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Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn

Tywin didn't have affair for 27 years

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19 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

I believe that I forgot the most important reason Tywin why raised the whole issue. The one thing Tywin is actually good at is manipulation. This being the first time he gave Tyrion some responsibility and outside his direct supervision he wanted to keep him on the defensive, on his toes and looking over his shoulder. As if he had done something wrong. 

Not likely. More likely is that he thought that Tyrion would dress Shae in silk and parade her around the court and flaunt their relation to the whole world. They could make a comical song of it: "The dwarf and his whore".

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3 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

Not likely. More likely is that he thought that Tyrion would dress Shae in silk and parade her around the court and flaunt their relation to the whole world. They could make a comical song of it: "The dwarf and his whore".

Tyrion had been frequenting brothels for fifteen years without something like that happening. Or Tywin worrying about it. Bringing up the issue now is salt on the wound called Tysha and the lesson Tyrion received.

Tywin manipulated the clansmen in about two seconds flat without blinking. I would say he knows better than anyone how to push his son's buttons. He flatters him and berates him in sequence to make Tyrion want to prove himself to Tywin. 

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50 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

Tyrion had been frequenting brothels for fifteen years without something like that happening. Or Tywin worrying about it. Bringing up the issue now is salt on the wound called Tysha and the lesson Tyrion received.

Tywin manipulated the clansmen in about two seconds flat without blinking. I would say he knows better than anyone how to push his son's buttons. He flatters him and berates him in sequence to make Tyrion want to prove himself to Tywin. 

1. Few brothels parade their employees at court. The point is that if Tyrion visits brothels when he's off duty, so to speak, that is different from parading a prostitute at court when he at the same time holds a high office. Very possible its about rubbing some in Tyrion at the same time, though.

2. How is Tywin manipulating the Clansmen saying anything about Tyrion? Now its true that Tyrion has some serious relation issues and a very sad relation with Tywin. Yet at the same time while Tywin does push for Tyrion to add his weight to the family in this critical hour, Tyrion is himself also very interested in proving himself to Tywin. It isn't a one direction street between Tywin and Tyrion.

I mean, you could probably write a long essay on the relation between Tywin and Tyrion alone.

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2 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

1. Few brothels parade their employees at court. The point is that if Tyrion visits brothels when he's off duty, so to speak, that is different from parading a prostitute at court when he at the same time holds a high office. Very possible its about rubbing some in Tyrion at the same time, though.

2. How is Tywin manipulating the Clansmen saying anything about Tyrion? Now its true that Tyrion has some serious relation issues and a very sad relation with Tywin. Yet at the same time while Tywin does push for Tyrion to add his weight to the family in this critical hour, Tyrion is himself also very interested in proving himself to Tywin. It isn't a one direction street between Tywin and Tyrion.

I mean, you could probably write a long essay on the relation between Tywin and Tyrion alone.

  1. I have mentioned at a previous post that image is always a concern for Tywin so that plays a part, true but it did not need to be made such a big deal. It's not like Tyrion would be the first person to keep a bed warmer. He could have given a generic warning to be discreet. 
  2. It is about Tywin being manipulative. During the scene where he sends him to King's Landing, Tywin makes him part of the private council, gives him wine and vents before him. The parting command not to take Shae with him is meant to put Tyrion back in his place. 

I believe Martin himself wrote a very long one. It's called Storm of Swords. 

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We have no reason to doubt that Tyrion is prolific when it comes to whoring, as we hear about it first from him, and we hear about it often from him. And yet, there seems to be a notable difference between Tyrion's reputation coming into the books and the Tyrion we meet, who is not out in the brothels each day going through all the whores in King's Landing.

When he has sex with Shae, it has been "nigh on a year since he'd lain with a woman, since before he had set out for Winterfell in company with his brother and King Robert." Then he spends most of the next two books with Shae. Granted, she is a whore, so it is technically whoring, but he is not out there openly shaming House Lannister.

