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Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn

Tywin didn't have affair for 27 years

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2 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

You're jumping to conclusions here. Look at this passage from ADWD:

How am I jumping to conclusions, I have not claimed it is or is not any of the Hands. I am not the one claiming it is anyone.

 

2 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

=
“You knew what she was.”
“I did. But I never knew what he was.”
Varys tittered. “And now you do.”

yes, He had just found out that Tysha was not a whore. 

Varys tells Tyrion about a former Hand making the tunnel in ACOK, if Tyrion thought Varys was talking about it being made in Vary's tenure then that only leaves two choices. It is out of character for the intelligent Tyrion to not have came to the same conclusion about Tywin as some in the fandom if it was that obvious that the builder of the tunnel stood a 50% chance of being Tywin. 

 

2 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

 


 

Tyrion doesn't ponder that the Hand in question might be Tywin because he doesn't think that Tywin, with his contempt for whores, would use their services.

You are confusing Tyrion  for Cersei.  Tyrion makes no mention in the books of his father not liking sex. 

2 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

As for Varys only hinting at the Hand, of course he does have a reason. He uses everyone and everything to promote his own goals, there is no need for him to offer information for free.

If he is saying it was built recently then he has given the information for free as it can only be one of two men. 

 

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Forget the tunnel that was dug from the Tower of the Hand to Chataya's brothel. The bottom line is that Tywin was not above frequenting whores and having affairs. The very things he reproached his own father and shamed his son for, the thing he saw as a weakness, well he was also doing. 

It says much and more about his character. 

Wouldn't be shocking if he had a bastard or two running around. Donnel Hill certainly comes to mind. Even the description of his lips is something of a callback to Joffrey's own lips. 

Edited by Widow's Watch

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1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

How am I jumping to conclusions, I have not claimed it is or is not any of the Hands. I am not the one claiming it is anyone.

 

yes, He had just found out that Tysha was not a whore. 

Varys tells Tyrion about a former Hand making the tunnel in ACOK, if Tyrion thought Varys was talking about it being made in Vary's tenure then that only leaves two choices. It is out of character for the intelligent Tyrion to not have came to the same conclusion about Tywin as some in the fandom if it was that obvious that the builder of the tunnel stood a 50% chance of being Tywin. 

 

You are confusing Tyrion  for Cersei.  Tyrion makes no mention in the books of his father not liking sex. 

If he is saying it was built recently then he has given the information for free as it can only be one of two men. 

 

There are three possibilities:  Tywin, Jon Arryn, or Ned Stark.  And there is a case to be made for it being Ned. 

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25 minutes ago, The Twinslayer said:

And there is a case to be made for it being Ned. 

Care to provide that case? Remember, Ned was only in KL for a few months, and we had his POV throughout... never does he think about the tunnel to the brothel that he's supposedly having built. 

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34 minutes ago, The Twinslayer said:

There are three possibilities:  Tywin, Jon Arryn, or Ned Stark.  And there is a case to be made for it being Ned. 

Ned's time in King's Landing was brief, between his arrival and arrest we are talking two months, he's not really a candidate for having built a secret tunnel all the way to the street of silk.

 

41 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Forget the tunnel that was dug from the Tower of the Hand to Chataya's brothel. The bottom line is that Tywin was not above frequenting whores and having affairs. The very things he reproached his own father and shamed his son for, the thing he saw as a weakness, well he was also doing. 

Except sleeping with whores was never the problem, it seems a huge misconception about the issues Tywin had.

  • Tytos didn't just sleep with his paramour but allowed her to rule in his stead, an era were the Westerlands was in chaos and Tytos was too preoccupied with his lover to care. 
  • Tyrion took a fancy to the first woman who showed him any attention and ended up marrying a homeless orphan after a week of knowing Shae
  • Tyrion threatened the lives of his own nephews ( considering they were princes he could have been executed for that alone) over the safety of a whore.

Neither Tywin's father or sons could control their feelings and would act against their own best interests and the best interests of their own family because they allowed their cocks to dictate their actions.

If Tyrion had only (discreetly) slept with whores there would be no issue, it is the fact that he would become an idiot for them his father can't tolerate. 

