Jump to content
Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn

Tywin didn't have affair for 27 years

Recommended Posts

I doubt it, I think he slept with Shae because he is a hypocrite. Didn't Varys tell Tyrion that the secret passageway into Chataya's brothel was built for another King's Hand whose honor would not allow him to walk through the front door. What if that Hand of the King was Tywin. 

Edited by EloImFizzy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn said:

Is it possible that Shae looked like Joanna Lannister? 

For literary reasons -- paralleling the incest between Jaime and Cersei -- I have wondered whether Shae was a natural daughter of Tywin.

I think Shae is going to have a secret past and that her apparent betrayal of Tyrion in his trial will prove to have been part of a deal to free or otherwise protect Tyrion. Maybe she was in Tywin's bed as part of that same deal. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Seams said:

For literary reasons -- paralleling the incest between Jaime and Cersei -- I have wondered whether Shae was a natural daughter of Tywin.

That sounds like a soap opera reason rather than a literary one. 

One of the few commoners we actually get to see as a regular character in the series is actually a secret bastard who happened to become a whore, was randomly in the area when the Lannister army was, happened to be spotted by Bronn (when she was with another customer) and proceeds to become Tyrion's full time paramour and eventually sleeps with her father is just too many coincidences to make good literature.

Plus the Lannisters are tall, blonde and have green eyes, Shae is short, with both dark hair and eyes.

 

1 hour ago, Seams said:

I think Shae is going to have a secret past and that her apparent betrayal of Tyrion in his trial will prove to have been part of a deal to free or otherwise protect Tyrion. Maybe she was in Tywin's bed as part of that same deal. 

From who? Both Tywin and Shae are dead, as is Kevan and Pycelle. Varys has had ample of time to tell Tyrion but even if he did know there is no upside in revealing the truth to Tyrion after he has already murdered her.

2 hours ago, EloImFizzy said:

I doubt it, I think he slept with Shae because he is a hypocrite. 

Tywin had no problem with Tyrion or his men sleeping with whores, it was Tyrion falling in love with them and making himself vulnerable which he had a problem with. Tyrion threatened the lives of both Tywin's grandson's over the safety of his whore that angered Tywin into making his threat.

Look, if a friend of mine is an alcoholic who has no self control after one drink and becomes both a risk to himself and to others it is not hypocrisy from me to tell them to stop even if I  drink.  It is only hypocrisy on my part if I am similarly out of control over alcohol and continue drinking while telling my friend he can't. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, EloImFizzy said:

What if that Hand of the King was Tywin

He most likely was. IIRC, there was a thread on this once, listing all Hands in the last two decades or so, and Tywin came out as the likeliest candidate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

He most likely was. IIRC, there was a thread on this once, listing all Hands in the last two decades or so, and Tywin came out as the likeliest candidate.

We know from the Rogue Prince that the road that secret passageway leads to was the red light district even then. It could be any Hand in the last two centuries

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, EloImFizzy said:

I doubt it, I think he slept with Shae because he is a hypocrite. Didn't Varys tell Tyrion that the secret passageway into Chataya's brothel was built for another King's Hand whose honor would not allow him to walk through the front door. What if that Hand of the King was Tywin. 

Not really. The problem was never that Tyrion bought sex, he's been doing that and living a life without responsibilities for years and living off Tywin's money when the book starts. The problem is that Tyrion has no understanding what he's doing in that he think that bought sexual services and paying Shae for the "girlfriend experience" is real affection towards him, and not a service bought for money.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

We know from the Rogue Prince that the road that secret passageway leads to was the red light district even then. It could be any Hand in the last two centuries

Ah. Haven't read that one. Pity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Ygrain said:

He most likely was. IIRC, there was a thread on this once, listing all Hands in the last two decades or so, and Tywin came out as the likeliest candidate.

