to see her face again, to smile at her and muss her hair, to tell her she was safe. She won' t be safe though. Winterfell is burned and broken and there are no more safe places.

He could not keep her here with him, no matter how much he might want to. The Wall was no place for a woman, much less a girl of noble birth. Nor was he about to turn her over to Stannis or Melisandre. The king would only want to marry her to one of his own men, Horpe or Massey or Godrey Giantslayer. and the gods alone knew what use the red woman might want to make of her.

The best solution he could see would mean dispatching her to Eastwatch and asking Cotter Pyke to put her on a ship to someplace across the sea, beyond the reach of all these quarrelsome kings. It would need to wait until the ships returned from Hardhome, to be sure. She could return to Braavos with Tycho Nestoris. Perhaps the Iron Bank could help find some noble family to foster her. Braavos was the nearest of the Free Cities, though … which made it both the best and the worst choice. Lorath or the Port of Ibben might be safer. Wherever he might send her, though, Arya would need silver to support her, a roof above her head, someone to protect her. She was only a child.

 

Jon IX, Dance 44

Sending Jeyne on to Braavos with Tycho Nestoris would make sense for all the same reasons. Imagine what "no one" might learn if she meets Jeyne in Braavos...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Sansa witnessed this exchange...

Thanks for those extensive quotes! I'd forgotten several of the critical details. You make a good point in noting that Sansa had been present when Jeyne was consigned to Lord Baelish - and yet afterwards, she never thinks to ask him, even when he's her very affectionate "father." Yet she has thought of Jeyne frequently. (I missed that one.)

2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

But this next bit suggests that Sansa has suppressed that knowledge...

Sansa is getting good at editing her memories so that her "song" of herself is never discordant or unheroic, isn't she? Running to Cersei to tattle on Lord Stark has clearly become a memory of shame, along with the things she set in motion or failed to object to, when she might have. I know there's a cadre who feel Sansa is becoming or has become a brilliant "player"; I feel that this lying to herself and constructing false memories are an indication that she is NOT. At least, nowhere near yet.

Re: Jon sending "Arya" to Braavos with Tycho Nestoris: It's slightly ironic that Arya (the real one) is, in fact, where Jon feels she'd be the safest. That really does set up the possibility of Jeyne meeting with "No One". Arya would be much more likely to recognize Jeyne than vice versa, and might well scope her out and probe for information without ever revealing herself or dropping her current disguise. Jeyne could possibly never realize her childhood frenemy is very near by.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, zandru said:

Sansa is getting good at editing her memories so that her "song" of herself is never discordant or unheroic, isn't she? Running to Cersei to tattle on Lord Stark has clearly become a memory of shame, along with the things she set in motion or failed to object to, when she might have. I know there's a cadre who feel Sansa is becoming or has become a brilliant "player"; I feel that this lying to herself and constructing false memories are an indication that she is NOT. At least, nowhere near yet.

Interesting point, however, I don’t know if being self-deluding necessarily makes you a bad player. Case in point is Littlefinger. He’s clearly utterly deluded about his relationship with Cat, and has edited his memories to suit his “song”.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

I guess Sandor doesn't meet the criteria. So no SanSan.

Dontos didn't meet those criteria either. Nor Willas. Not really Sansa's criteria then.

14 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

So, Sansa should know that Petyr should know what happened to her “truest friend.” But this next bit suggests that Sansa has suppressed that knowledge...

Suppressed her own knowledge? How does that work?

She hasn't had a major head injury, and she hasn't taken a forgetfulness potion. And it's not a likely thing, to forget your best friend, so why not take the realistic option, which is that she has not in fact forgotten the danger to Jeyne? Nor has she forgotten her father being beheaded right in front of her, the slaughter of the Stark household at KL, the heads of her father and septa on spikes, and later the Red Wedding, the fall of Winterfell, the murder of her brothers....

Give the girl a break. Even at the halfway stage of that little litany of horror, she's entitled to be traumatised, and so it's entirely natural to cling to the slimmest of hopes, that Jeyne might somehow be ok, that Arya somehow made it to Winterfell and is safe.

And Littlefinger has made himself impossible to trust - by boasting to her about his own deviousness, by forcing sexual advances on her, and most of all by murdering his loyal pawns Dontos and Lysa, with Sansa as a witness. Not hard to see a lesson there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, zandru said:

Thanks for those extensive quotes! I'd forgotten several of the critical details. You make a good point in noting that Sansa had been present when Jeyne was consigned to Lord Baelish - and yet afterwards, she never thinks to ask him, even when he's her very affectionate "father." Yet she has thought of Jeyne frequently. (I missed that one.)

Sansa is getting good at editing her memories so that her "song" of herself is never discordant or unheroic, isn't she? Running to Cersei to tattle on Lord Stark has clearly become a memory of shame, along with the things she set in motion or failed to object to, when she might have. I know there's a cadre who feel Sansa is becoming or has become a brilliant "player"; I feel that this lying to herself and constructing false memories are an indication that she is NOT. At least, nowhere near yet.

Re: Jon sending "Arya" to Braavos with Tycho Nestoris: It's slightly ironic that Arya (the real one) is, in fact, where Jon feels she'd be the safest. That really does set up the possibility of Jeyne meeting with "No One". Arya would be much more likely to recognize Jeyne than vice versa, and might well scope her out and probe for information without ever revealing herself or dropping her current disguise. Jeyne could possibly never realize her childhood frenemy is very near by.

 

A very ardent cadre... I suggest you duck.

To the cadre: I like Sansa. I am not a hater. I think she is a tragic character. (It's all those damn lemony lemons.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Dontos didn't meet those criteria either. Nor Willas. Not really Sansa's criteria then.

