How aware is Sansa of Jeyne Poole (TWoW spoilers included)

[Springwatch]

6 hours ago, zandru said:

Well, it's my opinion that Arya is much more likely to become a master swordfighter. She's athletic, motivated, and a quick learner. Sansa has been too much of a people-pleaser since she was old enough to struggle into her first dress. And she's continuing to delude herself about herself and her experiences. It's hard to be a good schemer if you partially blind yourself.

I'm not doubting Arya's potential, (I'll trust Syrio and the FM on that), but swordfighting has not been the focus of her training, and the period for learning and practising skills is pretty much over. Things are starting to get real again.

She's got the sword, but I don't want to see her duelling a bravo or an Other - it would be ridiculous if she won. She hasn't got the reach apart from anything. A melee situation, like at the Inn with the Hound, would suit her better, where her speed and observation would count for more.

As for Sansa, if she's going among powerful players, people-pleasing skills will serve her well. Not to mention the ability to hide her true feelings and thoughts, and to lie with absolute conviction. Realistically, she could make an excellent spy or highly placed agent. She doesn't need to beat the players at their own game, she just needs to take advantage when they make the mistake of underestimating her.

[zandru]

55 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

I'm not doubting Arya's potential,

All good points, even including Sansa. We really won't know how things shake out until the ... wait for it ... next book comes out. Until then, it's mostly speculation and wishful thinking. Moreover, I'm thinking that it's been almost the rule that nothing will go the way the readers want it to. For all we know, Dany may break bad.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

She probably thinks that she was killed by the Lannisters like septa Mordane .

[zandru]

13 hours ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

She probably thinks that she was killed by the Lannisters like septa Mordane . 

Possibly, but that would mean Sansa has failed to notice - or possibly hasn't heard - the Lannisters speculating about what happened to that little sister, or agonizing over Robb's/Catelyn's demands that both daughters be returned, to achieve peace. In truth, it seems Sansa has rarely thought about her only sister. Remember, at the very beginning, after she tattles to Cersei and is put into "protective custody", it's a few days before she remembers Arya. In her pov chapters, Sansa rarely thinks of her sister at all, and once (as I noted) just assumes she's living it up back in Winterfell, reveling in doing all the things that Sansa likes to do which Arya hated. The closest Sansa has come to the stereotypical Hollywood-brand of sisterly affection is when she was building snow castles up in the Eyrie.

Should Sansa learn that "Arya" has married Ramsey Snow ("Bolton"), I'm not sure she would have any basis for assuming it wasn't actually Arya. As I think I mentioned earlier. I doubt that Sansa would know what a psychopathic monster Ramsey is, unless Littlefinger told her, and why would he tell her? Sansa similarly wouldn't know that Jeyne is standing in for Arya, unless Littlefinger told her - and again, why would he? Either admission would have a good chance of turning his perfect little tool against him, using everything she's learned from him so far.

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 9/2/2018 at 2:54 PM, Colonel Green said:

I wouldn't say "suppressed", necessarily.  Sansa doesn't have these conversations written down to revisit at leisure, and all this was happening in the middle of a very traumatic, confusing period.  She may not remember all the specifics of the conversation, particularly as she probably assumes at this point that Jeyne is dead, like the rest of the Stark household.

I wouldn't be surprised if your assumption here turned out to be true. The George clearly wanted us to know in that moment that Petyr was going to turn Jeyne into a prostitute in the wake of Cersei's purge, and the only way to do that was through the only POV he had left in the Red Keep. Later, the George might have considered that knowledge by Sansa as inconvenient. But she was aware that Jeyne was being turned over to Petyr. She even asked why Jeyne was being turned over to Petyr instead of her father. 

[Lollygag]

On 9/2/2018 at 2:54 PM, Colonel Green said:

I wouldn't say "suppressed", necessarily.  Sansa doesn't have these conversations written down to revisit at leisure, and all this was happening in the middle of a very traumatic, confusing period.  She may not remember all the specifics of the conversation, particularly as she probably assumes at this point that Jeyne is dead, like the rest of the Stark household.

