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Ellard Stark

How aware is Sansa of Jeyne Poole (TWoW spoilers included)

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LittleFinger turned Jeyne into a whore and disguised herself to be Arya Stark to be married off to Ramsay. Seeing as how she didn't know Jon Snow is now LC, I bet she didn't know what happened to Jeyne or who Arya Stark is.... Lets say Miranda Royce "slips" again on whats going on with the events surrounding her bestfriend and Winterfell. Will this bit of info be enough to turn on Littlefinger? 1

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She has no idea Jeyne is in Winterfell, all she knows is that Littlefinger took her somewhere. I think Cersei told her that Littlefinger would take Jeyne to her father, so I imagine Sansa believes that Jeyne is living with her father somewhere. 

If Sansa found out what Littlefinger did to Jeyne I certainly think she would look at him in a new light, but the question is how would she find out? I doubt anyone at the Vale knows what he did to Jeyne, especially someone like Myranda Royce. At most all they know is that 'Arya Stark' has returned to Winterfell. Littlefinger wouldn't share his part in that plot with anyone at the Vale because most people there probably remember Eddard Stark fondly due to his fostering with Jon Arryn. 

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I wouldn't be surprised if Myranda lets slip that Arya Stark is married to Ramsay, just to gauge Sansa's reaction.  Sansa would probably next ask Littlefinger.  What he tells her, I don't know. 

I would anticipate that when Sansa finds out about Jeyne's fate (and I expect that she will), it will cause a serious breach between her and Littelfinger.  Could be trouble.  Jeyne is a skeleton waiting to fall out of Littlefinger's closet.

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Well look - Jeyne was taken away because Sansa complained that she cried too much. She doesn't seem to have given much thought to Jeyne ever since, other than to note in passing that she wasn't in Sansa's room any more. It was a couple of days before Sansa even remembered she had a sister Arya that she hadn't seen since that fateful breakfast.

Sansa would assume that Jeyne was taking on airs and enjoying the privileges of a Stark - taking HER place, as it were. A lowborne like Jeyne, marrying into the noble Bolton family. Disgusting!

Remember - Sansa has no idea that Ramsay is a monster. She doesn't know that her darling "father" Petyr put little Jeyne out as a whore in one of his businesses. Heck, she probably isn't aware he's one of the biggest whoremongers in King's Landing.

And Baelish, canny judge of Sansa's character as he is, would encourage her belief of Jeyne's opportunistic usurpation and would nurture Sansa's resentment of Jeyne. He'd remain her best and only friend.

... Let me backtrack here. We're supposing Myranda tells Sansa that Arya is married to Lord Bolton and is reigning in Winterfell. Sansa has assumed all along that Arya has made it back to Winterfell and is eating lemoncakes, sewing happily, singing and dancing, all the things she loves. Yes, Sansa really is clueless about her sister. Sansa also knows nothing about Jeyne Poole being substituted for Arya. So if "Arya" is married and is Lady of Winterfell, Sansa will just assume it's her little sister who is taking Sansa's rightful position. Same scenario, different person to resent, Baelish the only friend. And Jeyne Poole remains unremembered, except by Theon Greyjoy, formerly known as "Reek."

Edited by zandru

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She's already partially there and has been for quite some time. She wants to believe well of LF despite knowing otherwise because she has no one else. Things will change drastically when she finds other options. She already knows LF lies to her. And while AGOT Sansa was heartless towards Jeyne, ASOS Sansa finds she might be crying even for the likes of Joff after all he's done to her. 

 

ASOS Sansa V

Sansa felt sick. "He said he was my Florian."

The moment came back to her vividly. "You told me that life was not a song. That I would learn that one day, to my sorrow." She felt tears in her eyes, but whether she wept for Ser Dontos Hollard, for Joff, for Tyrion, or for herself, Sansa could not say. "Is it all lies, forever and ever, everyone and everything?"

"Almost everyone. Save you and I, of course." He smiled. "Come to the godswood tonight if you want to go home."

"The note . . . it was you?"

 

 

AFFC Sansa I

He saved Alayne, his daughter, a voice within her whispered. But she was Sansa too . . . and sometimes it seemed to her that the Lord Protector was two people as well. He was Petyr, her protector, warm and funny and gentle . . . but he was also Littlefinger, the lord she'd known at King's Landing, smiling slyly and stroking his beard as he whispered in Queen Cersei's ear. And Littlefinger was no friend of hers. When Joff had her beaten, the Imp defended her, not Littlefinger. When the mob sought to rape her, the Hound carried her to safety, not Littlefinger. When the Lannisters wed her to Tyrion against her will, Ser Garlan the Gallant gave her comfort, not Littlefinger. Littlefinger never lifted so much as his little finger for her.