 

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On 8/28/2018 at 4:21 PM, Ygrain said:

Well, you claimed that Varys had no reason not to say it was Tywin, or that Tyrion would have connected the dots immediately...

You are the one who jumped to a conclusion about the identity of the Hand in question, I have not suggested a culprit or ruled anyone out. 

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And that his father fucked Shae.

occupational hazard. 

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It could refer to either Tysha or to both Tysha and Shae, but Varys' "now you do" seems to refer to Shae.

Now who's jumping to conclusions. 

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The fandom (at least the thread I read) made the assumption only in retrospect, after finding out about Tywin fucking Shae.

in this thread people have used that quote that it must have happened while Varys has been on the council. 

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Unfortunately, I don't remember the reasoning for limiting the time frame to the last couple of decades, but Varys doesn't give any timing, so there is no reason for Tyrion to start thinking about Tywin.

Not sex. Whores. Though sex as such does come into it a bit:

You are an ill-made, devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning. Men's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine. To teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father's sigil and his father'sbefore him. But neither gods nor men shall ever compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your whorehouse.

Are you ignoring the context of the conversation? Tywin has just found out that his son has threatened the lives of his grandsons, are people really shocked why Tywin is pissed? 

 

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Between Tysha and Shae, there was not a single woman with whom Tyrion became emotionally close,

We don't know that, what we know is Tysha was the first and most important and Shae the latest. 

"Is that her name? I confess, I cannot remember the names of all your whores. Who was the one you married as a boy?"

kind of suggests that there was more than one who was a regular

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so his sexual liaisons are free of "improper" emotions, Tywin is indeed berating him purely on the grounds of having sex with sex workers.

No, he is berating him for threatening to hurt his grandchildren. 

I'm not a grandfather but I'm guessing Tywin's anger with Tyrion would be pretty common amongst grandfather's. 

 

On 8/28/2018 at 12:46 PM, Julia H. said:

The bitter irony is that it may well have been Tywin who made Tyrion infatuated with whores by doing what he did to Tysha and by teaching the teenage Tyrion what he had considered true love (his first experience of love) was only business for money. Tywin was reaping what he had sown when he couldn't keep Tyrion in line.

No offense but I think you are jumping to a conclusion based on someone from our society having a proclivity for 'working women' (I'm beginning to hate typing the other job titles).  There is no casual dating amongst nobility in their era and most marriages are not love matches but often like Ned and Cat, nobles who have never met and make the marriage work.  The expectation of love before marriage is going to be low, in that respect Tyrion would be in the same boat as most of his peers. 

It should also be noted that most of the single young male nobles will have been with whores whether they look like Robert, Edmure, Tyrion or Petyr Frey. It is not some disease for a person (though it can be for a society without the correct checks and balances). 

 

Tyrion is not some modern man refusing to look for love and seeking solace in paid companionship but a noble who is disgusted by the nobles who are on offer to him ( Lollys) and is happier living it up as a playboy with women paid to fawn over him and refer to him as a giant. Unfortunately for him he sticks out a hundred miles (not his fault) and enjoys the attention/embarrassing his House (entirely his fault) which only decreases his marriage options year by year.  

 

3 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

Not likely. More likely is that he thought that Tyrion would dress Shae in silk and parade her around the court and flaunt their relation to the whole world. They could make a comical song of it: "The dwarf and his whore".

 

I disagree. Tyrion is being sent to Kings Landing to keep Varys (spymaster), Littlefinger (whoremaster with spies) and Pycelle in line. He is fully aware that Tyrion spending that time in the company of one woman will see him grow fond of her and Tyrion in turn become vulnerable and open to blackmail, like he actually does not once but twice while Varys could have done the same at any moment. 

Tytos put his paramour above his house and his responsibilities, Tywin knew Tyrion would do the same (unfortunately he was not aware the twins were also guilty of this). 

Tyrion sleeping with random whores is not a problem, him falling in love with one during war time was.