I very much agree and this is leeway which should be given to characters in general. With most major characters that I can think of, they’ve come across something which should have connected with them but it didn’t because the characters didn’t have a diary they could revisit, they were emotional and distracted in the moment, that thing conflicted with something that they needed or felt they needed to believe, unreliable narrator/the faulty nature of the human memory or they just plain forgot. Why these occur is often the most interesting aspect.

People in real life don’t have memories which are perfect even in ideal circumstances so I don’t see that characters under high stress should be held to a high standard. Tyrion “forgets” what Jeor told him about white walkers when Alliser comes to KL and Tyrion disregards Alliser's warning in fear of being laughed at. Jon overhears plotting about Marsh, Tywin, Slynt, Thorne, etc, but he’s distracted and it doesn’t register like it should have - he's overwhelmed and lacks experience. Arya overhears some things from Roose, but because of her age and isolation, it also doesn’t register like it should. Jaime takes years to realize what he’s known all along about Cersei. Tyrion knows that Tywin has tried to kill him before, but he needs to believe that there’s a chance for acceptance from his family so he “forgets” it and lets his guard down around Tywin. LF needs to believe that Catelyn loves him so he “forgets” certain things. A lot of Sansa’s forgetting or suppression as you will comes from her needing to believe that life is a song. LF tells Ned directly to not trust him yet Ned forgets or suppresses this as he is alone an din over his head and needs someone’s help. Aegon also quickly forgets when Tyrion tells him to not trust him as Aegon goes on to do just that. Tyrion believes in Shae though he tells himself he should know better. What have Jaime and Barristan forgotten, suppressed or failed to connect about RR that they have yet to remember? It’s actually one of the things that I love about GRRM’s characters and it makes them more real.

 

[oakbloodthesap]

This brings up a point that Im surprised hasn't been made. What well jeyne poole say of sansa stark now that she is free, remember that her last encounter with sansa was after the 'purge' and that while she was crying and asking for her father, sansa was sitting quietly reading a book by the fire ( how does that look to someone that witnessed the killing of the stark house hold ) this I think well ruin sansa stark when word spreads of her cold behavior (icey )..Betrayal of house stark, and if jeyne is sent to bravos this side of events might spark Arya Starks return to westeros to hunt for her sister ( combine that with word of Jon snows assassination )( the designing factor in leaving the order, regaining the identity of Arya stark.)
but to answer the op question this might be another example of Sansa stark cognitive dissonance.  (so yes & no)

[Lollygag]

3 minutes ago, oakbloodthesap said:

This brings up a point that Im surprised hasn't been made. What well jeyne poole say of sansa stark now that she is free, remember that her last encounter with sansa was after the 'purge' and that while she was crying and asking for her father, sansa was sitting quietly reading a book by the fire ( how does that look to someone that witnessed the killing of the stark house hold ) this I think well ruin sansa stark when word spreads of her cold behavior (icey )..Betrayal of house stark, and if jeyne is sent to bravos this side of events might spark Arya Starks return to westeros to hunt for her sister ( combine that with word of Jon snows assassination )( the designing factor in leaving the order, regaining the identity of Arya stark.)
but to answer the op question this might be another example of Sansa stark cognitive dissonance.  (so yes & no)

After LF’s whore training, and Ramsey, I don’t think Sansa whom she hasn’t seen since they were children will even register.

 

[oakbloodthesap]

26 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

 

 

After LF’s whore training, and Ramsey, I don’t think Sansa whom she hasn’t seen since they were children will even register.

 

 

 

who do you think she might hold responsible for her torment, after all it wasn't long till sansa got annoyed by her crying. that led to her being  given to littelfinger. and now that she is free many well ask what happened, i doubt she has forgotten.   

[chrisdaw]

Sansa don't give a fuck about any Jeyne Poole unless she's smack bang in front of her.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

 

 

After LF’s whore training, and Ramsey, I don’t think Sansa whom she hasn’t seen since they were children will even register.

 

 

 

I tend to agree.  Jayne has far more pressing things to worry about.  Like, how to avoid being burned for treason, when Stannis discovers that she impersonated Arya and married Ramsay?