Must have been a reasonably short list :)

 

13 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

We know from the Rogue Prince that the road that secret passageway leads to was the red light district even then. It could be any Hand in the last two centuries

Could you quote the passage? I can't recall any such passage being mentioned in TRP.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn said:

Is it possible that Shae looked like Joanna Lannister?

Highly unlikely. Shae is described as short, with dark hair and eyes. We never have Joanna appear on page, except for Jaime's dream of the vigil over his father's corpse... in that, Jaime first mistakes her for Cersei, and then she's described as...

Quote

Her eyes were green, her hair spun gold. He could not tell how old she was. Fifteen, he thought, or fifty.

So, very much the Lannister look... blonde, green eyes, graceful, slender figure. Assuming that this is his mother that Jaime's seeing here. 

Also, no one ever comments on any similarity in appearance between the two... Cersei never thinks that Tyrion's whore looks like their mother, Jaime doesn't see her at the trial and think "who is this woman that looks like my mother", no one comments that Sansa's maid bears a striking resemblance to Joanna. There's no clue, or hint or anything to suggest they look alike. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only prostitute who comes close to resembling a Lannister is Marei with her green eyes, but she has silver hair. 

Whether Tywin used Chataya's brothel while he was Aerys's Hand, or not, the man was a hypocrite. All those vices he reproached Tyrion, he had them, and while I know a lot of people believe Tyrion is Aerys's bastard son, I think Tyrion's physical appearance is a reflection of who Tywin truly was, an ugly, stunted man on the inside. All his sins are being revisited on his children.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

I think Tyrion's physical appearance is a reflection of who Tywin truly was, an ugly, stunted man on the inside. All his sins are being revisited on his children.

A nice observation. Tywin was indeed a monster on the inside.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No reason to believe he hadn't had lovers after Joanna. The point of Shae in his bed is that he too desires affection from at least one source.

Also we have tears are a woman's weapon from Cersei, a lesson implied she learnt from Joanna, and then Shae in Tywin's bed after she turns on the water works at the trial. Indicates a weakness, how Tywin could be manipulated, how Joanna ruled him. The same as how Shae could manipulate Tyrion.

That is the similarity you are looking for, not how they look, but their ability to play the damsel in distress in need of a hero/protector, and so climb upwards.

Quote

"Tears," she said scornfully to Sansa as the woman was led from the hall. "The woman's weapon, my lady mother used to call them.

And

Quote

Prince Oberyn looked curious. "What sorts of things?"

"Unspeakable things." As the tears rolled slowly down that pretty face, no doubt every man in the hall wanted to take Shae in his arms and comfort her.

 

Edited by chrisdaw

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Could you quote the passage? I can't recall any such passage being mentioned in TRP.

The Street of Silk is mentioned a few times in the Rogue Prince, the red light district of Kings Landing has been around for at least two centuries.

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=Street+of+Silk&scope[]=trp&scope[]=tpatq

Tyrion gave him a long look. "Chataya's on the Street of Silk has several girls who might suit your needs. Dancy has hair the color of honey. Marie's is pale white-gold. I would advise you to keep one or the other by your side at all times, my lord."

 

Chataya's was more than likely a whore house back then albeit under a different name. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

The Street of Silk is mentioned a few times in the Rogue Prince, the red light district of Kings Landing has been around for at least two centuries.

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=Street+of+Silk&scope[]=trp&scope[]=tpatq

Tyrion gave him a long look. "Chataya's on the Street of Silk has several girls who might suit your needs. Dancy has hair the color of honey. Marie's is pale white-gold. I would advise you to keep one or the other by your side at all times, my lord."

Chataya's was more than likely a whore house back then albeit under a different name. 

That doesn't mean the secret passage already existed back then. So Tywin being the Hand too proud to visit a brothel is still at play.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

The Street of Silk is mentioned a few times in the Rogue Prince, the red light district of Kings Landing has been around for at least two centuries.