 

 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

No offense but I think you are jumping to a conclusion based on someone from our society having a proclivity for 'working women' (I'm beginning to hate typing the other job titles).  There is no casual dating amongst nobility in their era and most marriages are not love matches but often like Ned and Cat, nobles who have never met and make the marriage work.  The expectation of love before marriage is going to be low, in that respect Tyrion would be in the same boat as most of his peers. 

It should also be noted that most of the single young male nobles will have been with whores whether they look like Robert, Edmure, Tyrion or Petyr Frey. It is not some disease for a person (though it can be for a society without the correct checks and balances). 

 

Tyrion is not some modern man refusing to look for love and seeking solace in paid companionship but a noble who is disgusted by the nobles who are on offer to him ( Lollys) and is happier living it up as a playboy with women paid to fawn over him and refer to him as a giant. Unfortunately for him he sticks out a hundred miles (not his fault) and enjoys the attention/embarrassing his House (entirely his fault) which only decreases his marriage options year by year.  

It may be so, but Tyrion does get infatuated with Shae to the point where he seems to be genuinely in love and deludes himself thinking that Shae also loves him. It is also apparent that mentally he has not got over Tysha and on how their brief marriage ended. (He tells the story to Bronn and his reaction makes it clear it is really not a story the average Westerosi would regard as normal.) Also, Tyrion wants affection and he doesn't hope to get any unless it's paid, because of his condition. You are right that marriages in this world are not based on love, but I guess most noblemen just expect their wives to accept them in bed as in life in general, once they have got married, without thinking too much about what a wife's expectations might be, and this is what Tyrion cannot imagine doing because he has too often seen the negative reactions to his body in other people's eyes and he has become too self-conscious.  

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4 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

It may be so, but Tyrion does get infatuated with Shae to the point where he seems to be genuinely in love and deludes himself thinking that Shae also loves him.

He was the same with Tysha, he married her after a week when in reality could not have really known her given he instantly believed Jaime's version of events and could not even tell that she was being gang raped against her wishes, not even when he went last. Infatuation and a willingness to believe the unreal seems a flaw ( a harsh term for it) that existed in Tyrion before the gang rape. 

4 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

 

It is also apparent that mentally he has not got over Tysha and on how their brief marriage ended.

I agree, it was a reprehensible action from Tywin, really fucked up act to do. The lesson it was supposed to have taught Tyrion seems to have had no impact meaning it was all for naught, not that it would excuse the action even it it did teach him something

4 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

Also, Tyrion wants affection and he doesn't hope to get any unless it's paid, because of his condition.

Come on, this probably is the same for many men. Edmure, similar age to Tyrion, is still doing the same, most noble men would rather get their affection from a younger, more attractive partner who does anything they request. 

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/apr/27/race-to-build-world-first-sex-robot

Hundreds of thousands, perhaps even millions of mostly men spend much of their money on fantasy company rather than seeking a reality that might not live up to their expectations, many of those people are nowhere near as ugly as Tyrion.  It's puzzling, but you it happens and I imagine the wealthier you are the easier it is to reject reality for the more expensive fantasy. Tyrion and Tytos are little different in that regard. 

 

4 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

 

You are right that marriages in this world are not based on love, but I guess most noblemen just expect their wives to accept them in bed as in life in general, once they have got married, without thinking too much about what a wife's expectations might be, and this is what Tyrion cannot imagine doing because he has too often seen the negative reactions to his body in other people's eyes and he has become too self-conscious.  

Rich is rich coming from Tyrion considering he is just as judgemental about Lolly and Penny as he imagines the noble women are about him. 

Tyrion's issues are that he was raised a Lannister, Tywin made sure that he would never be treated less than,  taught that he is better than everyone else yet he is also self aware to realize that he, physically, is clearly not. Ultimately that Lannister arrogance comes out in his disdain for the stupid (unless they are beautiful). 

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59 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

I disagree. Tyrion is being sent to Kings Landing to keep Varys (spymaster), Littlefinger (whoremaster with spies) and Pycelle in line. He is fully aware that Tyrion spending that time in the company of one woman will see him grow fond of her and Tyrion in turn become vulnerable and open to blackmail, like he actually does not once but twice while Varys could have done the same at any moment. 