[Lollygag]

56 minutes ago, oakbloodthesap said:

who do you think she might hold responsible for her torment, after all it wasn't long till sansa got annoyed by her crying. that led to her being  given to littelfinger. and now that she is free many well ask what happened, i doubt she has forgotten.   

LF, Ramsay, Lannisters.

Do you have anything from the books that this might be the case?

[oakbloodthesap]

5 hours ago, Lollygag said:

LF, Ramsay, Lannisters.

Do you have anything from the books that this might be the case?

correct little finger, Ramsey, the Lannisters, Sansa stark 

as a direct quote? no 

Spoiler

the winds of winter sample chapters make no mention of jeyne poole fake arya starks first meeting with stannis beratheon, before she is shipped off to the wall to see her brother 

look at it through her point of view after witnessing the lannisters, massacure the northmen, she hides only to have her door smashed in by the hound where she is taken to sansa in the maiden tower, " they're killing everyone" is the first thing she screams when they throw her in confinement with sansa. sansa for her part is a on off again emotion crying one moment to geting tired of jeyne constant sobbing about her father. ( in the spaine of two days ) throwing out some half hearted "im certain your father is well" and "i'll ask the queen to let you see him" jeyne in response " but the other girl just looked at her with red, swollen eyes and began to cry all the harder"  it should be noted that sansa remarks of the endless sobbing of jeyne poole " the only sounds were jeyne poole's endless whimpers and sobs" and knowing sansa she more then likely didn't hide her annoyance of jeyne sobbing, 

ok so i just reread the sansa chapter so i was wrong she doesn't read a book during the purge she and jeyne cry and fall asleep in each other arms on the bed " like sisters" however the last time jeyne see's sansa stark she is frendly and courtesies with ser boros " you look vary handsome and splendid this morning, ser boros" this is after they come for sansa to take her to the queen. unfortunitly this undoes most of the theory however this isn't the only time jeyne witness how cold sansa is. during the tournament  of the hand knight of the vale is killed in-front of her and well jeyne is panicing sansa is uneffected simple staring at the man that is dieing. ( actually when sir boros and the guardsmen come for sansa stark jeyne isn't mentioned so she may or may not have heard sansa friendly demeanor 

more over this can be looked at as the first time sansa starks cognitive dissonance appears ( when she and jeyne are in the tower ) add that with grrm statement that sansa is a unreliable narrative and that whole in each others arms like sisters might be a disillusion. 

ok to salvage this jeynes insights into the events of what transpired before ,during and after might paint sansa in a different light then what she her self believes what happened. leading others to question her loyalty to her father and name. 

game of thrones page 543-546  Sansa 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

On ‎9‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 7:54 PM, Colonel Green said:

I wouldn't say "suppressed", necessarily.  Sansa doesn't have these conversations written down to revisit at leisure, and all this was happening in the middle of a very traumatic, confusing period.  She may not remember all the specifics of the conversation, particularly as she probably assumes at this point that Jeyne is dead, like the rest of the Stark household.

That's pretty much it. Everyone died that day. It may be a bit surprising that she never asks Littlefinger about her, but that can easily be explained by trauma. Remember, shortly after that conversation she witnessed her dad's head being chopped off. One can forget all kinds of things after something like that.

On ‎9‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 10:10 PM, Springwatch said:

She's got the sword, but I don't want to see her duelling a bravo or an Other - it would be ridiculous if she won. She hasn't got the reach apart from anything.

I'm 6'3" and was recently beaten in a fencing match by a very small woman. Granted, I'm pretty crap, but reach isn't everything.