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=Street+of+Silk&scope[]=trp&scope[]=tpatq

Tyrion gave him a long look. "Chataya's on the Street of Silk has several girls who might suit your needs. Dancy has hair the color of honey. Marie's is pale white-gold. I would advise you to keep one or the other by your side at all times, my lord."

 

Chataya's was more than likely a whore house back then albeit under a different name. 

 

 

I thought you meant the secret passage was being referred to in TRP, but I see that I misread your earlier post :) Sorry!

The existence of the Street of Silk during that time period does not automatically mean that the secret tunnel also already existed. And that's the important factor here.

I've seen many times that people argue that the tunnel must have been built in more recent decades because Varys knows not only about the tunnel, but also about why and who it was built for. I'm personally not sure whether or not Varys's knowledge should necessarily exclude Hands who served before he came to KL, but it would make sense if at least a person who aided in the construction of the tunnel, or who served the Hand for who the tunnel was build, still lived at KL while Varys was there, which would mean the Hand lived within the past century. 

Edited by Rhaenys_Targaryen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

That doesn't mean the secret passage already existed back then. So Tywin being the Hand too proud to visit a brothel is still at play.

of course, I never disputed he was not, just that there are more possibilities than Tywin or Jon. 

"How is it a brothel happens to have a secret entrance?"

 "The tunnel was dug for another King's Hand, whose honor would not allow him to enter such a house openly. Chataya has closely guarded the knowledge of its existence."

"And yet you knew of it."

 "Little birds fly through many a dark tunnel. 

There is no reason for Varys to be so coy with the identity if it was made recently given there are only two possibilities and Tyrion's non- reaction to it suggests that he does not assume it was his father. If there was a 50% chance that Tywin built it Tyrion would spend time actually thinking about it. 

So while I'm not ruling it out being Tywin the fact that Tyrion does not come to the same conclusion as some in the fandom suggests that Vary's is not specifying a time period.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

There is no reason for Varys to be so coy with the identity if it was made recently given there are only two possibilities and Tyrion's non- reaction to it suggests that he does not assume it was his father. If there was a 50% chance that Tywin built it Tyrion would spend time actually thinking about it. 

You're jumping to conclusions here. Look at this passage from ADWD:

Varys had escorted him through the tunnels, but they never spoke until they emerged beside the Blackwater, where Tyrion had won a famous victory and lost a nose. That was when the dwarf turned to the eunuch and said, “I’ve killed my father,” in the same tone a man might use to say, “I’ve stubbed my toe.”
The master of whisperers had been dressed as a begging brother, in a moth-eaten robe of brown roughspun with a cowl that shadowed his smooth fat cheeks and bald round head. “You should not have climbed that ladder,” he said reproachfully.
“Wherever whores go.” Tyrion had warned his father not to say that word. If I had not loosed, he would have seen my threats were empty. He would have taken the crossbow from my hands, as once he took Tysha from my arms. He was rising when I killed him.
“I killed Shae too,” he confessed to Varys.
“You knew what she was.”
“I did. But I never knew what he was.”
Varys tittered. “And now you do.”
 

Tyrion doesn't ponder that the Hand in question might be Tywin because he doesn't think that Tywin, with his contempt for whores, would use their services.

As for Varys only hinting at the Hand, of course he does have a reason. He uses everyone and everything to promote his own goals, there is no need for him to offer information for free. He might be even probing Tyrion, to find out how well he actually knows his father, to assess and store this information for future use. I would say that the exchange I've quoted points to Varys knowing what Tywin was. -It has even been proposed that Varys wanted Tyrion to off Tywin, as this eye-opener with Shae was bound to push Tyrion over the edge. Not sure if I buy into it but with Tywin as Hand/Regent, fAegon's invasion wouldn't stand a chance, so Tywin had to be removed in some way. Which is why I believe that there might be some substance to the theory that Tywin had been poisoned by widow's blood, and while originally, Oberyn was to be blamed to incite the Dornish, his death allowed for shifting the blame to Tyrion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×