Tytos put his paramour above his house and his responsibilities, Tywin knew Tyrion would do the same (unfortunately he was not aware the twins were also guilty of this). 

Tyrion sleeping with random whores is not a problem, him falling in love with one during war time was.


What is it that you disagree with? I thought I was kind of agree with you.

 

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1 minute ago, LionoftheWest said:


What is it that you disagree with? I thought I was kind of agree with you.

Just that Tyrion would flaunt it, he's not that clueless. 

But if your point was that it would be soon found out and used against him, and now that I read it again it seems that was what you were saying, then my mistake.

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5 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

1) He was the same with Tysha, he married her after a week when in reality could not have really known her given he instantly believed Jaime's version of events and could not even tell that she was being gang raped against her wishes, not even when he went last. Infatuation and a willingness to believe the unreal seems a flaw ( a harsh term for it) that existed in Tyrion before the gang rape.

2) I agree, it was a reprehensible action from Tywin, really fucked up act to do. The lesson it was supposed to have taught Tyrion seems to have had no impact meaning it was all for naught, not that it would excuse the action even it it did teach him something

1) Tyrion was 13 when his marriage with Tysha happened. He is an adult now. He should have matured, but in this respect he hasn't. I think he could have matured if his father had had a more humane approach to his son's mistake. 

2) In my opinion, the "lesson" had a great impact on Tyrion though not in the way Tywin probably intended. 

5 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Come on, this probably is the same for many men. Edmure, similar age to Tyrion, is still doing the same, most noble men would rather get their affection from a younger, more attractive partner who does anything they request. 

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/apr/27/race-to-build-world-first-sex-robot

Hundreds of thousands, perhaps even millions of mostly men spend much of their money on fantasy company rather than seeking a reality that might not live up to their expectations, many of those people are nowhere near as ugly as Tyrion.  It's puzzling, but you it happens and I imagine the wealthier you are the easier it is to reject reality for the more expensive fantasy. Tyrion and Tytos are little different in that regard. 

Perhaps. But I still think Tyrion has a bit more obvious reason to want to reject reality than most men (though any number of other men can be insecure as well, of course).

5 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

Rich is rich coming from Tyrion considering he is just as judgemental about Lolly and Penny as he imagines the noble women are about him. 

I  don't think he just imagines that. 

5 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Tyrion's issues are that he was raised a Lannister, Tywin made sure that he would never be treated less than,  taught that he is better than everyone else yet he is also self aware to realize that he, physically, is clearly not. Ultimately that Lannister arrogance comes out in his disdain for the stupid (unless they are beautiful). 

I can agree with this. 

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2 hours ago, Julia H. said:

1) Tyrion was 13 when his marriage with Tysha happened. He is an adult now. He should have matured, but in this respect he hasn't. I think he could have matured if his father had had a more humane approach to his son's mistake. 

Agreed. PTSD in developing humans (teens and children) tends to bring about an arrested development wherein they are unable to mature past that point in their life for some or all traits until they overcome their PTSD. Tyrion could be arrested at 13 until he figures out where whores go, or perhaps the realization that Tysha was not a whore may have let him overcome it a bit. We shall see.

 

The idea of Tywin's perceived celibacy since Joanna's death brings to my mind his inheritance and heir as well. He seemingly never meant Tyrion to be his heir and might not have any plan for one outside of a younger child of Cersei's or convincing Jaime and Joffrey/Robert to let Jaime resign the Kingsguard. Of course, he could always let Kevan and his children take over Casterly Rock, but that doesn't seem like Tywin either.

So having said that, at this point in time, Jaime has refused to resign the Kingsguard, he is about to put Tyrion to death, Myrcella is betrothed to a Martell, Tommen is king, and Cersei has refused to marry a 2nd time. Mayhaps Tywin feels the only way to get an heir would be to marry a 2nd time, himself, and is making sure the plumbing still works.

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