 

[Lollygag]

2 hours ago, oakbloodthesap said:

correct little finger, Ramsey, the Lannisters, Sansa stark 

as a direct quote? no 

  Reveal hidden contents

the winds of winter sample chapters make no mention of jeyne poole fake arya starks first meeting with stannis beratheon, before she is shipped off to the wall to see her brother 

look at it through her point of view after witnessing the lannisters, massacure the northmen, she hides only to have her door smashed in by the hound where she is taken to sansa in the maiden tower, " they're killing everyone" is the first thing she screams when they throw her in confinement with sansa. sansa for her part is a on off again emotion crying one moment to geting tired of jeyne constant sobbing about her father. ( in the spaine of two days ) throwing out some half hearted "im certain your father is well" and "i'll ask the queen to let you see him" jeyne in response " but the other girl just looked at her with red, swollen eyes and began to cry all the harder"  it should be noted that sansa remarks of the endless sobbing of jeyne poole " the only sounds were jeyne poole's endless whimpers and sobs" and knowing sansa she more then likely didn't hide her annoyance of jeyne sobbing, 

ok so i just reread the sansa chapter so i was wrong she doesn't read a book during the purge she and jeyne cry and fall asleep in each other arms on the bed " like sisters" however the last time jeyne see's sansa stark she is frendly and courtesies with ser boros " you look vary handsome and splendid this morning, ser boros" this is after they come for sansa to take her to the queen. unfortunitly this undoes most of the theory however this isn't the only time jeyne witness how cold sansa is. during the tournament  of the hand knight of the vale is killed in-front of her and well jeyne is panicing sansa is uneffected simple staring at the man that is dieing. ( actually when sir boros and the guardsmen come for sansa stark jeyne isn't mentioned so she may or may not have heard sansa friendly demeanor 

more over this can be looked at as the first time sansa starks cognitive dissonance appears ( when she and jeyne are in the tower ) add that with grrm statement that sansa is a unreliable narrative and that whole in each others arms like sisters might be a disillusion. 

ok to salvage this jeynes insights into the events of what transpired before ,during and after might paint sansa in a different light then what she her self believes what happened. leading others to question her loyalty to her father and name. 

game of thrones page 543-546  Sansa 

AGOT was published in 1996 and a vast majority of readers are casual readers, not our obsessed dork selves who hang on fan forums. There needed to be more buildup in the last 20+ years for this to happen where people weren't completely lost. It also doesn't register to prioritize Sansa getting annoyed when there’s a zombie apocalypse, widespread starvation and war, and LF, Ramsay and the Lannisters actually did the damage. And AGOT Sansa having uncool moments is hardly some big revelation. Everyone already knew that.

I feel it’s safe to say that for most people, if they were kidnapped at a party and raped and tortured for years, they would blame the person who actually raped and tortured them for years and not the person who invited them to the party.

But if one wants to play the slippery slope game, you can blame whatever scrambled Aerys up, Aerys for burning Starks, Rhaegar’s whatever with Lyanna, Robert’s Rebellion, Jon Arryn’s death, Robert asking Ned to be Hand, Ned agreeing to be Hand, Ned not going along with Joff being king, Ned trusting LF when LF told him not to, and sure, Sansa getting annoyed. I’m sure I’m forgetting some.

My personal preference for completely randomly placed blame in this situation over blaming those who actually did the damage would land on Ned agreeing to be Hand. But to each their own. X abused Y. Y killed Z because of effects of the abuse. Therefore X is responsible for the death of Z. Doesn't work.

You and some others might like this plot turn, but it'll blindside most people and Sansa getting annoyed against everything else going on just doesn't register at all.

[oakbloodthesap]

1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

AGOT was published in 1996 and a vast majority of readers are casual readers, not our obsessed dork selves who hang on fan forums. There needed to be more buildup in the last 20+ years for this to happen where people weren't completely lost. It also doesn't register to prioritize Sansa getting annoyed when there’s a zombie apocalypse, widespread starvation and war, and LF, Ramsay and the Lannisters actually did the damage. And AGOT Sansa having uncool moments is hardly some big revelation. Everyone already knew that.

I feel it’s safe to say that for most people, if they were kidnapped at a party and raped and tortured for years, they would blame the person who actually raped and tortured them for years and not the person who invited them to the party.