Suppressed her own knowledge? How does that work?

She hasn't had a major head injury, and she hasn't taken a forgetfulness potion. And it's not a likely thing, to forget your best friend, so why not take the realistic option, which is that she has not in fact forgotten the danger to Jeyne? Nor has she forgotten her father being beheaded right in front of her, the slaughter of the Stark household at KL, the heads of her father and septa on spikes, and later the Red Wedding, the fall of Winterfell, the murder of her brothers....

Give the girl a break. Even at the halfway stage of that little litany of horror, she's entitled to be traumatised, and so it's entirely natural to cling to the slimmest of hopes, that Jeyne might somehow be ok, that Arya somehow made it to Winterfell and is safe.

And Littlefinger has made himself impossible to trust - by boasting to her about his own deviousness, by forcing sexual advances on her, and most of all by murdering his loyal pawns Dontos and Lysa, with Sansa as a witness. Not hard to see a lesson there.

agreed.   Sansa only trusts LF as far as she can throw him.  She is forced to go along with his schemes for now because it suits her, but when she finds an alternative I don't see her sticking around, even with LF's creepy pedo-grooming going on.  I don't know if a) Sansa feels comfortable asking LF about Jeyne or b) Sansa wouldn't trust whatever answer LF gave her about Jeyne, but I would guess it is one of those two things that has kept Sansa from asking about her.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/29/2018 at 5:30 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

A very ardent cadre... I suggest you duck.

To the cadre: I like Sansa. I am not a hater. I think she is a tragic character. (It's all those damn lemony lemons.)

Just for the record, I'm not part of any cadre either (who is?).

I don't want Sansa to become a master player for the same reasons I don't want Arya to become a master swordfighter - it would be lame and unbelievable.

I hope Sansa and Arya play their part in changing the world by using their apprentice-level skills at exactly the right time and place.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I don't want Sansa to become a master player for the same reasons I don't want Arya to become a master swordfighter - it would be lame and unbelievable.

Well, it's my opinion that Arya is much more likely to become a master swordfighter. She's athletic, motivated, and a quick learner. Sansa has been too much of a people-pleaser since she was old enough to struggle into her first dress. And she's continuing to delude herself about herself and her experiences. It's hard to be a good schemer if you partially blind yourself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On ‎8‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 5:50 PM, zandru said:

Indeed. And, as we've seen, Sansa has not been a good judge of character. In the TWoW chapter,

  Reveal hidden contents

we learn that Littlefinger has just hired The Mad Mouse, who Brienne Tarth has learned is specifically on the trail of young Sansa Stark. Might he pose as her rescuer? While hustling her along into Cersei's now unopposed clutches? Tragically, he's mouse-sized, since ...

Sansa will likely insist that any rescuer be an actual knight, and sufficiently tall and good looking. Any of the Kettleblack boys would do, in other words, if Littlefinger can break any of them out of King's Landing. It would, in fact, be a good time for them to get out of Dodge. Which would just mean another Ramsey-like scenario of apparent escape and then re-capture.

Not really, she is not impressed with HtH, and he is good looking. And when she meets the hedge Knights in her last Feast chapter, she never drools over the handsome Ser Byron. In fact, she barely pays any attention to him.

However, she has become good friends with Lothor Brune and sees him as a protector, who isn't pretty at all. She isn't swayed with handsome faces anymore the way she used to be in Game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, zandru said:

Well, it's my opinion that Arya is much more likely to become a master swordfighter. She's athletic, motivated, and a quick learner. Sansa has been too much of a people-pleaser since she was old enough to struggle into her first dress. And she's continuing to delude herself about herself and her experiences. It's hard to be a good schemer if you partially blind yourself.

LF has H-U-G-E blind spots. He's outright delusional when it comes to Catelyn & Sansa. Tywin completely missed twincest when others figured it out long ago. Then there's Illyrio...

All people are partially blind, including successful schemers.

For the record, the idea of a master player who is 14-15 years old is absurd as is a master swordsman who is a pre-teen especially when that pre-teen has had very limited practice time. Sansa is learning some things, and it will be enough, or not. The Starks do alright in the game on offense when it's direct offense. They're terrible at defense and the darker part of the game. Ned, Catelyn, Robb, and Jon have all fallen here in failing to recognize the importance of defense and inability or unwillingness to smell out when things aren't as they seem. This is the game that Sansa is learning. No need to be a master, just need to recognize when defenses are needed and when there's ~something~ going on under the surface.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Firefae said:

Not really, she is not impressed with HtH, and he is good looking. And when she meets the hedge Knights in her last Feast chapter, she never drools over the handsome Ser Byron. In fact, she barely pays any attention to him.

However, she has become good friends with Lothor Brune and sees him as a protector, who isn't pretty at all. She isn't swayed with handsome faces anymore the way she used to be in Game.

:agree:

Adding that she fantasizes over the Hound who is one of the most grotesque looking people in Westeros, she compared Harry to Joffrey whom she called a comely monster. Her favorite stories were of Jonquil and the homely Florian the Fool (note he's not knight), and she had no problem with being rescued by the fool Dontos so long as his middle-aged drunk self didn't try to kiss her.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/28/2018 at 10:45 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

So, Sansa should know that Petyr should know what happened to her “truest friend.” But this next bit suggests that Sansa has suppressed that knowledge...

I wouldn't say "suppressed", necessarily.  Sansa doesn't have these conversations written down to revisit at leisure, and all this was happening in the middle of a very traumatic, confusing period.  She may not remember all the specifics of the conversation, particularly as she probably assumes at this point that Jeyne is dead, like the rest of the Stark household.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...