Except to get me out. He did that for me. I thought it was Ser Dontos, my poor old drunken Florian, but it was Petyr all the while. Littlefinger was only a mask he had to wear. Only sometimes Sansa found it hard to tell where the man ended and the mask began. Littlefinger and Lord Petyr looked so very much alike. She would have fled them both, perhaps, but there was nowhere for her to go. Winterfell was burned and desolate, Bran and Rickon dead and cold. Robb had been betrayed and murdered at the Twins, along with their lady mother. Tyrion had been put to death for killing Joffrey, and if she ever returned to King's Landing the queen would have her head as well. The aunt she'd hoped would keep her safe had tried to murder her instead. Her uncle Edmure was a captive of the Freys, while her great-uncle the Blackfish was under siege at Riverrun. I have no place but here, Sansa thought miserably, and no true friend but Petyr.

 

AFFC Sansa I

"And this lie may spare us. Else you and I must leave the Eyrie by the same door Lysa used." Petyr picked up his quill again. "We shall serve him lies and Arbor gold, and he'll drink them down and ask for more, I promise you."

He is serving me lies as well, Sansa realized. They were comforting lies, though, and she thought them kindly meant. A lie is not so bad if it is kindly meant. If only she believed them . . .

 

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That is a good question. It hasn't come up and it should though. It should be public knowledge more or less. The easiest way for LF to avoid any agitation on Sansa's part would be to tell her that Ramsay married an impostor, but not who it is. 

Otherwise Sansa would want to make contact. 

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3 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

That is a good question. It hasn't come up and it should though. It should be public knowledge more or less. The easiest way for LF to avoid any agitation on Sansa's part would be to tell her that Ramsay married an impostor, but not who it is. 

Otherwise Sansa would want to make contact. 

Yes. And as far as Arya's concerned, Sansa thinks she's dead, though I can't remember when or why she was thinking this.

5 hours ago, zandru said:

Well look - Jeyne was taken away because Sansa complained that she cried too much

No, she doesn't complain to Cersei (Cersei doesn't care how Sansa feels anyway) - she acts like a friend here, speaking up for Jeyne, and asking after her father, as promised. Cersei wants Sansa ignorant, isolated and friendless, that's all.

I don't think Sansa would be jealous of anyone married to Bolton's Bastard, plus her enthusiasm for an arranged marriage is at a low ebb.

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You know, I’m surprised few in-universe noticed the discrepancies between Arya and Jeyne. Arya has grey eyes and hasn’t menstruated yet, while Jeyne has brown eyes and has menstruated. If a Reek can spot a Jeyne Poole at ten paces, so can other people. Even Stannis Baratheon, the only living expert on the appearances of the Great Houses, failed to notice it.

Edited by Angel Eyes

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3 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

You know, I’m surprised few in-universe noticed the discrepancies between Arya and Jeyne. Arya has grey eyes and hasn’t menstruated yet, while Jeyne has brown eyes and has menstruated. If a Reek can spot a Jeyne Poole at ten paces, so can other people. Even Stannis Baratheon, the only living expert on the appearances of the Great Houses, failed to notice it.

Stannis Baratheon has never seen Arya. (the real one, that is) Of course he wouldn't notice.

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9 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

You know, I’m surprised few in-universe noticed the discrepancies between Arya and Jeyne. Arya has grey eyes and hasn’t menstruated yet, while Jeyne has brown eyes and has menstruated. If a Reek can spot a Jeyne Poole at ten paces, so can other people. Even Stannis Baratheon, the only living expert on the appearances of the Great Houses, failed to notice it.

I expect that the description that most people have of Arya is "same coloring as Jon; younger than Sansa, who is younger than Robb."

Nobody in the North has seen Arya for about 2 years, and those who had had probably only seen her briefly.  Everyone from Winterfell is either dead or locked up at the Dreadfort.  And Jeyne is familiar enough with Winterfell to fol an outsider.  I don't find it at all surprising that an impostor is able to succeed under those circumstances.  

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14 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

That is a good question. It hasn't come up and it should though. It should be public knowledge more or less. The easiest way for LF to avoid any agitation on Sansa's part would be to tell her that Ramsay married an impostor, but not who it is. 

Otherwise Sansa would want to make contact. 

Ramsay's marriage to Arya is fairly recent, so it isn't surprising that wide knowledge of it hasn't reached the Vale.  Also, Littlefinger controls most of  the information Sansa receives, especially regarding events outside of the Vale, so even if news has reached the Bloody Gate, Sansa wouldn't necessarily know of it.

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1 minute ago, Nevets said:

Ramsay's marriage to Arya is fairly recent, so it isn't surprising that wide knowledge of it hasn't reached the Vale.  Also, Littlefinger controls most of  the information Sansa receives, especially regarding events outside of the Vale, so even if news has reached the Bloody Gate, Sansa wouldn't necessarily know of it.