 

But if one wants to play the slippery slope game, you can blame whatever scrambled Aerys up, Aerys for burning Starks, Rhaegar’s whatever with Lyanna, Robert’s Rebellion, Jon Arryn’s death, Robert asking Ned to be Hand, Ned agreeing to be Hand, Ned not going along with Joff being king, Ned trusting LF when LF told him not to, and sure, Sansa getting annoyed. I’m sure I’m forgetting some.

 

My personal preference for completely randomly placed blame in this situation over blaming those who actually did the damage would land on Ned agreeing to be Hand. But to each their own. X abused Y. Y killed Z because of effects of the abuse. Therefore X is responsible for the death of Z. Doesn't work.

 

 

 

You and some others might like this plot turn, but it'll blindside most people and Sansa getting annoyed against everything else going on just doesn't register at all.

 true she may not directly blame her for her rape and torture at the hands of Ramsey, "training" at the hands of little finger, however like arya stark she might view her as 'part of' in the same light as the real arya starks list. ( but fake arya doesn't have 'needle' or she doesn't have the drive to seek personal vengeance the way the real ayra stark does, true however she now has two things. power as the last living stark and opportunity she would never have other wise ) it would fit in with g.r.r.m's narrative of half-truths. that being said 

Chekhov's gun? she did survive the purge. yes to be sold off to the boltons but why. to paint little finger as evil dany could have run into her in the slave city of meereen for the same effect. why north, why the boltons when the lannister's didn't have to give the boltons anything, why have her survive Ramsey she could have easily ended up in one of his 'hunts', to be burned alive at the wall? so the red witch wouldn't be able to tell she doesn't have any kings blood and even so the last living stark to be burned alive at the stack to what bring back some bastered boy of ned stark. ( which would destroy any rallying cry behind the stark banner not to mention no northerner would join them afterword. why have her survive the escape from winter-fell but to tell the tale ) ( also as the last living stark the north would rally behind her to retake the north from the boltons word of which would reach the vale and sansa )

 

[SeanF]

25 minutes ago, oakbloodthesap said:

 true she may not directly blame her for her rape and torture at the hands of Ramsey, "training" at the hands of little finger, however like arya stark she might view her as 'part of' in the same light as the real arya starks list. ( but fake arya doesn't have 'needle' or she doesn't have the drive to seek personal vengeance the way the real ayra stark does, true however she now has two things. power as the last living stark and opportunity she would never have other wise ) it would fit in with g.r.r.m's narrative of half-truths. that being said 

Chekhov's gun? she did survive the purge. yes to be sold off to the boltons but why. to paint little finger as evil dany could have run into her in the slave city of meereen for the same effect. why north, why the boltons when the lannister's didn't have to give the boltons anything, why have her survive Ramsey she could have easily ended up in one of his 'hunts', to be burned alive at the wall? so the red witch wouldn't be able to tell she doesn't have any kings blood and even so the last living stark to be burned alive at the stack to what bring back some bastered boy of ned stark. ( which would destroy any rallying cry behind the stark banner not to mention no northerner would join them afterword. why have her survive the escape from winter-fell but to tell the tale ) ( also as the last living stark the north would rally behind her to retake the north from the boltons word of which would reach the vale and sansa )

 

Jayne will only be concerned about survival at this point.  Her prospects of survival are not good.

[zandru]

Jeyne's recollections of Sansa is a great topic, as we can see by the detailed exchanges which follow! The question of who Jeyne will blame (or credit) for her current position is easy: anybody Littlefinger wants her to blame.

We're very familiar with how he likes to slant and spin information to favor his objectives. So Jeyne is given over to The Baelish Whorehouses, LLC - does Littlefinger pin it on Sansa? This would have made it easier to convince Jeyne to do a good impersonation of Arya Stark, the new Lady of Winterfell - and what a boost in status! Steward's get to Great Lady!

Maybe Littlefinger wants to blame Joffrey, or Cersei, as he has future plans to challenge them. Sure, why not? Or Stannis Baratheon - he's not around to object. Maybe Renly.

My point is (again), Jeyne will not have gone into an information vacuum. Littlefinger will have her ear. The best Jeyne can hope for is that she listened and remembered important things that her innumerable "Johns" talked about, and that the other "girls" discussed.