"Your sister told me of your threats against my grandsons." Lord Tywin's voice was colder than ice. "Did she lie?"
Tyrion would not deny it. "I made threats, yes. To keep Alayaya safe. So the Kettleblacks would not misuse her."
"To save a whore's virtue, you threatened your own House, your own kin? Is that the way of it?"
 
That is not hypocrisy, Tywin would never put a paramour/whore above house Lannister. I imagine when he sleeps with whores there is no love involved.

 

 

 

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44 minutes ago, The Twinslayer said:

There are three possibilities:  Tywin, Jon Arryn, or Ned Stark.  And there is a case to be made for it being Ned. 

There's nothing to indicate that Ned dug a tunnel to the brothel. Plus the guy was more concerned with the things going on in the city and what Jon Arryn died for than sex.

Jon Arryn went to Chataya's in broad daylight with Stannis to see Barra and her mother. He was seen entering the building, I think, and he even took guards with him, if I'm not mistaken. If he knew there was a tunnel that he could use secretly while he was conducting his investigation on Robert's bastards/Cersei's children, I think he would have made a point of using it.

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7 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

Care to provide that case? Remember, Ned was only in KL for a few months, and we had his POV throughout... never does he think about the tunnel to the brothel that he's supposedly having built. 

Would Ned want female companionship while living in King's Landing?  Yes.  Ned is a relatively young man (early thirties) who is accustomed to frequent sex.  ("So when they finished, Ned rolled off and climbed from her bed, as he had a thousand times before.")  And he is familiar with the "lusts" that lead men to father bastards ("If the gods frowned so on bastards, why did they fill men with such lusts?")  He may even have fathered a bastard already (Jon Snow).   Then he goes to King's Landing to serve as Hand not knowing when he might see his wife again. 

Would Ned's honor prevent him from going into a brothel through the front door?  It is culturally acceptable for him to take a mistress or to visit brothels in these circumstances but he has cultivated an image of being too honorable to do such a thing ("She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour").  So yes, he would not want to be seen doing this.  

Would he have selected Chataya's?  When first he arrives in King's Landing, he finds out that one of the major brothel owners in King's Landing is Littlefinger, whom he believes to be a loyal friend to Ned's wife.  So it would be logical for him to go to a brothel owned by someone other than Littlefinger.

In contrast to Ned, John Arryn lived in King's Landing with his wife, with whom he tried repeatedly to have children, and he was an older man who may have been less motivated.  Why would he want to go to brothels?

As for Tywin, he had not cultivated the kind of reputation for honor that Ned had.  And he was a widower, so he had no wife to dishonor and no vows to prevent him from going to a brothel, so who would care if he walked into a brothel through the front?

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2 minutes ago, The Twinslayer said:

...

None of what you say provides a case for it being Ned. Aside from being full of logical fallacies ("Why would Jon Arryn visit a brothel if his wife is there?" as an argument is so dumb it almost pains me. "Tywin... had not cultivated the kind of reputation for honor that Ned had" but had shown the world his disdain for whores), it's also peppered with falsehoods (Ned is happy to walk through the front door of LF's brothel when looking for Robert's bastards, for example, or when he goes to see Cat). But ultimately it provides no evidence for it being Ned... you can use most of your arguments to "make a case" for it being Tywin as well. 

We have Ned's POV (as well as Arya and Sansa's) during the whole time Ned is in KL. Never once is the tunnel or the construction work on the tunnel mentioned by any of these characters in their POVs. Construction would be noisy, something Arya and Sansa would pick up on and think about... Ned never thinks "Damn, I wish my tunnel was finished so I can get my rocks off"... We don't have Ned speaking to masons or builders, or hiring some unspecified craftsmen... There's no gossip or rumours around KL or the Red Keep about what the new Hand is doing with his renovations of the Tower of the Hand. Never once does Ned think about visiting a brothel for any reason other than finding Robert's bastard. We don't have Ned disappearing suspiciously, or being absent all through the night. 

Also, again, Ned was in KL for a few months at best, and had some pretty weighty matters to deal with while he was there. Having a tunnel built to a whorehouse was not one of his priorities, and we know this, because he never once thinks about it... but he does think about other things, like Jon Arryn's death, Robert's bastards, assassinating Dany etc.. 

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Varys mentiones the word "honour", which was more associated with Jon Arryn rather than Tywin.