Depending on the relative timing of the chapters having not reached the Vale is plausible up to a point. Otherwise control of information of this kind, unless he has her locked up or has somehow isolated the whole castle from outside news is impossible. This is the marriage of the Warden of the North's heir to the former Warden's daughter. Eventually this would become public knowledge all across Westeros and it is bigger news than Jon's appointment as Lord Commander.

Sansa heard about Jon as she was coming down from the Eyrie. News of Ramsay's wedding should not be far behind. Keep in mind that the announcement predated the wedding. The interval should be equivalent from when Jon is appointed Lord Commander to when he receives news of the fall of Deep wood Motte and the announcement of the wedding. 

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I'm sure many in the north do know, and many more have reason to suspect that the bride is an imposter. Some may not be sure of exactly how old Arya would be, though the northern Lords probably would.

But all those who don't know Ramsay or his reputation - including Sansa when she finds out - have the very public example of Margaery and Tommen , where the marriage has been performed and sanctified, but not expected to be consummated until the younger partner is ready.

ETA: Sansa doesn't know Ramsay, but undoubtedly has heard the same creepy stories of the Boltons and the Dreadfort that are referred to in the conversation between Robb and Bran when Robb calls the banners . With this in mind, I'm not sure Sansa would feel jealous...

Edited by bemused

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6 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

Depending on the relative timing of the chapters having not reached the Vale is plausible up to a point. Otherwise control of information of this kind, unless he has her locked up or has somehow isolated the whole castle from outside news is impossible. This is the marriage of the Warden of the North's heir to the former Warden's daughter. Eventually this would become public knowledge all across Westeros and it is bigger news than Jon's appointment as Lord Commander.

Sansa heard about Jon as she was coming down from the Eyrie. News of Ramsay's wedding should not be far behind. Keep in mind that the announcement predated the wedding. The interval should be equivalent from when Jon is appointed Lord Commander to when he receives news of the fall of Deep wood Motte and the announcement of the wedding. 

The news of Jon's election as LC was in Sansa's final chapter of Feast.  And the announcement of the wedding was at least a couple months after that (enough time for Stannis to traval through the mountains and attack Deepwood Motte; Asha got her message right when Stannis attacked).  And even the preview chapter doesn't take place that long afterwards.  So I'm not surprised she doesn't know.

14 minutes ago, bemused said:

I'm sure many in the north do know, and many more have reason to suspect that the bride is an imposter. Some may not be sure of exactly how old Arya would be, though the northern Lords probably would.

But all those who don't know Ramsay or his reputation - including Sansa when she finds out - have the very public example of Margaery and Tommen , where the marriage has been performed and sanctified, but not expected to be consummated until the younger partner is ready.

I'm not so sure even the Northern lords know how old she is.  Even in the real world, birth dates in the Middle Ages are often quite approximate, especially for girls.  I would expect they know to within a couple of years, but Jeyne is close enough in age to fake that.  The biggest threat is that someone will recognize her as being Jeyne Poole.  I think on this issue that Martin has left enough leeway to go either direction.

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6 hours ago, shameeka said:

Stannis Baratheon has never seen Arya. (the real one, that is) Of course he wouldn't notice.

 

31 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I expect that the description that most people have of Arya is "same coloring as Jon; younger than Sansa, who is younger than Robb."

Nobody in the North has seen Arya for about 2 years, and those who had had probably only seen her briefly.  Everyone from Winterfell is either dead or locked up at the Dreadfort.  And Jeyne is familiar enough with Winterfell to fol an outsider.  I don't find it at all surprising that an impostor is able to succeed under those circumstances.  

 

12 minutes ago, bemused said:

I'm sure many in the north do know, and many more have reason to suspect that the bride is an imposter. Some may not be sure of exactly how old Arya would be, though the northern Lords probably would.

But all those who don't know Ramsay or his reputation - including Sansa when she finds out - have the very public example of Margaery and Tommen , where the marriage has been performed and sanctified, but not expected to be consummated until the younger partner is ready.

Wyman Manderley might know. Arya has visited White Harbor on two occasions. Something we should keep in mind is that many of these guys are not the Lords that were in charge before the war. They are not the ones that would visit Winterfell or entertain whileNed visited their castles, so any exposure they would have to Arya should be limited. Still there should be some who suspect. I don't believe Cerwyn's daughter is at Winterfell. Considering the proximity she should have seen Arya on numerous occasions. 

The potential recognition is presumably why Roose is going along with keeping Jeyne out of sight. Otherwise the whole affair is proving rather counter-productive. 