Re: Stannis. Stannis never met any of the Stark family, other than Eddard back in the war. Remember, he packed up and fled to Dragonstone right after Jon Arryn's death, and many fortnights before the Stark Party arrived.

[Nevets]

3 hours ago, oakbloodthesap said:

Chekhov's gun? she did survive the purge. yes to be sold off to the boltons but why. to paint little finger as evil dany could have run into her in the slave city of meereen for the same effect. why north, why the boltons when the lannister's didn't have to give the boltons anything, why have her survive Ramsey she could have easily ended up in one of his 'hunts', to be burned alive at the wall? so the red witch wouldn't be able to tell she doesn't have any kings blood and even so the last living stark to be burned alive at the stack to what bring back some bastered boy of ned stark. ( which would destroy any rallying cry behind the stark banner not to mention no northerner would join them afterword. why have her survive the escape from winter-fell but to tell the tale ) ( also as the last living stark the north would rally behind her to retake the north from the boltons word of which would reach the vale and sansa )

The Boltons needed Arya, or a facsimile, to bolster their rule in the North.  Otherwise, they are merely usurpers.   She is also a nice hostage.  The Lannisters needed the Boltons for the Red Wedding.  Without their forces, most of Robb's Army would have probably survived, causing the Lannisters massive problems.  She is also useful in getting Theon to actually take action.  Plus showing Ramsay as awful.

I thi she is alive for a number of story reasons.   If she misses Jon at the Wall (I think she will), that will likely affect Jon, as he thinks she is real.  She is probably going to go to Braavos, where the real Arya is located.  And she has information about the North, Jon,, and Littlefinger that Arya and Sansa would likely find quite interesting.

58 minutes ago, zandru said:

Jeyne's recollections of Sansa is a great topic, as we can see by the detailed exchanges which follow! The question of who Jeyne will blame (or credit) for her current position is easy: anybody Littlefinger wants her to blame.

We're very familiar with how he likes to slant and spin information to favor his objectives. So Jeyne is given over to The Baelish Whorehouses, LLC - does Littlefinger pin it on Sansa? This would have made it easier to convince Jeyne to do a good impersonation of Arya Stark, the new Lady of Winterfell - and what a boost in status! Steward's get to Great Lady!

I am quite willing to believe that he manipulated Jeyne into working at the brothel.   But I doubt that he would be able to get her upset at Sansa.  Littlefinger is not a reliable source, and Jeyne is likely to know that, or be told that by others.  One thing I am quite curious about is who whipped her, and why.  I don't think Martin gave her those injuries for the hell of it, so am quite curious as to what part they will play in the future.

I have always assumed that Jeyne would play a part in Sansa's upcoming breach with Littlefinger, and his eventual downfall.  Nothing I have seen here has disturbed that belief.  Sansa , I would imagine, would be quite displeased with the maltreatment of her friend and constant companion.

[Springwatch]

There's a theme building about the tears of women, beginning with 'tears are the women's weapon', then the deadly poison 'Tears of Lys', then the Weeping Woman death goddess. It's one of the shadows surrounding Arya and Sansa, and Jeyne, who weeps so long and so often, is a part of it. Her second identity as 'Ned's little girl' reinforces the link with Arya and Sansa.
 
Arya's journey has her own crying girl figure in Weasel (another unstoppable weeper), and leads to the role of acolyte in the temple of the Many Faced God, including a statue of the Weeping Woman as one of its aspects.
 
Sansa's journey begins with Jeyne, and leads to the epiphany scene in the Eyrie's snowy garden, where she finds herself kneeling by the statue of a weeping woman.
 
Arya's got her hit list, and Sansa is predicted to kill a giant and/or a king. So I don't expect the Weeping Woman imagery to leave them any time soon. Poor Jeyne is doomed to cry on, as long as she's in the story's focus and as long as the Stark girls have got some killing to do.

The most likely thing is that Jeyne doesn't find safety and happiness in Braavos, but just disappears into the backstory, as Weasel did. The crying girl could be anywhere, or everywhere.