Also, after Varys's arrival to King's Landing, there are like 5 hands of the king other than Tywin, Jon and Ned. It's just that there was too little time for one of them to build a damn tunnel to Chataya's. 

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14 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Except sleeping with whores was never the problem, it seems a huge misconception about the issues Tywin had.

  • Tytos didn't just sleep with his paramour but allowed her to rule in his stead, an era were the Westerlands was in chaos and Tytos was too preoccupied with his lover to care. 
  • Tyrion took a fancy to the first woman who showed him any attention and ended up marrying a homeless orphan after a week of knowing Shae
  • Tyrion threatened the lives of his own nephews ( considering they were princes he could have been executed for that alone) over the safety of a whore.

Neither Tywin's father or sons could control their feelings and would act against their own best interests and the best interests of their own family because they allowed their cocks to dictate their actions.

If Tyrion had only (discreetly) slept with whores there would be no issue, it is the fact that he would become an idiot for them his father can't tolerate. 

"Your sister told me of your threats against my grandsons." Lord Tywin's voice was colder than ice. "Did she lie?"
Tyrion would not deny it. "I made threats, yes. To keep Alayaya safe. So the Kettleblacks would not misuse her."
"To save a whore's virtue, you threatened your own House, your own kin? Is that the way of it?"
 
That is not hypocrisy, Tywin would never put a paramour/whore above house Lannister. I imagine when he sleeps with whores there is no love involved.

 

You speak truth. Tyrion's infatuation's with whores genuinely is unhealthy for everyone.

He literally murdered a man and nearly got a 17 year old girl killed over Shae(who made abundantly clear her relationship with Tyrion was a buisness),  who he also puts at risk by even having her in KL in the first place-he's a terribly selfish creature all things considered.

 

 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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7 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

You speak truth. Tyrion's infatuation's with whores genuinely is unhealthy for everyone.

He literally murdered a man and nearly got a 17 year old girl killed over Shae(who made abundantly clear her relationship with Tyrion was a buisness),  who he also puts at risk by even having her in KL in the first place-he's a terribly selfish creature all things considered.

 

 

The bitter irony is that it may well have been Tywin who made Tyrion infatuated with whores by doing what he did to Tysha and by teaching the teenage Tyrion what he had considered true love (his first experience of love) was only business for money. Tywin was reaping what he had sown when he couldn't keep Tyrion in line.

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Apparently, fifteen years of whore-mongering were not an issue. It just came up. Also Tyrion was infatuated with a whore, singular, and while it was certainly not healthy, it is not that he hadn't been discreet about it. Cersei even took the wrong whore hostage. It doesn't seem that Shae was in anyone's radar until the trial. 

Tywin:

  1. Is preoccupied with appearances before and above anything else
  2. Is projecting his own issues
  3. Is being a hypocrite
  4. Can't really miss a chance to be an asshole. 

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23 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Varys mentiones the word "honour", which was more associated with Jon Arryn rather than Tywin.

Perhaps "honour" had to do with Tywin's concern of how the public would perceive him if he was caught entering the brothel openly

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1 hour ago, The Sleeper said:

Apparently, fifteen years of whore-mongering were not an issue.

Tyrion was mostly at Kings Landing wasn't he? It did appear to be an ongoing issue.

1 hour ago, The Sleeper said:

It doesn't seem that Shae was in anyone's radar until the trial. 

Actually, Tywin knew about Shae after the Battle of the Green Fork, and tells Tyrion not to take her to court. He would have no idea that Tyrion was going to become infatuated with her, so I think he just didn’t like his whoring, seeing it as a weakness.

To be fair, I think it’s a combination of factors. Firstly, he sees it as a weakness. Like drinking too much, gambling or taking heroin. It leaves him and his family exposed, and makes him look like a mess. It’s likely that he would be less on Tyrion’s case about it if he was discreet and didn’t form attachments. I think he just sees the constant whoring as a further example of his son pissing about being the family embarrassment.

Secondly, it’s all mixed up with the tortuous psychological abuse Tywin unleashes on Tyrion regularly. It is a weakness of Tyrion’s, and Tyrion knows it. Particularly as it’s wrapped up with the memory of Tysha. He brings it up constantly to degrade and humiliate Tyrion, and every time he does so, he’s reminding Tyrion of what he did to Tysha and him.