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1 hour ago, Nevets said:

The news of Jon's election as LC was in Sansa's final chapter of Feast.  And the announcement of the wedding was at least a couple months after that (enough time for Stannis to traval through the mountains and attack Deepwood Motte; Asha got her message right when Stannis attacked).  And even the preview chapter doesn't take place that long afterwards.  So I'm not surprised she doesn't know.

I'm not so sure even the Northern lords know how old she is.  Even in the real world, birth dates in the Middle Ages are often quite approximate, especially for girls.  I would expect they know to within a couple of years, but Jeyne is close enough in age to fake that.  The biggest threat is that someone will recognize her as being Jeyne Poole.  I think on this issue that Martin has left enough leeway to go either direction.

I,m not surprised Sansa doesn't know, either.

 I think Wyman Manderly would know ... (and I see @The Sleeper has just mentioned this as I type) and many of the others would have had reasons to visit WF themselves as Arya was growing up. In any case, believing as I do in a version of the GNC, I think that if Wyman knows, he will have told the other Lords.

59 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

Wyman Manderley might know. Arya has visited White Harbor on two occasions. Something we should keep in mind is that many of these guys are not the Lords that were in charge before the war. They are not the ones that would visit Winterfell or entertain whileNed visited their castles, so any exposure they would have to Arya should be limited. Still there should be some who suspect. I don't believe Cerwyn's daughter is at Winterfell. Considering the proximity she should have seen Arya on numerous occasions. 

The potential recognition is presumably why Roose is going along with keeping Jeyne out of sight. Otherwise the whole affair is proving rather counter-productive.

Manderly has the two visits to inform him, and he has a beloved granddaughter ("my Wylla") whose  comparative age to Arya he would likely have noted at the time.

While some of the Lords are not the same, the Ryswells, Barbrey Dustin, and Jonelle Cerwyn are still there , and while Jonelle is not in WF, it seems she was with Lady Dustin in Barrowton at the time Roose arrived. Theon/Reek notices her banner flying from Barrow Hall and she signed Jon's "wedding invitation/summons" letter and Asha's letter ..(possibly Wyman's, too?)

She lends Roose her maester to take charge of Luwin's ravens which might be how she manages to avoid going to WF - someone has to mind the homefires. (I think that could be a convenient excuse to cover other activities, but that's another topic.)                

Edited by bemused

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23 hours ago, Ellard Stark said:

Will this bit of info be enough to turn on Littlefinger?

I don't think so.  Sansa won't turn on Littlefinger until she finds another guy to latch onto.

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5 hours ago, Nevets said:

I expect that the description that most people have of Arya is "same coloring as Jon; younger than Sansa, who is younger than Robb."

Nobody in the North has seen Arya for about 2 years, and those who had had probably only seen her briefly.  Everyone from Winterfell is either dead or locked up at the Dreadfort.  And Jeyne is familiar enough with Winterfell to fol an outsider.  I don't find it at all surprising that an impostor is able to succeed under those circumstances.  

But still, there’s a difference between a girl who’s flowered and a girl who hasn’t. Arya hasn’t flowered yet, and Sansa hadn’t flowered yet at 11 (Arya is the same age as Sansa was in AGOT).

And what’s the worst that could happen with Jeyne Poole being found?

Edited by Angel Eyes

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4 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

But still, there’s a difference between a girl who’s flowered and a girl who hasn’t. Arya hasn’t flowered yet, and Sansa hadn’t flowered yet at 11 (Arya is the same age as Sansa was in AGOT).

And what’s the worst that could happen with Jeyne Poole being found?

The difference is not visible to the naked eye. Particularly to people who have met said person intermittently for brief periods over years. Jeyne being two years older than Arya is an inconsistency but not a definitive one. 

The second part is a good question. At the very least Bolton reputation will take a blow. Whether one considers them as being duped or being the deceivers, is bad. The various houses would dust up their genealogical trees to see when was their latest marriage to a Stark and considering how they might press a claim. The worst is outright rebellion. 

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15 hours ago, The First Bloodrider said:

I don't think so.  Sansa won't turn on Littlefinger until she finds another guy to latch onto.

 

I’m not agreeing with your characterization of the situation, but your point that Sansa can’t really jump ship LF until she finds another guardian or protector is correct. She realizes this when she miserably acknowledges that Petyr (not LF) is her only friend.

Girls in Westeros aren’t free or safe to act on their own. That’s why Yoren was so harsh with Arya to pretend she was a boy and why pre-teen Arya had to be moved to her Braavos arc. She’s approaching the point where she can’t pass for a boy any longer thus she needs other means to be safe. Sansa’s options are very limited until she finds trustworthy help.

While some of the Vale lords may want to help Sansa, it’s highly doubtful that they’ll take any real risk to their ancestral homes and family’s security for her. In the end, they’re Valemen, not Northerners, and know where their bread is buttered. Sansa is in a pickle where LF and who to trust is concerned.

 

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