There is a touch of hypocrisy in constantly lecturing your son about whoring, then banging one of his whores after having sentenced him to death.   

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8 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Actually, Tywin knew about Shae after the Battle of the Green Fork, and tells Tyrion not to take her to court. He would have no idea that Tyrion was going to become infatuated with her, so I think he just didn’t like his whoring, seeing it as a weakness. 

At the Green Fork. Not at King's Landing. Tyrion continued to see her up until his arrest after Tywin had returned to King's Landing. You could argue that Tyrion took her with him out of reaction to his father. 

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9 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

Tyrion continued to see her up until his arrest after Tywin had returned to King's Landing

Oh I know (it's quite a big part of the plot!). I just thought you meant no-one was aware of her ever.

10 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

You could argue that Tyrion took her with him out of reaction to his father. 

Quite possibly, though he was quite taken with her very quickly.

 

32 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

Perhaps "honour" had to do with Tywin's concern of how the public would perceive him if he was caught entering the brothel openly

I think that's it. He hated being laughed at, and if he became known for regularly whoring, then it would have made him the butt of jokes.

 

 

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On 8/27/2018 at 1:01 PM, Bernie Mac said:

How am I jumping to conclusions, I have not claimed it is or is not any of the Hands. I am not the one claiming it is anyone.

Well, you claimed that Varys had no reason not to say it was Tywin, or that Tyrion would have connected the dots immediately...

On 8/27/2018 at 1:01 PM, Bernie Mac said:

yes, He had just found out that Tysha was not a whore. 

And that his father fucked Shae.

It could refer to either Tysha or to both Tysha and Shae, but Varys' "now you do" seems to refer to Shae.

On 8/27/2018 at 1:01 PM, Bernie Mac said:

Varys tells Tyrion about a former Hand making the tunnel in ACOK, if Tyrion thought Varys was talking about it being made in Vary's tenure then that only leaves two choices. It is out of character for the intelligent Tyrion to not have came to the same conclusion about Tywin as some in the fandom if it was that obvious that the builder of the tunnel stood a 50% chance of being Tywin. 

The fandom (at least the thread I read) made the assumption only in retrospect, after finding out about Tywin fucking Shae. Unfortunately, I don't remember the reasoning for limiting the time frame to the last couple of decades, but Varys doesn't give any timing, so there is no reason for Tyrion to start thinking about Tywin.

On 8/27/2018 at 1:01 PM, Bernie Mac said:

You are confusing Tyrion  for Cersei.  Tyrion makes no mention in the books of his father not liking sex. 

Not sex. Whores. Though sex as such does come into it a bit:

You are an ill-made, devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning. Men's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine. To teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father's sigil and his father'sbefore him. But neither gods nor men shall ever compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your whorehouse.

Between Tysha and Shae, there was not a single woman with whom Tyrion became emotionally close, so his sexual liaisons are free of "improper" emotions, Tywin is indeed berating him purely on the grounds of having sex with sex workers. Neither an endorsement of the activity nor of the persons providing it.

And while Cersei is not the brightest cookie around, she is not wrong 100% time, either. 

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3 hours ago, Julia H. said:

The bitter irony is that it may well have been Tywin who made Tyrion infatuated with whores by doing what he did to Tysha and by teaching the teenage Tyrion what he had considered true love (his first experience of love) was only business for money. Tywin was reaping what he had sown when he couldn't keep Tyrion in line.

Meh. I gather the infatuation would have developed regardless. Tysha for all Tyrion knew was a whore when he married or just married him for the fact he is a son of great and rich house(I'm not chastizing Tysha if she did-shes a poor homeless orphan whoredom, or finding a family to marry into are her best means of survival; and out of the two the latter is far more preferable), Tyrion being so insecure and wanting to be loved, readily married her anyway. I imagine Tyrion would go back to the only women who'd show romantic interest in him even if feigned regardless. 

 

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I believe that I forgot the most important reason Tywin why raised the whole issue. The one thing Tywin is actually good at is manipulation. This being the first time he gave Tyrion some responsibility and outside his direct supervision he wanted to keep him on the defensive, on his toes and looking over his shoulder. As if he had done something wrong. 

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